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What upcoming balance changes are coming for TR in PvP?
ferretofdeath
Member Posts: 9 Arc User
I mostly played PvP in Neverwinter, but I've been taking a break for the past couple of months. This is mainly due to the fact that cookie-cutter TR builds from 9-12k GS could destroy 18k+ builds of every other class last time I played.
I've been looking, but I haven't found any clear discussion on what is being done to make them competitive again in PvP. Any links or just high level points on what is being thrown around would be appreciated. I'm not a min-maxer and don't care about the details. I'd just like to know that someone is working to make classes with similar gear scores competitive with each other again in PvP.
Thanks.
I've been looking, but I haven't found any clear discussion on what is being done to make them competitive again in PvP. Any links or just high level points on what is being thrown around would be appreciated. I'm not a min-maxer and don't care about the details. I'd just like to know that someone is working to make classes with similar gear scores competitive with each other again in PvP.
Thanks.
Post edited by ferretofdeath on
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warlock has problems until now, imo there is only one build that can compete a bit SB Fury, now they are nerfing this tree in mod 6 so Warlock will go on creeping arround
DC faithfull if properly geared and played is absolutely OP, hard to kill, often decides a game
DC rightous is easy mode in PVP, more or less balanced
most annoying class until now TR, properly build with def stats he is ruling pvp, until now several broken encounters, no big changes in 3 month, despite 1000 of threads and a pvp base that has resigned at least when looking at matchmaking
Cookie cutter 9~12k GS TRs don't seem to do particularly well in destroying my 14k GS CW. In the gross average the people that kill me are usually my own teammates with stupid game play. In a 1vs1 situation since the beginning of lv60 PvP, contrary to the frustrating massacre I was expecting to be inflicted on me, I actually rarely ever been killed by a TR. It's always either a gang up or a 3rd-person interference.
IMO the term "cookie-cutter", by definition and nuance, implies cheap, effortless copies of a successful build model controlled by a sub-par player behind it. Hence, given this definition, no, sucky TRs can easily be fended off. Of course, admittedly, some classes have it more difficult than others, such as classes without a true-dodge mechanic like the GWF or the SW. But in rest of the cases, very honestly speaking, the 9~12k GS "cut cookies" are mostly half-wits without so much as an idea of how a TR should be played. If you're losing to these, then I really, really don't think you should be referencing the GS as if it meant something.
Of course, there are experienced players using lower-geared alts, and these people who already are veteran-level TRs no doubt, can kill me easily... but then again this also simply goes so far as to player skill having much more effect than just class or GS. Also, these "vets in alts" are few and far in between. Like said the gross majority of PuG level TRs I see are hardly of any worth and facing them with a right build and right tactic works. So many have told me nothing can beat them and even low level TRs will be killing me right and left. I wonder when. They haven't been able to do so for the last whole month, at least.
...
So if you're talking about BiS geared veteran TRs, then I'd agree with you. Nothing kills them. They're way too powerful and OP in the right hands. But since you've mentioned the "cut cookies" then I must say, "nope, you're wrong."Without any intention of offense or disrespect, I really must point out the possibility that perhaps there's more than just the TRs if you're being victimized so much. I'm a TR main. I've been nothing BUT the TR for the last year and a half, aside from some abandoned, fresh, poorly geared lv60 alts I've not used in a long, long time. It's those alts I've put my interest into to see for myself if things are so bad in all level of PvP as people claim.
The only conclusion I've came to so far, is that people who are victimized by even such low-level, pitiful skill level TRs, usually have a very good reason as to why, and have a bad tendency to just blame everything on the TR without really having thought about whether or not their own performance, own skill, own preparation for PvP is adequate or not.
Cookie cutters are easily smashed with similar gear level, preparation, tactics and skill. Especially when it's in the low-mid GS ranges.
...so, in a nutshell, I actually agree the TR needs a lot of balancing and nerfs. But I don't agree it's the OP-ness of the TR that causes the massacre in the low-mid level ranges of PvP. From what I've seen and experienced, most victims of this massacre were already as good as dead when they've entered PvP with that low level of skill/experience, inadequate builds, and poor understanding of general
tactics.
I agree that skill makes a ton of difference. I also agree that a more skilled player could do more with my toon, but with a solid amount of PvP play both before and after Mod 5, I can spot a significant shift in the balance of power in class matchups. Even after spending time trying to adapt to the changes, a similarly skilled TR requires far less GS than any other class to win. I was never massacred by TRs prior to Mod5. After Mod5, I was, consistently. I'm sure I've still got further adapting to do concerning the changes, but not as much as the discrepancy I'm seeing.
While I appreciate your respectful, well-reasoned response, my own empirical data, as well as that of many friends, as well as a cursory glance at the leaderboards, shows that you're mistaken on this point - TRs became significantly imbalanced after Mod5 in PvP. If you weren't disagreeing with that point, then I apologize for misunderstanding.
"Stats: Tenacity: Now directly reduces the effect of Armor Penetration against you. Base Tenacity is increased to 20%, and Tenacity's affects against Armor Penetration are doubled." - from the preview patch notes
Its going to end up with who can do more sustained dmg.
People maybe getting more HP but from what I can tell those who do the PVP thing only will buy or somehow get ahold of R12 enchants to go with that 100k HP and anyone trying to PVP in that environment is going to get bored or instantly defeated. However I have only had 1 pvp match on the preview so I might be wrong but when I fought against 100k people with a toon that had around 40k it really wasn't much of a match up.
Rumor had it there were going to be separate queues ... but even if that does happen I can totally see the 100k full legendary all R10-12 enchant person trolling the non pre-made/low end pvp queue.
if you have a bit gear 15k up and have the right build u can perform somehow in pvp, even with a warlock, but equal equipped and scilled TR will normally win the race, despite some ppl who write in this forum don´t having any issues with TR´s
can´t say if they are just too scilled or only want to make everyone think they are....
there is by sure a proof to this
--> 4 Tr´s in every match at least, enough proof to this?
--> going into the match lots of people press x, looking for the TR, gearscore name... i do, what about you beeing honest?
as i wrote in another thread, a 17k TR (scoundrel i think) with def stats in right place, performed easily 2 vs 1
problem for most classes is stealth mechanic, stuns and still broken encounters imo
i see from time to time 21-23k TR´s who underperform badly, but i also see 15k Tr´s that stomp much higher player in the ground and win the match for the group, its skill but its skill+broken encounters/class for sure
Just how many TR players do you think are out there, that really know how to manage the class well? Not counting the ultra-skilled premade level players, even decent and average level players are rare to be seen these days. The 'good ones' are always few in numbers, and whatever increase in TR numbers you see is nothing but mass-produced wannabes with very poor interpretation of what the class can do and how it should be managed.
Empirically speaking I would estimate that around 80% or more TR players in low-mid GS levels are (to quote myself again) "half-wit Executioner builds that rely on brainless LB attempts way too often, with transparent and easy to predict attack patterns and movements". During the entire last month I've met maybe two or three times a TR player who clearly knew what he was doing. All the rest were just typical 'random PuG' level.
...
The logic is actually very simple. Numerically speaking there is NO WAY all these complaints you see in the forums are caused by the same, rare, skilled TRs in the low-mid GS PvP.
This means many of the people are meeting very low-skilled TRs - and still losing to them. To this suggestion those people respond by saying that TRs are OP and they can beat people even with lesser skill and lesser GS. However, the reality is "only at the hands of someone skilled enough", and "there ain't that many of those skilled players to go around and cause ALL of these massive number of complaints".
Hence, to test this theory out was the very reason why I brought out old alts and started playing low-mid GS PvP with them: to see if the TRs in these levels -- the typical TRs people are meeting and complaining about in the forums en masse, and see how I can fare against them. To see if those sucky TRs can really beat everyone even at poor GS and skill level just with all those 1-shots.
It turns out, they can't. Which means, and confirms the following:
absolute majority of TRs you meet are in all likelihood, not a very good player, especially in low-mid GS PvP (certainly, if they can't even damage someone using a CW he's not played in over 9 months, and has to choose to just leave the node and run away, that shows just what kind of 'skill level' these TRs are at)
the reason many players lose to these, are because many players themselves are, unfortunately, not a very good player.
these TRs can be beat, or at least be fended off, if you have better skill level
Yes, things become much more hectic the higher GS/skill level you go, and at high-end premade levels these TRs are nothing like what you see in random PuG matches. But as much, conversely, this also means that the random PuG level TRs are also nothing like the premade level TRs, and these can be fought off if you're prepared to do so. People die to these because they don't know how, and then come to the forums and dump all of the blame on the TRs alone and simply leave out/hide all of their their own shortcomings.
So let assume to make it to the top of leaderboard, you need to be very skillful and fully equipped with high-end gears. Then we can conclude that only TR players are skillful and have high-end gears since they totally dominate at the top. But then we can also conclude that other classes have not enough pvp skills and not well-equipped, which is not true at all.
Want more evidence? Take a look of Russian server's leaderboard:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?786821-PVP-situation-on-Russian-server/
Before mod 5, there was only 1 TR on the 1st page. Yes, only 1. After mod 5, there are only 2 DCs and rest are TRs on the 1st page. Suddenly, Russian TR players achieve the awakening state and become godly skillful in pvp, while other classes magically lose their touch. Also, that means Russian TR players suddenly have best gears and all others got hacked and lost all of their gears, beside that 2 DCs.
Those indicate that with same skill and gears, TR has way more powerful tool kits than other classes, at least in pvp.
TRs right now decide who wins the match. Maybe in 1 out of 3 matches I have lost due to scrub TR play or having no TRs I have managed to make up for them (holding/harassing enemy home node), but for the most part when my TRs are worse than the enemy TRs or outnumbered (2v1, 2v0, 1v0), I lose.
not really sure what to think of all this but...
"trs can be beat if you have better skill level"
not quite true when you get one shot, or almost one shot and die to shadowy demise
i'm not sure if you're defending TRs, but if you're defending TRs in they're current state, you're out of your mind
(i a play all classes)
Friend staggy, there isn't any real, noticeable cooperation/coordination in the lower levels of PvP gameplay. It's why we call it "random PuG", remember?
Remember it's the level of gameplay where basic understanding of those elements you've mentioned are very weak, or does not exist at all.
Low-mid GS PuG PvP is an entirely different situation from higher PuG level PvP, and then premade PvP differs totally from that, and then the top-level also totally different. The results are similar, but they're not caused by the same reasons -- yet, people like to, or perhaps they NEED to just simply decide and believe that it's all because of one class, that the entire community is suffering from.
I do not believe that is true. I believe the general lack of skill and understanding, and not paying conscious attention to the learning curve, is just as much problem in the lower levels, and its these lower levels where 90% of the matches are made.
Please elaborate what other reasons that causes the same result at every pvp tier, especially at the top of the leaderboard.
Are you trying to say only TR has smart players that could understand other classes thoroughly so that they could dominate them that easily on the top of leaderboard or other classes players are not that skillful enough to make it otherwise?
I remember GWFs was invincible in pvp back then in mod 2-3 but not now. With your logic, these GWFs suddenly lost all of their skills/gears and understanding of other classes so that they can no longer dominate in pvp.
i don't like you, you are trying to save TR OP, but this is normal. Mod3 GWFs and mod 4 HRs also believed that their class is ok, but no, low lvl TR is multikiller, and endgame TR in good hands is nigtmare of module 5, so please stop defending TR and writting stupid post on forums.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX2nmZ2irkc
PS. This is situation a few days ago. i know that the leaderboard isn't main determinant of pvp situation but it really can say something about balance in pvp. Ofcourse remove from this ss "kickers" like artemis and Oyiu and what we have here?
Just what exactly have I defended?
I support almost every nerf or balancing suggestion that was made to the TRs, I detest many of the top-level TRs who knew from a long time ago certain things were broken, and yet chose to stay silent and out of major discussions in hopes of exploiting those things. I was among the first of some TRs that found broken stuff out and made strong suggestions/recommendations to the devs to fix it before releasing mod5 as we've regularly tested it in the preview. I was caught up in nasty fights and struggles in the forums against many TR players that did not want anything to change from the preview level. I've openly mentioned that abnormal rate of AP gains due to certain artifact combos simply break the game and make TRs literally impossible to kill.
...and yet, due to the fact that I simply point out a very evident truth in the community now I'm 'defending the OP' TR?
Again, the truth is very simple.
(1) in any game, the average/lower-than-average population of players are always the most numerous
(2) these people consist a big majority of the bandwagon that complain about TRs
(3) except, due to (1), in all likelihood those people hardly, if ever, even get to meet a TR player that even makes use of such OP stuff.
(4) in other words, in the lower bottom-dwelling environment I've been enjoying myself in for the past month, the BiS/unkillable ones simply don't exist here. They all reside at at least mid~high GS levels as their own gear/build is fleshed out. The only hint of such OP level players are all pre-existing players using alts, and these players are also very rare.
...so then, when the gross majority of TRs in this gameplay level are showing no signs of being able to even comprehend how to make use of TRs to OP levels, then just who are the numerous low-mid GS players meeting that they complain so harshly and regularly?
Answer: They're meeting these same sucky TRs that don't even use any of the really OP stuff, and then gets still creamed by them.
Why? Because the TRs are OP even if that they don't know how to be OP? Do they pulsate some sort of a TR-death ray that ultimately dooms you to drop dead on the spot and gives TRs free kills? Of course not.
The only logical answer is people who get beat up by sucky TRs that aren't capable of being OP in the first place, because they're just as much sucky as those TRs. My point is that unlike in the higher levels where TR players reach their full potential and sometimes becomes nigh impossible to beat, in these lower level PvP matches there's a lot one can do to turn the tables and not be a victim -- and it's these level of players the vets should be helping by giving practical advices and tips, instead of keep on being so fixated on the above-average level of PvP. In the lower levels, with more input and advice from veteran players the situation can be remedied somewhat.
That would be my point.
So you are blaming community for either jumping the bandwagon of joining TRs or nerfing TRs. Sure, it is normal, it happens whenever a class suddenly becomes OP due to being overbuffed, broken mechanics, bugs, etc (CW at release, TR before mod 2, GWF in mod 3, HR mod 2-4, TR mod 5).
But what is the main reason for all of these? It is because the class itself is OP. The community reaction is just a side effect of it.
Since you already admitted that TR is OP, it is unnecessary to dissolve the main issue with its side effect.
I expect this post will get moderated.... (and mine too for quoting it!) but really, why call people stupid and say you dont like them in a thread that's all speculation anyway? Mod 6 isnt here yet, in preview we've given all the feedback we can, and the dev's are doing things their way. The playerbase has no control or input on how the classes are balanced contrary to popular belief. We (the playerbase) didnt with-hold any info that Cryptic didnt already have. They are WELL aware of TR bugs and they hold the rights to any changes. The player base either pro-TR or opposed to TR have nothing to do with how the class is given to us and have every right to play it in all it's nuances once it hits live.
I personally hate the fact that GPF double procs SoD. I worked hard to test and fight the double proccing issue. It makes all TR's look like immature "gankers" when really it's a rare few who are taking advantage of the exploit.
All I can say is .. Chill. Mod 6 will be here when it's here and SO much stuff is changing - nobody can predict (and I mean nobody) how the game is going to look. I also expect there will be at least 1 super-fast patch after release that will address at least one broken balance issue.. it's just how things go.
Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene
Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice
Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee
Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
Rather, to put it in simpler terms to understand, it would be this:
"Most people who complain about the OP TRs in the forums, in all likelihood, probably didn't even have the chance to actually meet an OP TR in the first place"
...hence, they're simply "jumping on the bandwagon" because it provides a quick and easy excuse to be used to cover what's really troubling them so much with TRs -- their lack of proper "L2P". Frankly speaking, in my 20 years of online gaming and community dwelling I've not seen a forum like this NW Forums, where there's basically no discussion of tactics or tips or pointers at all. Even the debates and fights are regulated so strictly in the boards, that nowadays nobody even discusses these things any more.
1 v 1 TRs aren't too much of an issue. Patience and a well timed stun will deal with them. 5v5 on a node though, TRs are a HUGE problem. They can move about freely and start picking off players with ease.
class is broken like DC is in faithfull tree, these classes decide in my exprience most games in ralation to other classes, if u have scilled or just heavy exploiting 17k TR or a 21k **** TR, a faithfull DC or only a rightous one, thats all about matchmaking and winning in PVP
some dudes go on pretending not heaving problems with TR´s at all, pointing indirectly out how scilled they are or how unscilled all TR´s, some are honest or more objective
all in all from my piont of view i will give mod 6 one try, only one
That's the exact thing I tried to debunk last month, and basically have succeeded IMO, sir. Skill does matter, at least matter enough to make a difference in the lower level gameplay, where the mere potential of OPness does not necessarily coincide with the actual manifestation of OPness.
The higher the GS goes, the more likely a lot of people with such higher GS had that much time to gear up and experience combat and become seasoned enough to realize the potential. But in the low GS fights where the majority of PvP players are at, a little superiority in skill and experiece makes a big difference. This simply means people aren't trying enough. There's a real possibility that they can at least spend their time in the lower GS ranges with less grievable outcome, and yet they don't even try.
You are partially right. The higher gs is, the TR is more and more out of hand.
However, you do not need to be crazy high gs to exploit broken mechanics. For example, spamming cloud of steel to either proc 'Concussive strike' as a Scoundrel or 'Shadowy Opportunity' as a Sabo requires next to no skill yet they are extremely effective, a truly high reward no risk playing style.
DoT weapon enchantment, such as plague fire, bilethorn, etc, can proc SoD multiple times. What skill allows other classes to avoid those broken SoD proc. Sadly, there is none.
Someone recently posted about some TRs using p.lightning to proc 'Concussive strike' to stun whole party.
All of those exploits are not tied to gs as you can abuse them as soon as you get the required feats and gears.
While I love to see TRs have diversity in builds as my main was also a TR, but their new mechanics are very poorly implemented, hence lead to abusive playing styles at all pvp tiers.
There's a big difference between possibility, and probability, as I was led to find out.
The odds are, by the time a TR player becomes proficient enough to be able to use all of those with high grade of efficiency, he's not a low GS newbie any more
Its not really skillful when you can kill your opponent by pushing 2 buttons no matter what class you play.
And what i have learned: Most ppl put in all tr abilites at once to complain why the tr is op. I play sab atm and its fun. But ... i dont have that high damagespikes. I can avoid most impact at will, thats true, but i cant oneshot anyone. An exe can oneshot, but he hasnt stealth every second ready.
So, the massive damage spikes has to be removed from ALL classes, as well as all the cc should have a diminishing return. It shouldnt be possible to control someone to death.
And that is a general problem, not just the tr.
Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene
Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice
Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee
Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
so live with ur OP class or negate it, 90% of all player can´t be wrong
the only player who defend this class are TR´s-players that (chose an option):
1. are blind, or lost any sense for reality
2. can´t play, so sure u suffer in pvp every single match
3. troll
4. don´t use these broken encounters and pretend everything is ok with the class, silly argument btw.
did i forget something?
While I myself agree on the need for nerfs, in reality, 90% or more players are simply wrong about many things. For a bit harsh observation, 90% of people remain at the bottom/newbie/"scrub" level throughout their PvP gaming years and most never progress beyond that.
These people usually have way too high/fragile egos in relation to their actual skill level, and thus in almost every case, will come to open discussion and start rants and whines about how the game is broken. In their minds, they are supposedly "good" players, and if they are defeated so often, it must be because the game is broken -- otherwise, such good players as themselves should not be losing so often. To them, the fact that one is losing because one is simply unskilled -- this never comes into mind.
And, like mentioned before, these are the overwhelming majority of PvP players in any game, any genre. So, yes, as a matter of fact, 90% of the people are entirely clueless and are the least reliable source of arguments or ideas when balance is at hand. They're usually always wrong.
... The best I've made it in the leaderboards was page 6 of the leaderboards without any help of any premade teams, guilds, or even 2~3 man mini premades. Every fight I've faced I was alone, no heal-slave or a baby-sitter behind my back, submitted to total randomness of the PuG queue which often puts you amidst a team that sucks so much, that no single player can carry all their deadweights upon his shoulder. No abuse of kicks or disconnects to preserve score like some pitiful egomaniacs in premades do. Currently, I play maybe only 4 matches a day, just for the dailies, and usually stick around page between 20~30.
I've played all sorts of multiplayer games for almost 20 years, long enough to see objectively just where I stand in terms of 'skil'. When we rate someone as "0" for a total clueless newbie, and "100" as the 'best player in the game', with stats like above I'm clearly better than any normal PuG player, and even average grade premade players, but that only still gets me around maybe score 60 or something. If this game has 1,000 PvP players, around 700 of these players would be below the score of 50 (with the majority being under even 30), 200 players like me would be around 51~70, 50 players would be between 71~80, and 50 of them between 81~100.
90% of players are wrong, all the time.