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Control Wizards, Storm Spell and overall DPS performance.
denvald
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 702 Arc User
I am removing this thread, because it's not my place to balance classes, thats a job for the devs of this game.
It's not my place to tell people what to believe, or what they should do. For the gamers, nor the devs of the game. And I shouldn't be enforcing my opinions unto anyone else, because we're all free to think what we want.
I went overboard, and I'm sorry to everyone I've offended with my posts recently, I've said some really dumb non-sense and I apologize.
I also apologize to Panderus for posting a PM he sent me, which thank god I was able to remove.
Everyone, I'll see you all back in game
Have fun and stay well
Zek
Note: I asked for a lock, this hateful thread has gone on long enough
It's not my place to tell people what to believe, or what they should do. For the gamers, nor the devs of the game. And I shouldn't be enforcing my opinions unto anyone else, because we're all free to think what we want.
I went overboard, and I'm sorry to everyone I've offended with my posts recently, I've said some really dumb non-sense and I apologize.
I also apologize to Panderus for posting a PM he sent me, which thank god I was able to remove.
Everyone, I'll see you all back in game
Have fun and stay well
Zek
Note: I asked for a lock, this hateful thread has gone on long enough
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
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Its the only thing in game coming from class feature aka passive damage that can crit.
Prior to mod3 my CW (at 15.5k GS at the time) could KILL the Dummies in 1-2 spell rotations. Now after I can sometimes kill the Dummies after 2 rotations (19k GS with a legendary main hand). That's how much damage was lost, even with the absurdly buffed Storm Spell. It used to do 10-15% of our DPS. Most of your presentation was done in module 3 preview testing. We lost.
the old cw is broken too. the class dont need be "rebuffed". just "nerfed" (fixed), since m1 at least.
- fresh copied level 60 char will be boosted to 70 getting far more stats than on live, Level 70 char will have far less (esp. crit for the rene!)
- you used 4 attack spells (CoI on tab). Place shield on tab and test again cause you'll need shield in dungeons to stay alive. You will not be able to facetank anymore
- I guess CoI was affecting 2 or 3 dummies cause it was tabbed. Not tabbed it would only be one dummie due to the smaller radius => less procs of storm spell
- with level 70 you'll have far less crit, so less crit, less storm spell
- icy terrain is stopping to damage frozen targets (bug) => less dot's, less procs of stormspell
Would be good if you would test with level 70 char and level 70 specc. Easy way is sometimes wrong way...
TBH, i did play CW in pvp in module 3 and DPS-wise it was a killing machine. More exped cws asked for defensive buffs for pvp, not absurd DPS coming from passive procs.
In PvE, CWs were always OP being both best at comtrolling AND dealing damage, with only mod2 deep gash Gwf getting close to their DPS. CW-stacking in pve been a rule for a long time.
I did 2 rounds of TT, starting each with full soul sparks for maximum uses of soul scorch and then capping off with Warlock's Bargain and Dreadtheft. It's my #1 rotation for damage. Total damage numbers aren't as important as the percentages.
Soul Scorch is pretty beastly.
CW: Rodrant Turnbul
TR: Rodran
DC: Rodrat
GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL
Other GWF: Shieldrant
HR: Bowdrant
SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!)
OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
Firstly, you only compare it to your SW and the CW other spells against dummies; changing a class abilities needs to be weighed against how that class deals with the environment and compared to a group setting with other classes.
A CW is hardly stationary during a fight. Storm spell requires a critical chance to hit. Even with Eye of the Storm, the chances of proc'ing crits during that time window depends on the wizard having the spells off cooldown and being able to cast those spells without having to dodge, etc.
How does the CW compare to other high DPS classes like the TR, or possibly the HR or GWF next module? How viable will a party be if groups of monsters will be tougher to beat and the CW DPS tree is reduced? A pre-emptive strike against the viability of CW in PVE should not be based on static test results but rather in a dynamic environment.
I think removing the crit aspect of storm spell would keep it's role and make it more in line with the other feats in the game.
Considering in my rotations I did 3.7mil DPS from normal abilities and 3mil from storm spell I do not see how simply reducing it to 500k or 1mil (such as removing the crits from them) would put them in the same place as other striker classes. Let's remember we're talking about being on par with pure striker classes. CWs got inherent control, other classes do not. If CWs had 80% of the overall DPS as pure striker classes that sounds good to me. That's my opinion though. Also I like the historia but it sounds like 'My CW was OP before so it needs something to remain OP'. Clearly being top striker AND having control makes it an obvious choice as it is now I don't think it's balanced.
thanks for your input though
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
i agree whit you
I love this kind of comment because it doesn't seem like you've played a lv 70 wizard. I would have loved bringing to the table my results with my lv 70 wizard however he was eaten by a black hole and I do not want to raise another one to 70 right now.
Let me tell you, at 70 my wizard was WAY beefier than my lv 60 scaled to 70 is. Period. 5 stacks of chill on every encounter cast + rank 4 chilling presence whoops the HAMSTER out of whatever benefits you get for being a lv 60 scaled to 70. That is all, if you belive I'm wrong I invite you to prove me wrong with your own tests
Amount of crit let's calculate quickly how much inherent crit we get without even stopping to see how much you get from your stat.
estimate 25 cha
uncertain alliegance
Chilling advantage
Without even considering your stats you get 30% crit right off the bat, and up to 60% when your renegade procs. You can easily get up to really high crits which invalidates your point. Especially since there's no more hard/soft caps on crit you can stack as much crit as you want. So yes there's really an issue here.
About Icy terrain I don't get your point, I specifically mentionned that sudden storm and icy terrain didn't do the intended real damage because the dummies died, which means 6.7mil is lower than the real value i would have got elsewhere.
I think you're right, there's nothing wrong with CWs being high DPS. But being the strongest striker AND having control makes it much stronger than the other class choices who have less than or equal DPS than CWs is a problem.
Making Storm Spell unable to crit would reduce it's dps by around 50% depending on how much crit severity the CW has, which is completely acceptable and would put it back in line with other feats.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
That is true to some degree, however Renes + chill presence have much more DPS than Eye of the storm. Go ahead and try you'll see
Thanks for bringing numbers to the table! Yes that's about how much DPS I got as well, Dreadtheft and Soul Scorch being really high rated in terms of damage.
SWs take skill to master and play well. You sound like a good SW. CWs DPS comes automaticly with procs when you press a button. While that's not an issue in itself it's kinda annoying if the effort one has to put to perform isn't as rewarding as someone facerolling on their keyboard :P
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
You have only compared the CW to a SW, not to any other classes, how can you claim to know the DPS differentials between the HR, TR, GWF at level 70?
I'll reiterate, these tests are based on full offensive encounters, without any defense, against static objects. It does not measure the CW DPS output in a dynamic environment and cannot be used to make a decision about a class feature (especially since the two new CW class features in Mod 6 are a joke, but that's a separate issue).
I think that covers it up, If you feel I am wrong in my responses I invite you to prove me wrong with your own line of testing
Thanks for your reply :cool:
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Sadly, if you do put those tests in real time it will only improve the CWs performance, because disabling monsters gives you and your party more freedom in your choice of attacks and position. Other strikers rely on healing and kiting mostly for their survival methods in PvE. Cws can stand in the bunch and perma freeze ennemies with ice veins feat - making every ennemy close to the CW take 5 stacks of chill every time the CW uses any encounter power. Not only does that give close to perma uptime to the 98% damage boost of chilling presence, but it also gives great flexibility to the CW because monsters aren't attacking you when they're frozen. I invite you to prove me wrong with your testing, I have played a 70 wiz and that's what it was like. I solo'd encounters with little to no difficulty because everything was frozen, all the time. I'm sorry I cannot prove it anymore because the black hoel glitch prevents me from playing my 70 wiz now. However based on my testings and logical assumption oen can understand the situation as I just mentionned.
Also, those claims are based off from my mod 5 experience. SW was the strongest striker in mod 5, I know how much DPS my HR trapper friend can do, it's about 60% of my DPS most of the time. And the dps of my warlock was reduced to roughly those levels.
I havent done proper testing on the other classes, I would appreciate if someone could post that information. Because I simply don't have those other characters to be testing with.
I have seen some really high DPS GWF in preview, it seems to me that high risk high reward style wil lbe GWF. you're in melee range which is dangerous for a striker. But if you play your cards right your DPS is trough the roof.
Again, any further information is welcome. If you can bring more numbers from other classes that would be appreciated, even if it disproves my points brought up here when I assumed that warlock had roughly the same DPS as TRs HRs and GWFs on preview.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
You are assuming that the CW will only play a renegade spellstorm. There are 5 other iterations of the CW, of which I am personally quite fond of my spellstorm thaumaturge. I don't stack crit or reach crit quite as high or frequently as a renegade CW, and hence I would prefer to use EotS.
Perhaps my choice may change in Mod 6, but we are not there yet, hence, pre-empting a nerf on storm spell would mean sadness for other CWs out there. I do not want to see all CWs play just one sub-class. That would be boring.
Thanks for your reply. I understand where you're coming from a pvp standpoint storm spell is the pillar on which every sits and rellies on to kill classes nowadays in pvp. However I do not believe it should stay as it is on preview. I still believe having a feat that deals 45% of your total DPS is too much.
Considering my CW did 6.7mil DPS and my SW did roughly 4mil. Taking the 3mil from Storm spell and halving it to 1.5mil you're still 1 million ahead of other strikers.
I base my claim over the fact that in mod 5 SW was the strongest striker and that the nerfs in mod 6 will put it on par with the other strikers, however I did not do proper testing with other classes because I simply do not have them to test with. More information and testing is welcome here if you can I would love to see the results you'd get on the other strikers in a 2min DPS race lv 60 scaled to 70 HR TR or GWF in preview.
CWs were too strong before, and they still are, reducing it's storm spell damage by half would still make it one of the most potent strikers and bring amazing control if you spec properly (icy cveins encounter - 5 stacks of chill). So if you choose between two DPS who have the same DPS overall but one controls and prevents mobs from attacking and one does too much agro and dies all the time, which do you pick?
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
I understand your point, however the most problematic CW is the spec I just mentionned. I understand you like other specs, but ignoring the stronger spec because you like the weaker spec does not solve the problem. The rest is personal preference, you'll be on par with the other strikers if you don't use the aforementioned build, which is the real problem at hand. The numbers for the other two specs are actually quite reasonable. I'll try to post information tomorrow if I have time from ACT.
Renegades who take rank 3 control feat from opressor and spec for renegade capstone are the best striker and very strong controllers all in one.
This is a problem IMO.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
good to know. but the situation only will change when more 9 "happy devs" leave the game. even some ethical cws already have reported that, but... you know.
Balancing class features and class types will need more input, I do agree on that point. The PvP and PvE environments differ. While I do not want to see one class dominate the others on all fronts, I also do not want a change to a class that would have farther reaching consequences than what you show in your test.
Storm spell deals 45% of a CW's damage (average, some tests went higher some slightly lower). This is too high from a single feat. Reducing procs to normal hits instead of all crits would likely fix the issue entirely.
SWs who were previously the strongest strikers in the game were nerfed in mod 6.
CWs got another buff. the ability to take the 3rd feat from opressor which can potentiall perma freeze all CC-able mobs if played correctly and using icy terrain.
This leads to insane amounts of damage paired with storm spell and chilling presence.
Thaumaturge and Opressor are OK, Renegade is not. Not only is the highest DPS tree by far, it also deals very good control from said feat AND does excellent party buffs from the capstone.
I agree, I think there might be better solutions than nerf hammering storm spell (perhaps the other specs other than renegade would start to suck)
Perhaps the problem lies within renegade itself, or the fact that the icy veins feat should be higher up the opressor tree, as I consider it to be one of the most powerful control feats available to CW atm and every other tree can have access to it at lv 70.
At any rate, something needs to be done about the situation.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
If you wanted to balance out the classes and sub-classes, and understand that the renegade spellstorm outperforms not only other classes but also sub-classes of CW in DPS and control, why are you suggesting a nerf to all the classes (in essence, making the 5 other types of CW weaker also) but perserving the dominance of the rene spellstorm in the CW tree?
Would not the logical argument be then to reduce the capstone or the DPS/Control capabilities of the renegade spellstorm? While that might sound like a troll argument, I also believe that a nerf to all classes of CW is not the way to increase the viability and variety of CW types.
Perhaps looking as to what makes one particular subtype dominate might address this better.
Yes sorry i was probably editting while you were typing I just wrote above the same comment as you mentionned
'Perhaps the problem lies within renegade itself, or the fact that the icy veins feat should be higher up the opressor tree, as I consider it to be one of the most powerful control feats available to CW atm and every other tree can have access to it at lv 70.'
If anything, something must be done about this situation.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
I've tested icy veins, and one of its drawbacks is its 15' radius. To maximise its effect one would need to be a close mid-range caster. Getting close to the enemies in Mod 6 is far more dangerous than currently, especially with the erratic healing of life-steal. When enemies break free of their freeze, one would need to use at least 2 encounter powers to refreeze them again (unless icy terrain or CoI on tab is running, or you are using chilling cloud, or perhaps one cast of feated sudden storm). It also won't work on control immune targets.
But yes, perhaps some testing on whether the CW does outperform other classes in Mod 6 in DPS and control would be in order.
TR, HR and SW are already making higher dps than CW in PvE.
Nef spellstorm and you kill this class in pvp completely.
Go into Icewind dale and try to perma-freeze a mob with icy terrain/CoI in an epic heroic encounter. You can't.
If you stand in the middle of the mob, they will kill you very quickly.
In module 6, CW's control is reduced to an interrupt on elite mobs.
Personally, I used shard instead of icy terrain. Shard gives guaranteed, instant knock down on non-CC immune mob.
Even with multiple CW's, it's risky to let the mob surround you because they can one-shot you if they are uncontrolled for a few seconds. If you fight a mob which is spread out and has ranged attack, good luck trying to survive and control them all.
We might have to start using arcane singularity again because ranged mob can be deadly and needs to be controlled too.
the basic idea that something hitting for 20k can proc without internal cooldown on an at will like ray of frost is stupid.