Not withstanding the 'obviously OP' stuff, as well as the broken bugs and exploits thereof, if we assume a 'normal state of things' such as; (1) no more abnormal AP gain rates and daily spamming for ALL classes, (2) daze durations fixed to respect CC resistances and deflect, (3) TR deflect severity effecting the CC durations to a lesser extent, (4) broken op Shocking Execution nerfed again, (5) broken Shadow of Demise double proc bug fixed (as well as the same line of double proc bug on HR Trapper roots). (6) one-shot tactics nerfed, (7) piercing damage toned down... etc etc..
In this case the class that's still better suited to take on the TRs are HRs.
(1) high resilience through deflect chance on par with average TRs
(2) more efficient self-sustenance through Wilds Med and regen
(3) choice of self buffs from self-heals to damage resist + DoT dropper self-buff that stops bleeds/DoTs..
(4) 10sec interval repetition of dazes
(5) root that cannot be dodged with high-damage (even if assuming the double proc bug is fixed)
(6) a fast activating, wide-angle AoE melee attack that doesn't require targeting, and still hits with high damage
(7) gap-closer, gap-opener
(8) faster movement speed than the TR, making melee combos/chains more difficult
(9) stealth of their own
(10) persistent/long duration DoTs which inflict severe pressure on stealth
...everything of HRs reek of anti-TR and frankly, if the TRs were not buffed so much in mod5, people would be still complaining about HRs since nothing fundamental has changed for them from their own "OP era" of mod3.
Currently, with some poorly designed OP features and bug exploits most TR builds have an upperhand against HRs. If such were toned down/nerfed, my guess is that a well-built HR would be at least on par with TRs.
what are you talking about here ?
nothing you've said work against a TR who will always got the first jump on you then daze you and finish you with a duelist , and if you are Lucky enough and you survive with 5% hp and want to atack back , well the Tr will just vanish again while drilling you with bloodpath , no Healing no gap opener nor gap whatever will work against an invisible then imune class .
And you talk about the poor self Healing from wild medecine and piercing feats which are a combat feats while talking about trapper ??LOLLL
Oh come on you must have no clue about HRs encounters , but you are saying he's the TR encounter !
As a HR, I'd have to say the dps dc's take on the rogues much better. I'm trapper build..was combat but that wild's medicine does very little for HR's in pvp now. Still works for PVE though.
As a HR, I'd have to say the dps dc's take on the rogues much better. I'm trapper build..was combat but that wild's medicine does very little for HR's in pvp now. Still works for PVE though.
everyone was combat , they've fixed the piercing damage calculation and then it has appeared that it's not enough with his melee encounters little damage !
nerfed the wild medecince and... RIP combat HR .
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lonewolfmk1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 137Arc User
edited February 2015
All the following advice only works when fighting executioner TRs, as this is the TR class i have the most experience in.
As i play an executioner TR in pvp (and a GF, both with over 20k GS), i can honestly say, a good HR can easily kill any executioner TR. Use Fox cunning to survive that first lashing blade (if the TR decides to throw some knifes at you first, then you know its there, and you can keep your distance until it runs out of stealth), after that the TR loses a lot of its damage potential, and you can simply pick him apart. There will be windows for you to attack if you keep the pressure on. Rooting him once, for example, equals pretty much a dead TR. HRs are the class i fear most as TR, many people dont realize it, but they are still just as strong as they always where, it just needs quite some skill to play one well.
GWFs stand not much of a chance i fear, even the really good ones will die pretty fast, if a good TR dosent mess up and eats a frontline surge or a similar cc power.
DCs are actually quite tough. If they have the staying power to survive that first hit, the TR will be very hard pressed to dish out enough dps to kill the DC. If the DC is following the offensive path, its dots will eventually kill the TR.
Warlocks are usually toast, sad but true.
CWs are also tough opponents, but only if they slot shield. With shield on they can easily survive that first hit, after that it will be a hard struggle (if we suppose similar gear and skill).
GFs are the class i have most experience with, since i have been playing one since the start of the game. If build properly (high HP, tencetity, defense, deflection, regen) they can tank any one, and often, any two TRs, but will very rarely really be able to kill one. Use iron warrior to keep your guard meter up, bull charge to open up a good window to use iron warrior and you should be fine. Keep always moving at the edge of the flag, shield facing inward, make it as hard as posible for the TR to get behind you. With your shield you can block pretty much all dazes the TR can throw at you, even smoke bombs, and the HP you lose should be replenished by your regen. What also really helps, if the TR actually dazes you, and you have a feeling that it has a shocking execution ready, use Oghmars Token of free movement (actually a very good artefact for any defensive build tank). It can really save your behind.
Lash Blade is silly. My suggestion is to use ranged combat. If you approached GF with Duelist Flurish most like he will break you kneecap. But versus TR he's just a big health bar, so you need to wear him down. Use Cloud of Steel and try to move behind him. You may try to roll "thought" him to reach his back fast. In this case do a roll diagonally from his side, which will force hem to change facing, and then sidestep to reach his back. Or use Deft Strike. Also you may try to use Impact Shot, Path of Blades or Wicked Reminder.
Anyway it's just a question of time. Personally, I usually annoy GF, so someone comes to help him with me, and then I hold them both on a pnode, while my team-mates has a space to capture and hold other nodes.
lol, seems kind of logical, that's what I do with warlock combined with run as hell maneuver, whereas with my gwf I'm forced to execute the run like hell maneuver even before the harassment. Which is still better than facing a tr, since they can also catch you as well as be immune to death.
I also find it funny that tr players are confused when somebody doesn't get oneshot by them
This tank didn't die when I used a single encounter power on him, I call hacks!
oh yeah advice.
Well my main is a gwf which isn't a sentinel and is under 20k gs(that is he's a bit over 16k) and I really question the benevolence of some advice like don't attack them while in indomitable? when else can you attack them- never. my advice is pay attention to where they might be and try to cc them if it's a team fight(won't work 90% of the time, since you know, unbalanced., but worth a try) if alone then don't fight.
either leave the node in hopes they will follow and not take it or evade the smoke bomb,take a few hits go indomitable and try to dash out damage, maybe a warlock will come a long and one shoot him or something.(they can evade that too)
I'm going to get slapped around for saying this but- I went from playing tr to playing sw for the challenge and am finding tr easier to beat as an sw. In fact, I don't get the rage at all. As my sw gets close to 60, trs are getting easier to beat, not harder. Even 1v1. Often even 2 vs me. It is a matter of killing it quickly, and there is no itc'ing out of a prone. Infernal spheres seek out stealthed tr's, dreadtheft follows them through stealth basically pointing to where they are at and the soul puppet alerts to them every time. Even without a real dodge mechanic, it is not impossible to simply make them miss on lashing blade. Daze tr's are more difficult but still it is a matter of bursting them down quick.
You beat trs by by being incredibly aggressive towards them. You see one running and harrowstorm pop him into the air, hit him while he is ragdolling, and finish him with a killing flame. See the tr now and suddenly he is gone? TURN AROUND, because odds are he is behind you. And this from the worst pvp class of all.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I'm going to get slapped around for saying this but- I went from playing tr to playing sw for the challenge and am finding tr easier to beat as an sw. In fact, I don't get the rage at all. As my sw gets close to 60, trs are getting easier to beat, not harder. Even 1v1. Often even 2 vs me. It is a matter of killing it quickly, and there is no itc'ing out of a prone. Infernal spheres seek out stealthed tr's, dreadtheft follows them through stealth basically pointing to where they are at and the soul puppet alerts to them every time. Even without a real dodge mechanic, it is not impossible to simply make them miss on lashing blade. Daze tr's are more difficult but still it is a matter of bursting them down quick.
You beat trs by by being incredibly aggressive towards them. You see one running and harrowstorm pop him into the air, hit him while he is ragdolling, and finish him with a killing flame. See the tr now and suddenly he is gone? TURN AROUND, because odds are he is behind you. And this from the worst pvp class of all.
(clap) you killed me like this before XD
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
I'm going to get slapped around for saying this but- I went from playing tr to playing sw for the challenge and am finding tr easier to beat as an sw. In fact, I don't get the rage at all. As my sw gets close to 60, trs are getting easier to beat, not harder. Even 1v1. Often even 2 vs me. It is a matter of killing it quickly, and there is no itc'ing out of a prone. Infernal spheres seek out stealthed tr's, dreadtheft follows them through stealth basically pointing to where they are at and the soul puppet alerts to them every time. Even without a real dodge mechanic, it is not impossible to simply make them miss on lashing blade. Daze tr's are more difficult but still it is a matter of bursting them down quick.
You beat trs by by being incredibly aggressive towards them. You see one running and harrowstorm pop him into the air, hit him while he is ragdolling, and finish him with a killing flame. See the tr now and suddenly he is gone? TURN AROUND, because odds are he is behind you. And this from the worst pvp class of all.
It's interesting that you've also noted what I've basically suggested some time ago, to buff the SWs more in PvP as an anti-TR and anti-DC class. I've also mentioned the possibilities of SWs becoming a direct counter to the TRs in that they already have some really good powers which, from the perspective of the TR, is really annoying to face.
Like said they have auto-stealth tracking attacks with a million tiny lightballs, a prone which is difficult for the TR to counter since when it is going activate solely depends on the wielder, and the manual tracking, dark beam of doom is gawdfully irritating for a TR. All of their major attacks being DoT is also a big irritation for the TR since whenever a SW is around, your stealth is always shortened, and therefore many MIs, for example, would need to slot Tenacious Concealment and give up one of their more useful direct-combat class features.
Of course, with all of these, the SW is still rarely a match for a TR due to being generally too frail. In that case, I say keep it frail, but in turn, increase its efficiency as a anti-TR class which would make it hell for any TR. I would actually suggest to give the SWs a specialized, one-of-a-kind debuff that directly targets deflection chance and stamina gain, and does something like "-15% deflection chance, -15% stamina regen".
So, in every match, any TR will seek to kill a SW first, but then if that is so, then the SW knows who their TR is coming after, so does everyone else, and it makes protecting the SW that much easier. The longer the SW survives through the help of teammates, the more inert the TRs become... and this would be a real start for 'cooperative teamplay' in PvP. If this happens, basically a trio of SW-DC-GF would be nigh impregnable for TRs -- once TR bugs and OP 10shot stuff have been balanced out and nerfed.
...heck, if the SW becomes something like that, I think I'd make myself a SW as it would help the team more than anything else.
It's interesting that you've also noted what I've basically suggested some time ago, to buff the SWs more in PvP as an anti-TR and anti-DC class. I've also mentioned the possibilities of SWs becoming a direct counter to the TRs in that they already have some really good powers which, from the perspective of the TR, is really annoying to face.
Like said they have auto-stealth tracking attacks with a million tiny lightballs, a prone which is difficult for the TR to counter since when it is going activate solely depends on the wielder, and the manual tracking, dark beam of doom is gawdfully irritating for a TR. All of their major attacks being DoT is also a big irritation for the TR since whenever a SW is around, your stealth is always shortened, and therefore many MIs, for example, would need to slot Tenacious Concealment and give up one of their more useful direct-combat class features.
Of course, with all of these, the SW is still rarely a match for a TR due to being generally too frail. In that case, I say keep it frail, but in turn, increase its efficiency as a anti-TR class which would make it hell for any TR. I would actually suggest to give the SWs a specialized, one-of-a-kind debuff that directly targets deflection chance and stamina gain, and does something like "-15% deflection chance, -15% stamina regen".
So, in every match, any TR will seek to kill a SW first, but then if that is so, then the SW knows who their TR is coming after, so does everyone else, and it makes protecting the SW that much easier. The longer the SW survives through the help of teammates, the more inert the TRs become... and this would be a real start for 'cooperative teamplay' in PvP. If this happens, basically a trio of SW-DC-GF would be nigh impregnable for TRs -- once TR bugs and OP 10shot stuff have been balanced out and nerfed.
...heck, if the SW becomes something like that, I think I'd make myself a SW as it would help the team more than anything else.
I don't want to sound to haughty, probably a little less than I sounded in that post; it is my experience with the trs I am facing in the pvp bracket I am in now. If this thing runs at 16k gs in level 60 pvp like it does now, I'll be ecstatic. TR's are not easy to beat, are problematic, but not more so than caster classes (melee seem easy in pvp for sw). A good CW stacking chill with conduit on tab, hitting me with entangle and ice rays while I am dangling is probably the worst thing for me in pvp, along with a daze tr slotting deft strike.
But sw as anti tr is a sweet sweet idea. Poetic even lol. I want to see what mod6 offers before getting too happy. SW feats/powers which debuff defenses rather than offense would be nice.
You should make an SW anyways- the challenge is pretty steep but the reward for over coming it is extreme as well.
removing the class would be better tho, imagine a pvp without a TR............... oh the joys!
Don't need to remove them. Don't even need to take away their stealth. Bring back module 4 TRs and it will be fine. They are still the best backcappers.
Not withstanding the 'obviously OP' stuff, as well as the broken bugs and exploits thereof, if we assume a 'normal state of things' such as; (1) no more abnormal AP gain rates and daily spamming for ALL classes, (2) daze durations fixed to respect CC resistances and deflect, (3) TR deflect severity effecting the CC durations to a lesser extent, (4) broken op Shocking Execution nerfed again, (5) broken Shadow of Demise double proc bug fixed (as well as the same line of double proc bug on HR Trapper roots). (6) one-shot tactics nerfed, (7) piercing damage toned down... etc etc..
In this case the class that's still better suited to take on the TRs are HRs.
(1) high resilience through deflect chance on par with average TRs
(2) more efficient self-sustenance through Wilds Med and regen
(3) choice of self buffs from self-heals to damage resist + DoT dropper self-buff that stops bleeds/DoTs..
(4) 10sec interval repetition of dazes
(5) root that cannot be dodged with high-damage (even if assuming the double proc bug is fixed)
(6) a fast activating, wide-angle AoE melee attack that doesn't require targeting, and still hits with high damage
(7) gap-closer, gap-opener
(8) faster movement speed than the TR, making melee combos/chains more difficult
(9) stealth of their own
(10) persistent/long duration DoTs which inflict severe pressure on stealth
...everything of HRs reek of anti-TR and frankly, if the TRs were not buffed so much in mod5, people would be still complaining about HRs since nothing fundamental has changed for them from their own "OP era" of mod3.
Currently, with some poorly designed OP features and bug exploits most TR builds have an upperhand against HRs. If such were toned down/nerfed, my guess is that a well-built HR would be at least on par with TRs.
you do realize it can be dodged easily right? for most players its the shift button. try it sometime. i main a hr and i dodge them all the time. i dodge them with my hr tr gwf sw cw and lastly my dc.
you do realize it can be dodged easily right? for most players its the shift button. try it sometime. i main a hr and i dodge them all the time. i dodge them with my hr tr gwf sw cw and lastly my dc.
It gives me problems, so what. It seems like when I am hit with that and icerays I freeze instantly and the constant rooting is what kills me. More so than anything else in the cw arsenal.
you do realize it can be dodged easily right? for most players its the shift button. try it sometime. i main a hr and i dodge them all the time. i dodge them with my hr tr gwf sw cw and lastly my dc.
I could say the same thing about LB and SE and every other stuff people complain about the TR.
Heck, you think something is OP? Just dodge it. Easy.
Quote Originally Posted by blackxxwolf3 View Post
you do realize it can be dodged easily right? for most players its the shift button. try it sometime. i main a hr and i dodge them all the time. i dodge them with my hr tr gwf sw cw and lastly my dc.
I could say the same thing about LB and SE and every other stuff people complain about the TR.
Heck, you think something is OP? Just dodge it. Easy.
You really are a sunshine boy gwf gf sw -dodge mmm anything else ???
sure thats what i meant, if i "dodge" with my Walock it sometimes happens, that i get oneshottet 20 feet away from the TR who casted SE at me, once proned at same time it happend that i died 20feet away 10 feet high, that is no dodge ability
Comments
what are you talking about here ?
nothing you've said work against a TR who will always got the first jump on you then daze you and finish you with a duelist , and if you are Lucky enough and you survive with 5% hp and want to atack back , well the Tr will just vanish again while drilling you with bloodpath , no Healing no gap opener nor gap whatever will work against an invisible then imune class .
And you talk about the poor self Healing from wild medecine and piercing feats which are a combat feats while talking about trapper ??LOLLL
Oh come on you must have no clue about HRs encounters , but you are saying he's the TR encounter
everyone was combat , they've fixed the piercing damage calculation and then it has appeared that it's not enough with his melee encounters little damage !
nerfed the wild medecince and... RIP combat HR .
As i play an executioner TR in pvp (and a GF, both with over 20k GS), i can honestly say, a good HR can easily kill any executioner TR. Use Fox cunning to survive that first lashing blade (if the TR decides to throw some knifes at you first, then you know its there, and you can keep your distance until it runs out of stealth), after that the TR loses a lot of its damage potential, and you can simply pick him apart. There will be windows for you to attack if you keep the pressure on. Rooting him once, for example, equals pretty much a dead TR. HRs are the class i fear most as TR, many people dont realize it, but they are still just as strong as they always where, it just needs quite some skill to play one well.
GWFs stand not much of a chance i fear, even the really good ones will die pretty fast, if a good TR dosent mess up and eats a frontline surge or a similar cc power.
DCs are actually quite tough. If they have the staying power to survive that first hit, the TR will be very hard pressed to dish out enough dps to kill the DC. If the DC is following the offensive path, its dots will eventually kill the TR.
Warlocks are usually toast, sad but true.
CWs are also tough opponents, but only if they slot shield. With shield on they can easily survive that first hit, after that it will be a hard struggle (if we suppose similar gear and skill).
GFs are the class i have most experience with, since i have been playing one since the start of the game. If build properly (high HP, tencetity, defense, deflection, regen) they can tank any one, and often, any two TRs, but will very rarely really be able to kill one. Use iron warrior to keep your guard meter up, bull charge to open up a good window to use iron warrior and you should be fine. Keep always moving at the edge of the flag, shield facing inward, make it as hard as posible for the TR to get behind you. With your shield you can block pretty much all dazes the TR can throw at you, even smoke bombs, and the HP you lose should be replenished by your regen. What also really helps, if the TR actually dazes you, and you have a feeling that it has a shocking execution ready, use Oghmars Token of free movement (actually a very good artefact for any defensive build tank). It can really save your behind.
lol, seems kind of logical, that's what I do with warlock combined with run as hell maneuver, whereas with my gwf I'm forced to execute the run like hell maneuver even before the harassment. Which is still better than facing a tr, since they can also catch you as well as be immune to death.
I also find it funny that tr players are confused when somebody doesn't get oneshot by them
This tank didn't die when I used a single encounter power on him, I call hacks!
oh yeah advice.
Well my main is a gwf which isn't a sentinel and is under 20k gs(that is he's a bit over 16k) and I really question the benevolence of some advice like don't attack them while in indomitable? when else can you attack them- never. my advice is pay attention to where they might be and try to cc them if it's a team fight(won't work 90% of the time, since you know, unbalanced., but worth a try) if alone then don't fight.
either leave the node in hopes they will follow and not take it or evade the smoke bomb,take a few hits go indomitable and try to dash out damage, maybe a warlock will come a long and one shoot him or something.(they can evade that too)
You beat trs by by being incredibly aggressive towards them. You see one running and harrowstorm pop him into the air, hit him while he is ragdolling, and finish him with a killing flame. See the tr now and suddenly he is gone? TURN AROUND, because odds are he is behind you. And this from the worst pvp class of all.
(clap) you killed me like this before XD
It's interesting that you've also noted what I've basically suggested some time ago, to buff the SWs more in PvP as an anti-TR and anti-DC class. I've also mentioned the possibilities of SWs becoming a direct counter to the TRs in that they already have some really good powers which, from the perspective of the TR, is really annoying to face.
Like said they have auto-stealth tracking attacks with a million tiny lightballs, a prone which is difficult for the TR to counter since when it is going activate solely depends on the wielder, and the manual tracking, dark beam of doom is gawdfully irritating for a TR. All of their major attacks being DoT is also a big irritation for the TR since whenever a SW is around, your stealth is always shortened, and therefore many MIs, for example, would need to slot Tenacious Concealment and give up one of their more useful direct-combat class features.
Of course, with all of these, the SW is still rarely a match for a TR due to being generally too frail. In that case, I say keep it frail, but in turn, increase its efficiency as a anti-TR class which would make it hell for any TR. I would actually suggest to give the SWs a specialized, one-of-a-kind debuff that directly targets deflection chance and stamina gain, and does something like "-15% deflection chance, -15% stamina regen".
So, in every match, any TR will seek to kill a SW first, but then if that is so, then the SW knows who their TR is coming after, so does everyone else, and it makes protecting the SW that much easier. The longer the SW survives through the help of teammates, the more inert the TRs become... and this would be a real start for 'cooperative teamplay' in PvP. If this happens, basically a trio of SW-DC-GF would be nigh impregnable for TRs -- once TR bugs and OP 10shot stuff have been balanced out and nerfed.
...heck, if the SW becomes something like that, I think I'd make myself a SW as it would help the team more than anything else.
I don't want to sound to haughty, probably a little less than I sounded in that post; it is my experience with the trs I am facing in the pvp bracket I am in now. If this thing runs at 16k gs in level 60 pvp like it does now, I'll be ecstatic. TR's are not easy to beat, are problematic, but not more so than caster classes (melee seem easy in pvp for sw). A good CW stacking chill with conduit on tab, hitting me with entangle and ice rays while I am dangling is probably the worst thing for me in pvp, along with a daze tr slotting deft strike.
But sw as anti tr is a sweet sweet idea. Poetic even lol. I want to see what mod6 offers before getting too happy. SW feats/powers which debuff defenses rather than offense would be nice.
You should make an SW anyways- the challenge is pretty steep but the reward for over coming it is extreme as well.
Don't need to remove them. Don't even need to take away their stealth. Bring back module 4 TRs and it will be fine. They are still the best backcappers.
Good joke d(^.^)b. Show me top CW players with CoI on tab
LOL you must be really good.
CoI on tab.
Just lmao.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
One can be good without being a top player. Personally on my cw I prefer to keep shield on tab in pvp, but that is what works for me.
It gives me problems, so what. It seems like when I am hit with that and icerays I freeze instantly and the constant rooting is what kills me. More so than anything else in the cw arsenal.
I could say the same thing about LB and SE and every other stuff people complain about the TR.
Heck, you think something is OP? Just dodge it. Easy.
You really are a sunshine boy gwf gf sw -dodge mmm anything else ???
*shrug* Don't play a gwf if you're gonna whine about it? Just a wild guess.
gwf and sw don't have dodge...
Beats being dyslexic and hellbent over a game.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
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