checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited February 2015
In response to the community moderator and other posts on this thread who seem to make the claim that feeding the current offhand into the new offhand (or any other artifact gear) solves the issue of complaint and disappointment, the main point and the math do not support the claim. In fact the main complaint remains (and the evidence from preview seems to support it).
What is the main complaint?
1. Just in case you have trouble wading through the issue, it is this: the developers stated the artifacts and artifact gear is the kind of gear that one would "hold onto for a long time." The entire difficulty of refining the artifacts and artifact gear was supported in the original assurances given by the developers that the difficulty of refining said pieces would be worth it because the gear would not be replaced. THEREFORE, any comparison to non-artifact or artifact gear is not logical, because that kind of gear never was given an assurance by developers as to its longevity.
2. The release on preview of a replacement artifact offhand reveal a thinking and planning on Cryptic developers to obsolete current artifact gear. Now, it is at this point where the community moderator and others have jumped on and written essentially, "why still complain? you can feed the old into the new and still have a great offhand."
Here is my full reply. And I will support it with math.
Had the player-based known that artifact gear was going to be replaced and that there was no basis for the assurance given by the developers, then some players would not have levelled the current artifact gear up to maximum, and instead would have saved grinded and/or purchased refinement points for the next release. Why? Because from all the examples above, if you feed an old artifact gear into a new artifact gear, you will lose between 20-60% of your investment in the current gear, investment that if retained, would have given you a higher new artifact gear piece. Consider, which one of you would be happy with an investment if it resulted in a 20-60% loss based on a broken promise?
Consider these two scenarios, for any comparison must be apples to apples:
1) You level current artifact gear to level 60, costing 4.7Mil rp, because you have been assured by devs that it will remain. You feed it to the new artifact gear (same kind) on a non 2x rp weekend. Your new piece gains 1.8Mil rp from the feeding. This means you still need 2.9Mil rp to max to 60 (new levels not included).
2) You level current artifact gear to level 35, costing 900k rp. You grind an additional 3.8Mil rp to save for next mod because you know that the current artifact gear is not going to remain in future modules. You feed old artifact (same kind) on a non 2x rp weekend. Your new piece gains 345k rp. You refine the saved 3.8Mil into the arti gear, for a total of 4.15Mil.
From scenario 1, which is based on the promise of the devs and according to the logic of the community moderator and others on this thread, you should be happy that 4.7Mil rp is now 1.8Mil rp and you only need 2.9Mil more to get to 60.
From scenario 2, your new artifact would have 4.15Mil rp, only needing 550k to level 60.
These comparisons can be modified to include any of the scenarios of 2x rp weekend as listed above posts, and in every case, saving rp instead of putting it into the current artifact gear would have been a better response. Keep it to the same comparison. Don't quote part of this mathematical response and then change a variable on one side. That is poor math.
So, my orignal complaint remains. If the evidence from preview of the artifact gear off hand remains, then the developers have misled the player base. Period.
My hope is that the developers consider the assurance that was given. Preview is a bag of worms, and I agree in part that it is speculation. But reacting to developer-shared ideas on preview that seem to conflict with developer assurances is not speculation, but a duty of players who want the developers to know fully what the response to a chosen course will be. Thus, my disappointment is justified at present and rightly expressed in appropriate feedback to even the idea of obsoleting current artifact gear with replacement artifact gear.
Wrong. You can feed your existing artifact weapon into the new one, so you're not starting from scratch. It's a 40% return so it's better than absolutely nothing. P.
i will try to reply to this as politely as possible.
If I asked you to check your back account balance and just deposit 60% of it to my bank account , would you really feel ok ? Because thats not very different from what you are trying to convince people to do .
I hope the devs rethink this idea, atleast put the old artefact weapon/offhand into a medicore position between the new omain/offhand and the current one. Everything else is pure betrayal and money-robbing from the players, do you actually realise people are finishing their main and epecially offhand RIGHT NOW???? It's the current module, which gave us the offhand, with a month delay of Tiamat spawning! My offhand on my Hunter is about 20 days old! This is such freaking nonsense, I cannot believe it! Taking away money and time from players and destroying every purpose of the game, why would now anyone go for Module 6 and farm, when in Module 7 everything will be outdated AGAIN?
i will try to reply to this as politely as possible.
If I asked you to check your back account balance and just deposit 60% of it to my bank account , would you really feel ok ? Because thats not very different from what you are trying to convince people to do .
How incredibly backward this logic is. People wouldn't leave in the first place if there wasn't a system as cumbersome as the current refinement system.
"We create a terrible system that cause people to log out. We create a double RP weekend to bring them back to make up for that terrible system. "
Honestly, we already have enough refining to do with the increased level on enchantments and artifacts. Throwing out new artifact equipment will just compound already gargantuan refining requirements.
And if anybody says, "you don't need artifact equipment to do x, etc.", don't repeat a flawed and old trope. Many people have already paid money to get old artifact equipment to legendary, and if they release this, they set a precedent that any effort put into artifact equipment this game is destroyed in months, which only disincentivizes any further spending. If you repeat that old trope again, you show players that the only way to get lasting effective fun, is to play completely free, and once again, how does Cryptic make any money if that's the case?
Refining all over again, spending hours doing repetitive clicking getting barely any levels is not fun, especially when the player can simply jump into another game that doesn't cost nearly as much as this one and simply get right into the fun.
Agreed. That logic is downright backwards and stinks of greediness and bad design.
It is very disappointing to see a lot of the unpopular aspects of modules 4&5 are still widely present in module 6.
I hope the devs reconsider these decisions before module 6 goes live.
i will try to reply to this as politely as possible.
If I asked you to check your back account balance and just deposit 60% of it to my bank account , would you really feel ok ? Because thats not very different from what you are trying to convince people to do .
Yep. Good analogy. No its not alright and sadly, this is something the devs will need to get otherwise, there will be a discord between what they think is right and what most of the feedback their getting is asking for.
I have spent a decent ammount of time AD etc. to farm/buy RP R4/R5 enchants to refine my chars artefacts and artefact gear.
During the last double RP weekend I refined for TWELVE hours, feeding artefacts with R4 and gear with peridots, gear and some resonance stones I found. It was mind numbing and boring, but I thought, ok, you only have to do it once...
Even if I would feel enclined to farm again for hours, to level the items up to mystic, transcendend, R12 etc, I wont be grateful for a 'as is state' on preview, that sums up to 'ok, we lied to you, but you just wasted all your time and 60% of your RP, it could be worse'.
In the end, it all still boils down to choice. Until the scaling is actually finalized, I haven't seen anything compelling that would make the jump worth the investment required. If one chooses to make that investment, then it should be understood what that investment would require, and what changes are being made to obtaining RP to mitigate that investment.
"Not obsoleted" does not equate to "always BiS". It means that the current gear is still a viable and sufficient choice for existing and planned content. Unless you're a min-maxer that counts every single point, from what I've seen 70 gear is a sidegrade at best. At the dev-stated metric of "400 points in a stat is equal to 1% in that stat" with the new curves, 144 extra isn't even worth mentioning. To reiterate again: until scaling is finalized it's difficult to make a complete assessment.
Bottom line is that it's up to the player to decide if the few extra stats gained is worth the investment that would be required with a new weapon. And there should be an investment required. With scaling, the current artifact weapons are still a good, viable choice. They're just not going to be the absolute BEST choice.
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Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
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In the end, it all still boils down to choice. Until the scaling is actually finalized, I haven't seen anything compelling that would make the jump worth the investment required. If one chooses to make that investment, then it should be understood what that investment would require, and what changes are being made to obtaining RP to mitigate that investment.
"Not obsoleted" does not equate to "always BiS". It means that the current gear is still a viable and sufficient choice for existing and planned content. Unless you're a min-maxer that counts every single point, from what I've seen 70 gear is a sidegrade at best. At the dev-stated metric of "400 points in a stat is equal to 1% in that stat" with the new curves, 144 extra isn't even worth mentioning. To reiterate again: until scaling is finalized it's difficult to make a complete assessment.
Bottom line is that it's up to the player to decide if the few extra stats gained is worth the investment that would be required with a new weapon. And there should be an investment required. With scaling, the current artifact weapons are still a good, viable choice. They're just not going to be the absolute BEST choice.
With all due respect , but you are either misinformed or intentionally misleading people . The dragon artifact off-hand only has bonus artifact powers for the old passives/encounters . The elemental dragon off-hand has bonus powers for the new skills/passives and whatnot .So its not just stats
Your attempts to calm us down are futile ,and only making things worse.
With all due respect , but you are either misinformed or intentionally misleading people . The dragon artifact off-hand only has bonus artifact powers for the old passives/encounters . The elemental dragon off-hand has bonus powers for the new skills/passives and whatnot .So its not just stats
Your attempts to calm us down are futile ,and only making things worse.
I think you're mistaking my intention here. I'm not trying to "calm anyone" because I know people are going to complain for no other reason beyond "new artifact gear, this sucks", so that's an exercise in futility. I'm just saying look at the bigger picture involved.
A few extra bells and whistles or new shinies doesn't justify the RP cost or investment of time that would be required. I stand by my statements: It is a choice, not mandatory. I'm not sure you even read the entirety of my post and merely cherry-picked what you wanted to argue.
The devs never promised that current artifact gear would continue to be BiS. They said it would not be obsoleted quickly. Translation: the gear would not be so eclipsed as to make its replacement mandatory in order to remain at a competitive (competitive, which does not necessarily mean "always BiS") level for some time. So, it's a matter of whether you feel the change in gear is worth the investment that would be required.
I will reiterate: Current artifact gear is still quite viable as a choice. However, it isn't always going to be the BiS choice--the devs never promised that. Whether you feel that the upgrade is worth the cost is up to you. IMO, unless you're counting every single point and new shiny, there isn't a compelling reason to switch from current artifacts to the new ones at this time. If you choose to upgrade, then you have to understand the cost that comes with it, and that there IS a significant cost.
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Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Again, still not enough to justify the investment involved. I stand by my statements: It is a choice, not mandatory. I'm not sure you even read the entirety of my post and merely cherry-picked what you wanted to argue.
The devs never promised that current artifact gear would continue to be BiS. They said it would not be obsoleted quickly. Translation: the gear would not be so eclipsed as to make its replacement almost mandatory for some time. So, it's a matter of whether you feel the change in gear is worth the investment that would be required.
Well, yeah, everything is a choice. Even salvaging /discarding all your gear is a choice . Is that good enough reason to welcome the new changes? Thats not really an argument .
And with all due respect , I for 1 read your posts as a whole (repetitive as they are -no pun intended) . Do you read my posts ? Cuz while I commented on you saying that "hey its not the end of the world,just feed your old artifact to the new one , and even tho you 'll lose 60% of your investment , everything is fine "- which I , as your customer feel insulted by , you replied back with the same pill "choices,not that great an upgrade, not mandatory to use something that will clearly rule next mod" (ask HRs how they will feel when they take on their new awesome passive and realize that they could enhance it furthermore ,only to find out that they either throw a ridiculous amount of ad/dollars away , or spend another ridiculous amount of dollars anyway). As I said , not making this any better.
Well, yeah, everything is a choice. Even salvaging /discarding all your gear is a choice . Is that good enough reason to welcome the new changes? Thats not really an argument .
And with all due respect , I for 1 read your posts as a whole (repetitive as they are -no pun intended) . Do you read my posts ? Cuz while I commented on you saying that "hey its not the end of the world,just feed your old artifact to the new one , and even tho you 'll lose 60% of your investment , everything is fine "- which I , as your customer feel insulted by , you replied back with the same pill "choices,not that great an upgrade, not mandatory to use something that will clearly rule next mod" (ask HRs how they will feel when they take on their new awesome passive and realize that they could enhance it furthermore ,only to find out that they either throw a ridiculous amount of ad/dollars away , or spend another ridiculous amount of dollars anyway). As I said , not making this any better.
At the end of the day, it's still a choice. Nothing you have said changes that. If you choose to upgrade, you do so with the knowledge that there is a significant investment involved, and that you will not get back the full investment of your RP. If not, then your current artifact is not a terrible choice. However, it was never promised that current artifact gear would perpetually remain BiS. You simply aren't going to be grandfathered a legendary (or mythic, should they go that far) because you feel you should have one. It isn't about "ruling" or "being the absolute best" although, yes, I know there are people that count every point and passive and what-have-you and seemingly only care about being top dog. It's about whether it's worth it to you to make that change. You have a choice this time, instead of the alternative being clearly and patently inferior.
Keep in mind that I'm a player who has farmed quite a bit for the gear that I do have--and that's part of why I don't see a compelling need to upgrade. I just don't see the need to farm even more RP as well as spending a substantial amount of AD to get a passive that may add a percentage point or two to my damage or whatnot. There's just nothing that stands out and says "you must get this now". I've also never seen anything OMGWTFBBQ in the current passives that the offhands have, let alone any new ones. You do, or some other guy does--fine, that's your choice, but you do so with the understanding of the investment involved. If it's not acceptable to you, no one's holding a gun to your head and saying "upgrade NOW!!". Just know that you aren't going to get a straight trade-up. You're going to have to work a little. Again, if it's unacceptable to you, no one's saying that it's an absolute requirement. Look at the bigger picture, please, instead of just moaning "OMG, more artifact gear, really?"
Also, you're not MY customer--I'm strictly a volunteer, not paid staff. Please do read the disclaimer in my sig: My opinions are NOT the company line, nor do my opinions represent those of anyone employed by Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. As a player of this game, I am allowed my own opinions and therefore they should not be taken in any way as indicative of the company's stance towards players or any given issue. Kindly do refrain from mischaracterizing my opinions (and these have been clearly stated at many points as my personal opinions) as those of the company, as they are not.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
At the end of the day, it's still a choice.
(...) Again, if it's unacceptable to you, no one's saying that it's an absolute requirement. Look at the bigger picture, please, instead of just moaning "OMG, more artifact gear, really?"
Also, you're not MY customer--I'm strictly a volunteer, not paid staff.
Well said.
I suppose that there will be other weapon that won't be artifact and can be as good or not far behind.
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited February 2015
I will respond to the community moderator's flow of argument, as he is attempting to provide an interpretation to the original assurance given by developers that is contrary to what was stated in context. Additionally, the community moderator has now abandoned his argument earlier of 'not speculating' to 'its your fault anyway because it was your choice." I will respond to both now.
First, the interpretation of the developer's assurance is misinterpreted. There is a normal course of replacement of gears in module releases across multiple kinds of MMOs. Any person who has played any kind of online game has the normative expectation that gear can be replaced by better gear and will be replaced in time with the release of new modules, especially level cap raises. Thus, pursuing of investment in gear is on a cost/benefit analysis (other than the role playing subclass). This is common and needs no further proof. What is uncommon are assurances given by developers that certain kinds of gear or items will remain at or near BiS because of the extreme cost of making them so. In fact, when artifacts and artifact gear were announced and released, the unusual and rare assurance given by the developers to the player base was to convince them that investing in these items was worth it, not because of the maxed stats that they might give, but because the level of their advantage could only be achieved by difficult investment (time and/or money). Therefore, developers gave assurances that such investment would be maintained in the long term. This assurance added longevity to the cost/benefit analysis of the gear. CHOICES made by players to invest was based on the unusual/rare assurance of the developers, and not solely on their own internal desire to be maxed at all times. This is where, once again, the community moderator, has obfuscated the complaint. Player's choices were made on the assurance of the developers, assurances which were (and are) uncommon and unexpected. Therefore, to state that the choice for artifact gear is merely about wanting to max is not the whole of the argument. I repeat: what player, if they had known that the artifact gear would be obsoleted, would have maxed the gear? Answer: not all. There are other ways that time and money could have been invested that have remained from module to module.
As to the second point that the new gear does not obsolete the old gear, I reply with initial assurance given by the devs as to the superiority of the gear, its high cost, and its longevity assured. The cost to get the bonuses of the gear in time and/or money were known by both developers and players. It is not difficult to see that some feel the brunt of such cost under the currently restrictive rp-gain system. However, the assurance that such investment in time and money in said gear was attached directly to the nature of that gear's usefulness and its promised usefulness in the long term. Here is where the community moderator, again, has attempted to make the choice that of your own. It is widely known that the formulaic curves in mod 6 are so vastly different with the level cap increases that current gear points are almost worthless at higher levels. Read that again. And again! So, the developers only promised to raise the current artifact gear 20 (some have urged 30) levels to compete. However, the stat points of even the reworked gear does not fit the assurance given that the investment in that gear would be the same. New artifact gear surpasses old artifact gear, not by a little, but by a lot. Why is this? Because level 70 content will require such a massive increase in statistical categories TO REMAIN USEFUL (ie. not be obsolete). But, instead of changing current artifact gear into level 70 equivalent gear with similar stats, rather there is a release of new level 70 artifact gear (that will probably be permitted to go above level 60 as well). Current artifact gear, even with reworked stats, is so poor in comparison to ANY gear on preview (not just other artifact gear), as to make USEFULNESS at level 70 epic content questionable at best. The only category that is buffed to a level 70ish similarity is the damage of the main hand weapon. Necks, belts, offhand, main hand: all languish currently well below the statistical categories that will be necessary to be USEFUL in the new dungeons and HEs at level 70. Adding 20 levels to current artifact gear will do little to make it comparable (rp to usefulness gain). Thus, in comparison to all the variations of testing on preview at level 70, current artifact gear in its makeup will be OBSOLETE. And, the buff on the old artifact gear has not happened to be equivalent to permit usefulness. And in conjunction with this, NEW ARTIFACT GEAR is released, gear that will have stats and bonuses (etc) that will keep USEFULNESS at level 70 epic dungeons. So, the evidence is this: there is NEW ARTIFACT GEAR that is far superior to current gear, current gear on preview, even buffed, is woefully deficient at level 70, current gear is supposed to be better if we add 20 levels(which will be a large investment of rp for less gain than if one just gets epic or NEW ARTIFACT GEAR, which requires loss of investment AND replacement TO BE USEFUL AT LEVEL 70 epic. This scenario is exactly CONTRARY to the unusual assurance given by developers to the player base when artifact gear was released.
Finally, some above seem to think that it is a requirement to get artifact gear. It isn't. It never was. But do not let that mistake the initial complaint that many within the player based invested in artifact gear based on the unusual assurances by the developers that such investment would be for the long term. I fault no one if they chose to ignore assurances by developers and never used artifact gear. My complaint is still the same, a potential broken assurance by the developers that investment in artifact gear would be long term. If it comes to pass, I will take it as broken trust and will play the game with that kind of attitude.
Thank you for your time in reading this! Regardless of future posts, I have done my duty to make my disappointment in the possible obsolescence of current artifact gear known.
Honestly starting new isnt a bad thing (even though as stated you can get rp from old weps even though its a really small amount compared to what was put in). At level 70 people need to use new gear etc. No level 50 weapon or belt is as good as a level 60 one. Much of the rp used was gained through bots etc. Yes some people gained it the hard way (I for one have never used a bot and have 2 characters with full legendaries except for the necks). Maybe with the new drop rates of higher stones refining will be easier, also you can now gain refinement from leadership. Gaining access to resonance stones at a much higher rate in the new mod will actually make going from 1-max faster than going from 1-60 in the current artifacts. Sure the RP cost is doubled pretty much but you gain RP more than 2x as fast. In the end this will give the average player a better chance to compete. New players will be able to come into the game without feeling like they are 2 years of farming behind.
There is also a downside. Players do feel like they wasted much needed RP. Most people did expect current artifact equipment to be best in slot for longer than a few months. It is obvious the developers are still learning what works and what does not work. With artifact equipment being released at the start of level 70 characters hopefully this will give its life as BIS a much longer timeline.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited February 2015
The supporters simply don't get it. Everyone was against artifact gear when it was announced. People gave in and just worked with it. But only a couple months later the thing you invested so much in is just going to end up as trash in slot after pumping way too much RP required to get them to legendary. DEVs and supporters telling you too bad, gotta go through it all over again, if you can afford it this time. Have a nice day.
It is quite amusing to see the extent to which people have gone into complete and utter freakout mode over their artifact equipment when we don't even know how good/bad the new gear will be, how the whole stats/weapon scaling thing will work out (it isn't working correctly right now), how plentiful RP will be in the new mod, or anything like that.
It is quite amusing to see the extent to which people have gone into complete and utter freakout mode over their artifact equipment when we don't even know how good/bad the new gear will be, how the whole stats/weapon scaling thing will work out (it isn't working correctly right now), how plentiful RP will be in the new mod, or anything like that.
Yep. Said this earlier in the thread, no less. As I've said, I see nothing compelling to make me want to jump from 60 to 70 artifact gear, and that's even if my gear WERE full legendary. For those who think I don't understand what it is to have to earn RP, I'll just say that I put anywhere from 6 to 10 hours DAILY farming. I know it's not fun. And that's just one of many reasons why I don't see the point in upgrading--and therefore having to re-farm 60% of that investment--for a few stats and a new shiny passive. Even at full legendary, when scaling is applied it's still a viable choice for almost all content (but, obviously, the min-max world of competitive PVP) in the game now and for some time in the future.
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Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited February 2015
It has been stated that content in the game is not designed with the thought that players must have the best gear and enchants to complete it. If one goes that route, that is their decision. I only have one character that has more than one artifact equipment, both only at blue quality, and the others that do have artifact equipment are green belts. I do just fine in any and all content thus far and doing just fine in that content lets me gradually raise in power and efficiency whilst enjoying the game regardless of what is considered "best in slot."
The better or "best" things in the game are there for who want it. They are not there for anyone who "needs" it, for no one "needs" it.
What you clearly do not understand is, every customer who paid money to get BiS in Module 5 will certainly feel left in the dark. Module 5 aint out and the developers start working on Module 6 to outdate just implemented gear? Are you serious? It should last atleast one module without be touched. Everything else is blasphemy.
Those artifacts are not obsolete. They will do just fine.
What you clearly do not understand is, every customer who paid money to get BiS in Module 5 will certainly feel left in the dark. Module 5 aint out and the developers start working on Module 6 to outdate just implemented gear? Are you serious? It should last atleast one module without be touched. Everything else is blasphemy.
And again, it was never promised that existing artifacts would remain BiS; rather, stated that they would not be rendered obsolete and an upgrade would be necessary. It's not necessary to upgrade your arti to 70 to complete any content in mod 6.
To sit here and rail and rage against the devs for the "crime" of offering an alternative is completely premature considering that we don't even know the full extent of how existing artifact gear will pan out in mod 6.
And for those who claim that I'm blindly defending the devs: My first thought was "why?". Then I looked at all the available facts and figures, and decided it wasn't something that needed to be raged about because, IMO, it's not much more than a sidegrade, and there isn't enough available and concrete facts at hand to make an objective comparison.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
What you clearly do not understand is, every customer who paid money to get BiS in Module 5 will certainly feel left in the dark. Module 5 aint out and the developers start working on Module 6 to outdate just implemented gear? Are you serious? It should last atleast one module without be touched. Everything else is blasphemy.
Here's a tip for long-lasting happiness in Neverwinter. Don't BUY gear for the sake of BUYING gear. Earn it. Play for it. Grind for it. Or whatever. Exchange some Zen for AD if you feel the need to rush.
But at the end of the day, the money you spend on Neverwinter should be considered entertainment dollars. Like going to the movies. Or playing mini-golf. Or buying a date dinner. Enjoy what you spend the money on because of the activity, not the end result.
And even to that end, it's an MMO. It's always changing. And there's always going to be someone with better gear. And there's always going to be better gear to get. It never ends, so while you might get to the summit of one mountain, there's always another on the horizon.
At the end of the day, no one cares what YOUR gear looks like. Seeing a guy in full R10's, Legendary Artifacts, Purple Companions, with the highest achievable gearscore doesn't mean anything to me. It doesn't make my game "less fun". And when I look at people like that, do you know what I think?
"Gee, I hope they had fun getting all that stuff."
Here's a tip for long-lasting happiness in Neverwinter. Don't BUY gear for the sake of BUYING gear. Earn it. Play for it. Grind for it. Or whatever. Exchange some Zen for AD if you feel the need to rush.
But at the end of the day, the money you spend on Neverwinter should be considered entertainment dollars. Like going to the movies. Or playing mini-golf. Or buying a date dinner. Enjoy what you spend the money on because of the activity, not the end result.
And even to that end, it's an MMO. It's always changing. And there's always going to be someone with better gear. And there's always going to be better gear to get. It never ends, so while you might get to the summit of one mountain, there's always another on the horizon.
At the end of the day, no one cares what YOUR gear looks like. Seeing a guy in full R10's, Legendary Artifacts, Purple Companions, with the highest achievable gearscore doesn't mean anything to me. It doesn't make my game "less fun". And when I look at people like that, do you know what I think?
"Gee, I hope they had fun getting all that stuff."
Well said. I see many people that seem to approach the game as a job instead of fun and I am perplexed by their attitudes. I myself only ever do what I want to do, I play less than optimal builds purely for the sake of fun (was not always the case). I don't always do what is the best but instead focus on what is the funnest.
i wanna see how this game would even survive if ppls like us didnt spend money on it.
Considering that the average joe, in aggregate, spends more than the "whales", I think it'd do just fine.
To elaborate: Which do you think makes more money and has more impact....15k players spending a modest 20-30 bucks a month, or a couple hundred spending upwards of 100 dollars monthly?
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
tbh i dunno i spend few K dollars to gear up my 3 toons i just simply dont want to do it all over again.
i would like to get r70 artifacts to make some progress but not with current RP prices maybe if they changed hoards to what they used to be b4 nerf and change RP prices on zen market lets say 50-100 zen per blood ruby then i would be fine with it but right now?
another few K dollars to gear up all over again is just too much.
Well, there are some changes being made to the invocation system AND leadership is granting some unbound RP as rewards. It's a start in the correct direction.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Comments
What is the main complaint?
1. Just in case you have trouble wading through the issue, it is this: the developers stated the artifacts and artifact gear is the kind of gear that one would "hold onto for a long time." The entire difficulty of refining the artifacts and artifact gear was supported in the original assurances given by the developers that the difficulty of refining said pieces would be worth it because the gear would not be replaced. THEREFORE, any comparison to non-artifact or artifact gear is not logical, because that kind of gear never was given an assurance by developers as to its longevity.
2. The release on preview of a replacement artifact offhand reveal a thinking and planning on Cryptic developers to obsolete current artifact gear. Now, it is at this point where the community moderator and others have jumped on and written essentially, "why still complain? you can feed the old into the new and still have a great offhand."
Here is my full reply. And I will support it with math.
Had the player-based known that artifact gear was going to be replaced and that there was no basis for the assurance given by the developers, then some players would not have levelled the current artifact gear up to maximum, and instead would have saved grinded and/or purchased refinement points for the next release. Why? Because from all the examples above, if you feed an old artifact gear into a new artifact gear, you will lose between 20-60% of your investment in the current gear, investment that if retained, would have given you a higher new artifact gear piece. Consider, which one of you would be happy with an investment if it resulted in a 20-60% loss based on a broken promise?
Consider these two scenarios, for any comparison must be apples to apples:
1) You level current artifact gear to level 60, costing 4.7Mil rp, because you have been assured by devs that it will remain. You feed it to the new artifact gear (same kind) on a non 2x rp weekend. Your new piece gains 1.8Mil rp from the feeding. This means you still need 2.9Mil rp to max to 60 (new levels not included).
2) You level current artifact gear to level 35, costing 900k rp. You grind an additional 3.8Mil rp to save for next mod because you know that the current artifact gear is not going to remain in future modules. You feed old artifact (same kind) on a non 2x rp weekend. Your new piece gains 345k rp. You refine the saved 3.8Mil into the arti gear, for a total of 4.15Mil.
From scenario 1, which is based on the promise of the devs and according to the logic of the community moderator and others on this thread, you should be happy that 4.7Mil rp is now 1.8Mil rp and you only need 2.9Mil more to get to 60.
From scenario 2, your new artifact would have 4.15Mil rp, only needing 550k to level 60.
These comparisons can be modified to include any of the scenarios of 2x rp weekend as listed above posts, and in every case, saving rp instead of putting it into the current artifact gear would have been a better response. Keep it to the same comparison. Don't quote part of this mathematical response and then change a variable on one side. That is poor math.
So, my orignal complaint remains. If the evidence from preview of the artifact gear off hand remains, then the developers have misled the player base. Period.
My hope is that the developers consider the assurance that was given. Preview is a bag of worms, and I agree in part that it is speculation. But reacting to developer-shared ideas on preview that seem to conflict with developer assurances is not speculation, but a duty of players who want the developers to know fully what the response to a chosen course will be. Thus, my disappointment is justified at present and rightly expressed in appropriate feedback to even the idea of obsoleting current artifact gear with replacement artifact gear.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
i will try to reply to this as politely as possible.
If I asked you to check your back account balance and just deposit 60% of it to my bank account , would you really feel ok ? Because thats not very different from what you are trying to convince people to do .
Bingo! As he said ^
Wonder why people just don't get it.
Agreed. That logic is downright backwards and stinks of greediness and bad design.
It is very disappointing to see a lot of the unpopular aspects of modules 4&5 are still widely present in module 6.
I hope the devs reconsider these decisions before module 6 goes live.
Yep. Good analogy. No its not alright and sadly, this is something the devs will need to get otherwise, there will be a discord between what they think is right and what most of the feedback their getting is asking for.
During the last double RP weekend I refined for TWELVE hours, feeding artefacts with R4 and gear with peridots, gear and some resonance stones I found. It was mind numbing and boring, but I thought, ok, you only have to do it once...
Even if I would feel enclined to farm again for hours, to level the items up to mystic, transcendend, R12 etc, I wont be grateful for a 'as is state' on preview, that sums up to 'ok, we lied to you, but you just wasted all your time and 60% of your RP, it could be worse'.
"Not obsoleted" does not equate to "always BiS". It means that the current gear is still a viable and sufficient choice for existing and planned content. Unless you're a min-maxer that counts every single point, from what I've seen 70 gear is a sidegrade at best. At the dev-stated metric of "400 points in a stat is equal to 1% in that stat" with the new curves, 144 extra isn't even worth mentioning. To reiterate again: until scaling is finalized it's difficult to make a complete assessment.
Bottom line is that it's up to the player to decide if the few extra stats gained is worth the investment that would be required with a new weapon. And there should be an investment required. With scaling, the current artifact weapons are still a good, viable choice. They're just not going to be the absolute BEST choice.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
With all due respect , but you are either misinformed or intentionally misleading people . The dragon artifact off-hand only has bonus artifact powers for the old passives/encounters . The elemental dragon off-hand has bonus powers for the new skills/passives and whatnot .So its not just stats
Your attempts to calm us down are futile ,and only making things worse.
I think you're mistaking my intention here. I'm not trying to "calm anyone" because I know people are going to complain for no other reason beyond "new artifact gear, this sucks", so that's an exercise in futility. I'm just saying look at the bigger picture involved.
A few extra bells and whistles or new shinies doesn't justify the RP cost or investment of time that would be required. I stand by my statements: It is a choice, not mandatory. I'm not sure you even read the entirety of my post and merely cherry-picked what you wanted to argue.
The devs never promised that current artifact gear would continue to be BiS. They said it would not be obsoleted quickly. Translation: the gear would not be so eclipsed as to make its replacement mandatory in order to remain at a competitive (competitive, which does not necessarily mean "always BiS") level for some time. So, it's a matter of whether you feel the change in gear is worth the investment that would be required.
I will reiterate: Current artifact gear is still quite viable as a choice. However, it isn't always going to be the BiS choice--the devs never promised that. Whether you feel that the upgrade is worth the cost is up to you. IMO, unless you're counting every single point and new shiny, there isn't a compelling reason to switch from current artifacts to the new ones at this time. If you choose to upgrade, then you have to understand the cost that comes with it, and that there IS a significant cost.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Well, yeah, everything is a choice. Even salvaging /discarding all your gear is a choice . Is that good enough reason to welcome the new changes? Thats not really an argument .
And with all due respect , I for 1 read your posts as a whole (repetitive as they are -no pun intended) . Do you read my posts ? Cuz while I commented on you saying that "hey its not the end of the world,just feed your old artifact to the new one , and even tho you 'll lose 60% of your investment , everything is fine "- which I , as your customer feel insulted by , you replied back with the same pill "choices,not that great an upgrade, not mandatory to use something that will clearly rule next mod" (ask HRs how they will feel when they take on their new awesome passive and realize that they could enhance it furthermore ,only to find out that they either throw a ridiculous amount of ad/dollars away , or spend another ridiculous amount of dollars anyway). As I said , not making this any better.
At the end of the day, it's still a choice. Nothing you have said changes that. If you choose to upgrade, you do so with the knowledge that there is a significant investment involved, and that you will not get back the full investment of your RP. If not, then your current artifact is not a terrible choice. However, it was never promised that current artifact gear would perpetually remain BiS. You simply aren't going to be grandfathered a legendary (or mythic, should they go that far) because you feel you should have one. It isn't about "ruling" or "being the absolute best" although, yes, I know there are people that count every point and passive and what-have-you and seemingly only care about being top dog. It's about whether it's worth it to you to make that change. You have a choice this time, instead of the alternative being clearly and patently inferior.
Keep in mind that I'm a player who has farmed quite a bit for the gear that I do have--and that's part of why I don't see a compelling need to upgrade. I just don't see the need to farm even more RP as well as spending a substantial amount of AD to get a passive that may add a percentage point or two to my damage or whatnot. There's just nothing that stands out and says "you must get this now". I've also never seen anything OMGWTFBBQ in the current passives that the offhands have, let alone any new ones. You do, or some other guy does--fine, that's your choice, but you do so with the understanding of the investment involved. If it's not acceptable to you, no one's holding a gun to your head and saying "upgrade NOW!!". Just know that you aren't going to get a straight trade-up. You're going to have to work a little. Again, if it's unacceptable to you, no one's saying that it's an absolute requirement. Look at the bigger picture, please, instead of just moaning "OMG, more artifact gear, really?"
Also, you're not MY customer--I'm strictly a volunteer, not paid staff. Please do read the disclaimer in my sig: My opinions are NOT the company line, nor do my opinions represent those of anyone employed by Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. As a player of this game, I am allowed my own opinions and therefore they should not be taken in any way as indicative of the company's stance towards players or any given issue. Kindly do refrain from mischaracterizing my opinions (and these have been clearly stated at many points as my personal opinions) as those of the company, as they are not.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Well said.
I suppose that there will be other weapon that won't be artifact and can be as good or not far behind.
First, the interpretation of the developer's assurance is misinterpreted. There is a normal course of replacement of gears in module releases across multiple kinds of MMOs. Any person who has played any kind of online game has the normative expectation that gear can be replaced by better gear and will be replaced in time with the release of new modules, especially level cap raises. Thus, pursuing of investment in gear is on a cost/benefit analysis (other than the role playing subclass). This is common and needs no further proof. What is uncommon are assurances given by developers that certain kinds of gear or items will remain at or near BiS because of the extreme cost of making them so. In fact, when artifacts and artifact gear were announced and released, the unusual and rare assurance given by the developers to the player base was to convince them that investing in these items was worth it, not because of the maxed stats that they might give, but because the level of their advantage could only be achieved by difficult investment (time and/or money). Therefore, developers gave assurances that such investment would be maintained in the long term. This assurance added longevity to the cost/benefit analysis of the gear. CHOICES made by players to invest was based on the unusual/rare assurance of the developers, and not solely on their own internal desire to be maxed at all times. This is where, once again, the community moderator, has obfuscated the complaint. Player's choices were made on the assurance of the developers, assurances which were (and are) uncommon and unexpected. Therefore, to state that the choice for artifact gear is merely about wanting to max is not the whole of the argument. I repeat: what player, if they had known that the artifact gear would be obsoleted, would have maxed the gear? Answer: not all. There are other ways that time and money could have been invested that have remained from module to module.
As to the second point that the new gear does not obsolete the old gear, I reply with initial assurance given by the devs as to the superiority of the gear, its high cost, and its longevity assured. The cost to get the bonuses of the gear in time and/or money were known by both developers and players. It is not difficult to see that some feel the brunt of such cost under the currently restrictive rp-gain system. However, the assurance that such investment in time and money in said gear was attached directly to the nature of that gear's usefulness and its promised usefulness in the long term. Here is where the community moderator, again, has attempted to make the choice that of your own. It is widely known that the formulaic curves in mod 6 are so vastly different with the level cap increases that current gear points are almost worthless at higher levels. Read that again. And again! So, the developers only promised to raise the current artifact gear 20 (some have urged 30) levels to compete. However, the stat points of even the reworked gear does not fit the assurance given that the investment in that gear would be the same. New artifact gear surpasses old artifact gear, not by a little, but by a lot. Why is this? Because level 70 content will require such a massive increase in statistical categories TO REMAIN USEFUL (ie. not be obsolete). But, instead of changing current artifact gear into level 70 equivalent gear with similar stats, rather there is a release of new level 70 artifact gear (that will probably be permitted to go above level 60 as well). Current artifact gear, even with reworked stats, is so poor in comparison to ANY gear on preview (not just other artifact gear), as to make USEFULNESS at level 70 epic content questionable at best. The only category that is buffed to a level 70ish similarity is the damage of the main hand weapon. Necks, belts, offhand, main hand: all languish currently well below the statistical categories that will be necessary to be USEFUL in the new dungeons and HEs at level 70. Adding 20 levels to current artifact gear will do little to make it comparable (rp to usefulness gain). Thus, in comparison to all the variations of testing on preview at level 70, current artifact gear in its makeup will be OBSOLETE. And, the buff on the old artifact gear has not happened to be equivalent to permit usefulness. And in conjunction with this, NEW ARTIFACT GEAR is released, gear that will have stats and bonuses (etc) that will keep USEFULNESS at level 70 epic dungeons. So, the evidence is this: there is NEW ARTIFACT GEAR that is far superior to current gear, current gear on preview, even buffed, is woefully deficient at level 70, current gear is supposed to be better if we add 20 levels(which will be a large investment of rp for less gain than if one just gets epic or NEW ARTIFACT GEAR, which requires loss of investment AND replacement TO BE USEFUL AT LEVEL 70 epic. This scenario is exactly CONTRARY to the unusual assurance given by developers to the player base when artifact gear was released.
Finally, some above seem to think that it is a requirement to get artifact gear. It isn't. It never was. But do not let that mistake the initial complaint that many within the player based invested in artifact gear based on the unusual assurances by the developers that such investment would be for the long term. I fault no one if they chose to ignore assurances by developers and never used artifact gear. My complaint is still the same, a potential broken assurance by the developers that investment in artifact gear would be long term. If it comes to pass, I will take it as broken trust and will play the game with that kind of attitude.
Thank you for your time in reading this! Regardless of future posts, I have done my duty to make my disappointment in the possible obsolescence of current artifact gear known.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
There is also a downside. Players do feel like they wasted much needed RP. Most people did expect current artifact equipment to be best in slot for longer than a few months. It is obvious the developers are still learning what works and what does not work. With artifact equipment being released at the start of level 70 characters hopefully this will give its life as BIS a much longer timeline.
Yep. Said this earlier in the thread, no less. As I've said, I see nothing compelling to make me want to jump from 60 to 70 artifact gear, and that's even if my gear WERE full legendary. For those who think I don't understand what it is to have to earn RP, I'll just say that I put anywhere from 6 to 10 hours DAILY farming. I know it's not fun. And that's just one of many reasons why I don't see the point in upgrading--and therefore having to re-farm 60% of that investment--for a few stats and a new shiny passive. Even at full legendary, when scaling is applied it's still a viable choice for almost all content (but, obviously, the min-max world of competitive PVP) in the game now and for some time in the future.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
The better or "best" things in the game are there for who want it. They are not there for anyone who "needs" it, for no one "needs" it.
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And again, it was never promised that existing artifacts would remain BiS; rather, stated that they would not be rendered obsolete and an upgrade would be necessary. It's not necessary to upgrade your arti to 70 to complete any content in mod 6.
To sit here and rail and rage against the devs for the "crime" of offering an alternative is completely premature considering that we don't even know the full extent of how existing artifact gear will pan out in mod 6.
And for those who claim that I'm blindly defending the devs: My first thought was "why?". Then I looked at all the available facts and figures, and decided it wasn't something that needed to be raged about because, IMO, it's not much more than a sidegrade, and there isn't enough available and concrete facts at hand to make an objective comparison.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Here's a tip for long-lasting happiness in Neverwinter. Don't BUY gear for the sake of BUYING gear. Earn it. Play for it. Grind for it. Or whatever. Exchange some Zen for AD if you feel the need to rush.
But at the end of the day, the money you spend on Neverwinter should be considered entertainment dollars. Like going to the movies. Or playing mini-golf. Or buying a date dinner. Enjoy what you spend the money on because of the activity, not the end result.
And even to that end, it's an MMO. It's always changing. And there's always going to be someone with better gear. And there's always going to be better gear to get. It never ends, so while you might get to the summit of one mountain, there's always another on the horizon.
At the end of the day, no one cares what YOUR gear looks like. Seeing a guy in full R10's, Legendary Artifacts, Purple Companions, with the highest achievable gearscore doesn't mean anything to me. It doesn't make my game "less fun". And when I look at people like that, do you know what I think?
"Gee, I hope they had fun getting all that stuff."
Well said. I see many people that seem to approach the game as a job instead of fun and I am perplexed by their attitudes. I myself only ever do what I want to do, I play less than optimal builds purely for the sake of fun (was not always the case). I don't always do what is the best but instead focus on what is the funnest.
Considering that the average joe, in aggregate, spends more than the "whales", I think it'd do just fine.
To elaborate: Which do you think makes more money and has more impact....15k players spending a modest 20-30 bucks a month, or a couple hundred spending upwards of 100 dollars monthly?
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Well, there are some changes being made to the invocation system AND leadership is granting some unbound RP as rewards. It's a start in the correct direction.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Also, dailies are giving out RP stones.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com