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No love for Dem Clerics
rapier89
Member Posts: 42
What is it with all the people in dungeons trying to tell clerics how to play lol.there is only like a grand total of 5 of us. You would think people would be a little more appreciative of us joining a group especially to run epics. In the past 4 epic dungeons ive run i have been top in most damage dealt usually upward of 5 million damage.And i still keep my people alive. Earlier today i had a guy im thinkin he was a rouge actually get mad over me using the knockback and heal skill because i guess he had to run an extra 10 feet to get his kill.Are kids these days so concerned about how many kills they get that they arent worried about wiping the group cause they are complaining about healers using knockbacks as crowd controls and secondary heals? If im doing almost double damage of most of the group and still keeping everyone up then why complain?Do they not realize if they make the healer mad then they wont get healed? I actually went out of my way the rest of the fight to make sure he had to heal himself.has anyone else had this problem lately.seems to have gotten worse in the last couple days since the neverending stream of rouges and cw's have hit lvl 60.no offense to casters but every class is different so why tell someone how to play their class.
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You have to consider the reason you are on top of DPS might be because you are the only one able to hit the mobs because they keep being flung away from all the melee fighters. This is VERY poor manners in dungeon runs.
I get pissed at CWs all the time because I'll have a 3x Empowered Daunting Light about to lay waste to a dude, only for him to the flung away at the last second. Now I've wasted a full empowerment.
Imagine someone doing that to you, every 10 seconds or so.
We need more people to roll up a Cleric and try it in a dungeon or two. It's alot of work to watch the battle and all the health bars, and no one die. I respect a good healer now I have played one.
Find me on XBL to get an interview to join the guild.
Definitely this. I tell a group how my healing works (aoe, stay together kind of chat) and that's about it.
Its not really about the heal in general with the knockback. Our main heal at level 60 has what a 20 second cooldown or something like that if you count animations and such and then we have the second form of that skill wich is the insta heal but other than that all we have really is the crowd control knock back to rely on regularly. Now assuming you actually get a tank in a group then that means that the usually make up is mostly rouges and wizards.Asuming they are like the other 9 billion they will more than likely run in before the tank and pull all the adds onto them and then it falls to the tank or cleric to cc the adds back from the group to avoid a wipe. All while having to heal/damage enemies to avoid excessively long fights. If im on top its cause i earned it by contsantly changing between healer/dps/off tank. The knockback isnt even that strong.So thats not where the damage comes from, I have buffs and debuffs and dots to thank for that that prolly help me do like 400% damage over all.My problem is with the 80% that play this game on xbox one that have never played mmo's before and as such cant understand when people tell them they are wrong or to stay together or wait for the tank. Common sense will tell you if you are squishy best try to avoid aggro.Or thats what i would hope anyway. To make it worse when they die because they ran 600 meters away from the healer then they blame the healer or tank and initiate a vote to kick because the are incapable of understanding why it happened. Its just nonsense in my opinion. If they run into a group of 40 adds and start to die so i have to dash and bust a knockback to heal and save them how should i be at fault. Especially since no one uses a cc against a single enemy or when the arent being swarmed buy trash mobs. But again this is just my thoughts on the matter.
i just hate to punish the good ones because of the bad. Thats what bothers me most. My first toon was a hunter ranger so i know how horrible it is to be in a group with no cleric. Might look into getting into a good dungeon/pvp guild. Figure thats my best bet. anyone know of any.Have not pvp'd in this game yet but i look forward to trying.
Then honestly, you are doing it wrong, and making it harder for the group. Number one, cool downs are for empowered casting. Most of your healing should be in divine mode, where there are no cool downs. And generally if you are tying up your hot bar with one dedicated big heal, you are more then likely over healing.
Retire Sunburst, for a spell with more utility. Divine Glow is far better option, It heals, buffs the parties damage, debuffs the targets damage resistance, and provides direct damage, all in a single cast. And wont scatter the mobs to high hell in the process. If you want something easier to target, a good fall back is Searing Light. In divine mode it heals all friendlies around the target for half its damage. Toss out a few of those in divine mode and you can easily keep your front line healed, without even really thinking about healing.
If you feel you need more direct healing, you are often better off boosting the groups resistance instead. Astral Shield will do far better for the group over all then anything Healing word, Sunburst, or Bastion of Health can do. Because depending on your build, you are most likely already proc'ing passive HoT effects (Virtuous) or proc'ing direct heals like Gift of Faith (Faithful). So in most cases, you are already healing passively so providing direct damage resistance is far more valuable then over healing and tossing the mobs around.
Ive played a Cleric for close to 2 years now, and there is not one single legit reason to EVER toss the mobs away from your melee's. Its not needed, and its not helpful.
I can think of a reason,like when some idiot pulls way to many mobs by running around looting and then brings those back to the tank who is getting overwhelmed or afk for a sec or worse the squishes, while the casters try to spot the real threat in the jumble of trash.It may not work for your play style but it fits mine just fine and has saved both me and my group in multiple situations . Every one has their own play style in mmo's and some of us like to do our own build and not fall under the archetypes of most cookie cutter specs. This thread never asked what specs were or how people chose to play but instead if they had ran into any of the COD children who were try to play not only their class but tell someone else how to play their own. Also in response to tieing up the hot bar, xbox users dont get a hotbar.we have 3 skills in total.Unless you count secondary functions such divine mode wich is the same skills just different function.
Then stop playing with bad players. Outside of using it to throw mobs over edges, which you might as well just leave to the CW(s), it should never be on your bar.
My typical encounter loadout while grouped is Astral Shield, Divine Glow and Break the Spirit. At times Searing Light, Forgemaster's Flame, Bastion or Exaltation might get swapped in but 99% of the time those 3 powers are what I roll with since they're the best setup.
As sockmunkey, who both understands and plays clerics extremely well, said mitigation is the key to a cleric. There is no need for burst heals if you're doing your job properly.
PC is the exact same; 3 encounters, 2 at-wills, 2 dailies and tab mode(which would be your RB on xbox)
As previously stated how would it be fair to punish the rest of the group who does everything right. And since how the majority of the players who are squishy pull aggro and then run around and slowly die enstead of letting the tank do his job then why wouldnt i use a burst heal with an HOT on the tank so he doesnt die while i tend to the others that are in 3 different corners of the map because even though i typed it out and said it in voice chat, they still cant seem to understand i cant heal them across the map.IF they weren't more worried about burning down the boss than they are about the 90 adds that spawn everytime their health drops below a certain thresh hold then maybe it would go alot easier. Which brings me back to the original point that 90 percent of the time this has happened the characters have all been rouges, im certainly not saying all rouges are like this but the majority that i have met are.
If i can go an entire epic dungeon without the party dieing in my current set up(player stupidity aside) then what reason have i got to change it because you say a certain skill is better for you and as such i should use it.Ive met other clerics using the skills you mentioned in the 5 pvp matches i have played so far and if they go with a kd ratio way into the negative and they still cant keep their party up or win the match then in my eyes those skills are useless to me and it goes the same in pve. But that is just my opinion on how i play my class, you are entitled to your opinion as is sockmunkey but just because something works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone, if it did their would be no need for a skill tree.If im swarmed by enemies because someone isn't doing their job then why wouldn't i want a way out of it in order to keep my party up.Which is why for the time being i will keep a knockback in my hotbar or unless i find something better latter on down the road. On a different note i do think i few more people need to roll tanks cause as in its current state they are in the same boat as clerics on xbox one and in the time i been playing i have seen at least 30 dps toons to every cleric or tank.
But back on topic i have not encountered that issue as i think most parties are just happy to be out of queue and running epics .. atm we do have it easy and personally have never waited longer than 20 seconds to join.
but i play to keep people alive not be top dps =/ suppose it depends on what you want to do as a DC.
Exactly the point i was trying to get across.Everyone has the set of skills they like the best as they work for there play style.If i like knock back I'll run knock back. If someone else likes something different then good for them. As a rule no one should ever have the right to tell some one what is best for them personally,especially in a video game that potentially hundreds of thousands play and all with different likes and dislikes.
In case you missed it, that was satire. When you are in a group of other people, they do have the right to tell you that your style of play is negatively impacting them. And they do have the right to kick you from the team if your play style is incompatible with them. Something to keep in mind when you are proudly screaming about how you'll do what's fun for you, regardless of how it impacts the other 4 people in the group.
Oxymoronic thinking... (and this comment is directed generally, not specifically to the person I quote above)
You say my play style negatively impacts you, I say your play style negatively impacts me: who's right? (It's a rhetorical question).
And there is a difference of "negative impact", "neutral impact', and "positive impact". If I "impact" you in a positive or neutral way you have no right to tell me how to play. If I impact you in a negative way then you most certainly should make that known, but you still have no right to tell me how to play. Which leaves it to me to either make adjustments to stop negatively impacting you or then (and only then) you have a right to eject me.
As for things like Sunburst: I keep it slotted 100% of the time. If I use it once and you eject me you are wrong. If I use it once and it affects your play negatively then you should let me know; then I have now been warned. If I repeat the negativity then eject is warranted. But never eject someone just because they have a particular Daily or Encounter slotted. That's selfish elitism jerkery asshattedness on your part.
I know how to use Sunburst properly in co-op play: always in divine mode, sometimes in empowered mode and sometimes in standard mode. As with most classes some Encounters and Dailies should be used in a tactical way; when it benefits everyone together. (For instance: I'll use standard sunburst to knock trash mobs toward the GF or GWF to help pool them to within his reach). Is that reason to eject me?
The problem isn't with powers a player has slotted the problem is when players don't know how to push their class to it's maximum potential in benefiting everyone. Too many PUG players are still in the "solo" mindset (like 90% of them) when they PUG. That is where these problems come from. And with that said I refer to the first line in my signature and mean every word of it.
And as for co-op play: if you eject me because I have and use a particular Encounter or Daily they way *I* prefer and not the way *you* prefer then that's perfectly fine, it's no skin off my nose and I couldn't care any less. But do know it's your loss if you do.
1. Express your basic expectations of grouping behavior. Sealing and Shielding Behaviors. (Who and what gets what and when)
2. Most Heals should be using Divines (Divine Glow, Bastion, Word, others). Instant and Bigger, no cooldown, aside from rebuilding your divine meter.
... 2a. Divine Sunburst X4 combo Knockback Dot/Heal is nice in PvP and solo. I agree it has a time and a place in grouping, though most the time, it is not necessary.
... 2b. Empowered Healing is pimp too, but has a cooldown, use at your discretion/tactical need.
3. Astral Seal the Main or Off Tank targets. Control the targeting. Sealing mobs not being actively killed is a waste of effort. Some leeway on targeting the next mob to be killed, of course.
4. Whiny players or individuals who wish to do individual things instead of being part of the group can be cleaved from the herd and left in the wilderness to die.
5. If the members haven't learned by lvl 60, and you do not wish to teach them, then you can leave the group and find love elsewhere.
-Dogmeat
But alas this thread has went exactly were I didnt want it to go, which was people saying they have a right to tell people how to play their game.Cause after all,if no one can have fun playing their own build for a class then what is the point of playing that class/game.And the other sarcastic post just didnt make much sense.As they way i play only adds to the team not take away.But i suppose you have the right to voice your opinion even though it was done negatively and not to anyone's benefit. Just because you like a skill or dont like a skill for that matter gives you no right to say that that skill isn't valuable to someone else. If eveyone in an mmo had exactly the same build or what most call cookie cutter builds then the fun of the game is gone and it winds up being an mmo that had so much potential but ultimately fails to rach its goal. An example of this would have been age of conan. That game was in my opinion the best mmo to ever be released.
Or at least it was till about 8 months in when every new character that was created was usually a tempest of set just because if you feated a certain way then you could one shot everyone that got within melee range without even attacking.Cookie cutter builds ruin games and take away the spirit of what mmorpgs were suppose to be.If we all ran what you seem to think is a super L33T build then all form of self expression and individuality is taken away from the players and we would be playing COD with a new skin and swords and shields instead of guns.So tell me sockmunkey in all your infinite wisdom about the cleric class, what fun would this be. Better yet maybe we should all use the same dye on our clothes or all role the same race with exactly the same features, because everyone loves being exactly the same as everyone else.
As long as someone is doing their job then i see no problem with what they have slotted in their hotbar. As long as a healer still heals, or a dps class can dps or as long as a guardian tanks then who cares what they have slotted or how they use it as long as it works for them and the group and the end goal is accomplished.This seems to be what you don't understand.Not everyone wants to be exactly like everyone else.I could care less how people play their game as long as their not being a ****** to anyone else intentionally.
And for that simple complaint your highly mature reaction was to refuse to heal him.
I'm not sure how you didn't expect that to NOT provoke a reaction. Put simply, you came off as a complete tool.
When honest suggestions where offered, to help you not come off so self centered. You reacted with the typical "You cant tell me how to play" And that you were going to continue to knock, because knocking was fun.
No one can tell you how to play, but there is nothing wrong with suggesting other options. Or having group members complain when a power or action isn't meshing well with the groups play style. And if you arn't compatible with the group, the group will fix the problem, healer or not.
So good on you for changing your stance, had you started off with this newer mindset of using knocks when needed only. You might of gotten a more welcome response. Because, try as you like to make it about cookie cutter builds. Its simply about doing whats best for the team. And more often then not, that rarely involves scattering the mobs away from the melee's. Its pretty simple really.
I dont ever recall saying i used it continuously, simply that i had used it and a rouge got mad. and yes that same ****** of a rouge continued to complain about the entire group every time we stopped to open a chest or anything else for that matter. So the general consensus of the group was the he was a ******.I wasn't gonna follow him around like a child and heal him while all the time he was whining about how the entire group sucked because the didn't follow him around and be at his beckon call. If anyone wants to whine and not stay with the group then yes i will be "Highly" mature about it and not heal him/her. why put the whole of the group at risk because one person thinks the dungeons are evidently on a timer. Eventually he will learn hopefully to not try and out run the rest of the group.
In response to never scattering the trash mobs away from the melee let me try to help you understand. If 20 trash mobs and 4 heavy hitters are on one toon such as a rouge then he is takeing more damage than anyone can heal even if they were the best healer.If he then goes down those enemies move to the next and so on and so forth.Which means the entire group wipes because no one could target the enemies that are doing the most damage.I actually have only seen one caster ever use a knockback and it was to to clear the trash mobs away from the melee so people could actually focus on the real threats. I doubt highly that the skill would even be in the game if it didn't have an intended purpose.Sometimes its necessary for the benefit of the group. As the saying goes **** happens. If that rouge or that gwf would rather get the whole group burned down than be healed and given breathing room then so be it.But that wont happen in a group im in as i put whats necessary for the group above what the individual want.
If that one person doesn't like me using it then so be it.But that one person doesnt speak for the other 3 or myself. And being how most of your responses are negative and the first couple refer to the fact that i should run certain skills and that sunburst is useless because basically you said so, then yea i will quote the standard line of everyone plays their own character and no one should tell them different because its true.And no cookie cutter build is ever best for every team or any team for that matter because cookie cutter builds are made for a set purpose. different skills mesh well with other skills from other classes, that's not only fact but common sense.No build is perfect or the absolute end all in the game,a build is only as useful as the person who plays it.And since no one in the world is exactly the same as everyone else then cookie cutter builds will be what they have always been in every mmo in the past 10 years.useless.
I have not and will not change my stance.Just because you suggest what you think has to be the right set of skills because you use them or other clerics use them doesn't mean they are whats right for me. I never came off as self centered to anyone who actually read the post nor did i ever say i used knockbacks continuously nor did i say they were fun. I simply stated that due to long casting times of big heals that it was a useful secondary heal and sometimes a necessity for myself atleast. You said i should run this skill and that skill because you have played for 2 years on pc and that those are the skills that where the best and all other skills were useless because you said so. So Kudos they may be the best........for you. But the rest of us out there who have a brain of our own and a sense of individuality will use our own build and not one copied of the internet,not because they are the best hands down, but because they work for us and fit our individual play style.
This post was meant to see if anyone else had the same issues i had, and in that regard it has succeeded because others were in fact having those same problems. The community in xbox version is different from the pc elitist community. Just cause you never came across a problem on the pc doesn't mean that people on xbox aren't having issues. If im not meshing with a group and they want to kick me then so be it, do to the fact that there is almost never a cleric in any epic dungeon i would have to screw up pretty bad for them to kick me.But even then they still do not have the right to tell me how to play my class.
As far as the rest, Id just like to point out that Sunburst only hits 5 targets. So there will never be an instance where you can use it to save someone from 20 mobs.
My main focus in any dungeon is keeping whoever is tanking alive, as this in turn keeps the rest of the party alive. If i clearly state in chat and voice that i can't heal across a room and as such melee fighters need to stay grouped together and the casters need to stay near me and then a boss fight starts and all the ranged players go to different sides of the room, then yes i will not break away from the tank and melee to run across the room and heal players who are not group minded if this makes me immature then so be it. Same goes when we start a boss fight and a rouge is the first one on the boss because they want to be on top for dps. If they pull aggro before tank just so they can pad their dps numbers and possibly cause the party to wipe then why should i focus in that player instead of the other 3 who are doing things correctly.There isnt a single person who this has happened to that can say that the guilty party didn't then commence running around the room dragging the boss farther and farther away from the tank and scattering adds onto every squishy in the room. In almost every situation were this happens it is almost always a rouge,followed then by a gwf and the sometimes a ranger. Least when a gwf does it they can hold their own for a bit. And then again i have ran dungeons where the gwf was our tank because they are so few guardians available.
I may not always have it slotted in my hotbar, maybe in the future when more people who have never played mmo's learn that this isn't a solo game and that group dynamics are involved along with certain a etiquette such as not running around the room looting while a fight is on then i will probably change it for something that suits me then. But as it stands i simply have no reason to swap it out with anything else. Not saying it will always be, but for the meantime it is a necessity for pugs or at least it is for me. That being said I do think a thread needs to be started discussing the different skills available and in what situations they are useful in that is only available to the console players.
i was gonna mention this but i couldn't remember the name of the dungeon. It also works wondrously on the mini bosses that spawn in this particular part of that fight. Especially when half the players are still attacking the main boss while the mini boss is on the casters. I have used this strategy a few times because they burn casters down so quick its crazy and then you have all the adds that come with them. Wouldn't be viable though if the mini bosses actually dropped anything. And its only really necessary if the party is being overwhelmed or you get stuck in a party with nothing but casters which has happened to me on a few occasions. But a valid startegy none the less
Id say you are correct. The majority of people playing nw on xbox one have probably never played an mmo before and are in the mindset of everything being the same as everything else. The DC is perfectly capable of keeping the party alive while still cranking out some impressive dps numbers with all the de-buffs and buffs and passive abilities available. But it makes it a crazy rewarding class to play in my opinion because its not about standing there and just constantly healing. The class is essentially what you want to make it. It doesn;t fall into the particular mindset of most healers and this is actually the only mmo i have played in which i can say i actually enjoyed the healer class and look forward to playing it when i log in.