Suggestion for Cryptic

kvet · February 2015

In light of this article:

http://mmoculture.com/2014/11/perfect-world-income-down-due-to-falling-number-of-neverwinter-players/

I think perhaps you (Cryptic) should spend more time:

A) Listening and RESPONDING to player issues and concerns;

Actively doing something about them and then providing some sort of ongoing feedback (progress) on at least the biggest issues;

C) Stop letting WotC control the content (clearly, there's contractual issues, but if what they are forcing is killing the game, they have a vested interest in backing off a bit); ToD/WoD and now EE... I get the contract stuff and how hard WotC is to work with - trust me I *really* do understand that - but nevertheless, it's actually driving players away. Cryptic is full of awesome, talented people. You don't need WotC to provide you with content, you guys are super-creative. Linking to WotC's marketing efforts, while probably required by your contract, isn't doing Neverwinter any favors.

D) Remember you don't have to monetize EVERYTHING, you only need to monetize the things people would consider worth paying real money for. The more nickle-and-dimeing you do, the less likely you'll retain players, especially since you no longer accept pre-paid cards that kids can ask for for their birthday or good report cards or stocking stuffers, etc... In particularly, don't LIE about being 100% free to play if you're not going to be (aka, the Packs). If there's stuff you *must* pay money for to get in your game, you're not 100% free-to-play (even if those things don't have a real bearing on the game). We're talking about image and retention here, and that sort of stuff really does rub people the wrong way.

If you're having a problem with player retention, the first step is asking yourselves whether your players actually are enjoying your game as much as you THINK they are. It doesn't matter if YOU think it's fun, it matter whether WE do. If WE don't find the game fun, if WE don't feel we're getting satisfaction out of it, if WE feel like it's more tedious than entertaining, the WE will find another game.

As you can see - that's been happening so much that PWE missed it revenue targets in Q3 last year, I haven't seen any information on Q4 or Y2014, but I can't imagine Q4 was much of an improvement. I really do hope PWE and Cryptic take this news seriously.

rashylewizz · February 2015

Agreed with a lot of the points on the article. Question is, does Cryptic?

kvet · February 2015

I just did some digging in Perfect World's earnings and income reports (look them up for yourself: PWRD). Not very good. They have a lowball buyout offer on the table, which is a little scary (especially because it seems too me like the abysmal offer might actually be about what the company is worth, even if it will get the board sued if they take it...). They've missed their earnings targets twice in the last 3 quarters... Despite that, analysts appear... er... cautious optimistic about the company's future. That's good, but again, if player abandonment is the major problem, the problem cannot and will not be solved by ignoring players.

godlysoul2 · February 2015

I've been completely baffled by their decisions to be quite honest. It seems like with this game it is always the case where we get content force fed to us despite outcries from the players. It may be their game or their content of which they are in complete control of, but ultimately the players are the consumers. I don't know of any service or product that so blatantly ignores so much consumer feedback and gives them something else instead. You don't need to design the game around the players, but for goodness sake, at least implement some feedback here.

kvet · February 2015

I know from past experience that WotC is extremely domineering. They viciously hold onto their IP (intellectual property) rights around the D&D brand and insert any number of very harsh requirements into licensing agreements and they are very strict about it. I have no doubt that coordinating ToD/WoD and now EE with WotC's pen and paper versions wasn't Cryptic's idea, which is why Mod 4, 5 and what I've seen so far of Mod 6, are pretty phoned in. Mod6, at least, is less grindy, which is a good thing since it's extremely clear that the player-base hates the grinds required by Shar, DR, IWD and WoD/ToD and the RP system as a whole. I personally don't hate it that much, and its not the sort of thing that would drive me away, although I do have to say that because I'm not willing to pour $100 into the game to upgrade my stuff past R8s, and will NOT even consider the idea of paying $100+ to upgrade a single enchant to R12, I think my character has effectively plateud. I'll likely never earn the last two ToD boons because I can't handle the idea of doing Tiamat even 1 more time now that I got my offhand, much less 100 more to get all the Linu's (yes yes, can donate to the hoard.. maybe get all the Linus in a year or two that way).

That's the problem - I'm one of Cryptic's biggest fans, I've been a customer of theirs for many years... I wanna say... 6 years? maybe more... before they were acquired by PWE anyway, however long that's been. I enjoy their games a lot. And I am feeling... disheartened by Neverwinter. Because I'm not willing to pour in $100 a week on Zen, and because I can't play the game for 6 hours a day every day to grind, I just don't feel my character is advancing. The idea of starting a new one is just crazy - I have 14 toons, but I can't bear grinding the Shar->WoD circuit again.

If I'm feeling disenchanted, then you can only imagine how players who haven't been with Cryptic for longer than most of it's employees have are feeling.

EDIT: By Advancing, I mean, I don't get the sense the time I'm spending playing the game is actually to my benefit. Yes, I have fun, but I don't see the benefit to my character running dailies. I don't feel the rewards of anything in the game are actually compensating for the amount of time spent. I don't feel anything I do in the game is actually improving my character. I realize, of course, it is in very small incremental ways, but see, that's the problem -- the increments are VERY small, too small. I'd have to say that this, more than any other reason, is why Neverwinter is bleeding players. If a player feels his time isn't being well spent, the player will play something else.

thehumancodex · February 2015

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myowmyow · February 2015

kvet wrote: »

I know from past experience that WotC is extremely domineering. They viciously hold onto their IP (intellectual property) rights around the D&D brand and insert any number of very harsh requirements into licensing agreements and they are very strict about it.

Sadly, this is where the disconnect probably occurs - WotC has a lot of control.

I miss Gary Gygax . . .

ixalmaris · February 2015

myowmyow wrote: »

Sadly, this is where the disconnect probably occurs - WotC has a lot of control.

I miss Gary Gygax . . .

GG has not been involved with D&D for a long time.
And also from experience, WotC is very bad with digital products.

myowmyow · February 2015

ixalmaris wrote: »

GG has not been involved with D&D for a long time.
And also from experience, WotC is very bad with digital products.

Yeah, I know GG has been away from D&D for a very long time - I still miss him - I'm an old school AD&D player from the 1970s . . .

hmdq · February 2015

while agreeing with OP think it will never happen unless other game is unfortunately done. wotc is killing his own image to literally choke their contractors and the cryptic / pwe is that is who will pay the price.

thehumancodex · February 2015

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latexrubber · February 2015

The insane pricing different between this game and Perfectworld/Cryptic's other games blows my mind.

I simply do not understand it.

A new race in Star Trek Online: 300 zen, or 3 USD.

A new parts pack in champions online to make basically a new race or completely new look: 300 zen, 3 USD.

A new race in Neverwinter: 2500 zen or 25 dollars for dragon born.

In Star trek online the most expensive things you can buy, a nice top level ship is 2500 dollars and you get three different ships but a good item in neverwinter is a baseline 3000 to 4000? Are you actually serious with this?

Excuse me? No seriously, excuse me? You only had this option for month, previously it was 70 dollars for a ton of garbage and dragonborn and after much hounding you present us with a package that unlocks the race and gives us a race change token for 25 dollars?

I can easily afford either option, but am I getting my money's worth? No, not even close. I want to support you game but when you strong arm such a high price for something so little I cannot help but feel awful.

What happened Cryptic? What in the hell happened? Is perfect world forcing you to go after whales only? To make matters worse we've got to other things: A special golden version of the dragonborn race that is locked behind boxes/keys that will cost you a small fortune to get plus it was said that a free version of every new race would come out around a month later after release, to bad that suddenly stopped with dragonborn.

Why is this happening? Why? And before those of you that say "oh just earn it in game by getting the free currency etc" No, stop right there. This is about those of us with money that want to support the game but also want our money's worth. 40 dollars for a mount, 25 dollars for a player race when you have two other previous games with the same pricing range? Get out, get out right now.

I wouldn't be quite so upset if you didn't have examples of extremely better pricing in two other games you frigging made. I could go on about how other games price their races either free or <5 USD, but I have all the examples I need from games you made entirely. Absolutely disgusting.

thehumancodex · February 2015

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latexrubber · February 2015

thehumancodex wrote: »

The model is find your money maker, hit heavy, hit hard, monetize monetize monetize. Do so for the first few years of launch then cut back. I've seen this model before and it's what almost every F2P game is following these days. Neverwinter is popular. Hence the reason for the massive price differences. Plenty of people play STO too, but honestly, not nearly as many as NWO. If it wasn't for Neverwinter (and more so the D&D brand) Cryptic would be fading away as STO dwindles down to mostly long time users (which is great, but not enough to keep a game going) and none of the other PWE games can mount the popularity that NWO does.

Moral of the story... if NWO starts failing to make revenue, PWE is done. Look at their earnings...

EDIT: I also really think that their attempt to get NWO into console was way too late. I think it's going to be a bumpy road and with the current product they're going to find out how unforgiving the console community really is. (and they very much are.)

If they hit the console community with the same prices they do with the PC one they will get laughed out of the console zone completely. These prices are disgusting as is and after getting **** on harder than PC users, console gamers will lash out much harder at the abuse than PC users will. I still cannot get over the fact that new race on either of their games is 3 dollars while this one is 25. That leaves me such a bitter taste I cannot help but vomit. When I saw the 75 dollar dragonborn thing come up I waited for the free race release like all the other races; that never happened and perfectworld 180'd on it. I then waited for a price drop of some kind, still nothing happened. I then waited for a separate package only to be met with another insane 25 dollar pricing when cheaper options exist within their own games.

Star Trek Online is always full of people doing things everywhere I go, when I tried Neverwinter not even the main town was populated at any time of the day. Despite this, steam current tracks about 4000ish players on neverwinter and about 3500 on STO, is that really worth 22 dollars more on this hit hard and fast bull**** you speak of? Is it really?

kvet · February 2015

thehumancodex wrote: »

I feel like freemium games ruined the market in a away. Game publishers look more now at the immediate several years and what they can heavily monetize out of it to get a decent return for earnings over long term retention.

I think the problem isn't the model - a freemium model CAN work. STO is working pretty well, though they happen to incentivize long-term players with the Veteran rewards. The problem in Neverwinter is they have over-monetized making it feel like all you can really get is baseline stuff unless you grind for months. Seriously, months, maybe even more than a year -- if you think that's not the case, start a new account today, pay no $$ in, give yourself nothing from your main account, contact none of your existing friends or guildmates for help - start completely new, new friends, new guild, pretend you're brand new to the game. Now, under that circumstance... how long to feel like you're in the top, oh, 25% or 30%? Who's really satisfied feeling like they're middling? No one, that's who.

Therein lies the problem. People are leaving in droves - so much so that PWE was forced to report it as part of their quarterly earnings reports. I've see people argue that Neverwinter isn't losing players -- the truth is it IS bleeding players, and it's bleeding so badly it's affecting PWE International's earnings report enough that they had to admit it.

That's a huge problem. Cryptic needs to take it's players seriously or PWE is going to cut it's losses and move on.

kvet · February 2015

magenubbie wrote: »

While I agree with the OP, the article itself isn't very objective. ...

It's not, but I found that same report in other places, and I actually spend some time in my Vanguard account inspecting the last couple years worth of PWE financials and analyst reports. The end of 2014 was bad for them, this quarter it expected to be better, next quarter very bad... long term, it's murky and not a pretty picture... Analysts seems split between Hold and Buy right now, but I think that's because of the buyout offer, otherwise I'd guess the recommendations wouldn't be so good. Given the offer though... the stock is going to tank big-time if that offer isn't rejected. (anyway, go do your own stock research. hah)

thehumancodex · February 2015

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latexrubber · February 2015

kvet wrote: »

I think the problem isn't the model - a freemium model CAN work. STO is working pretty well, though they happen to incentivize long-term players with the Veteran rewards. The problem in Neverwinter is they have over-monetized making it feel like all you can really get is baseline stuff unless you grind for months. Seriously, months, maybe even more than a year -- if you think that's not the case, start a new account today, pay no $$ in, give yourself nothing from your main account, contact none of your existing friends or guildmates for help - start completely new, new friends, new guild, pretend you're brand new to the game. Now, under that circumstance... how long to feel like you're in the top, oh, 25% or 30%? Who's really satisfied feeling like they're middling? No one, that's who.

Therein lies the problem. People are leaving in droves - so much so that PWE was forced to report it as part of their quarterly earnings reports. I've see people argue that Neverwinter isn't losing players -- the truth is it IS bleeding players, and it's bleeding so badly it's affecting PWE International's earnings report enough that they had to admit it.

That's a huge problem. Cryptic needs to take it's players seriously or PWE is going to cut it's losses and move on.

This is a great quote. It's also stuff like this that makes new players like myself not want to even touch the game. What happens when I start this game? I go to make a character and find out half the races are locked behind a pay wall raging between 25-255 dollars, my favorite race not getting a free version of it. That right there is hitting me hard right out of the gate, pressing on beyond that I get a simple and poor tutorial that barely explains anything but the most simplest of things. Past that I am basically cut loose into the game to attempt to figure out the rest, no hand holding can be nice but in a complex game such as an mmo this can be devastating for a new player. If I am really curious I might look at the cash shop and, oh wait, you have race options locked behind .1% chances and 40 dollar mounts.

PWE mind set: if I can't make some money, I'd rather not make any at all. If you only target the whales you will miss out on more money overall from customers willing to spend a moderate, reasonable amount of money on your game. Why target 1% when you could target so much more?

Speechless beyond this point.

latexrubber · February 2015

thehumancodex wrote: »

Ha. Yea. Well I am just telling you what they do. I don't believe retention is their concern. I agree with you man. It's a fun game. There are many fun things about it and I enjoyed playing it over the last year or so. Sadly, it's become more of a chore and not much fun. I do think they actively and aggressively pursue big spending players. That is what I meant by hit fast, hit hard. The zen store prices for many things like coal wards, companions, blood rubies, profession boosters, are all very high. Much higher on other games I have played in the past. They did get it right with mounts. Where I wouldn't mind seeing mount costs go down a tad, being account bound was a wonderful idea. I wonder why they kept this the way they did but never applied that line of thought to any other zen store items. This is just my opinion, but I don't believe a game should be an either or of spend a lot of money, or spend years to progress in gear or be able to compete in PvP. I know some people will say that's not the case, but again it's just my opinion. I think Neverwinter's line of thought is "one game to rule them all." They're main target market are folks who will mainly play this game and only this game and rather than expand their gaming library they'll take that money and dump it into here. I understand that viewpoint, but you're going to burn out as a game project far sooner with that line of thought.

You seriously do not think mounts are a problem? 40 dollar account wide mounts. The price for a full game in many situations as just a mount. Example from another game with account wide amounts: world of warcraft 25 dollars for their paid mounts, account wide all characters. Within PWE we have STO with a single amazing ship at 20 dollars at very top top top prices.

thehumancodex · February 2015

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thehumancodex · February 2015

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latexrubber · February 2015

thehumancodex wrote: »

Well I did say they could lower the prices a tad. I just meant being account bound was a good idea. It is a shame that never translated to anything else in the zen shop.

I honestly think their hunt the whales attitude is killing them as a business. I GOTTA MAKE ALL THE MONEY, ANYTHING LESS THAN ALL? I WONT HAVE IT! - Perfectworld/Cryptic

arkvaladares · February 2015

Since I have been playing Neverwinter I have faced many problems that dismotivate me to continue playing. Many players take advantage of the option GM help in PvP, they use this in PvP to not get a lose and mainly to make their opponents lose points even with victory. It is ridiculous to imagine that you lose points if you win. This isn,t the worse part, I try to be just, but many times I face players that go over my will of play a legit match and they just kick me from the match, because they are the leaders of the party. They think they are gods and can dictate how I have to play.
I hope Perfectworld's staff is working to make Neverwinter a correct game where we can at least choose if we want to stay until the match ends.
This is just a alleviation of a player that is tired of waiting an attitude from who really can do something and change this scenario. Finally if you want to be in top of PvP, It isnt necessary you play well, you just need to use GM help and **** other players.
I am sorry for the inconven

latexrubber · February 2015

arkvaladares wrote: »

Since I have been playing Neverwinter I have faced many problems that dismotivate me to continue playing. Many players take advantage of the option GM help in PvP, they use this in PvP to not get a lose and mainly to make their opponents lose points even with victory. It is ridiculous to imagine that you lose points if you win. This isn,t the worse part, I try to be just, but many times I face players that go over my will of play a legit match and they just kick me from the match, because they are the leaders of the party. They think they are gods and can dictate how I have to play.
I hope Perfectworld's staff is working to make Neverwinter a correct game where we can at least choose if we want to stay until the match ends.
This is just a alleviation of a player that is tired of waiting an attitude from who really can do something and change this scenario. Finally if you want to be in top of PvP, It isnt necessary you play well, you just need to use GM help and **** other players.
I am sorry for the inconven

Ahaha wow. You can actually make a PVP loss just go away via an automated system? Amazing.

kvet · February 2015

Except from their Earnings Report (so you don't have to take that random article's word for it):

http://www.pwrd.com/en/pdf/14_11_en_final.pdf

“During the quarter, we continued to make progress in launching our games in various markets
through our overseas partners and subsidiaries. At the same time, we face fierce competition in
the global market. In view of U.S. subsidiary’s recent performance and near-term business
outlook that are below our expectations, we recognized acquisition-related impairments in this
quarter. However, we are still confident in the long-term prospects of our U.S. subsidiary given
its strong R&D and operational capabilities as well as promising pipeline. With our extensive
overseas network that covers more than 100 countries and regions around the world, we remain
committed to further expanding our overseas penetration and bolstering our global presence.”

“We are constantly on the lookout to identify new market trends as we endeavor to position
ourselves to capture growth opportunities in the global market. We believe our strategies will
bring long term value to our shareholders as we seek to create captivating entertainment
experiences for gamers worldwide.”

I should point out that "acquisition-related impairments" doesn't simply mean PWE US-based games but refers to assets (aka companies) PWE has acquired in the US, notably: Cryptic Studios.

I've been in the software/development industry for 20 years. I know what it's like to be working at an "owned" company when the parent company isn't satisfied and decides it's time to cut their losses. You can't squeeze water from a rock you guys. You're more likely to get me to pay more money overall if I felt I was really getting my money's worth.

I've never bought a mount except for the ones that come in the Packs. Never. I never will either because I have no need to buy one. If they were all, oh, 2000 zen cheaper? I probably would have bought the ALL by now. Same with the companions - instead I have purchased a grand total of two stones of allure and one black dragon ioun stone and I immediately regretted buying the second allure stone.... That's it. The stuff in the store is not worth the Zen to me. If it was half the price? So, add up all the Zen for all the companions and epic mounts (you shouldn't even bother marketing those, what a waste) and divide that by two. Now, subtract the current cost of two allure stones and the black dragon stone. That's the amount of lost revenue from JUST ME. Multiply that by, what, 250K? 1 Million? Something like that.

Like I said, I've been in this business for 20 years (I actually remember before there were pictures on the internet

) And if there's one thing I've learned in all that time its that: If your customers don't think your product is worth the money you're charging they will not buy it.

Doesn't take an economics degree and 20 years developing software to learn that.... but there it is.

eldarth · February 2015

latexrubber wrote: »

PWE mind set: if I can't make some money, I'd rather not make any at all. If you only target the whales you will miss out on more money overall from customers willing to spend a moderate, reasonable amount of money on your game. Why target 1% when you could target so much more?

Not quite.

PWE Mindset: That old game doesn't matter, we've just about milked it dry -- look at this "brand new game" we are releasing with all sorts of new Zen store digital itesm. Hurry! Act now! Buy some stuff to help you race to "end-game" as fast as possible! ...and you'll just love our "end-game" -- it's a whole "brand new game" we are releasing soon...

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

kurtb88 · February 2015

kvet wrote: »

the player-base hates the grinds required by Shar, DR, IWD and WoD/ToD and the RP system as a whole.

The only "grind" that seems insurmountable from the perspective of player who wants to play multiple characters is WoD. I leveled six characters through all zones and obtained all boons until I hit the WoD wall. I haven't even completed that on one character. I feel it will be an insurmountable task to grind more than one character through WoD.

imaginaerum1 · February 2015

The problem isn't WotC. If it was, we'd be seeing the same problem over at DDO, and not be seeing the same problem with Champions.
The problem is two-fold.
1) PWE's decisions are made based on short-term profit and not long-term longevity
2) PWE focuses on zen-generating content almost exclusively, at the expense of actual content that encourages long-term play.

Sure, Champions is still around, but it's been a ghost town for a while now, compared to how I was before PWE took over. When you can go to MI and the timed event is just sitting there, when in the past you had to be there right when it started, is a pretty good indicator. No new real content for ages plus an overwhelming focus on zen-store vehicles = abandoned game.
So, why are we surprised when they're already heading down the same path here?

Unfortunately, some of the decisions made fairly early on are hampering what development really needs to happen.

This is by far one of the easiest games to level to max in that I've ever encountered, so much so that, despite the endgame's incredibly grindy nature, a large number of people insist the game doesn't start until you reach level 60.
There's a lot of stuff built into the game to do at the lower levels. For instance, zone contests and finding and opening those out-of-the-way chests. Nobody does those. In the time it takes you to gather mushrooms, you could have gained two levels. Those chests? Filled with what, rank 2 enchants? Nobody wants those. Why? Because it is too easy and too fast to get higher levels and better stuff.

If PWE wants longevity for Neverwinter, they need to stop the power escalation, and stop it now. Too many people are outpowering every bit of content that PWE have provided for the PvE side of the game, and it's about to get worse. Meanwhile, the gap between paying and non-paying PvP players continues to widen. As a result, yes, they are going to lose both PvE and PvP players, as they get bored and/or frustrated.

PWE needs to stop, take a step back, and ask themselves, what will give Neverwinter true longevity?

It won't come from the PvP side. Eventually, other games are going to come out that are more attractive to PvP players, and they'll move on. True longevity is going to come from the PvE side, but ONLY if they add enough content to make PvE anything other than a mad dash through the levels to reach the grindfests. This could be done, and done well, by prioritizing Foundry, weeding out all of the junk quests, giving a viable reward system, and really allowing authors to develop the world. To make the PvP side happy, and have some chance at long-term pvp retention, allow the creation of PvP maps in Foundry, giving the author a choice from a list of available pvp types for that map (domination, open world, 1 on 1, castle defense, etc).

Faerun is huge. Really freaking huge. Give people the tools to make it (starting with WORLD map available in Foundry so you can make something located other than the northern Sword Coast). Give people the rewards to play it. Heck, do it right and you don't even NEED to add any more new grindfests. Do it right, and this game can be a haven for PvE fans, D&D fans, and storytellers for YEARS to come. Look at how many modders there are making stuff for Skyrim. That's not even a multiplayer game (although there have been some mod attempts).

The thing is, this would require a dramatic shift in the game. So the question really is, how serious are they about longevity?

henry404 · February 2015

It's not a democracy, it's a business. The devs are not obliged to listen to any of our opinions or requests. They are driven by a whole host of other influences.

I have no idea what the average player "churn" is, how many players leave and how many new players arrive. I do know that some players have been declaring the death of the game since Mod 1, and yet we are still here. I suspect the silent majority are mostly happy with the game.

As for PWE/Cryptic business stuff, games companies merge/split/morph all the time. One day the game will end but not just yet, methinks.

But remember, it's not a democracy, and nor should it be. We choose to use the product or not.

zebular · February 2015

Just like to point out that Neverwinter was never mentioned in relation to loss of revenue. All of PWE's games, which are many, are North American games as PWE is the North American Subsidiary of Perfect World Beijing. When it said, "PWE's North American Operations", it was a whole statement of business, denoting the region PWE operates in. It was not pointing to any specific game, for all their games are "NA Games." The revenue loss may have not been from any one game in particular, as in the same coin, NW could be bringing increasing revenue while other games are bringing that whole figure down.

thehumancodex · February 2015

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Suggestion for Cryptic

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