tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
c1k4ml3kc3 =>
I will not list everything, because that would be useless.
When I see your last post, I think that what cause our misunderstanding is not a complete difference of opinion, but a difference of words.
We might disagree because we don't have the same approach, but we are clearly not opponents.
Maybe that is just my trend to underline every details in others people's argumentation that deserve me sometimes.
I stand against any "nerf" to TR, because last time they have nerfed this class, we were at the top (too powerful, indeed), but we get kicked to the ground. It was impossible to play PvP without spending your all life in stealth and trying to join a group for PvE would simply lead nowhere cause NO ONE would want TR in party.
About Mod5 TR, this is indeed a complete failure (and is one of the reason that keep me far from PvP for the moment), but this failure allow TR-players to go in PvE groups again, without spending 2/3 hours looking for a place in a group to rush a 15/20mn dungeon because 11k CW are more efficient than 19k TR.
Tweaking TR don't mean one or two adjustments, it mean "rebuild from scratch", at least in my opinion, because that is the only thing that will work. For me, a rebuild is not a nerf.
But a simple nerf will not be efficient. Example, if you simply remove executioners damage to avoid one-shot, you make this path useless again in PvE. That is not what I call a progress.
Let me explain what I mean when I say that people complain about symptoms.
Actually, nearly everything in TR need stealth. Our class feature give so much advantages that it is simply impossible to manage. The problem is that if you reduce this advantage, you soon lead TR to uselessness because it is all he had.
About ITC. It's old incarnation was efficient in PvE, used in PvP-perma-stealth, and the cap-stone of alternative-non-perma-PvP-build.
The new one is useless in PvE, make non-perma impossible, and can only help PvP half-perma/perma.
They have nerfed, but does it lead somewhere ? No, because the less affected thing is the one that needed to be nerfed. NERF=FAIL
About damage, I remember that, a few weeks ago, a guy was asking for LB's rough damages to be "nerfed" to 15000 at max, and refused to trust me when I told him that LB's rough damages were about 8000 and that the origin of those amazingly big numbers was only a combination of feats and stuff.
This guy was extreme, but a lot of people discuss in the same way, making it impossible to try to find a balance that could please most peoples. Is it really so surprising that I sometimes become enraged just by reading "nerf" somewhere ?
you don't tell me that you use what you have lol as if it's a poor, poor TR
You misunderstand me. What I say is that, except maybe about dodge (I have already give my position on it, I will not start again), everything need stealth to be really efficient. Stealth is too much powerful, but that is mostly all we have, and after the scoundrel's nerf, it will be even worse. Again, I don't say that the live scoundrel is balanced, because it is not, but it will go from not really efficient in PvE and OP in PvP to not really efficient in PvE and completely eclipsed by others path in PvP. That is not an efficient balance.
The problem was not the length of the daze, it was the concept of the perma-daze TR. The nerf change nothing but the feats of the one who will be OP.
Steal Time
Hey, don't be so terrible... I wasn't blaming anything here, it was mostly to say that any hability get a cooldown adapted to it's efficiency. I don't play CW myself. I had one, in the past, but I never found much fun playing this class, both in PvE and PvP. I have deleted him month ago. Well... afterward, my words were certainly badly chosen, and I would like you to excuse me, if you agree.
THING IS, it's not a skill anymore and that's a problem.
I agree with you, and that is why I say that TR need a rework. But nerf, at least in the sense I am understanding it, is not a solution, but rather an incoming come-back to the old Mod2 TR, but without stealth this time, as it had been modified.
I know that sometime I can be quite agressive when I defend my position, but when I see people who simply want the TR to be send back to mod3 while keeping the stealth modifications to "balance" perma-stealth, I am scared. I have already spend a year playing an underprivileged class, and I don't want to start again.
But as long as people want to discuss and try to find a real solution to solve the problem, I stand with them. You can't imagine how many hours I am spending thoses lasts week, looking at what cause troubles, trying to design an efficient balance using neverwinter's schematics of powers/feats/buff... I am not really active on the English forum, but I can tell you that, on the French one, most people know me for standing against what is broken in my favorite class, should it be in it's favor or not. I had stand against perma-stealth, And I am preparing my tools to stand efficiently against the Mod5 TR (I do have started already, but let's say that I prepare a big argumentation with suggestions of change). The only thing that delayed my argumentation was the incoming mod6 and it's major gameplay-rework. I have also tried to give advice to non-TR-playing peoples, some tricks that can't exactly save them, but help them the time for a solution to be implemented in-game. Some listen and try to use what they learn at their advantage, some simply insult me just because I say that my main is a TR.
Too much people ask for a simple execution of the class, asking not only for balancing what TR have, but removing everything (or at least removing what they think the most OP without any long-range plan, just hitting the nerf button each time something seams not WaI in their opinion). That is what I stand against, and if that is not what you are asking, then, I am with you. Let's Balance TR together...
And gwf still wont do even 1/10 tr dmg due to his stacking (dis)ability.
U know nothing.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
They do more than scoundrel with similar gear/skill, but scoundrel is one of the lowest single target damage classes in the game -- especially against control immune targets being behind cw/sw/hr/gwf/dc.
Of course scoundrel also got a recent nerf in preview rendering it at a serious disadvantage in PvP and I suspect the major reason was because of the excessive crying on the forums and misinformation and misidentification about which Tr one had encountered. Interestingly enough, the specialized daze TR will now generally be worse than the other tree's due to the fact that the feat and capstone now make the default powers worse than without the feat/capstone. Silly when you think on it.
since beeing now that handicapped not beeing able to use their funny broken permadaze, hopping all time arroud the target, and since it would be a real big challenge for the average TR player to go on playing scoundrel, i can´t wait for the armies of Sab-TR´s,that gonna make PVP very ugly in mod 6
i fear its gonna be worse than ever, cause most classes just can stand and trie to feel the TR, before the impact comes
There was no permadaze from the scoundrel, but you are correct in that all scoundrels will be forced to play sabs (sab = better dazes, far greater damage, far greater stealth vs some random short dazes for the scoundrel).
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
That is why I say that when cryptic nerf it solve nothing.
this develloper is obviously not known for quick and pragmatic solutions for issues like this
thats what i learned in short time sticking (much to my regret) with this game
we all exchange viruell blows due to this, but the problem is as everybody knows, the company and players who intend to abuse these unbalanced classes proven by TR´s springing up like musrooms in the last month
so there is a way to deal with, but since company is ******ed in bringing on solutions, it would be up to the player base
but since playerbase is....... it is like it is --> 1000s of TR´s running arround, taking the "easy way" using exploits as hard as they can and spamming redicules videos on youtube
nothing more to say about good will and sense of fairness, think about your motives going PVP: "lets bash some pugs and feel one time in live a bit superior" ? poor human kind
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
poor human kind
That is also what I feel.
But be honest, those who play TR this way today are the one witch were playing CW or GWF yesterday, and the one that will play the next OP class tomorrow.
Let's ignore them and try to do something with peoples who don't care about being OP and only want to have a good time on Neverwinter.
Cryptic remind me Bioware on Mass Effect 3 multiplayer. We tell them a weapon is OP, they nerf it so any guy using it is called "n**b", we tell them something is not efficient enough, they buff it and make it so that every player will want to use it.
The reason I chose to play a wk scoundrel instead of an MI exe/sab this module was because of how I saw the other trees as over performing or outright broken in PvP. The scoundrel was easily the weaker tree. It had a long daze, but no more than the saboteur. It had some effective random short term dazes. It could be a great annoyance and a good team play TR but it had it's disadvantages too, and these were far lower damage and limited stealth (being visible almost 95% of the time). For all the crying one hears about the scoundrel, I wish the leaderboard stats (not that they are entirely reliable but since they are used as criticism) could include a breakdown of scoundrel/executioner/saboteur so people could really see what is what. I don't like the solution that was taken by the devs of nerfing the weakest tree so that it is now weaker than the others at the only thing it was even as good at as the others.
its same with nerfing a class that is already at the bottom, decision are irrational, customer is clueless
Troll detected
In dev history of doing a rework they do it poorly and make broken mekanic just like TR now
if you askiñg about rework then HR,DC,GWF,SW need a rework as well
dev are working at new content and this TR broken thing need a fix asap so pvp not gonna die (again)
nerf is the best option
make 100% crit change mekanic only proc atwill
nerf roll
and we are good to go mod 6
tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
So to save your PvP, you want to kill the PvE of others player ?
Dodge indeed need a little tun-down, exept that it shouldn't became as low as it was before because it wasn't efficient.
But for your "brilliant" concept of :
make 100% crit change mekanic only proc atwill
You would simply remove an important part of TR's damage, but that is what TR is here for. What is 100k or 200k damage against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-dealer, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE (again)
You can't just throw idea this way. The problem we are facing is complex. The TR step on the thread. It is too powerful, but can easely go-back to the abyss where he had spend the last year, if not deeper... And that is not an option.
That is why a solution is not a simple nerf, but a carefull rework.
if you askiñg about rework then HR,DC,GWF,SW need a rework as well
Had someone here said this was false ? Indeed, most class in this game need a balance rework. That do not mean TR don't need it and should simply get nerfed again...
The biggest thing that scares me about TR next module is super high deflect builds. Now that there is no diminishing returns a TR can stack near 100% deflect with a 85% severity.
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
The biggest thing that scares me about TR next module is super high deflect builds. Now that there is no diminishing returns a TR can stack near 100% deflect with a 85% severity.
It will be hard to reach 50% for now, even if you sacrifice DPS, so, nothing to dangerous from those builds actually.
It will need some modules before we can reach 50%.
So to save your PvP, you want to kill the PvE of others player ?
Dodge indeed need a little tun-down, exept that it shouldn't became as low as it was before because it wasn't efficient.
But for your "brilliant" concept of :
You would simply remove an important part of TR's damage, but that is what TR is here for. What is 100k or 200k damage against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-dealer, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE (again)
You can't just throw idea this way. The problem we are facing is complex. The TR step on the thread. It is too powerful, but can easely go-back to the abyss where he had spend the last year, if not deeper... And that is not an option.
That is why a solution is not a simple nerf, but a carefull rework.
Had someone here said this was false ? Indeed, most class in this game need a balance rework. That do not mean TR don't need it and should simply get nerfed again...
Every class get encounter and daily skill crit from RNG crit stat except TR and CW which have 100% crit mekanic
so why TR must get exception? Wanna get burst damage crit from encounter and daily skill? Then stack crit stat it's RNG baby
is it so bad to lost 100% crit change damage lashing blade every 30s?
I was 20k GS HR trapper and got my self lose to 18k GS TR at paingiver
so make 100% crit change only proc atwill will kill TR PVE position? Bite me
Reduce critical severity for all classes in PvP (keep PvE the same). It will reduce the crits mainly from TRs and CW who run EotS, but will allow the game to be played with more skill than just one-shotting from stealth or burst damage.
Furthermore, high critical severity in the early game is not fun or balanced. I see twinked up classes <L60 running greater/perfect vorps. This is ruining the game for early level PvP.
If it is not fun or balanced for the new gamer, they are less likely to continue PvPing, leading to a greater loss to the PvP community.
Reduce critical severity for all classes in PvP (keep PvE the same). It will reduce the crits mainly from TRs and CW who run EotS, but will allow the game to be played with more skill than just one-shotting from stealth or burst damage.
Furthermore, high critical severity in the early game is not fun or balanced. I see twinked up classes <L60 running greater/perfect vorps. This is ruining the game for early level PvP.
If it is not fun or balanced for the new gamer, they are less likely to continue PvPing, leading to a greater loss to the PvP community.
There you wanna fix the symptoms instead of the disease
critical sev in this game is fine because it's "RNG" from crit change stat with max 2.25 with P vorp
make the big gun nuke of a class 100% crit change that lashing blade give +50% crit sev is dead wrong in every way end of story
SW counter a TR and you played since beta daaaam and daaaam again and some sweeet jeesus on top of it.
That is worst scenario when you are bizzy killing somebody else lets see what you can do to them in their worst case scenario.
Dont even try to defend Tr **** in pvp I will destroy you with clear facts and examples if you do am more then tired of how TRs dominate pvp and try to justify that ******ness...
Bad enough it is as it is saying its ok is another thing.................
If you wait for 1 roll (early fight) or 2 roll (after lashing), and catch the TR into a prone (even 21kGS) you can annihilate them. After soulforge, look for a quick at-will kill, or run like hell. Let you CDs come up, drink a potion, charge THROUGH him. Lashing will usually wiff, wait for 1 roll, take your time killing. Keep distance. Always be moving AWAY from him when he's not stealth, and FIND his *** when he is stealth.
IDC what GS the rogue is, if he can't get his 1-shot off from stealth, my 15kSW can annihilate rogues. I do think lashing could be toned down a bit, and the daily as well. But I still think they SHOULD hit hard. With the PvP changes to ArPen, I think TRs will have a lot of trouble.
In dev history of doing a rework they do it poorly and make broken mekanic just like TR now
if you askiñg about rework then HR,DC,GWF,SW need a rework as well
dev are working at new content and this TR broken thing need a fix asap so pvp not gonna die (again)
nerf is the best option
make 100% crit change mekanic only proc atwill
nerf roll
and we are good to go mod 6
Uh, yea.
Like GWF, HR, CW, and now DC/TR.
Once we get "omg nerf GF/SW before it kills pvp", we'll have the complete rotation of dev screwups.
The irony is that TR was already on top once and it was nerfed so bad, they weren't even wanted for PvE.
If you wait for 1 roll (early fight) or 2 roll (after lashing), and catch the TR into a prone (even 21kGS) you can annihilate them. After soulforge, look for a quick at-will kill, or run like hell. Let you CDs come up, drink a potion, charge THROUGH him. Lashing will usually wiff, wait for 1 roll, take your time killing. Keep distance. Always be moving AWAY from him when he's not stealth, and FIND his *** when he is stealth.
IDC what GS the rogue is, if he can't get his 1-shot off from stealth, my 15kSW can annihilate rogues. I do think lashing could be toned down a bit, and the daily as well. But I still think they SHOULD hit hard. With the PvP changes to ArPen, I think TRs will have a lot of trouble.
every TR user always talk about Learn to play
but why other class should do everything perfectly..? can predict TR movement.. use at least 4.1 dolby sound, timing every skill cooldown, use pot, BIS equip for 1 rotate kill a TR, exct..
all TR think they play well their classes but sorry to say your class is OP.. if you lose to non TR class then your skill must be suck badly
So to save your PvP, you want to kill the PvE of others player ?
You would simply remove an important part of TR's damage, but that is what TR is here for. What is 100k or 200k damage against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-dealer, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE (again)
I am a Gf:
What is 45% or 50% DR against boss who hits for 150k ? We are single target defenders, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE.So in conjuction with your excuse about Trs we want 90% Dr please or 150k hps.
I am a CW:
What is 5sec or 6 sec control against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-controller, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE.So in conjuction with your excuse about Trs we want 150% more CC please.
I am a DC:
What is 5k or 10k healing against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-healer, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE.So Dcs should increase their healing by 100%
I am a GWF:
What is 3k CaGI or 4k IBS damage against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-dealer, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE.Our IBS should be buffed by 167,6% please.
i am a HR:
What is 100k or 200k damage against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-dealer, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE.Let split the sky deal 400% more damage please.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^66
Just to see where things would go if we all follow your briliant thesis.
Tired of people that try to defend their pvp opness by bringing in pve.99% of pvpers don't give a dammn for pve.they only remember it when suits them.
Reduce critical severity for all classes in PvP (keep PvE the same). It will reduce the crits mainly from TRs and CW who run EotS, but will allow the game to be played with more skill than just one-shotting from stealth or burst damage.
Furthermore, high critical severity in the early game is not fun or balanced. I see twinked up classes <L60 running greater/perfect vorps. This is ruining the game for early level PvP.
If it is not fun or balanced for the new gamer, they are less likely to continue PvPing, leading to a greater loss to the PvP community.
Actually THE issue here is really just TR getting 100% critical in stealth here. Again TR balancing is NOT that difficult TBH. Its pretty easy to make changes to TR without hurting PVE here is what is needed for balance:
1) Stealth provides a *100% critical strike chance NOT +100%. What this means is it doubles your crit chance. Have 30%? Its now 60% in stealth. Have 50%? Now its 100% in stealth. This reduces the OPness of it early on, still allows PVE TRs who CAN get near 50% crit to have 100% crit - thus hardly affecting PVE DPS at all. This balances PVP ALOT since now TRs cant just ignore crit since they get it for free, it actually benefits them more to stack more crit.
2) Stealth reduces movement speed by 20% as a BASE. TRs have so many good movement speed buffs that can easily make up for this, this also hardly affects PVE at all. If people are complaining due to pvp set bonuses and such, you can always extend the BASE duration of stealth by 1 second to "adjust" for this movement speed reduction - which actually HELPS PVE DPS but this movement speed reduction makes it MUCH more difficult for a TR to BOTH DPS AND avoid damage. Now they have to choose more carefully avoiding damage OR dealing damage but not both.
3) Lashing Blade - the "in stealth bonus" here should be a 75% REDUCED CD RATHER than 50% more severity. This BUFFS the "DPS" of the encounter but reduces the massive burst it offers.
I guess #4 would be fixing Knife's Edge so it only procs off the first attack OR even activation rather than hits. This removes the "insta reset" on encounters that TRs have with BB.
DONE. Buffed TR PVE DPS, adjusted burst damage and tankiness in PVP.
since beeing now that handicapped not beeing able to use their funny broken permadaze, hopping all time arroud the target, and since it would be a real big challenge for the average TR player to go on playing scoundrel, i can´t wait for the armies of Sab-TR´s,that gonna make PVP very ugly in mod 6
i fear its gonna be worse than ever, cause most classes just can stand and trie to feel the TR, before the impact comes
Armies to come ? 51 out of the first 80 on Leaderboard is Tr rest is 11 is Hr 6 is cw 7 dc 4 gwf 1 gf and 0 sw.
I say they are already here and if your saying it gets worse because some of your paths got less OP good luck finding anything but Trs in pvp....
Btw not one non Tr that talked with will stay if Tr rules another module like last one so unless something is done to balance things up rest wont matter much....
Armies to come ? 51 out of the first 80 on Leaderboard is Tr rest is 11 is Hr 6 is cw 7 dc 4 gwf 1 gf and 0 sw.
I say they are already here and if your saying it gets worse because some of your paths got less OP good luck finding anything but Trs in pvp....
btw i am one of that "zero" warlocks and will prepare as good as i can to contest against the 99% of TR>>>>/DC/Hunter/CW , next step is quitting for sure if the ship goes down
Actually THE issue here is really just TR getting 100% critical in stealth here. Again TR balancing is NOT that difficult TBH. Its pretty easy to make changes to TR without hurting PVE here is what is needed for balance:
1) Stealth provides a *100% critical strike chance NOT +100%. What this means is it doubles your crit chance. Have 30%? Its now 60% in stealth. Have 50%? Now its 100% in stealth. This reduces the OPness of it early on, still allows PVE TRs who CAN get near 50% crit to have 100% crit - thus hardly affecting PVE DPS at all. This balances PVP ALOT since now TRs cant just ignore crit since they get it for free, it actually benefits them more to stack more crit.
2) Stealth reduces movement speed by 20% as a BASE. TRs have so many good movement speed buffs that can easily make up for this, this also hardly affects PVE at all. If people are complaining due to pvp set bonuses and such, you can always extend the BASE duration of stealth by 1 second to "adjust" for this movement speed reduction - which actually HELPS PVE DPS but this movement speed reduction makes it MUCH more difficult for a TR to BOTH DPS AND avoid damage. Now they have to choose more carefully avoiding damage OR dealing damage but not both.
3) Lashing Blade - the "in stealth bonus" here should be a 75% REDUCED CD RATHER than 50% more severity. This BUFFS the "DPS" of the encounter but reduces the massive burst it offers.
I guess #4 would be fixing Knife's Edge so it only procs off the first attack OR even activation rather than hits. This removes the "insta reset" on encounters that TRs have with BB.
DONE. Buffed TR PVE DPS, adjusted burst damage and tankiness in PVP.
Without overly considering them, these seem quite reasonable to me and I main a TR. I might even suggest lower stealth movement than you do, or even that it is 50% or slower movement when within a certain distance of an enemy since we know they can already do this.
Without overly considering them, these seem quite reasonable to me and I main a TR. I might even suggest lower stealth movement than you do, or even that it is 50% or slower movement when within a certain distance of an enemy since we know they can already do this.
Well I just want it to be fair TBH, I am not looking to over nerf or over buff anything. We have had plenty of modules with over nerf and over buff and its not fun. Its great for 2 weeks them just boring as heck because noone wants to play.
So what is fair? Well I think its pretty fair what I have described above....
Some of the issues with the class are:
1) Movement Speed is too great - allowing for them to contest nodes with ease, playing cat and mouse both able to deal damage and dodge away/out run enemies while invisible. Nerfing movement IN stealth by a flat 20% (to 80%) is just like a GF holding block, with feats TRs can easily buff this up WELL above 100% and still outrun most players however it would be toned down from live just a smidge - dont forget Sneak Attack will have a rank 4 as well as Skillful Infiltrator which will provide another 15% run speed when feated.
CURRENT: 100% + 30% + 15% = 145% (not including Darks or Tact REd - pvp feat)
NEW: 80% + 40% + 20% = 140% (not including etc etc)
So its not even THAT much of a nerf AT ALL. Basically just compensates for rank 4 AND if you want to slot something like First Strike or Tactics its much more of a trade off now than before when you could slot ONE movement feat and STILL outrun targets in stealth.
2) Stealth Crit Chance - This is very problematic because TRs can just ignore Crit Chance and Stack Power/Recovery which is part of the issue with balance right now. If they were forced to stack more Crit, it would be at the loss of power as well. So this is a proper balance IMO. Still getting near 100% crit wont be unattainable but it will be more of a tradeoff - which it SHOULD be just like it is for ANY other class.
3) Lashing Blade - this combined with stealth crit combined with First Srike AND SoD is just rather silly to me. Basically Lashing Blade USED to have 100% crit in stealth but since they gave that TO stealth they now gave this a 50% severity bonus?! I mean thats a HAMSTER Perfect Vorpal! This ability is next to useless in PVE because the long CD and in PVP its too much burst, giving it shorter CD in stealth makes it MORE viable for PVE and still VERY good for PVP.
4) Knife's Edge - this is just stupid it hasnt been fixed (to my knowledge) yet on PTR.
Whats funny is in TS, last patch day, I trolled and told some TRs I was "reading the patch notes" I started listing off all these crazy "nerfs" to the class and when I finished my list of ~ 10 things they all were like "phew ok, I can still work with that" I just started laughing SO hard because even AFTER my "wishlist" they all were like "ok we are still good"
...
2) Stealth Crit Chance - This is very problematic because TRs can just ignore Crit Chance and Stack Power/Recovery which is part of the issue with balance right now. If they were forced to stack more Crit, it would be at the loss of power as well. So this is a proper balance IMO. Still getting near 100% crit wont be unattainable but it will be more of a tradeoff - which it SHOULD be just like it is for ANY other class.
3) Lashing Blade - this combined with stealth crit combined with First Srike AND SoD is just rather silly to me. Basically Lashing Blade USED to have 100% crit in stealth but since they gave that TO stealth they now gave this a 50% severity bonus?! I mean thats a HAMSTER Perfect Vorpal! This ability is next to useless in PVE because the long CD and in PVP its too much burst, giving it shorter CD in stealth makes it MORE viable for PVE and still VERY good for PVP.
4) Knife's Edge - this is just stupid it hasnt been fixed (to my knowledge) yet on PTR.
Whats funny is in TS, last patch day, I trolled and told some TRs I was "reading the patch notes" I started listing off all these crazy "nerfs" to the class and when I finished my list of ~ 10 things they all were like "phew ok, I can still work with that" I just started laughing SO hard because even AFTER my "wishlist" they all were like "ok we are still good"
That should tell you something.
I play a scoundrel and so I am mostly visible (95% of the time) and have to stack crit a little, although I do benefit from the crit from stealth with setting up big hits. In module 6 I will be forced to have to play a sab since the current scoundrel and executioner are wrecked on preview and so I want to have to have a reason to stack crit (and also a reason to actually value the TR primary stat of dex) and so I am all for this.
Again as a scoundrel using lashing blade from stealth with first strike I can get in the 40k range. Because of its long cool down and how easy it is to miss with it I don't even use it and instead I use dazing strike as it averages better damage and is tough to miss with. Your suggestion would not change its value for a scoundrel and would weaken it for an executioner but make it far more powerful now for a saboteur and that would be my only concern as the sab is the strongest path at the moment. It would make it more viable against bosses for the executioner but the scoundrel would likely not have stealth back to take advantage of the reduced cooldown.
I cannot believe that KE has not been fixed yet. This actually bothers me with the degree that this feat is broken. I guess it will persist for as long as TT does.
The interesting thing with TR is that each path is quite different and each path values things differently than the others. I liked the diversity although I felt that even before the nerf to scoundrel and executioner that the saboteur was easily the strongest and most forgiving of the trees. Now it is the only choice and that is bad.
TRs have a host of cool abilities that have NO USE WHATSOEVER, and others that significantly outperform yet are fairly straightforward. A lot of the encounters should be due for a rework.
Deft Strike - Cooldown decreased by roughly 20%. Stealthed version also gives CA for 3 seconds.
Bait and Switch - Increase AP gain by 200% and health to 75%. Make targeted ability. The bait should automatically follow the target using whatever at-wills the TR has (for no damage) and immediately generate max threat, kind of like a companion. No change to stealthed version.
Smoke Bomb - ADD TARGET CAP. Remove damage. Non-stealth dazes, stealthed CONFUSES (like the Moonbow chick).
Vengeance Pursuit - Add 20% DR, 20% Deflect for 3 seconds after use.
ITC - Ends if a power is used during it's duration.
*gets popcorn and coolaid..
and the whining continues.. never grow tired and old eh?
cant you wait for mod6? or this is just the same old propaganda nerf the PVP base class TR?
Comments
I will not list everything, because that would be useless.
When I see your last post, I think that what cause our misunderstanding is not a complete difference of opinion, but a difference of words.
We might disagree because we don't have the same approach, but we are clearly not opponents.
Maybe that is just my trend to underline every details in others people's argumentation that deserve me sometimes.
I stand against any "nerf" to TR, because last time they have nerfed this class, we were at the top (too powerful, indeed), but we get kicked to the ground. It was impossible to play PvP without spending your all life in stealth and trying to join a group for PvE would simply lead nowhere cause NO ONE would want TR in party.
About Mod5 TR, this is indeed a complete failure (and is one of the reason that keep me far from PvP for the moment), but this failure allow TR-players to go in PvE groups again, without spending 2/3 hours looking for a place in a group to rush a 15/20mn dungeon because 11k CW are more efficient than 19k TR.
Tweaking TR don't mean one or two adjustments, it mean "rebuild from scratch", at least in my opinion, because that is the only thing that will work. For me, a rebuild is not a nerf.
But a simple nerf will not be efficient. Example, if you simply remove executioners damage to avoid one-shot, you make this path useless again in PvE. That is not what I call a progress.
Let me explain what I mean when I say that people complain about symptoms.
Actually, nearly everything in TR need stealth. Our class feature give so much advantages that it is simply impossible to manage. The problem is that if you reduce this advantage, you soon lead TR to uselessness because it is all he had.
About ITC. It's old incarnation was efficient in PvE, used in PvP-perma-stealth, and the cap-stone of alternative-non-perma-PvP-build.
The new one is useless in PvE, make non-perma impossible, and can only help PvP half-perma/perma.
They have nerfed, but does it lead somewhere ? No, because the less affected thing is the one that needed to be nerfed. NERF=FAIL
About damage, I remember that, a few weeks ago, a guy was asking for LB's rough damages to be "nerfed" to 15000 at max, and refused to trust me when I told him that LB's rough damages were about 8000 and that the origin of those amazingly big numbers was only a combination of feats and stuff.
This guy was extreme, but a lot of people discuss in the same way, making it impossible to try to find a balance that could please most peoples. Is it really so surprising that I sometimes become enraged just by reading "nerf" somewhere ?
You misunderstand me. What I say is that, except maybe about dodge (I have already give my position on it, I will not start again), everything need stealth to be really efficient. Stealth is too much powerful, but that is mostly all we have, and after the scoundrel's nerf, it will be even worse. Again, I don't say that the live scoundrel is balanced, because it is not, but it will go from not really efficient in PvE and OP in PvP to not really efficient in PvE and completely eclipsed by others path in PvP. That is not an efficient balance.
The problem was not the length of the daze, it was the concept of the perma-daze TR. The nerf change nothing but the feats of the one who will be OP.
Hey, don't be so terrible... I wasn't blaming anything here, it was mostly to say that any hability get a cooldown adapted to it's efficiency. I don't play CW myself. I had one, in the past, but I never found much fun playing this class, both in PvE and PvP. I have deleted him month ago. Well... afterward, my words were certainly badly chosen, and I would like you to excuse me, if you agree.
I agree with you, and that is why I say that TR need a rework. But nerf, at least in the sense I am understanding it, is not a solution, but rather an incoming come-back to the old Mod2 TR, but without stealth this time, as it had been modified.
I know that sometime I can be quite agressive when I defend my position, but when I see people who simply want the TR to be send back to mod3 while keeping the stealth modifications to "balance" perma-stealth, I am scared. I have already spend a year playing an underprivileged class, and I don't want to start again.
But as long as people want to discuss and try to find a real solution to solve the problem, I stand with them. You can't imagine how many hours I am spending thoses lasts week, looking at what cause troubles, trying to design an efficient balance using neverwinter's schematics of powers/feats/buff... I am not really active on the English forum, but I can tell you that, on the French one, most people know me for standing against what is broken in my favorite class, should it be in it's favor or not. I had stand against perma-stealth, And I am preparing my tools to stand efficiently against the Mod5 TR (I do have started already, but let's say that I prepare a big argumentation with suggestions of change). The only thing that delayed my argumentation was the incoming mod6 and it's major gameplay-rework. I have also tried to give advice to non-TR-playing peoples, some tricks that can't exactly save them, but help them the time for a solution to be implemented in-game. Some listen and try to use what they learn at their advantage, some simply insult me just because I say that my main is a TR.
Too much people ask for a simple execution of the class, asking not only for balancing what TR have, but removing everything (or at least removing what they think the most OP without any long-range plan, just hitting the nerf button each time something seams not WaI in their opinion). That is what I stand against, and if that is not what you are asking, then, I am with you. Let's Balance TR together...
Cordially,
TankinatorFR
They do more than scoundrel with similar gear/skill, but scoundrel is one of the lowest single target damage classes in the game -- especially against control immune targets being behind cw/sw/hr/gwf/dc.
Of course scoundrel also got a recent nerf in preview rendering it at a serious disadvantage in PvP and I suspect the major reason was because of the excessive crying on the forums and misinformation and misidentification about which Tr one had encountered. Interestingly enough, the specialized daze TR will now generally be worse than the other tree's due to the fact that the feat and capstone now make the default powers worse than without the feat/capstone. Silly when you think on it.
i fear its gonna be worse than ever, cause most classes just can stand and trie to feel the TR, before the impact comes
thats what i learned in short time sticking (much to my regret) with this game
we all exchange viruell blows due to this, but the problem is as everybody knows, the company and players who intend to abuse these unbalanced classes proven by TR´s springing up like musrooms in the last month
so there is a way to deal with, but since company is ******ed in bringing on solutions, it would be up to the player base
but since playerbase is....... it is like it is --> 1000s of TR´s running arround, taking the "easy way" using exploits as hard as they can and spamming redicules videos on youtube
nothing more to say about good will and sense of fairness, think about your motives going PVP: "lets bash some pugs and feel one time in live a bit superior" ? poor human kind
But be honest, those who play TR this way today are the one witch were playing CW or GWF yesterday, and the one that will play the next OP class tomorrow.
Let's ignore them and try to do something with peoples who don't care about being OP and only want to have a good time on Neverwinter.
Cryptic remind me Bioware on Mass Effect 3 multiplayer. We tell them a weapon is OP, they nerf it so any guy using it is called "n**b", we tell them something is not efficient enough, they buff it and make it so that every player will want to use it.
Troll detected
In dev history of doing a rework they do it poorly and make broken mekanic just like TR now
if you askiñg about rework then HR,DC,GWF,SW need a rework as well
dev are working at new content and this TR broken thing need a fix asap so pvp not gonna die (again)
nerf is the best option
make 100% crit change mekanic only proc atwill
nerf roll
and we are good to go mod 6
Dodge indeed need a little tun-down, exept that it shouldn't became as low as it was before because it wasn't efficient.
But for your "brilliant" concept of : You would simply remove an important part of TR's damage, but that is what TR is here for. What is 100k or 200k damage against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-dealer, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE (again)
You can't just throw idea this way. The problem we are facing is complex. The TR step on the thread. It is too powerful, but can easely go-back to the abyss where he had spend the last year, if not deeper... And that is not an option.
That is why a solution is not a simple nerf, but a carefull rework.
Had someone here said this was false ? Indeed, most class in this game need a balance rework. That do not mean TR don't need it and should simply get nerfed again...
It will need some modules before we can reach 50%.
I hope to see a revision in a less long time.
Every class get encounter and daily skill crit from RNG crit stat except TR and CW which have 100% crit mekanic
so why TR must get exception? Wanna get burst damage crit from encounter and daily skill? Then stack crit stat it's RNG baby
is it so bad to lost 100% crit change damage lashing blade every 30s?
I was 20k GS HR trapper and got my self lose to 18k GS TR at paingiver
so make 100% crit change only proc atwill will kill TR PVE position? Bite me
Furthermore, high critical severity in the early game is not fun or balanced. I see twinked up classes <L60 running greater/perfect vorps. This is ruining the game for early level PvP.
If it is not fun or balanced for the new gamer, they are less likely to continue PvPing, leading to a greater loss to the PvP community.
There you wanna fix the symptoms instead of the disease
critical sev in this game is fine because it's "RNG" from crit change stat with max 2.25 with P vorp
make the big gun nuke of a class 100% crit change that lashing blade give +50% crit sev is dead wrong in every way end of story
If you wait for 1 roll (early fight) or 2 roll (after lashing), and catch the TR into a prone (even 21kGS) you can annihilate them. After soulforge, look for a quick at-will kill, or run like hell. Let you CDs come up, drink a potion, charge THROUGH him. Lashing will usually wiff, wait for 1 roll, take your time killing. Keep distance. Always be moving AWAY from him when he's not stealth, and FIND his *** when he is stealth.
IDC what GS the rogue is, if he can't get his 1-shot off from stealth, my 15kSW can annihilate rogues. I do think lashing could be toned down a bit, and the daily as well. But I still think they SHOULD hit hard. With the PvP changes to ArPen, I think TRs will have a lot of trouble.
Uh, yea.
Like GWF, HR, CW, and now DC/TR.
Once we get "omg nerf GF/SW before it kills pvp", we'll have the complete rotation of dev screwups.
The irony is that TR was already on top once and it was nerfed so bad, they weren't even wanted for PvE.
Just wanted to clear this up.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
every TR user always talk about Learn to play
but why other class should do everything perfectly..? can predict TR movement.. use at least 4.1 dolby sound, timing every skill cooldown, use pot, BIS equip for 1 rotate kill a TR, exct..
all TR think they play well their classes but sorry to say your class is OP.. if you lose to non TR class then your skill must be suck badly
I am a Gf:
What is 45% or 50% DR against boss who hits for 150k ? We are single target defenders, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE.So in conjuction with your excuse about Trs we want 90% Dr please or 150k hps.
I am a CW:
What is 5sec or 6 sec control against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-controller, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE.So in conjuction with your excuse about Trs we want 150% more CC please.
I am a DC:
What is 5k or 10k healing against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-healer, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE.So Dcs should increase their healing by 100%
I am a GWF:
What is 3k CaGI or 4k IBS damage against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-dealer, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE.Our IBS should be buffed by 167,6% please.
i am a HR:
What is 100k or 200k damage against boss who get millions of PV ? We are single target damage-dealer, of course that make it hard to balance in PvP, but without it, we disapear from PvE.Let split the sky deal 400% more damage please.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^66
Just to see where things would go if we all follow your briliant thesis.
Tired of people that try to defend their pvp opness by bringing in pve.99% of pvpers don't give a dammn for pve.they only remember it when suits them.
Actually THE issue here is really just TR getting 100% critical in stealth here. Again TR balancing is NOT that difficult TBH. Its pretty easy to make changes to TR without hurting PVE here is what is needed for balance:
1) Stealth provides a *100% critical strike chance NOT +100%. What this means is it doubles your crit chance. Have 30%? Its now 60% in stealth. Have 50%? Now its 100% in stealth. This reduces the OPness of it early on, still allows PVE TRs who CAN get near 50% crit to have 100% crit - thus hardly affecting PVE DPS at all. This balances PVP ALOT since now TRs cant just ignore crit since they get it for free, it actually benefits them more to stack more crit.
2) Stealth reduces movement speed by 20% as a BASE. TRs have so many good movement speed buffs that can easily make up for this, this also hardly affects PVE at all. If people are complaining due to pvp set bonuses and such, you can always extend the BASE duration of stealth by 1 second to "adjust" for this movement speed reduction - which actually HELPS PVE DPS but this movement speed reduction makes it MUCH more difficult for a TR to BOTH DPS AND avoid damage. Now they have to choose more carefully avoiding damage OR dealing damage but not both.
3) Lashing Blade - the "in stealth bonus" here should be a 75% REDUCED CD RATHER than 50% more severity. This BUFFS the "DPS" of the encounter but reduces the massive burst it offers.
I guess #4 would be fixing Knife's Edge so it only procs off the first attack OR even activation rather than hits. This removes the "insta reset" on encounters that TRs have with BB.
DONE. Buffed TR PVE DPS, adjusted burst damage and tankiness in PVP.
Armies to come ? 51 out of the first 80 on Leaderboard is Tr rest is 11 is Hr 6 is cw 7 dc 4 gwf 1 gf and 0 sw.
I say they are already here and if your saying it gets worse because some of your paths got less OP good luck finding anything but Trs in pvp....
Btw not one non Tr that talked with will stay if Tr rules another module like last one so unless something is done to balance things up rest wont matter much....
Without overly considering them, these seem quite reasonable to me and I main a TR. I might even suggest lower stealth movement than you do, or even that it is 50% or slower movement when within a certain distance of an enemy since we know they can already do this.
Well I just want it to be fair TBH, I am not looking to over nerf or over buff anything. We have had plenty of modules with over nerf and over buff and its not fun. Its great for 2 weeks them just boring as heck because noone wants to play.
So what is fair? Well I think its pretty fair what I have described above....
Some of the issues with the class are:
1) Movement Speed is too great - allowing for them to contest nodes with ease, playing cat and mouse both able to deal damage and dodge away/out run enemies while invisible. Nerfing movement IN stealth by a flat 20% (to 80%) is just like a GF holding block, with feats TRs can easily buff this up WELL above 100% and still outrun most players however it would be toned down from live just a smidge - dont forget Sneak Attack will have a rank 4 as well as Skillful Infiltrator which will provide another 15% run speed when feated.
CURRENT: 100% + 30% + 15% = 145% (not including Darks or Tact REd - pvp feat)
NEW: 80% + 40% + 20% = 140% (not including etc etc)
So its not even THAT much of a nerf AT ALL. Basically just compensates for rank 4 AND if you want to slot something like First Strike or Tactics its much more of a trade off now than before when you could slot ONE movement feat and STILL outrun targets in stealth.
2) Stealth Crit Chance - This is very problematic because TRs can just ignore Crit Chance and Stack Power/Recovery which is part of the issue with balance right now. If they were forced to stack more Crit, it would be at the loss of power as well. So this is a proper balance IMO. Still getting near 100% crit wont be unattainable but it will be more of a tradeoff - which it SHOULD be just like it is for ANY other class.
3) Lashing Blade - this combined with stealth crit combined with First Srike AND SoD is just rather silly to me. Basically Lashing Blade USED to have 100% crit in stealth but since they gave that TO stealth they now gave this a 50% severity bonus?! I mean thats a HAMSTER Perfect Vorpal! This ability is next to useless in PVE because the long CD and in PVP its too much burst, giving it shorter CD in stealth makes it MORE viable for PVE and still VERY good for PVP.
4) Knife's Edge - this is just stupid it hasnt been fixed (to my knowledge) yet on PTR.
Whats funny is in TS, last patch day, I trolled and told some TRs I was "reading the patch notes" I started listing off all these crazy "nerfs" to the class and when I finished my list of ~ 10 things they all were like "phew ok, I can still work with that" I just started laughing SO hard because even AFTER my "wishlist" they all were like "ok we are still good"
That should tell you something.
I play a scoundrel and so I am mostly visible (95% of the time) and have to stack crit a little, although I do benefit from the crit from stealth with setting up big hits. In module 6 I will be forced to have to play a sab since the current scoundrel and executioner are wrecked on preview and so I want to have to have a reason to stack crit (and also a reason to actually value the TR primary stat of dex) and so I am all for this.
Again as a scoundrel using lashing blade from stealth with first strike I can get in the 40k range. Because of its long cool down and how easy it is to miss with it I don't even use it and instead I use dazing strike as it averages better damage and is tough to miss with. Your suggestion would not change its value for a scoundrel and would weaken it for an executioner but make it far more powerful now for a saboteur and that would be my only concern as the sab is the strongest path at the moment. It would make it more viable against bosses for the executioner but the scoundrel would likely not have stealth back to take advantage of the reduced cooldown.
I cannot believe that KE has not been fixed yet. This actually bothers me with the degree that this feat is broken. I guess it will persist for as long as TT does.
The interesting thing with TR is that each path is quite different and each path values things differently than the others. I liked the diversity although I felt that even before the nerf to scoundrel and executioner that the saboteur was easily the strongest and most forgiving of the trees. Now it is the only choice and that is bad.
TRs have a host of cool abilities that have NO USE WHATSOEVER, and others that significantly outperform yet are fairly straightforward. A lot of the encounters should be due for a rework.
Deft Strike - Cooldown decreased by roughly 20%. Stealthed version also gives CA for 3 seconds.
Bait and Switch - Increase AP gain by 200% and health to 75%. Make targeted ability. The bait should automatically follow the target using whatever at-wills the TR has (for no damage) and immediately generate max threat, kind of like a companion. No change to stealthed version.
Smoke Bomb - ADD TARGET CAP. Remove damage. Non-stealth dazes, stealthed CONFUSES (like the Moonbow chick).
Vengeance Pursuit - Add 20% DR, 20% Deflect for 3 seconds after use.
ITC - Ends if a power is used during it's duration.
and the whining continues.. never grow tired and old eh?
cant you wait for mod6? or this is just the same old propaganda nerf the PVP base class TR?