The problem is that TR in PvE is supposed to be the single target damage dealer. The consequence is that what make him efficient in PvE
They are single and aoe masters now. I dont see single target in PvE. They spam PotB, SB, dazing... I see their single target power slotted only at boss. But its ok. My 13k exe has 11k PotB, 100% crit chance in stealth, SoD... When my 22k GWF has 3k base damage on FLS, NSF and other aoe powers. I havent 100% crit, devs took deep gash from us long time ago. TRs have better AoE than class who supposed be an AoE class.
Easy to be OP when other classes like GWF or SW (but only in PvP) are HAMSTER. Healing DC is meat, DPS DC is lottery, good CW still can win against medium skilled TR. GF have to be skilled and geared to kill TR, same as HR.
take away mobility in stealth-->even if i run as fast as i can TR hits me 10 times easily in stealth with bloodbath, its all redicules being hit 10 times by one encounter, and the char can stay all time in stealth, lololol, am always nearly dead since no dodging ability with warlock
tenacity should be respectetd by every damage or encounter, so at least you have options espec. for defensive classes and classes that have no dodges
that would make things better and force player to invest into Tenacity, can´t stand it any more watching all these chars with zero teneacity trolling in PVP -> make brackets, same you did for kessels retreat, just replace balck-ice-resistance with tenacitiy
As for mod 6 what i am about to see is bunch of saboteur changed tr's running around on perma stealth because the two tree's are nerfed badly ..you know what people still going to cry i am sure you will see people start threads everyday about tr being Op ..I agree they are lot of things that are broken for tr in pvp ..Instead of explaning about what needs to be corrected people start a new thread about tr and cry a lot which results in nerfing the wrong tree ..I know that some guilds planning to destroy the tr class so they could dance on the corpses of dead tr's in pvp with their cw toons .
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
being hit 10 times by one encounter
Bloodpath is a Dayly, not an encounter. That change everything.
take away mobility in stealth-->even if i run as fast as i can TR hits me 10 times easily in stealth with bloodbath
TR don't move when they use bloodpath, making your observation perfectly useless. They are teleported from target to target and don't chose where they go.
Also, that is how the power work : low damage, but multiple procs on different targets if there is a group, on a single target if you are alone. The problem is that in stealth all hits are crits (which do not happen without stealth), but also that heroic feats can improve the efficiency. Some of thoses feats are glitched, but bloodpath itself is WaI.
tenacity : Ok, fine. i agree
make brackets, same you did for kessels retreat, just replace balck-ice-resistance with tenacitiy
ok, but that will introduce the need for multiple lvl of PvP. Some for PvP-stuffed players, and some for more casual players, or for those who still don't own gear with tenacity. And that is not an incoming function.
Conclusion : Bad idea for now.
TR don't move when they use bloodpath, making your observation perfectly useless. They are teleported from target to target and don't chose where they go.
Also, that is how the power work : low damage, but multiple procs on different targets if there is a group, on a single target if you are alone. The problem is that in stealth all hits are crits (which do not happen without stealth), but also that heroic feats can improve the efficiency. Some of thoses feats are glitched, but bloodpath itself is WaI.
than change this bloods hit-daily a bit , limit the hits on one target (max 3-4 times) since it is spammed like hell (a daily lol)
--> its an aoe spell, so it should deal aoe and not be a nevermissing "single-autotarget-noskill" - daily
ok, but that will introduce the need for multiple lvl of PvP. Some for PvP-stuffed players, and some for more casual players, or for those who still don't own gear with tenacity. And that is not an incoming function.
Conclusion : Bad idea for now.
no it just need to spend 10-20k ad-->i started with blue stuff with DC , tons of hp and tenacity on it, better than purple T1 set
read about builds, setup etc before doing PVP and just troll arround and make it most depremising for everyone else, only wanting some daily AD
that is one of these mysteries in NW i can´t understand, lots of people queue for PVP every day, but are too lazy to invest 30min of reading and 20k ad to buff their char, only argument " Sooorrrryyyy, I need to earn the glory to get stuff blabla"
thats BS, go GG PVE , go GG instances, buy it from the AH (blue purple green) chose, than come and take part
I'll sum this thing up - TR's should NOT be able to one shot everything. I don't care what they do, nerf, overpower, I really donnnnnn't care. I never cared about Scoundrel and I have no tears for em being nerfed, they do the least damage and are manageable. I do care about Shocking Exec abuse, about SOD, about no matter how tanky, geared and super awesome you are, every 12k TR scrub with a p.vorp can one shot you. This needs to stop. Like right now. PVP is 90% rogue. I'm not playing TR online for gods sake.
Now I should defend myself because of false accusations? I don’t think so.
SW is capable of killing a TR you must only know how to play him properly. I saw some good SWs that kicked me, DOT me and then Laser me to death while make short sprints to escape my duelist flurry.
But like I said in the same post the TR need some adjustment but the PvP Community is very aggressive like a 12 year old child losing in COD it simply ignored that part of the same post.* How should anyone take the PvP Community of this game serious if you not discuss the topic and simply spam the Forum with hilarious demands to overpower the own class without a sign of common sense.
A better design for the TR in PvP would be if he is out of stealth he is vulnerable like a candle in a hurricane. The basic tenacity for this class could be lowered and as I said before the deflect severity should be lowered (-25% to 50% instead of 75%) in addition take away one dodge. The class would be fine.
You could still go on Scoundrel to endure more damage but it would be hard to face-tank stuff like a GWF in PvP which role is clearly to stay at front line and cut through the enemies like a hot knife through butter.
This change would not greatly affect the PvE because the Damage as Striker Class is untouched and one dodge less is not that bad (most of the TR-Tester from the old module said that it is too much dodge) and -25% deflect severity is reasonable because the TR can easily get 40-50% Deflect to give a class such an huge amount of deflect chance AND deflect severity is simply a game breaker.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
I had the pleasure to test some more..with a friend TR.
Me ( full Mythical/rank 12) and him basic..just purple artifacts ,and rank 7-8.
Regarding my damage..was like nothing compared to the TR.
What i see is :
TR mod 6 have :
Same incredibile move speed..if he dodges u cant catch him..even mounted.
Same ITC whenever i menage to CC him , so he easy escapes Dangerous CC and repeat stealth and etc.
Same Daze.
Incredible Damage ( 2 hits .>Rarely 3 hits till it kills me).
ON GWF i can tank better ), but then its the problem with Move Speed , if i CC him he will use ITC to dodge away and enter perma mode.
So my question is : Mod 5 was not enough ??? Did players not offer feedbacks and everything towards TR ?
Mod 6 will be a TR feast ?
Im not tryng to troll , im tryng to find the Logic in all this.
My Feedback would be :
ITC keep deflect , keep duration and CD, But remove the CC immunity ( not fair to be CC'ed then instantly escape CC and immune to it for 5 seconds .
Restore the Old Dodges , The range size of dodge is to Big.
Do something with the dazes , add higher CD or something.
May the Bacon Bless.
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
than change this bloods hit-daily a bit , limit the hits on one target (max 3-4 times),
--> its an aoe spell, so it should deal aoe and not be a nevermissing "single-autotarget-noskill" - daily
Would need to be only in PvP as it do not cause trouble in PvE. Also Tr is not the only class to have a power that auto-lock.
The power hadn't received more damage for mod5, it is simply the feats that make it OP.
You want to heal the symptoms instead of the disease.
go GG PVE
=> look to be removed from mod6
Indeed, there is some stuff, but regular players can't afford two stuff. They would need enchants*2, wich is expensive, and if you play mostly PvE and only sometimes go in PvP, that is a lost of AD.
Or else you add the same thing for PvE. Player who wear pvp stuff with tenacity are not allowed in PvE. Why should PvE player looking for an occasional match be penalized compared to PvP player looking for an occasional dungeon ?
having special gear for PVP is not very uncommon, going every day doing PVP-daily earning 4k ad and not investing in any gear is uncommon imo
PVE is the biggest part ingame, the content is not challenging for any person, it doesn´t matter how you go there,
btw everyone has PVE gear, noone must use PVP gear at all, if he does he probably is blamed or ignored in groupchannel in case of underperforming
but since i get mixed lots of time with players that don´t really care about PVP it is for sure a matter, and could be solved very easy since most ppl will ignore the fact that they destroy hole games, 2-3 brackets that include tenacity and GS f.e. easy
at least , i don´t care about how this BB-damage and others is going to be reduced, the thread wants to discuss it, so i do (would be sufficient when respecting tenacity)
Make stealth effect 100% crit change only proc for atwill
Encounter and daily must proc depend on crit stat change
Reduce movespeed in steath mode at least 20%
nerf roll
and we good to go mod 6
Usually I don't play PvP, but went to some GG recently and entire team pretty much got HAMSTER by two TR who had all and every ability to dodge, dissapear, move away, disable and also 1-2 hit kill anyone while also having enough stamina to dance ballet.
What is wrong with the picture?
I suggest this :
If a TR goes into Stealth, make him unable to do so again unless he's not being seen by anyone. He should not be able to go into stealth in plain sight, that's ridiculous.
If two or more people are around and if TR moves, he should become slightly visible to the players. It shouldn't be possible for 1 TR to go solo against seven players and kill them all with barely 4k Power and 2k Arpen. There's no logic in that.
TR's have TOO many options to evade attacks, and very, very frequently. Not to mention smoke, daze et cetera. All of this makes them viable to play at ALL PLACES at once - Poker, ganker, offence, defence. There's not a role that TR can't play, while it's different for every other class around.
Lantern of Revelation does horse **** against TR's stealth. TR simply vanishes again in a manner of 2-3 sec, and whilst visible will just roll around and DAZE, DAMAGE with AOE and seriously annoy people and then stand on a particular place laughing at others faces. Again, no logic in that and doesn't make it a worthwhile experience.
TR's have Impossible to catch spell which is seriously overpovered and extremely frequently used.
I speak this as a CW who couldn't do anything with a 12 sec cooldown Steal Time, nor any other spell for that matter. Imagine a GG game where 90% players are TRs, usually a bad, bad thing.
Ergo, please nerf this bullcrap since any **** can play TRs now and make tremendous progress with little to no effort at all. Seriously OP class in PvP.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
these GG game with at least 60% TR population do exist and are posted recently, its not a vision any more its reality
lolol this is a burning ship in a hurrican with a drunken captain , ship´s mast broken, rudder locked
have a nice trip to isle of mod 6
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited March 2015
You know... if TR did not become visible to the person they were attacking.
I would not mind half of the ideas you have suggested here..
However, since tr is visible once they attack.. I don't care for any of your suggestions.
Your entire make TR visible is what brought on the daze and one shot wars.
I told you it would happen yet you still cried about it.
Each time you cry about TR and devs make changes to assist your short comings, TR's adapt to something way worse than what you had before.
When will you learn?
It's not just TR, this happens with all classes people cry about.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
take away 100% crit from stealth, make it proc once in a minute, or fix at least these broken encounters that ignore tenacity and DR , tune down the aoe --> its a singel target class, dealing enormous damage on bosses, melting them away
make the rogue visible by attacking at least 4 seconds, he´s got enough dodges, itc, high deflect+deflect severity, faster movement like horse etc. --> all of these are redicules capabilites compared to other classes
beeing permastealth is also redicules by far, first game i play a class can perma hide lol, big big BS, tune down the stealthbar a bit
again having most survivability, most damage, most cc, most movement ? what do you want on top, an nuclear-bomb to clean the hole playground at once?
So much ill-informed whining on this thread. And once again, a 'nerf please' thread is left to run when they are supposed to be against the forum rules.
tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
schietindebux :
fix at least these broken encounters that ignore tenacity and DR
Which encounter ? I have no knowledge about an encounter suffering from this trouble. Talents, maybe dailies, but not encounters...
About stealth, well, that is the all class which cause this problem :
-making damage => require stealth
-having a good speed => require stealth
-survive => require stealth
TR player simply use their tool. They don't abuse on this point, they simply play their class as it is intented to be played.
Also, speaking about itc, it's old incarnation (pre-mod5) was the capstone of non-stealth build, but they reworked it, obliging us to use it only in combinationwith stealth-based builds. Blame the devs for their unconsidered rework, not player for using what they have.
fix at least these broken encounters that ignore tenacity and DR
That is not what allow perma-stealth. Stealth last 6s, it is our feats, armor set bonus and power that allow perma
c1k4ml3kc3 =>
First let me tell you that, as a player who have a TR as main character, I strongly agree with the need of a rework. But you clearly complain about symptoms, and not about the decease itself.
About TR unable to stealth if they are in sight, it is really hard to imagine. For example, on hotenow (might be a wrong spelling), if you stand on north side you can see player on south side, so, when will the TR ba allowed to stealth.
No, you can add restriction, like the need for a feat, or this kind of thing, but the hability to stealth when things became awkward is what make a rogue efficient in most game. We are squishy melee, but we can leave when want...
TR's have TOO many options to evade attacks
The correct sentence would be "too mutch at the same time". Rogue are polyvalent dirty fighter. THe problem is that a particular build should be required to make TR efficient in something, aka "stealth troller", "dirty warrior" and "assassin". That is not what happen here.
Lantern => yes, indeed it suck. They should make something to counter stealth. Something that not everyone choose to use, in order to keep it balanced, but something that worst the try. It can also be a particular class encounter. But indeed, that could be an interesting mechanic, assuming not every player would have it : else it simply ban TR from PvP.
About their damage, stuns... well, that is TR's job, we simply use what we have. But anyway, the perma-daze scoundrel have been nerfed to ground, so, prey for the new perma-daze-parma-stealth saboteur (stealth is just for crits) that will soon make you cry...
Hey, you asked for nerf, you get it, and now you will discover that asking for a rework would have been a better idea... but it is already too late. (by you, I don't mean you, I mean the community).
About itc : well, we are a weak but evasive melee class, at least on the paper. ITC can be tuned, but actually, it fit the TR's style : easy to kill when you grab him, but not so easy to grab. That is not the main problem.
with a 12 sec cooldown
A 12 seconds cooldown ? And you call it "long" ? How lucky you are... For TR 15s is a regular cooldown, and most powerfull habilities need an even longer cooldown (by powerfull I mean 8000 single target damage).
The problem is that you see something that seems too efficient for your taste and ask for a nerf, but what you don't know is that you are nerfing a consequence of the real problem, and the problem itself. That mean that it will NEVER work.
You will simply move the problem to something else until TR had nothing left because stupid adjustment have been done with a so short sight... And then TR became useless and need a buff... But the buff is also a short sight one and the circle restart...
It's BORING !
demonmonger
+1
the problem is that we know were trouble come from, but we can't roar as strong as those dead-brain wo cry for nerf without any consideration for the monster they are creating.
I always laught when I think about these strange concept : "if you are stealth, you are visible"... What an incredible idea...
One question in my mind that i dying want to know
did dev read forum feedback and test how TR perform OPness in mod 6?
If not, all of this is pointless mod 6 pvp gonna be dead "again"
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
piejal =>
they have added modification to TR based on some aspect contested by player.
Also, it is difficult to balance for now. Our power will be reduced and our HP will get a "little" boost", so, it is hard to tell if TR will still be impossible to manage.
They add a lot of modification, let's see how it change the game, and then think for well balanced adjustments. And not nerf, the last time they'd nerfed the TR, we were OP, and we become the useless class that no one want in it's party. During mod2, a 12k CW or GWF was more powerfull than a 17/18k TR. And players were still not able to understand why we go perma-stealth (witch is impossible today).
dodges meter need to be back like it was . Tr have stealth to hide , and with extra dodges+ distance ,
he can hit then run away whenever he feel threatned .
this thread is funny u guys keep crying about tr in pvp but u do know that this is a pve focused game. btw i dont pvp pve only tr and tr is in a good spot now for pve stop trying to nerf my tr like mod 2 when nobody in lfg channel wanted to group because we were useless
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
Nope. TR are supposed to be fast moving, and that wasn't what was happening in this time. 2 dodges that can't be chained were definitely not enough.
A reduction, yes, but going back to the old system ? That would just send us bach to the time were dodging was nearly a waste of time, just a way to dodge damage while loosing 4 seconds coming back to the fight, as it was at the same time too short to really send you far from a dangerous enemy and too long to still be in melee range.
dohgoh =>
Yes, TR is efficient, for the first time since more than a year, but that do not mean it is well balanced, even from a PvE perspective.
Those "nerfer" are an annoyance, but some well planed tuning can't hurt.
I remember mod 2. at that time, even a 17/18k TR wasn't able to find a group for VT while 11,5k CW does.
Hell... I don't even know how many hours I have spend spamming lfg, connecting 30mn before DJ event and stoping only 30mn after the DJ event had ended... What a nightmare.
Friends were the only way to do an dungeon.
But that don't mean TR is actually good. Indeed, if you think about it, you need to admit that, in some way, TR is "too much".
Nerf is not the solution, and if you read my posts, you will see that I stand against this idea.
But some tweaks could make TR at the same time more balanced in PvP and still able to keep his place in PvE, but maybe in a more "skilled" and usefull way, instead of the kinda "dead-brain" LB spammer style we often see nowadays.
Nope. TR are supposed to be fast moving, and that wasn't what was happening in this time. 2 dodges that can't be chained were definitely not enough.
A reduction, yes, but going back to the old system ? That would just send us bach to the time were dodging was nearly a waste of time, just a way to dodge damage while loosing 4 seconds coming back to the fight, as it was at the same time too short to really send you far from a dangerous enemy and too long to still be in melee range.
dohgoh =>
Yes, TR is efficient, for the first time since more than a year, but that do not mean it is well balanced, even from a PvE perspective.
Those "nerfer" are an annoyance, but some well planed tuning can't hurt.
I remember mod 2. at that time, even a 17/18k TR wasn't able to find a group for VT while 11,5k CW does.
Hell... I don't even know how many hours I have spend spamming lfg, connecting 30mn before DJ event and stoping only 30mn after the DJ event had ended... What a nightmare.
Friends were the only way to do an dungeon.
But that don't mean TR is actually good. Indeed, if you think about it, you need to admit that, in some way, TR is "too much".
Nerf is not the solution, and if you read my posts, you will see that I stand against this idea.
But some tweaks could make TR at the same time more balanced in PvP and still able to keep his place in PvE, but maybe in a more "skilled" and usefull way, instead of the kinda "dead-brain" LB spammer style we often see nowadays.
Conclusion : Tr need more tweaking
good game !
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
tweaking =/= nerf
That is the only thing I am affaid of.
Nerf solve noting, and I am bored of those people who ask for nerf.
c1k4ml3kc3 =>
First let me tell you that, as a player who have a TR as main character, I strongly agree with the need of a rework. But you clearly complain about symptoms, and not about the decease itself.
As a player who plays a CW and has a lot of great TR friends, I do state that any person with 13k-14k GS playing as a TR with approx 3-4k Power can outmatch a 20-22K gs with 13k Power and whatnot. This is a fact as evident in the play-troughs throughout the server and specifically in GG pvp. This is an issue which needs to be adressed and the class wasn't made like this, it was reworked into this meaning that it's not a default state and it's a work in progress. Since this is a FORUM I have full right to address this issue and I don't see why is this of a concern to you, you'll still dominate in PVP content flawlessly. There's a difference between Skill and OP. I value skilled players, not people who can't even read English and yet dominate with TR 21 : 0. So, spare me of that nonsense.
About TR unable to stealth if they are in sight, it is really hard to imagine. For example, on hotenow (might be a wrong spelling), if you stand on north side you can see player on south side, so, when will the TR ba allowed to stealth.
No, you can add restriction, like the need for a feat, or this kind of thing, but the hability to stealth when things became awkward is what make a rogue efficient in most game. We are squishy melee, but we can leave when want...
It's a suggestion to make TR being unable to go into stealth once they're caught in plain sight. Most of Stealthy playing in many games require a certain time to pass until the |stealth meter| becomes 100% or so. A TR being able to dodge, go into stealth whenever he pleases, cast smoke bombs, stun players for min 5 sec, SLOW them up so that they can't dodge-out from the smoke bomb, while also being on the entirely different place of the map is what I'd call extremely unbalanced and way too dangerous. It's not a wonder that so many people suddenly started playing as a TR for PVP. My TR friends dislike this particular fact since it doesn't really require skill now to kill anyone, it takes a bit of tryouts. call them prideful, but they're correct. If suddenly CWs become super epic stunners, while also going into stealth, while also being able to cast spells almost instantaneously and while also being able to disallow you to use any magic or to roll out, you'd have such a great qq at them. We already suffer greatly in PVE because most of our Control-based spells got nerfed thanks to the PVP qq.
as for the Stealth, yes it's unreasonable to hide in plain sight. If you have a problem with that, sorry. I wouldn't mind that a TR hides behind a particular area until he vanishes and then he'd have like 10-15 sec for stabby stabby time. But this is not the case since they play
- CC role
- DPS role
- Mute role
- Runner role
- Ganker role
- 1v5 role
I don't know any other class that can manage to do all of this at once so don't sell me your ideas about how things can't or wont work since you're obviously quite subjected to your own class and you wouldn't like to change playstyle.
The correct sentence would be "too mutch at the same time". Rogue are polyvalent dirty fighter. THe problem is that a particular build should be required to make TR efficient in something, aka "stealth troller", "dirty warrior" and "assassin". That is not what happen here.
I see Trs being a success on every single role with Sharandar gear or Bi gear or whatever they wear. Obviously SKILL comes before the Gear, but then again problem's with the class being quite lucrative at everything.
Lantern => yes, indeed it suck. They should make something to counter stealth. Something that not everyone choose to use, in order to keep it balanced, but something that worst the try. It can also be a particular class encounter. But indeed, that could be an interesting mechanic, assuming not every player would have it : else it simply ban TR from PvP.
Thank you.
About their damage, stuns... well, that is TR's job, we simply use what we have. But anyway, the perma-daze scoundrel have been nerfed to ground, so, prey for the new perma-daze-parma-stealth saboteur (stealth is just for crits) that will soon make you cry...
Hey, you asked for nerf, you get it, and now you will discover that asking for a rework would have been a better idea... but it is already too late. (by you, I don't mean you, I mean the community).
Oh now, you don't tell me that you use what you have lol as if it's a poor, poor TR. That's not the issue, the issue is that it's OP. I wouldn't mind a 22k GS TR being OP killer, I like TRs to be KILLERS as ASSASSINS, but what we have now is ridiculous to see in PVP.
I never asked for any nerf, I'm not an avid PVP player and I suck in PVP, but then again when I see 1v5 killing them off as if they're bugs while also stunning them, dazing them, slowing them down, poking them, one-hit killing them - that means it's wrong. Take that as you please, it won't change my mind that TRs should receive a proper nerf or a proper rework of how they use STAMINA. This is my biggest issue, too much rolling around.
About itc : well, we are a weak but evasive melee class, at least on the paper. ITC can be tuned, but actually, it fit the TR's style : easy to kill when you grab him, but not so easy to grab. That is not the main problem.
I never even landed a single hit. better yet, five of us never landed a single hit on a TR who had 1300 deflection chance and around 3.4k power. And yet, he kills us all. If you think that's normal PvP gameplay, don't be surprised to see even more TRs coming around.
A 12 seconds cooldown ? And you call it "long" ? How lucky you are... For TR 15s is a regular cooldown, and most powerfull habilities need an even longer cooldown (by powerfull I mean 8000 single target damage).
For a GG gameplay it's long and, yes, it's the only viable encounter against the stealthy TRs. Given that I'm dead in a manner of secconds, without Steal Time there's nothing I can do to prevent a TR from throwing knives at me from stealth and/or killing me instantaneously. Other spells have a huge CD as well. And, yes, it's a big CD, so don't sell me your idea of a CD again since you obviously have no idea how ridiculous and even ludicrous it is to play a CW against a TR. In fact, I urge you to try for the fun of it, let's see how long you'll remain alive and whether it's supposed to "be like that". Be my guest and then talk about CD.
The problem is that you see something that seems too efficient for your taste and ask for a nerf, but what you don't know is that you are nerfing a consequence of the real problem, and the problem itself. That mean that it will NEVER work.
You will simply move the problem to something else until TR had nothing left because stupid adjustment have been done with a so short sight... And then TR became useless and need a buff... But the buff is also a short sight one and the circle restart...
It's BORING !
I don't care what you think as a TR player since you obviously don't have any clue just how unsatisfying it is to play as a CW in PVP who, mind if I add, have been nerfed beyond recognition control-wise, so I guess that I do have some right since I had to compensate for the PVP qq even though I'm not a PVP player but it affected me on a PVE level, and given the situation I state that it's pretty much spot on - TRs do need a nerf since most of the DPS is PIERCING meaning that they achieve much more with much less, so don't sell me, once more, your idea about what that might produce. Apparently, nobody cares for the consequences at all as evident nor can anyone predict the consequences, but at least we can write what's a problem. If you want a constructive TR discussion you'd need to talk with pro TR pvpplayers who'll tell you whether or not TR's OP, but then again it's so hard to state that the class's OP and see the results because you invested a lot of gameplay and you like to think it's your "skill".
THING IS, it's not a skill anymore and that's a problem.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I had the pleasure to test some more..with a friend TR.
Me ( full Mythical/rank 12) and him basic..just purple artifacts ,and rank 7-8.
Regarding my damage..was like nothing compared to the TR.
What i see is :
TR mod 6 have :
Same incredibile move speed..if he dodges u cant catch him..even mounted.
Same ITC whenever i menage to CC him , so he easy escapes Dangerous CC and repeat stealth and etc.
Same Daze.
Incredible Damage ( 2 hits .>Rarely 3 hits till it kills me).
ON GWF i can tank better ), but then its the problem with Move Speed , if i CC him he will use ITC to dodge away and enter perma mode.
So my question is : Mod 5 was not enough ??? Did players not offer feedbacks and everything towards TR ?
Mod 6 will be a TR feast ?
Im not tryng to troll , im tryng to find the Logic in all this.
My Feedback would be :
ITC keep deflect , keep duration and CD, But remove the CC immunity ( not fair to be CC'ed then instantly escape CC and immune to it for 5 seconds .
Restore the Old Dodges , The range size of dodge is to Big.
Do something with the dazes , add higher CD or something.
May the Bacon Bless.
With all my respect, you dunno what u are talking about.
TR move speed is provinient from class feats and feats.
As you have unstopable, cc resistance feat, damange imunity feat as gwf, we have itc.. the only defensive encounter/feat from TR.
High damange is solved in mod 6 with the genial idea from the devs, rly, that will balance everything, Stat and Lv Cap! As a gwf for example, u can get 150k HP with the new set and constitution on max, and a top TR full damange focus can do max of 90k on the shocking execution, the MINIMUN HP as gwf with the new set would be 100k as a pvp player rly weak, so even the weakiest player wouldnt be one hitted anymore. (as my calcs, TR damange/enemy HP is reduced by 30% in some cases)
The TR is a class in mod 6 that have low armor pen, doing damange against high DR players most of piercing damange provenient from feats or with a lot of pacience, and, im talking about lv 70 players.. not the lv 60 players that have stats increased in IWD and do 2x the normal damange...
They nerfd the scoundrel and exect on next mod, making dazes shorter and SoD only proc on encounters, that was a nice deal to balance too in my opinion. Sabos will have the same mechanic but as i said, it will be a class that will suffer against the new high control/damange classes as GF mounstrous damange and HR mounstrous control, its not the same saboteur anymore..
So everything u said there is just the opinion of someone that dunno how the class work and dont follow the updates.
piejal =>
they have added modification to TR based on some aspect contested by player.
Also, it is difficult to balance for now. Our power will be reduced and our HP will get a "little" boost", so, it is hard to tell if TR will still be impossible to manage.
They add a lot of modification, let's see how it change the game, and then think for well balanced adjustments. And not nerf, the last time they'd nerfed the TR, we were OP, and we become the useless class that no one want in it's party. During mod2, a 12k CW or GWF was more powerfull than a 17/18k TR. And players were still not able to understand why we go perma-stealth (witch is impossible today).
But 100% crit change mekanic for encounter and daiky skill, 75% deflc sev and 4 roll dodge time frame is not the answer
0
zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
With all my respect, you dunno what u are talking about.
TR move speed is provinient from class feats and feats.
As you have unstopable, cc resistance feat, damange imunity feat as gwf, we have itc.. the only defensive encounter/feat from TR.
High damange is solved in mod 6 with the genial idea from the devs, rly, that will balance everything, Stat and Lv Cap! As a gwf for example, u can get 150k HP with the new set and constitution on max, and a top TR full damange focus can do max of 90k on the shocking execution, the MINIMUN HP as gwf with the new set would be 100k as a pvp player rly weak, so even the weakiest player wouldnt be one hitted anymore. (as my calcs, TR damange/enemy HP is reduced by 30% in some cases)
The TR is a class in mod 6 that have low armor pen, doing damange against high DR players most of piercing damange provenient from feats or with a lot of pacience, and, im talking about lv 70 players.. not the lv 60 players that have stats increased in IWD and do 2x the normal damange...
They nerfd the scoundrel and exect on next mod, making dazes shorter and SoD only proc on encounters, that was a nice deal to balance too in my opinion. Sabos will have the same mechanic but as i said, it will be a class that will suffer against the new high control/damange classes as GF mounstrous damange and HR mounstrous control, its not the same saboteur anymore..
So everything u said there is just the opinion of someone that dunno how the class work and dont follow the updates.
Good luck with your GWF.
Cya.
And gwf still wont do even 1/10 tr dmg due to his stacking (dis)ability.
Comments
They are single and aoe masters now. I dont see single target in PvE. They spam PotB, SB, dazing... I see their single target power slotted only at boss. But its ok. My 13k exe has 11k PotB, 100% crit chance in stealth, SoD... When my 22k GWF has 3k base damage on FLS, NSF and other aoe powers. I havent 100% crit, devs took deep gash from us long time ago. TRs have better AoE than class who supposed be an AoE class.
Easy to be OP when other classes like GWF or SW (but only in PvP) are HAMSTER. Healing DC is meat, DPS DC is lottery, good CW still can win against medium skilled TR. GF have to be skilled and geared to kill TR, same as HR.
tenacity should be respectetd by every damage or encounter, so at least you have options espec. for defensive classes and classes that have no dodges
that would make things better and force player to invest into Tenacity, can´t stand it any more watching all these chars with zero teneacity trolling in PVP -> make brackets, same you did for kessels retreat, just replace balck-ice-resistance with tenacitiy
TR don't move when they use bloodpath, making your observation perfectly useless. They are teleported from target to target and don't chose where they go.
Also, that is how the power work : low damage, but multiple procs on different targets if there is a group, on a single target if you are alone. The problem is that in stealth all hits are crits (which do not happen without stealth), but also that heroic feats can improve the efficiency. Some of thoses feats are glitched, but bloodpath itself is WaI.
tenacity : Ok, fine. i agree
ok, but that will introduce the need for multiple lvl of PvP. Some for PvP-stuffed players, and some for more casual players, or for those who still don't own gear with tenacity. And that is not an incoming function.
Conclusion : Bad idea for now.
than change this bloods hit-daily a bit , limit the hits on one target (max 3-4 times) since it is spammed like hell (a daily lol)
--> its an aoe spell, so it should deal aoe and not be a nevermissing "single-autotarget-noskill" - daily
no it just need to spend 10-20k ad-->i started with blue stuff with DC , tons of hp and tenacity on it, better than purple T1 set
read about builds, setup etc before doing PVP and just troll arround and make it most depremising for everyone else, only wanting some daily AD
that is one of these mysteries in NW i can´t understand, lots of people queue for PVP every day, but are too lazy to invest 30min of reading and 20k ad to buff their char, only argument " Sooorrrryyyy, I need to earn the glory to get stuff blabla"
thats BS, go GG PVE , go GG instances, buy it from the AH (blue purple green) chose, than come and take part
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
Now I should defend myself because of false accusations? I don’t think so.
SW is capable of killing a TR you must only know how to play him properly. I saw some good SWs that kicked me, DOT me and then Laser me to death while make short sprints to escape my duelist flurry.
But like I said in the same post the TR need some adjustment but the PvP Community is very aggressive like a 12 year old child losing in COD it simply ignored that part of the same post.* How should anyone take the PvP Community of this game serious if you not discuss the topic and simply spam the Forum with hilarious demands to overpower the own class without a sign of common sense.
A better design for the TR in PvP would be if he is out of stealth he is vulnerable like a candle in a hurricane. The basic tenacity for this class could be lowered and as I said before the deflect severity should be lowered (-25% to 50% instead of 75%) in addition take away one dodge. The class would be fine.
You could still go on Scoundrel to endure more damage but it would be hard to face-tank stuff like a GWF in PvP which role is clearly to stay at front line and cut through the enemies like a hot knife through butter.
This change would not greatly affect the PvE because the Damage as Striker Class is untouched and one dodge less is not that bad (most of the TR-Tester from the old module said that it is too much dodge) and -25% deflect severity is reasonable because the TR can easily get 40-50% Deflect to give a class such an huge amount of deflect chance AND deflect severity is simply a game breaker.
The power hadn't received more damage for mod5, it is simply the feats that make it OP.
You want to heal the symptoms instead of the disease.
=> look to be removed from mod6
Indeed, there is some stuff, but regular players can't afford two stuff. They would need enchants*2, wich is expensive, and if you play mostly PvE and only sometimes go in PvP, that is a lost of AD.
Or else you add the same thing for PvE. Player who wear pvp stuff with tenacity are not allowed in PvE. Why should PvE player looking for an occasional match be penalized compared to PvP player looking for an occasional dungeon ?
PVE is the biggest part ingame, the content is not challenging for any person, it doesn´t matter how you go there,
btw everyone has PVE gear, noone must use PVP gear at all, if he does he probably is blamed or ignored in groupchannel in case of underperforming
but since i get mixed lots of time with players that don´t really care about PVP it is for sure a matter, and could be solved very easy since most ppl will ignore the fact that they destroy hole games, 2-3 brackets that include tenacity and GS f.e. easy
at least , i don´t care about how this BB-damage and others is going to be reduced, the thread wants to discuss it, so i do (would be sufficient when respecting tenacity)
Encounter and daily must proc depend on crit stat change
Reduce movespeed in steath mode at least 20%
nerf roll
and we good to go mod 6
What is wrong with the picture?
I suggest this :
If a TR goes into Stealth, make him unable to do so again unless he's not being seen by anyone. He should not be able to go into stealth in plain sight, that's ridiculous.
If two or more people are around and if TR moves, he should become slightly visible to the players. It shouldn't be possible for 1 TR to go solo against seven players and kill them all with barely 4k Power and 2k Arpen. There's no logic in that.
TR's have TOO many options to evade attacks, and very, very frequently. Not to mention smoke, daze et cetera. All of this makes them viable to play at ALL PLACES at once - Poker, ganker, offence, defence. There's not a role that TR can't play, while it's different for every other class around.
Lantern of Revelation does horse **** against TR's stealth. TR simply vanishes again in a manner of 2-3 sec, and whilst visible will just roll around and DAZE, DAMAGE with AOE and seriously annoy people and then stand on a particular place laughing at others faces. Again, no logic in that and doesn't make it a worthwhile experience.
TR's have Impossible to catch spell which is seriously overpovered and extremely frequently used.
I speak this as a CW who couldn't do anything with a 12 sec cooldown Steal Time, nor any other spell for that matter. Imagine a GG game where 90% players are TRs, usually a bad, bad thing.
Ergo, please nerf this bullcrap since any **** can play TRs now and make tremendous progress with little to no effort at all. Seriously OP class in PvP.
lolol this is a burning ship in a hurrican with a drunken captain , ship´s mast broken, rudder locked
have a nice trip to isle of mod 6
I would not mind half of the ideas you have suggested here..
However, since tr is visible once they attack.. I don't care for any of your suggestions.
Your entire make TR visible is what brought on the daze and one shot wars.
I told you it would happen yet you still cried about it.
Each time you cry about TR and devs make changes to assist your short comings, TR's adapt to something way worse than what you had before.
When will you learn?
It's not just TR, this happens with all classes people cry about.
make the rogue visible by attacking at least 4 seconds, he´s got enough dodges, itc, high deflect+deflect severity, faster movement like horse etc. --> all of these are redicules capabilites compared to other classes
beeing permastealth is also redicules by far, first game i play a class can perma hide lol, big big BS, tune down the stealthbar a bit
again having most survivability, most damage, most cc, most movement ? what do you want on top, an nuclear-bomb to clean the hole playground at once?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
About stealth, well, that is the all class which cause this problem :
-making damage => require stealth
-having a good speed => require stealth
-survive => require stealth
TR player simply use their tool. They don't abuse on this point, they simply play their class as it is intented to be played.
Also, speaking about itc, it's old incarnation (pre-mod5) was the capstone of non-stealth build, but they reworked it, obliging us to use it only in combinationwith stealth-based builds. Blame the devs for their unconsidered rework, not player for using what they have.
That is not what allow perma-stealth. Stealth last 6s, it is our feats, armor set bonus and power that allow perma
c1k4ml3kc3 =>
First let me tell you that, as a player who have a TR as main character, I strongly agree with the need of a rework. But you clearly complain about symptoms, and not about the decease itself.
About TR unable to stealth if they are in sight, it is really hard to imagine. For example, on hotenow (might be a wrong spelling), if you stand on north side you can see player on south side, so, when will the TR ba allowed to stealth.
No, you can add restriction, like the need for a feat, or this kind of thing, but the hability to stealth when things became awkward is what make a rogue efficient in most game. We are squishy melee, but we can leave when want...
The correct sentence would be "too mutch at the same time". Rogue are polyvalent dirty fighter. THe problem is that a particular build should be required to make TR efficient in something, aka "stealth troller", "dirty warrior" and "assassin". That is not what happen here.
Lantern => yes, indeed it suck. They should make something to counter stealth. Something that not everyone choose to use, in order to keep it balanced, but something that worst the try. It can also be a particular class encounter. But indeed, that could be an interesting mechanic, assuming not every player would have it : else it simply ban TR from PvP.
About their damage, stuns... well, that is TR's job, we simply use what we have. But anyway, the perma-daze scoundrel have been nerfed to ground, so, prey for the new perma-daze-parma-stealth saboteur (stealth is just for crits) that will soon make you cry...
Hey, you asked for nerf, you get it, and now you will discover that asking for a rework would have been a better idea... but it is already too late. (by you, I don't mean you, I mean the community).
About itc : well, we are a weak but evasive melee class, at least on the paper. ITC can be tuned, but actually, it fit the TR's style : easy to kill when you grab him, but not so easy to grab. That is not the main problem.
A 12 seconds cooldown ? And you call it "long" ? How lucky you are... For TR 15s is a regular cooldown, and most powerfull habilities need an even longer cooldown (by powerfull I mean 8000 single target damage).
The problem is that you see something that seems too efficient for your taste and ask for a nerf, but what you don't know is that you are nerfing a consequence of the real problem, and the problem itself. That mean that it will NEVER work.
You will simply move the problem to something else until TR had nothing left because stupid adjustment have been done with a so short sight... And then TR became useless and need a buff... But the buff is also a short sight one and the circle restart...
It's BORING !
demonmonger
+1
the problem is that we know were trouble come from, but we can't roar as strong as those dead-brain wo cry for nerf without any consideration for the monster they are creating.
I always laught when I think about these strange concept : "if you are stealth, you are visible"... What an incredible idea...
did dev read forum feedback and test how TR perform OPness in mod 6?
If not, all of this is pointless mod 6 pvp gonna be dead "again"
they have added modification to TR based on some aspect contested by player.
Also, it is difficult to balance for now. Our power will be reduced and our HP will get a "little" boost", so, it is hard to tell if TR will still be impossible to manage.
They add a lot of modification, let's see how it change the game, and then think for well balanced adjustments. And not nerf, the last time they'd nerfed the TR, we were OP, and we become the useless class that no one want in it's party. During mod2, a 12k CW or GWF was more powerfull than a 17/18k TR. And players were still not able to understand why we go perma-stealth (witch is impossible today).
he can hit then run away whenever he feel threatned .
A reduction, yes, but going back to the old system ? That would just send us bach to the time were dodging was nearly a waste of time, just a way to dodge damage while loosing 4 seconds coming back to the fight, as it was at the same time too short to really send you far from a dangerous enemy and too long to still be in melee range.
dohgoh =>
Yes, TR is efficient, for the first time since more than a year, but that do not mean it is well balanced, even from a PvE perspective.
Those "nerfer" are an annoyance, but some well planed tuning can't hurt.
I remember mod 2. at that time, even a 17/18k TR wasn't able to find a group for VT while 11,5k CW does.
Hell... I don't even know how many hours I have spend spamming lfg, connecting 30mn before DJ event and stoping only 30mn after the DJ event had ended... What a nightmare.
Friends were the only way to do an dungeon.
But that don't mean TR is actually good. Indeed, if you think about it, you need to admit that, in some way, TR is "too much".
Nerf is not the solution, and if you read my posts, you will see that I stand against this idea.
But some tweaks could make TR at the same time more balanced in PvP and still able to keep his place in PvE, but maybe in a more "skilled" and usefull way, instead of the kinda "dead-brain" LB spammer style we often see nowadays.
when u attack u daze and go back to stealth whats not perma about it? lmao
Conclusion : Tr need more tweaking
good game !
That is the only thing I am affaid of.
Nerf solve noting, and I am bored of those people who ask for nerf.
As a player who plays a CW and has a lot of great TR friends, I do state that any person with 13k-14k GS playing as a TR with approx 3-4k Power can outmatch a 20-22K gs with 13k Power and whatnot. This is a fact as evident in the play-troughs throughout the server and specifically in GG pvp. This is an issue which needs to be adressed and the class wasn't made like this, it was reworked into this meaning that it's not a default state and it's a work in progress. Since this is a FORUM I have full right to address this issue and I don't see why is this of a concern to you, you'll still dominate in PVP content flawlessly. There's a difference between Skill and OP. I value skilled players, not people who can't even read English and yet dominate with TR 21 : 0. So, spare me of that nonsense.
It's a suggestion to make TR being unable to go into stealth once they're caught in plain sight. Most of Stealthy playing in many games require a certain time to pass until the |stealth meter| becomes 100% or so. A TR being able to dodge, go into stealth whenever he pleases, cast smoke bombs, stun players for min 5 sec, SLOW them up so that they can't dodge-out from the smoke bomb, while also being on the entirely different place of the map is what I'd call extremely unbalanced and way too dangerous. It's not a wonder that so many people suddenly started playing as a TR for PVP. My TR friends dislike this particular fact since it doesn't really require skill now to kill anyone, it takes a bit of tryouts. call them prideful, but they're correct. If suddenly CWs become super epic stunners, while also going into stealth, while also being able to cast spells almost instantaneously and while also being able to disallow you to use any magic or to roll out, you'd have such a great qq at them. We already suffer greatly in PVE because most of our Control-based spells got nerfed thanks to the PVP qq.
as for the Stealth, yes it's unreasonable to hide in plain sight. If you have a problem with that, sorry. I wouldn't mind that a TR hides behind a particular area until he vanishes and then he'd have like 10-15 sec for stabby stabby time. But this is not the case since they play
- CC role
- DPS role
- Mute role
- Runner role
- Ganker role
- 1v5 role
I don't know any other class that can manage to do all of this at once so don't sell me your ideas about how things can't or wont work since you're obviously quite subjected to your own class and you wouldn't like to change playstyle.
I see Trs being a success on every single role with Sharandar gear or Bi gear or whatever they wear. Obviously SKILL comes before the Gear, but then again problem's with the class being quite lucrative at everything.
Thank you.
Oh now, you don't tell me that you use what you have lol as if it's a poor, poor TR. That's not the issue, the issue is that it's OP. I wouldn't mind a 22k GS TR being OP killer, I like TRs to be KILLERS as ASSASSINS, but what we have now is ridiculous to see in PVP.
I never asked for any nerf, I'm not an avid PVP player and I suck in PVP, but then again when I see 1v5 killing them off as if they're bugs while also stunning them, dazing them, slowing them down, poking them, one-hit killing them - that means it's wrong. Take that as you please, it won't change my mind that TRs should receive a proper nerf or a proper rework of how they use STAMINA. This is my biggest issue, too much rolling around.
I never even landed a single hit. better yet, five of us never landed a single hit on a TR who had 1300 deflection chance and around 3.4k power. And yet, he kills us all. If you think that's normal PvP gameplay, don't be surprised to see even more TRs coming around.
For a GG gameplay it's long and, yes, it's the only viable encounter against the stealthy TRs. Given that I'm dead in a manner of secconds, without Steal Time there's nothing I can do to prevent a TR from throwing knives at me from stealth and/or killing me instantaneously. Other spells have a huge CD as well. And, yes, it's a big CD, so don't sell me your idea of a CD again since you obviously have no idea how ridiculous and even ludicrous it is to play a CW against a TR. In fact, I urge you to try for the fun of it, let's see how long you'll remain alive and whether it's supposed to "be like that". Be my guest and then talk about CD.
I don't care what you think as a TR player since you obviously don't have any clue just how unsatisfying it is to play as a CW in PVP who, mind if I add, have been nerfed beyond recognition control-wise, so I guess that I do have some right since I had to compensate for the PVP qq even though I'm not a PVP player but it affected me on a PVE level, and given the situation I state that it's pretty much spot on - TRs do need a nerf since most of the DPS is PIERCING meaning that they achieve much more with much less, so don't sell me, once more, your idea about what that might produce. Apparently, nobody cares for the consequences at all as evident nor can anyone predict the consequences, but at least we can write what's a problem. If you want a constructive TR discussion you'd need to talk with pro TR pvpplayers who'll tell you whether or not TR's OP, but then again it's so hard to state that the class's OP and see the results because you invested a lot of gameplay and you like to think it's your "skill".
THING IS, it's not a skill anymore and that's a problem.
With all my respect, you dunno what u are talking about.
TR move speed is provinient from class feats and feats.
As you have unstopable, cc resistance feat, damange imunity feat as gwf, we have itc.. the only defensive encounter/feat from TR.
High damange is solved in mod 6 with the genial idea from the devs, rly, that will balance everything, Stat and Lv Cap! As a gwf for example, u can get 150k HP with the new set and constitution on max, and a top TR full damange focus can do max of 90k on the shocking execution, the MINIMUN HP as gwf with the new set would be 100k as a pvp player rly weak, so even the weakiest player wouldnt be one hitted anymore. (as my calcs, TR damange/enemy HP is reduced by 30% in some cases)
The TR is a class in mod 6 that have low armor pen, doing damange against high DR players most of piercing damange provenient from feats or with a lot of pacience, and, im talking about lv 70 players.. not the lv 60 players that have stats increased in IWD and do 2x the normal damange...
They nerfd the scoundrel and exect on next mod, making dazes shorter and SoD only proc on encounters, that was a nice deal to balance too in my opinion. Sabos will have the same mechanic but as i said, it will be a class that will suffer against the new high control/damange classes as GF mounstrous damange and HR mounstrous control, its not the same saboteur anymore..
So everything u said there is just the opinion of someone that dunno how the class work and dont follow the updates.
Good luck with your GWF.
Cya.
But 100% crit change mekanic for encounter and daiky skill, 75% deflc sev and 4 roll dodge time frame is not the answer
And gwf still wont do even 1/10 tr dmg due to his stacking (dis)ability.
U know nothing.
(Sin)cerely
Kain