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Another Post about Rogues.
toporok
Member Posts: 27 Arc User
Let me start off by saying I have read every thread and post on the subject of rogue pvp. I have spend over 300k astral diamonds respeccing in hopes of a survivable path against rogues there currently is none when I am getting 21k crits against me in full pvp gear, these are my stats 26,925 health,2315 defense, 1220 tenacity. The supporters of the grossly overpowered rogue will tell me to learn to dodge, well that would mean I am dodging the whole game, fun to just run around and dodge. The rogue pvp design is ruining what could be a great game.
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they wont have 2 different balance on 2 different platforms.
every mod will break a class or two, the point is always adapt and wait the next mod..where you will have to adapt again vs a new enemy.
just saying, our mod 6 [Dont know when dont know how for you xbox players] will see CWs and Paladins dominant.
With your current balance, TRs can be handled by HRs.
<Removed By Poster>
But the problem is this game has been out for a year and the PC is ahead of the version the XBox is currently in so what makes you think anything will be different on the XBox than what it is on the PC? Just think about it, they will release the next mods and things will change but as of right now, complaining on the forums repeatedly will get you absolutely nowhere. I'm sorry to be so blunt but thread after thread of the same whiny *** post about TRs and nothing has changed, what makes you think 1 more thread will change them?
Ur seen as a very "pro tr guy" as in from what ive seen you always support on the side of the TR, which isnt wrong it is your class and you will defend it. Though u bring up a good point in these threads not helping what-so-ever, comments like this also dont help. When you see a topic like this and you think "wow another one of these?!" should just ignore it if it is that much of a bother.
Now on topic,
What class are you? I know for me on my HR i still am crit for 18-20k lashing blades (cause hard to hit buttons) even with 942 tenacity, but i can usually dodge the initial burst, and as you said it would be almost dodging the whole game, but you just need to be aware of whats around. Rogue stealth lasts from what 6-8 seconds and they get one encounter, so look for someone to disappear from your screen and be actively moving around dodging every so often, maybe u get lucky maybe he does, if you do, melt him, if not use team speak and call out the rogue and have your team turn on him. Gotta just learn how to deal with them, because as Fukiiyu had somewhat rudely said, there have been countless threads on this on both pc and xbox, it doesnt change no matter what, so you need to adapt to what is going on, if that means using abilities to only face rogues, so be it.
Aldren Boweing - 60 HR
Divine 60 Spellstorm Control Wizard
twitch.tv/Divine1982
You have higher defense and Tenacity than I do..and I have never been hit harder than 19k..and only reason I took that much is because I got caught with my pants down riding my mount(you take 100%dmg while mounted). It is very, very rare that I ever take more than a 10k hit at the highest.
I can also tell you that the game "is" balanced currently. When Mod 6 comes to Xbox, TR's...the skilled ones, are going to be even more deadly, as they have tweaked numerous TR encounters. I'm not sure why people continue saying that a nerf is coming for TR's, as that is not the case. The only people that feel TR's are overpowered are the ones who do not understand the class fully, or their own.
The gear gap/GS is a big factor in PvP. A TR with a standard Vorpal and Exec build is going to hit extremely hard. But, so will any other class with a Vorpal and good ArP. Wait till you see a GF crit you for 40k, or a CW blow you up in literally 2 seconds, or a GWF hit you for 50k. Yes, that happens, and no one complains, because given the PvP factors;buffs, debuffs, gear etc, any class can hit hard, and experienced players understand that. They don't ask for nerfs, because they are not needed.
As it stands right now, everyday I play PvP I am running into better and better players. That's because people are getting better gear, and gaining knowledge in the game.
What people seem to forget is they come to the Forums and see a couple threads saying TR's are OP, and they automatically think the entire community agrees with them. I guarantee you, less than half of the population of Xbox one NW visits the forums. Point being, the actual # of people who are having problems with TR's to the point of calling them OP, is very very small.
People have called me biased because I play a TR. I've played TR, HR, GWF and SW at the highest lvl of end game PvP, and never once came to the conclusion any one class is OP.
I constantly hear "oh, TR's are easy mode, throw some points in and go slaughter entire teams". Please....stop saying that. It couldn't be further from the truth. You don't just roll a TR and get 30+ kills in PvP. The TR's that are doing that "are" skilled and built well. No class in this game is Hard to play. But it takes player skill, to excel into the Elite lvl in EVERY class.
Vid of my HR against very unskilled Players --- Not trying at all and dominating, should we nerf HRs?
https://youtu.be/dt6RvG0Q7SE
Here is a vid of my TR in a very close match against appropriately geared players. Notice how I'm not "one shotting" anyone.
https://youtu.be/6iEnPym_BiE
Here is another vid of my lesser geared TR
https://youtu.be/K7XzXyGUS0Q
And another vid of my MM HR- Notice how I'm also not being one shot by TR's..
https://youtu.be/NDy5vko4D9A
I am by no means the best at any class. I do however understand all the class mechanics and am very good about knowing which encounters/abilities to avoid when possible.
You're also severely downplaying the amount of people that think Rogues are Op. Type in Neverwinter in Twitter, view all tweets, and count how many people are complaining about TR's. I'll give you a hint, it's a lot. So it's not just the forums. And every single day I do pvp there is always a hand full of players complaint about Op TR's in zone chat WHILE pvping.
And I did just that, rolled a TR and went 24-3 in my first high lvl pvp match.
Just speaking on what I see being a hardcore pvp player, Albeit I can not play for the next two weeks due to traveling for work.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?894511-Mod-6-CW
Divine 60 Spellstorm Control Wizard
twitch.tv/Divine1982
What they have done is lower the amount of time in Stealth, while attacking. People complained about 100% stealthed TRs and for good reason, so they reduced it. What they also did, is now give us 100% crit chance while in stealth. As well as increase the damage on many encounters. It will be more difficult for Perma stealth TR's to maintain stealth and deal damage, but not impossible. Executioner TR's are going to hit much much harder now. As well as they reduced the % stamina goes down when dodge rolling, and increased the distance 50% more. You think a good TR dodges a lot now, wait till mod 6. I for one cannot wait. All of my encounters will cause significantly more damage in stealth, as well as Dazing Strike will be easier to hit targets, as well as they increased the daze to 5 seconds, up from 3. Deft strike damage is increased 15%. The only downfall is they reduced First Strike dmg, and that is supplemented by the increase of overall damage, increased crit sev on LB, and 100% crit while in stealth.
These are all good things :cool:
We haven’t really been happy with the position the Rogue has been in for quite a while now, so we wanted to take a long hard look at their mechanics and adjust some of them to make a more rewarding experience and create some distinct play styles. To that end we have made a lot of power tweaks, adjusted Stealth, and created 3 brand new feat trees.
Overview
Before we talk about the other changes, let’s talk about the big one. Perma-stealth is going to get much harder to play. We don’t really like the gameplay of “invisible attacker dealing steady damage” because the cases for counterplay are limited and require more skill to fight against than we feel is appropriate. Therefore we made two major changes to stealth. Firstly it will drain a little bit when you attack from stealth. To compensate for this you will get 100% critical chance while stealthed. We want stealth in Neverwinter to move towards a quick burst in power that rewards smart play to confuse foes, rather than an effect you can keep up indefinitely.
Now, Feat Trees. Rogue feat trees were fairly disjointed before, with mostly lackluster capstones. Given that we tore them out and rebuilt them with unique goals in mind. Saboteur will be focused on rebuilding stealth and striking foes from behind. Scoundrel will have access to controls and stuns (including a powerful daze that can lock a foe down) while being a very durable fighter. Executioner is focused on using a golden opportunity to deal an incredible amount of spike damage.
Without further ado, let’s look at the changes.
Powers
•Stealth: Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack.
•Stealth: Now also grants 100% Critical Chance in addition to Combat Advantage.
•First Strike: Damage bonus increased to 33% per rank (up from 5% per rank).
•Whirlwind of Blades: No longer ignores Damage Resistance and Immunity and can be Deflected.
•Whirlwind of Blades: Now increases your Power by 20% per target hit (up from 10%).
•Courage Breaker: Now increases power by 25% (up from 10%).
•Courage Breaker: Damage increased by roughly 15%.
•Deft Strike: Damage increased by roughly 15%.
•Lashing Blade: Stealth: Now strikes with 50% increased Critical Severity.
•Blitz: Damage increased by roughly 20%.
•Blitz: Maximum number of targets increased to 7 (up from 5).
•Path of the Blade: Duration increased to 20 seconds (up from 10).
•Path of the Blade: Damage reduced by roughly 20%.
•Path of the Blade: Tooltip now displays the total damage this power will deal, rather than how much it deals each tick.
•Impact Shot: Base Damage increased by roughly 15%.
•Shadow Strike: Stealth: Daze increased to 4 seconds (up from 3).
•Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks on players.
•Wicked Reminder: Maximum stacks reduced to 3.
•Wicked Reminder: Now reduces the target's defenses by 7% per stack (up from 4%).
•Wicked Reminder: Now has 3 charges and 1 charge is refilled every 5 seconds.
•Wicked Reminder: Damage increased by roughly 10%.
Paragon Paths
•Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: Now lasts 15 seconds (up from 7.5).
•Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: Damage reduced by roughly 10%.
•Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Now correctly breaks CC on the teleport.
•Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Initial damage increased by roughly 20%.
•Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Follow up damage increased by 50%.
•Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Tooltip now lists the total damage this power does, instead of the damage the initial throw will do.
•Whisperknife: Hateful Knives: Combat Advantage time increased to 6 seconds base (up from 3).
•Whisperknife: Hateful Knives: Damage increased by roughly 50%.
•WhisperKnife: Razor Action: This power has had its damage increased by roughly 100%. The Damage over Time component tied to Seething Knives now only triggers when the player has points in Seething Knives.
•Master Infiltrator: Gloaming Cut: Does not drain Stealth Meter when used from Stealth.
•Master Infiltrator: Gloaming Cut: Now deals up to 25% more damage as the target's HP diminishes (up from 20%). This effect is increased by 25% per rank (up from 5%).
•Master Infiltrator: Impossible to Catch: Stealth: This power no longer makes you immune to all damage but now also increases your damage resistance by 50%.
•Master Infiltrator: Shocking Execution: No longer ignores Damage Immunity effects. It still ignores all sources of damage resistance and cannot be deflected.
When we say dodge it means when you see the TR go stealth and you're a squishy class that means start doing whatever your dodge ability is. Teleport or whatever it is you use. TR's might be OP but the only classes we can really go after are CW's and SW's because Clerics, Tanks, and GWF's seem to take no dmg and half the time we target hunters they dodge perfectly so we do no dmg to them. Then they root us and pwn our face.
An dear lord those changes imo make us better lol
Aside from that and more on topic, rogues are the class that looms crazy good atm BC most ppl don't have a lot of pvp gear and are in the arena with t2 and 25khp or 6k GS and expect to do well, hell a rogue may one shot u with 6k Gs but I could most likely kill a team of 5 by myself on an hr. Ppl just see the big numbers n are afraid of it when in reality u stand no chance against other classes of higher GS, but u can see them and its over 2 abilities not 1. My 2 cents
Aldren Boweing - 60 HR
I just had to say something after seeing countless threads on the same topic then come to find a thread titled, "Another Post about Rogues" lol I just lost it... Sorry to the OP.
Anywho...
You think a sensible conclusion for this is that the TR that hit you recently while you had better gear and got hit harder was actually better geared than the TR earlier when you had bad gear?
I don't use it and I know most of the Rogues in Rekt don't use it but I will admit there are a couple that do and I'm not going to tell them how to play their characters so we'll just have to wait until balance changes are made in later mods...
That's grrrreat and it would mean even more if this was a TDM mode but even if you went 50-0 you could still lose the match. To my understanding TRs are meant to be killing machines and more so single target killing machines. Catching players in transition from node to node alone the TR will generally win.. It's not really all about the kills.. Killing other players does create a disadvantage for the enemy team but it won't necessarily win your team the game if you have a high K/D ratio..
My post was in reply to what munkey said about not being about to just roll a TR and put up numbers like that, but good job at reading though. Oh and I was in first in total points as well.
That's cool and all but who cares about your numbers? The way the mode is played your kills don't mean <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and even if you put up "big numbers" who cares? If you're playing Domination the way it's suppose to be played you could possibly have the highest score in the match with the least kills and most deaths.
Okay obviously you're simple so let's try this one more time. Once again, Me posting my numbers was based on what munkey said about not being able to roll a TR and put up the numbers I posted. Me posting those numbers are also not a reflection on how I play pvp as I don't even use the TR I made. I just wanted to confirm how easy it was to play as a rogue, which I did.
You're acting as if I just blindly posted this numbers to brag or something. I could care less what kind of numbers I put up in terms of k/d, especially when playing a rogue.
Okay, so he said you don't get 30+ kills just rolling a TR UNLESS you "are" skilled and built well. He also said, it takes player skill to excel. Did you see how he gave credit to the actual good players and not just the "class" itself.
Okay, so you go 24-3 with a class that is meant to do a lot of killing and you are a self pro-claimed "hardcore pvp player"... Hmm I guess this directly relates to Alysin's statement that a skilled player WILL put up those numbers. I wouldn't go as far as saying, "Well, roll a TR and you are GUARANTEED to get numbers like that" it will actually take "some skill" whether you think it's a lot or not, there is still skill involved.
Just because you did "good" as a Rogue, saying you got 24/3 doesn't prove a single thing about how "easy it is to play a rogue"... There are a lot of factors involved and who's to say you weren't in a pre-made against a PUG of new players? You claim to be a "hardcore pvp'er" well then you better post amazing numbers because you're so Uber Pro, lmao what a joke.
Finally the moron decided to actually read. Bravo.
And yes, there is skill involved in playing a TR, just very minimal.
And I'm not gonna have a debate about rogues with you as you're so clearly up your rogues ***. You cry more about rogues not being op than other classes complaining they are. Munkey actually has compelling points when he comments, you pretty much make up different variables as to why x happened rather than accept someone's experience as is. You're not very knowledgable nor do you seem to know very much about this game. Please do not quote me again unless you have something actually worth debating about.
I don't score the highest on my team, but I do secure the win for us by back capping. When I hold down the back cap against 2, 3, sometimes 4 people, it gets tricky. There is skill involved in knowing how to engage your targets and prioritize your threats, all the while dodging multiple targets. Did I mention you do all of this without ever leaving to cap point? If you TR by trolling people with the random 1 shots, you aren't doing it right. Premades will NEVER accept you.
That's just my 2 copper.
Fappy Gilmore- Rekt
lol you say that as if only TR's do that. Any class can do that as well, just not as effortlessly as a TR. Which is where my statement of it taking less skill to play a TR in pvp as, idk, a SW? This is just all my own opinion from actually playing a TR. No one has to agree with it but I can only comment on my own experiences.
And I applaud you for playing domination as it should be played. And I know how you feel as I usually end up being the one that holds down the back spot as the TR's on my team always just want to run around killing everything, completely ignoring the objective of the game.
You are correct, anyone can back cap and hold it. I have done it many times on my combat HR back in the mod 4 days of PC. TR do it better because that is what they are supposed to do in pvp. Their sole purpose is to back cap and hold it against all odds. In a true premade situation (high end pvp), other classes handle mid and the home base better due to the way they work (tankiness, heals, mass cc). Give xbox a little bit and all the TR will figure out what time it is. You will see more and more Sabateur perma stealth. Ask any of the competitive PVP TR on PC.
There seems to be a large difference in opinion on what Skill actually is. So I am going to make an effort to explain what skill means, pertaining to the TR class in my opinion.
I am speaking in general terms also, not talking to anyone in particular so take what I say with a grain of salt as again, it is just my opinion.
When most people talk about skill, or lack their of with the TR class, they continually bring up the amount of kills a TR gets. If a TR gets 15-2 in a match, everyone says the class is OP and easy mode. Or hey, my first match in 60 PvP I was 20+ kills and 3 deaths. This class is so easy to play and everyone who picks the TR are just silly Hippsters with no skill.
My argument is, that is completely untrue. Anyone, and every class..has the capability to reach high kill numbers with minimal deaths. Pick any DPS class and pair them with a good pocket healer and you have a great K/D ratio.
I do not base skill, or lack of skill, on one single bad, or good match. I base player skill on consistency. Sure, you got 21 kills this match...what about the next 20? As well as Kills mean absolutely nothing in NW, as the matches are Domination, and controlling/capping/contending points is the most important.
A good TR is going to constantly, and efficiently cap/contest/capture your home node. What you have to remember is by doing this, the TR is generally alone, with help far away on 2(middle node). The amount of 1vs2, 1vs3, 1 vs4 on the home node is constant. That being said, the TR is generally always fighting more than 1 player. A random unskilled player with no thought in his build, is going to get crushed every single time on 1 vs 1+ fights. Even if all the players involved are equally less skilled/geared, 2 bad dps on 1 bad TR is going to end up in death of the TR, or at the very least chase him off the point, thus recapping the home node and making the TR fail on his job of contesting/capturing/controlling the point.
A skilled TR will use the terrain to his advantage, and trick his opponents by making them assume something that is not. A skilled TR will be able to have back to back fights on the enemy nodes, killing enemies, and keeping the node in contention, or fully capped. Most players assume that when they see a TR jump away or leave the node with 1, to 2 bubbles of health, they are running away and feel they have won, and decide to mount up. I cant tell you how many players I have killed in this exact scenario. A skilled TR is very capable of staying alive with minimal health, continuing to kill and capture/contest/defend a node.
Again, I refer to consistency when talking about player skill, or lack of skill. Skilled TR's, whether they are in a premade match with equally geared players, or new players with little experience, will constantly be at the top of the end match leader boards because of Capping points and getting kills when its important. To me, a skilled TR is someone who can consistently maintain a 8-12 KD. That means 8 to 12 kills, per one death. Yes, people may have the match of the day and they played awesome, or the other players were bad, or blah blah it really doesn't matter. A TR that can consistently reach the top of the scoreboard in every match, win or lose, and maintain that K/D ratio is someone in my opinion that is very skilled. I have not met many of them, because it is very difficult to achieve those numbers on a consistent basis.
By no means do I feel that I am the best TR, nor do I speak as if I am. There is always someone better, and only a fool would think otherwise. What I do have however, is consistency. Not because I go for kills, the kills are just a bonus. If anyone recognizes they have played with me, they will absolutely say that I was a back capping Champion...because that is what I pride myself on. I will always, in every single match, be capping your home point. Here are a few examples of matches I played in a 2 hour period. Don't worry about the kills, look at the overall score. Remember, kills are worth +50, capping nodes is worth +300. Also, take a look at the other TR's in the match. The scores are terrible, and no where near OP as everyone likes to say.
Skill is a huge factor in this game. A giant factor in this game.
Here's a cute little response from someone that obviously feels like he has been cheated. Makes me laugh inside.
Again.. I contribute consistency to Skill, not how many kills you got on your best match.
Any class can back cap, or use common sense to turn a fight in their favor. The big difference is the tools a TR has at their disposal compared to other classes when doing this.
I am afraid you have missed the point in my response.
Any class can backcap, that is not the point of discussion and I agree with you. The point was people saying it's easy to top the leaderboards as a TR. I've done my best to provide proof that is not the case. With the TR, or any other class. Staying at the top of the leaderboards consistently is done by skill, not luck, or chosen class..pure player skill. If we cant agree on that I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Cheers!
The point being made is that TRs have a significantly easier time scoring points when they can take down a target in a few hits and score an additional 50 points. Even more so if you're attacking a tower and get a Tower Rush bonus, or a Defender bonus after capping. Other classes don't get those kills with the same ease as TRs, and thus don't score those points.
Truth be told, many points have been taken from other players because of a TR's incredible damage output. You'll be fighting another player when suddenly a rogue appears and drops them from stealth. What would have been 50 points for the other player now turns into 25 and the rogue nets the 50.
So when you're talking about topping the leaderboards, capping points, in the larger frame of things, plays a relatively small part in comparison to the other events that add points to your overall score.
^This.
And those screenshots are numbers I see TR's doing on a regular basis. And I'm not reading that post.
More tools at your disposal=less skill required.
Aldren Boweing - 60 HR