Refinement Items? This is getting out of hand

ironzerg79 · February 2015

Back when the changes to the refinement system were implemented last year, a big selling point was that it would simplify things and reduce the clutter in people's bags.

Well, look where we're at now. These are the stones that have been added since that change:

Let's try to count them.

Marks of Potency: White/Green/Blue/Purple
Marks of Union: Green/Blue/Purple
Marks of Power: Green/Blue/Purple
Marks of Stability: Green/Blue/Purple

Union Stone: White/Green/Blue/Purple
Power Stone: White/Green/Blue/Purple
Stability Stone: White/Green/Blue/Purple

Resonance Stone: White/Green/Blue/Purple

Thaumaturge Stone: White/Green/Blue/Purple

Gems: Pearl/Peridot/Aquamarine/Sapphire/Opal/Blood Ruby/Diamond

If I counted right, that's 40 stones added since the addition of the "New" Refinement system.

FORTY! This is ridiculous. And to make matters worse, depending on where you got the drop, it could be bound, bound to account or unbound...potentially three cases for each!

Why do we need 40 different stones for Refinement? Can't we just simplify things?

Why do you need specific stones for Artifacts? Different stones for Artifact Equipment? And NOW different stones for Enchantments and Refinement. Plus the "universal" jewels that can go into anything.

This is way too much clutter...way to much complication.

Why don't we just cut out all those extra stones. Resonance stones? Thaumaturge Stones? Union/Stability/Power stones? They all serve essentially the same purpose as the Gems: Pearl/Peridot/Aquamarine/Sapphire/Opal/Blood Ruby/Diamond.

Why can't we at least simplify back to the Gems, remove all that other clutter? It's getting out of hand here.

ironzerg79 · February 2015

To quote a dev at the time, Amenar, take from the Official Feedback thread when the new system was proposed here: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?516571-Cryptic-OFFICIAL-Feedback-Thread-Refinement-System

Hey everyone -

So I wanted to chime in to talk about a few of the specific issues being brought up.

First, I wanted to say that this is on the Preview shard specifically so that we can get lots of feedback, improve the system, and make sure it's hitting all of our goals. Some players have commented that the current system on Live is "fine" but we disagree - our data shows that many players are not engaging in the current system due to the frustration of using it. If the system was performing well and making everyone happy, we would not have invested all of the time and effort into improving it that we have. We're still looking at and discussing the system constantly, and one of the main areas of discussion is what it takes to Upgrade an item - meaning the AD Cost, Catalysts and Wards part of the system.

Second, we want to say "oops" for not having the Catalysts in the AD store when it went up to Preview. They will be in the build that should be going up tomorrow. The intent is that enough of these will be dropping in the world (from skill nodes and bosses, mostly) that you won't need or want to buy them from the AD store, but we want to have the option there to ensure that you'll always have access to them.

Next, I wanted to talk about bag space. One of the main goals of the new system is to reduce the bag space requirements of engaging in the Refining system. We don't think there will be a reason to carry around a bag full of Enchants/Runestones anymore - you'll have the ones you want slotted in your gear and companions, and you'll use extra ones as you get them to Refine your slotted Enchants. You won't have a full set of all 9 of the basic Enchants/Runes at multiple ranks, as there is no need to try to stack them up to smash them any longer.

Instead, you'll have a handful of Catalyst items in your bag. There are 4 of them for Enchants/Runestones, you will probably only be carrying 1 or 2 of them around at a time, unless you happen to have slotted Enchants ranging from ranks 1-10 in your gear. Most people will have the majority of their slotted Enchants around the same rank, meaning you'll need a handful of the Catalysts that make sense for you current and of Refinement progression. I know that for my character on Live, I have something like 16-20 slots taken up with Enchants and Runestones at pretty much any time. On our test servers, I don't have Enchants or Runestones in my bags at all any more.

Last comment for now - we put the AD cost on Upgrading the items because we removed the (much larger) AD cost required for Unslotting them. We still want AD to play a part in the Refinement/Enchantment process, but it was a big barrier to using the system when slotting an Enchantment was such a huge commitment due to the cost of removing it. We'd rather have smaller, up front costs for Upgrading than the current large recurring costs whenever you get a new item. Having to think "if I start using this sweet new weapon I got, I have to unslot my Enchant, ugh" was a situation we were really not happy with.

Again, we're still looking very closely at this system, so keep posting your feedback!

two30 · February 2015

There's also two types of Citrine, but those are seasonal.

I doubt that they will reduce the diversity of stones. What I would like is a giant bag that only accepts bound items. It would be useless for bot accounts, but useful for legitimate players.

henry404 · February 2015

If we knew there would never be another double RP event we'd just use 'em as we pick them up rather than try to hoard them all for that might-never-happen-again event.

I currently have one bag dedicated to such items, with space for bound and unbound versions of the stones and gems and then a slot for every flavour of unbound R4. That extra Mod 6 stuff will not fit so I will have to re-think what I keep. I'll probably just end up using more stuff on the spot and keeping the bigger ones. All the marks go into a guild bank so that relieves the pressure a bit, especially as they don't drop that often right now.

But, yes, it can get a bit overwhelming. It's almost as if we need a special inventory tab for RP.... <innocent and tuneless whistle>

ironzerg79 · February 2015

It's just...they said the idea was to REDUCE bag clutter...yet here we are with 40 additional pieces of stuff to keep in our bags

nekromaniak666 · February 2015

ironzerg79 wrote: »

...

The number of different stones should be really reduced. It will help and improve the game in many ways.

1) Marks of Potency/Union/Power/Stability: green/blue/purple/orange (maybe in the future)
- always unbound
- reagant job during refinement proces
- refinement job instead of Stones in point 2)

2) Union/Power/Stability Stones: white/green/blue/purple
- these stones can be wiped out of the game and their job will take Marks in point 1)

3) Resonance Stones: white/green/blue/purple
- since they are artifact gear only, white should be deleted and green (2500RP) the lowest grade to drop with very high chance
- increase droprate of blue and purple, also then make them all accound bound (even from various rewards)

4) Gems: Pearl/Peridot/Aquamarine/Sapphire/Opal/Blood Ruby/Diamond
- because of today RP requirements of various stuff, Pearls can be wiped out of the game
- Peridots (500RP) should be the lowest grade with drop chance from various places and should be unbound only also Peridots will be the main AH RP selling article (cheap RPs but you need too much of them = too much clicks during refine proces)
- about Aquamarines, i am not sure, but prefer option to wipe them out of the game
- Sapphires and Opals should be obtainable from various sources, from low to higher droprate, but account bound only
- Blood Rubies and Diamonds are connected to Zen shop and it should stay as is it

5) Thaumaturge Stones
- i am not familiar with them yet

onecoolscatcat · February 2015

ironzerg79 wrote: »

It's just...they said the idea was to REDUCE bag clutter...yet here we are with 40 additional pieces of stuff to keep in our bags

That's just the spin they put on refinement changes. The real purpose was further monetizing refinement.

iamannoyingdevil · February 2015

ironzerg79 wrote: »

If I counted right, that's 40 stones added since the addition of the "New" Refinement system.
.

Don't forget that a lot of these have bound and unbound versions that cannot be stacked .

ironzerg79 · February 2015

I just don't get why we need all these stones. For example.

A union stone gives 2500 RP for union artifacts. A stability stone gives 2500 RP for stability artifacts. A power stone gives 2500 RP for power artifacts. A resonance stone gives 2500 RP for Artifact Equipment. A Thaumaturge stone gives 2500 RP for enchantments and runestones.

Why do you need 5 stones that do essentially the same thing? Why not have ONE stone that's worth 2500 RP?

I can understand the upgrade marks...but all these stones?

Why not have:

Pearl: 100 RP -Still necessary for RP drops in low level zones
Peridot: 500 RP
Aquamarine: 2500 RP
Sapphire: 5000 RP
Opal: 10,000 RP
Ruby: 50,000 RP
Diamond: 100,000 RP

And call it a day? You cut the clutter in half.

Then take the Marks, and eliminate the Union/Stability/Power thing...I know it seemed cool on paper, but in practice it's just needlessly complex.

Have you Marks of Potency - White/Green/Blue/Purple and then convert all the other marks into Marks of Creation - White/Green/Blue/Purple.

Any refinement equation has the marks of Union/Stability/Power changed to Marks of Creation.

zeusom · February 2015

We have large, dedicated bags for Profession Resources, Profession Assets, and Companions.

A simple but complete (and easy to implement) solution is to have a large dedicated bag for all refinement items. Just like profession resources, all RP items go into this bag space when picked up

burkaanc · February 2015

or simply make RP like gold - auto pickup and just a number in inventory, problem solved

ladysylvia · February 2015

zeusom wrote: »

We have large, dedicated bags for Profession Resources, Profession Assets, and Companions.

A simple but complete (and easy to implement) solution is to have a large dedicated bag for all refinement items. Just like profession resources, all RP items go into this bag space when picked up

Either this or really removing 285675 types of refinement items.

darkstarcrash · February 2015

burkaanc wrote: »

or simply make RP like gold - auto pickup and just a number in inventory, problem solved

That's not a good idea: if my GF who is mainly a crafting/leadership alt gets some RP, I want the option to pass it on to my SW whom I actively play and gear competitively.

Originally the refining system *did* help with bag clutter: throw enchantments and runestones you pick up as you play into appropriate enchantments in your gear or into your artifacts, maybe have one extra high-ranked enchantment in your bag if you are building to the next rank.

But with the prospective of double-refinement weekends, I've been saving all my enchantment/runestone drops, filling up shared bank slots, a private guild bank, multiple rows of an alt's bank slots... Plus all the extra types of RP and marks taking more and more slots.

I think I've only ever gotten one artifact stone (Union Stone, etc.) so that hasn't been an issue so far, but now the new Leadership tasks can drop those as well as new Thaumaturge stones for enchantments/runestones.

Yuck.

burkaanc · February 2015

darkstarcrash wrote: »

That's not a good idea: if my GF who is mainly a crafting/leadership alt gets some RP, I want the option to pass it on to my SW whom I actively play and gear competitively.

make it acc wide or so that you can deposit it in the bank, dont see any problem

vteasy · February 2015

I have to agree with the OP. This is getting out of hand and is unnecessary. Just increase the rate of universal stones (peridots, etc) instead of adding another category just for enchant/runestones. I am just not seeing the big picture

ironzerg79 · February 2015

vteasy wrote: »

I am just not seeing the big picture

Speaking of this, try explaining the Refinement system to a totally new player. It's absolutely baffling.

And when new people try the game and start to feel overwhelmed and confused, they tend to just quit instead of sticking around. Understanding refinement is an important part of this game...but why it's now so off-the-wall complex, I have no idea.

thedemien · February 2015

With the amount of stones/ Marks/ Gems and shard in my bad- I already have separate bag per char to slot it. It feels like Im playing some sort of crush saga game. Just need to wait for 2x RP to crush it all.
But due to generous cryptic that promised to "make 2X RP more often then once a mod (lol) if it will be needed" and "works on making RP take less space and be more friendly to players" I might run out of space and start my crush saga sooner then I would like.

BTW not sure 100% if they fixed it but the only workaround to put 2nd Hoard bag was via gateaway. In real game errors were failing when you tried to open reward chest with another bag. I have one bag via dragonborn pack btw. So it is not like they can make a lot of money with bugs preventing even using more bags.)

beckylunatic · February 2015

ironzerg79 wrote: »

It's just...they said the idea was to REDUCE bag clutter...yet here we are with 40 additional pieces of stuff to keep in our bags

It's more than that, but I don't feel like typing it all up again.

stah01 · February 2015

They want you to have more stuff so you buy more bags.. the sad part is they cap it. Capped bags, bag space, bank slots and shared bank slots. Let me have 2 - 3 more bags and more bank/shared bank space and problem solved.

Or just rid of this HAMSTER refining system.

query523 · February 2015

Save space LOL. I have a bag, all of an alt's bags, and an alt's bank full of RP waiting to find out what arti equip will mean in Mod6.......

loboguild · February 2015

Maybe it would make sense to remove Rank 4 and Rank 5 enchantments/runestones from the loot tables and add the RP value in Refining Stones instead?

They could add R4/5 enchantments/runestones to the Wondrous Bazaar for a small AD fee if you need one to start a new enchantment/runestone, but you most likely use lockboxes R6/7 to start anyway.

ayroux · February 2015

loboguild wrote: »

Maybe it would make sense to remove Rank 4 and Rank 5 enchantments/runestones from the loot tables and add the RP value in Refining Stones instead?

They could add R4/5 enchantments/runestones to the Wondrous Bazaar for a small AD fee if you need one to start a new enchantment/runestone, but you most likely use lockboxes R6/7 to start anyway.

Or they could just enable you to drop entire STACKS into a slot and refine the entire stack.

Also they could make any RP items worth the RP that was invested into them. This would mean its actually worthwhile to use rank 7s/8s/9s AS RP rather than taking STACKS of lower level ranks. Then you could take a rank 8 or 9 enchant, feed it with RP and then invest that one big item for TONS of RP

Then you would actually feel like it was creating a "snowball" effect like players do with artifacts lvl 59 putting them into a higher level one

loboguild · February 2015

I'm all for letting us dump complete stacks of RPs into items but that doesn't help with bagspace. 100% RP return from R7/8/9 would though.

jaotut · February 2015

I think an option to slot more than 5 bags would be great.

Perhaps a good suggestion is to add a quest for the new zone to reward a 30 slot bag in a new slot.

grogthemagnif · February 2015

Fine, YOU buy Cryptic 96 slots for 15,000,000 characters on the server out of your own pocket. Remember every character can have 54+ characters (2 starters, 4 from packs/give-aways and you can buy up to 48 more character slots. The average is 8 or less. Once a year, maybe, we may get an increase of 16 slots in each of the Professions bags due to new professions.

Cryptic should be able to do your request about 3 years after they finish previous requests for a stable for mounts and a wardrobe for costumes.

zeusom wrote: »

We have large, dedicated bags for Profession Resources, Profession Assets, and Companions.

A simple but complete (and easy to implement) solution is to have a large dedicated bag for all refinement items. Just like profession resources, all RP items go into this bag space when picked up

Unknown · February 2015

This content has been removed.

ucanthandle · February 2015

The idea of making runes/enchants etc work like profession items would be nice. You pick up a rune and it stacks without taking up bag space. You could sell or trade them just like you can sell other profession items, just them having their own tab for stacks would be nice. Since this is pretty much as involved and has as many different types of items as professions it only makes sense. I tend to sped almost as much time trying to organize my bags because of all the items for refining as I do actually playing the game (I guess I'm a little OCD about being able to visit a merchant and just sell everything out of certain bags without having to skip through finding what I need to keep and what I dont).

grogthemagnif · February 2015

Yes, you are right in that 'Originally' the refining system "did" help with bag clutter where 4 rank 1s made 1 rank 2, 4 Rank 2s made a rank 3, 4 Rank 3s made a rank 4, etc. to 4 rank 9s made 1 rank 10. Refining was done with wards which you found, found in Nightmare lockboxes, or bought from the Zen store. All you needed in your pack were Enchants, Runes and Wards.

My suggestion is keep everything, but make everything that is not a gem refinable (at least in artifacts) where white is worth 500RP, Green 2500 RP, Blue 5000, and purple 10,000 RP. That does include armor on Artifact equipment. Head, Waist, Main Hand and Off Hand would still be doubled if refined into the same artifact slot, Head to head , Waist to waist, etc. Gems keep their RP value and cannot be increased in value.

3 Final thoughts:

1. Get rid of the Required 5th Purple Rune/Enchant and you only need a Ward as a reagent (if you choose) to refine after you've added 3 additional runes/enchants - especially with the Main Hand/Armor Enchants that come allegedly - ready to refine, but need 4 additional enchants to refine.

2. I still like IronZergs idea of using xp to refine artifact equipment.

3. Remember, each character may have 50 or more Companion with 3 Runes each and need 20 Neck, Waist and Ring items to use on the 5 Active companions. All these Runes/Enchants need to refined up to Rank 12.

Originally the refining system *did* help with bag clutter: throw enchantments and runestones you pick up as you play into appropriate enchantments in your gear or into your artifacts, maybe have one extra high-ranked enchantment in your bag if you are building to the next rank.

hercules125 · February 2015

I agree with the idea of losing all the refinement gems, and just make it like gold. Call them refinement gems, mithril, whatever.
When you get a drop, you don't get different types of gems, just varying stack sizes of this one type of currency.
Have ONE slot on the refining screen where you get to specify a specific number or ALL.

Would also like an option to auto-convert green and blue item drops into these refinement gems - and eliminate the difference between
equipment artifacts and the original artifacts on the bottom row. They all take the same thing.

Nice, clean, simple - eliminates all clutter in your bags and eliminates all the clicking and dragging.

totallynotfrish · February 2015

ironzerg79 wrote: »

It's just...they said the idea was to REDUCE bag clutter...yet here we are with 40 additional pieces of stuff to keep in our bags

It was possibly marketing point to ease us into artifact equipment that use the same refining interface. Another thing that was originally good was the reduced coal ward number which they decided to bind later making it have practically no difference to the way it used to be on the high end, more expensive on the low end. Had they bound wards to begin with, I'm not sure they refinement system would be accepted well. It's about easing us into it. Also they of course want us to buy bag space. I can just about manage the bound rp stones, but idk how people manage with the bound fey drops. They're too often to constantly maintain, but if you don't it doubles the space it takes up which is so much.

sapientsatis · February 2015

More refinement types -> more bag space -> more bags needed -> people buy zen to buy bags.
Simple.

Refinement Items? This is getting out of hand

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