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Paingiver
wildwolf8
Member Posts: 161 Bounty Hunter
Something mentioned in another thread made me think about paingiver again.
it was the issue of cw being a hated, or if not hated, a class that everyone is always trying to catch.
Well, to me, if paingiver didn't exist, we pve players wouldn't even know how badly cw were destroying us in damage. I mean, people would still notice that certain things were dying more quickly, but they would just attribute it to the aoe damage, and it would be fine. cw would still be a class people loved to have in a party, but they wouldn't feel so inadequate next to them and wouldn't be screaming for their class to be buffed or whatever.
For example, the first character that I spent a lot of time with was a GWF. I loved this class. I was able to level up no problem, and in most situations I was able to survive and hit things hard...i thought. Paingiver always told a different story. Here I was, slashing enemies, killing things, surviving, helping a team, and yet paingiver always said, 'lol your damage sucks!'
Did the enemies die? Yes. Did I survive where others didn't? yes. Did we win? yes. Without paingiver, I would have been content with my gwf. With paingiver? He feels like a lame duck.
Then look at what happened when I switched to SW. I still survived. I still felt like I was hitting the right buttons at the right times. I felt like I was doing damage. We still killed enemies as a group. We still won. For a few things, I felt more able to kill them faster, but it wasn't such a noticable difference...until I would look at paingiver and see numbers drastically higher.
Anyway, the point is, paingiver causes a lot of pain for the community. One small change to this game that would make people more cooperative and less annoyed at class differences would be to remove the charts.
And then the little voice says: 'but if we remove the charts, people feel fine with their classes and don't feel like they should improve more quickly, and we all know the best way to improve your character in neverwinter...'
sigh. thoughts?
it was the issue of cw being a hated, or if not hated, a class that everyone is always trying to catch.
Well, to me, if paingiver didn't exist, we pve players wouldn't even know how badly cw were destroying us in damage. I mean, people would still notice that certain things were dying more quickly, but they would just attribute it to the aoe damage, and it would be fine. cw would still be a class people loved to have in a party, but they wouldn't feel so inadequate next to them and wouldn't be screaming for their class to be buffed or whatever.
For example, the first character that I spent a lot of time with was a GWF. I loved this class. I was able to level up no problem, and in most situations I was able to survive and hit things hard...i thought. Paingiver always told a different story. Here I was, slashing enemies, killing things, surviving, helping a team, and yet paingiver always said, 'lol your damage sucks!'
Did the enemies die? Yes. Did I survive where others didn't? yes. Did we win? yes. Without paingiver, I would have been content with my gwf. With paingiver? He feels like a lame duck.
Then look at what happened when I switched to SW. I still survived. I still felt like I was hitting the right buttons at the right times. I felt like I was doing damage. We still killed enemies as a group. We still won. For a few things, I felt more able to kill them faster, but it wasn't such a noticable difference...until I would look at paingiver and see numbers drastically higher.
Anyway, the point is, paingiver causes a lot of pain for the community. One small change to this game that would make people more cooperative and less annoyed at class differences would be to remove the charts.
And then the little voice says: 'but if we remove the charts, people feel fine with their classes and don't feel like they should improve more quickly, and we all know the best way to improve your character in neverwinter...'
sigh. thoughts?
Post edited by wildwolf8 on
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CWs are trying to catch me! Which they haven't been able to do yet. SWs w/their single target DPS on bosses, and Tyrannical Threat, are the 'best' DPS class (pre-Mod 6) in the game. :cool:
That being said... I, personally, 100% agree with this. It really, in the end, doesn't matter. I think the game would be better off, and more hospitable, to the general masses of the games players w/o the Paingiver title/competition.
Just one man's opinion...
Only problem with this is that you would have no idea how badly you were doing personally. I look at Paingiver to gauge how I am doing as opposed to others. Sometimes it could be playstyle, other times the build but without the 'scoreboard' it would be very difficult to see how you are matching up to others. If I see that I am millions behind say the second or third dps I know that something is wrong. Without this I would happily go on my merry way and not realise how sucky I might actually be playing.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
nothing is going wrong, per se, when my gwf is doing 6 million by the end of valindra and my sw is doing 12 to 16 million. In both cases, I live, I attack, we win.
The only difference is that sometimes my gwf has a harder time staying on her, and he also can't survive as well when the adds at the end show up, because I have to be at her to kill her, whereas on my sw, I can keep my distance and still maintain damage on her.
Paingiver causes us to rely too heavily on that board to see how well we are doing. It's unnecessary.
To me, the only thing that should determine that you are not doing your job well dps is if you are getting killed too often or if the health bar of the enemy just doesn't move and people are dying because you are going too slowly. Why does anything else even matter?
A healer can tell his/her effectiveness by keeping people alive. Same for a tank. For dps, did the thing die? Yes? then good.
But when I play one class over another, and both take about the same time to kill everything and both win, why does one paingiver (as a verb) so much more poorly than another? It's ridiculous to even care, and yet because it's there, we do care. Or at least most of us do. The game flashes it in our faces and in the faces of those who fought beside us. It takes the thrill of victory out of the victory a bit when you all of a sudden realize that you scored so low, even though you thought you were doing well.
and i've been on both sides of it. feeling like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because of one toon. feeling like a cocky superstar with another. yet with both, the actual game doesn't feel much different.
No , thanks , charts shows who is effective in the run and who is not ;
if they remove it , if the party wipes , no one can knows who's not doing his job right .
i saw 18k CWs who are just too bad to play with (useless) .
Ranking each member against one another, in my opinion, does not help with cooperative game play. In PvE this is really not needed. As long as the dungeon or skirmish is completed efficiently, there were little or no wipes and everyone felt like they contributed, then I don't think there is a need to attach a number at the end.
I rarely look at Paingiver, usually only if it's the first section that pops up at the end of a dungeon.
Unless you are running the same dungeon with the same five people a few times, comparing current to previous dungeon runs is not even in the least bit accurate. So I say nay to that idea
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
In other words, the paingiver does not accurately reflect the theoretical DPS of a character, but rather who kills the enemies quicker. Inherently, the paingiver chart itself is a competition and is not a measure of that character's worth.
I was just coming here to say this.
There's no direct relationship between Paingiver and DPS. It's very possible that a person is delivery more DPS but scoring lower on the Paingiver chart.
So in a way, I agree with the OP, but for different reasons. I'd love to see some sort of personal metrics including in the dungeon runs, such as personal DPS, healing, damage taken, etc...so you can gauge your own effectiveness, but people misunderstand and misuse what's being reported by the Paingiver number.
one thing i'd like to hear responses to would be my last point, which was that the paingiver exists to make us feel inferior and thus to spend money.
like so many other ideas I have heard, most people would like more appropriate information to be learned from the end. we all know paingiver is flawed. however, it will remain part of the game, because it motivates people to want to improve themselves. Those who score high, want to score higher. Those who score low want to catch those who beat them. And like I said, what is the best way to score higher in NW?
I will disagree with you on the GWF I can keep relatively close to both SW and CWs in my guild who are all about the same GS, within a few million depending on the dungeon but honestly it doesnt matter thats not my job in a dungeon I am a mob wrangler. when the SW and CWs get aggro I threatening rush over and frontline surge them down and pull them back to the GF with come and get it, so that the SW's and CW's can blow them up easier. this game isn't really a numbers game like WoW its all about working with your group and making the dungeons easy. when I run with Ironzerg79 he knows if he drops an oppressive force in the middle of a pack of mobs and they get pushed out I will be right there to come and get it and pull them right back in to a pile so he can drop his next nuke on them.
I agree with the rest of what you said though people need to pay less attention to the paingiver and that effective runs matter more than damage
It would be cool if at the end of the dungeon, the game rated your GROUP on performance, not individuals. Make some sort of aggregate scored based on how fast the dungeon was cleared, how much damage was done, how much was taken, how much was healed and how many times someone fell down.
The non-paingiver stats just don't matter pre-Mod 6. No adequately geared character with a modestly skilled player really dies in PVE, and doesn't really need a healer or a tank to get through. Hopefully that will change with Module 6. I really enjoyed the pre-GS-explosion phase where people needed each of the roles to be filled for optimal results.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Sure. However, the charts don't measure DPS (damage per second). They measure total damage done. They are exactly equal to the hit points of all mobs that have been cleared to that point (and may count "overkill" - excess damage done beyond a mob's actual remaining hit points).
They show who got to the mobs first to kill them, not how fast the damage was actually done. A CW that is good at popping his daily first on large groups of adds will outperform an identical CW that's just 1-2 seconds slower to push the same buttons by a large amount.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Honestly, when you look at that chart and don't take into consideration what class that char has, and what that means for their damage output, more specifically, how many targets they can hit simultaneously... ...than you're less then enlightened.
Simple math: The GWF can hit 1-3 targets with an at-will. HR 5 or more. Doh. hitting 5 for 3k each just gives better DPS than hitting 1 for 10k. Practical application: My HR is often Paingiver or Executioner, rarely below 2nd place, even though her damage basically plain sucks. For SW, TR and DC a lot depends on what encounters you slot, and how well you employ these, and spec. But CWs always hit a lot of targets for a lot of damage with their encounters, they rather have a problem dealing damage to single targets, so...
And re. reflects kills: No, that's Executioner. Paingiver only counts HP damage caused, BTW including those your pet causes.
Smokebomb is goooood for your DPS, especially if you're Exec and steath after dropping it => 100% crit! :^)
The only ones sometimes belied by the system are the DCs: when they use area spells in good debuff, they also up everybody elses damage. But fortunately the focus on Paingiver is not really popular among DCs...
What however makes the biggest difference is who rushes ahead and can cause significant damage. Because the overkill damage on the last blow just goes to DPS nirvana and isn't counted. So rushing ahead and causing pain to as many targets as possible is what gives you Paingiver lead...
I honestly don't mind if it is or isn't there. It is such an inaccurate measure of skill/ability or a persons build, that it doesn't matter regardless of whether it is there or not. For example, my perma tr can enter and solo almost any dungeon in the game with 11k gs, no other class can claim to be able to do that. Will he win paingiver? nope. My dc can win paingiver if he likes as well, but he would be more beneficial for the team if he focuses on buffing the other members in general. My CW can also win paingiver and so can my SW, however my SW is tempt SW because I prefer tempt and my CW, whilst he 9/10 will win it, spends a large amount of time controlling adds with intelligent use of encounters rather then just dps spam. However, I do believe that people who measure effectiveness by paingiver are halfway there, as opposed to people who measure by gs, who haven't even started working towards improving their measuring stick yet.
With this current system there are just too many variables for it to be an effective measure of your 'contribution' or whether your 'doing your job.'
I have ran with players that I just know are popping 'x' every other fight. "OMG! Where am I at on the list?!?!"
A couple of posters in this thread touched on the most important thing in a group run, Does the group work together? If yes, than charts do not matter.
Branch Lead
Accept the following - as a melee you will NEVER out dps a good CW in a dungeon full of trash mobs. GWF's fortes are in other areas. Have yet to meet a CW to beat me in elol. They're too squishy to stay close, die fast and can't CC fast enough to stay alive.
I will also say this - paingiver gives me a reason to stick around. I can always do better, it gives me a clearer image of how I do compared to others. Comparing to SW's in broken sets or CW's in CN is not ideal, but it's important to keep it if only for healthy competition.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
Furthermore they dont take buffs and debuffs into account. A 2/2 set CW might 'outdps' the HV CW, but the second one boosts the groups dmg and is more valuable.
Running with a good buff/debuff DC and GF will make the runs much easier, than another DD battleing for paingiver.
The only solid information the charts can give you, if you run with the same class and similar gear and playstyle. If someone does significant dps I inspect his char, to learn something about his gear/ build or ask him, to enhance my own performace.
A friend of looked at the charts at the end and sometimes asked player with really bad perfomance for their build/ skill rotation, to give them tips. Sadly, most of them thought, that he was trolling them and were offended. Maybe 1 of 5 players thanked him for his tipps and 2 of 5 added him to his ignore list.
Yeah +1
Well take it like this. You are in an heroic dungeon as a GSW, you gave them the strategy to kill the last boss on Castle Never, you survived the whole fight, didn't needed healing at all, but your was 3rd on dps. Then right when you open the chest, someone just to Mess things up, decide to put to vote to kick you out right before you could choose a reward from the chest. Why that vote was made? you contributed to the fight giving them a strategy, you survived and did your part and even tho you was under-geared compared to the other people, you managed it to the 3rd place. You was never disrespectful, instead you was polite and friendly. Then, what made a person vote to kick you? My only guess is either the person just dont give a F or got mad that you was not on top of the chart.
So i am agree when people say that the scores divide people instead of unite them. In this game there is no "friendly competition". You can even see how it affects on the rewards from killing dragons or tiamath event. Only those on the top 5 get the goodies while the rest get junk. Of course the ones on the top will get stronger for next event making it nearly impossible to out dps them, specially when they are people with tons of real life money to spend on a game.
This game should reward those active instead of only the tops 1, 3 or 5.
Now if we look in to tiamat, you can see how over 60% of the people goes afk, of course, because reward is given to the best, they know they going to get crappy reward so why bother?
They need to remove the charts and make a system that counts the active time instead. Reward those who PARTICIPATE regarless of their dps. If they was active 100% of the fight, rewards them. If they was active only 60% no reward for those. We dont need damage/healing charts, we need an "active time" chart. That will tell you who is doing their job and who is not.
...because when there's five people rolling "greed" for the boss drop, everyone has 20% chance, when there's four, everyone has 25%,...
Lootkicking is an even worse behaviour, but believe me, unfortunately all too common in this game. You've done your work and deserve your fair chance, but there are too many people in this game who think that fairness is for the weak, and hampers their progress to greatness. But your kicking did have nothing to do with your performance on the paingiver chart...