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The meaning of rolling greed
quotable
Member Posts: 29 Arc User
I just did a dungeon run (Dread Vault, non-epic, through the queue) in which I got kicked for rolling greed on everything. Apparently one of the other players in the group was very mad about this, and had a friend who was also in the group, so they were able to vote-kick me. This just resulted in me rejoining the queue and immediately getting put back into the same group, and having to run back from a campfire to catch up and finish the run. And I did finish the run with the same party that I started it with.
After the run was over, he tried to explain to me that rolling "greed" means that you need the item for whatever reason, but just can't equip it on your current class. So me rolling greed on everything basically amounted to trying to unfairly hoard all of the loot for myself, and that other groups would kick me for rolling greed, too. Again, that's rolling greed, not need--even on items that I could have rolled need on and that other people did roll need on. I only rolled need twice in the run, both on items that most of the group rolled need on, and I won neither item. Two of the items that I won by greed rolls ended up being upgrades for me (actually three items, but two for the same slot, so only real two upgrades), just because a 60 green sometimes is an upgrade over pegasus seal gear.
So my question is, is he just nuts and happened to have a friend in the group who was also nuts and therefore could vote-kick? Or is rolling greed on everything frowned upon for reasons that are not obvious to me?
Let me back up and explain what I thought the meaning of the need/greed system is. It originated in MMORPGs a long time ago. Or possibly before that in MUDs or some such, but I didn't play online games much before 1999, so I wouldn't know. The idea is, an item drops for a group, but only one player in the group can get the item. The goal is to get that item to the player who needs it most, or distribute it randomly to players if no one really does need it.
So the way that the need/greed system worked is that you could roll need on items that you would equip on your current character because they're an upgrade for you. That's the highest priority use for an item. If you'd like an item so that you can vendor it or pass it to another character or something like that, you could roll greed, and if no one called need, there would be a greed roll to see who got the item. If you didn't want the item at all for whatever reason, you could pass and would not be part of the greed roll. Typically if everyone passed, the item just stayed on the ground and no one got it, because no one wanted it.
In many games, people would get upset that someone was calling need on everything. If a hunter ranger item drops and there's a hunter ranger in the group who could use it and it would be an upgrade, you don't want a control wizard to call need and potentially win the roll over the hunter ranger so that he can vendor the item or whatever. But it was generally acceptable to roll greed on anything and everything for any reason you like or no reason at all. After all, if the control wizard were just going to vendor an item he couldn't use, but a hunter ranger wanted to equip it, the latter could roll need and get the item and the control wizard rolling greed would be no different from a pass when there was a need roll.
What Neverwinter did to restrict such ninja looting is to say that, if the server can trivially tell that you don't need an item--because your current class can't even equip it--then you're not allowed to roll need. Don't rely on social pressure or vote-kicking for that, but disable the need button entirely for that roll. You can still roll greed, of course. So in the above scenario where the hunter ranger is the only class that can equip an item, he's also the only one who can roll need. If he thinks it's an upgrade, he can roll need and get the item. And if he doesn't think it's an upgrade and rolls greed, then so what if he gets outrolled in the greed roll by a control wizard?
Or at least that's been the basic meaning of need/greed in many other games I've played. Does Neverwinter use the same terms to mean something totally different, so that "greed" is socially interpreted the way that "need" would be in other games? Or was the person who got upset at me merely nuts, because there are crazy people on the Internet?
After the run was over, he tried to explain to me that rolling "greed" means that you need the item for whatever reason, but just can't equip it on your current class. So me rolling greed on everything basically amounted to trying to unfairly hoard all of the loot for myself, and that other groups would kick me for rolling greed, too. Again, that's rolling greed, not need--even on items that I could have rolled need on and that other people did roll need on. I only rolled need twice in the run, both on items that most of the group rolled need on, and I won neither item. Two of the items that I won by greed rolls ended up being upgrades for me (actually three items, but two for the same slot, so only real two upgrades), just because a 60 green sometimes is an upgrade over pegasus seal gear.
So my question is, is he just nuts and happened to have a friend in the group who was also nuts and therefore could vote-kick? Or is rolling greed on everything frowned upon for reasons that are not obvious to me?
Let me back up and explain what I thought the meaning of the need/greed system is. It originated in MMORPGs a long time ago. Or possibly before that in MUDs or some such, but I didn't play online games much before 1999, so I wouldn't know. The idea is, an item drops for a group, but only one player in the group can get the item. The goal is to get that item to the player who needs it most, or distribute it randomly to players if no one really does need it.
So the way that the need/greed system worked is that you could roll need on items that you would equip on your current character because they're an upgrade for you. That's the highest priority use for an item. If you'd like an item so that you can vendor it or pass it to another character or something like that, you could roll greed, and if no one called need, there would be a greed roll to see who got the item. If you didn't want the item at all for whatever reason, you could pass and would not be part of the greed roll. Typically if everyone passed, the item just stayed on the ground and no one got it, because no one wanted it.
In many games, people would get upset that someone was calling need on everything. If a hunter ranger item drops and there's a hunter ranger in the group who could use it and it would be an upgrade, you don't want a control wizard to call need and potentially win the roll over the hunter ranger so that he can vendor the item or whatever. But it was generally acceptable to roll greed on anything and everything for any reason you like or no reason at all. After all, if the control wizard were just going to vendor an item he couldn't use, but a hunter ranger wanted to equip it, the latter could roll need and get the item and the control wizard rolling greed would be no different from a pass when there was a need roll.
What Neverwinter did to restrict such ninja looting is to say that, if the server can trivially tell that you don't need an item--because your current class can't even equip it--then you're not allowed to roll need. Don't rely on social pressure or vote-kicking for that, but disable the need button entirely for that roll. You can still roll greed, of course. So in the above scenario where the hunter ranger is the only class that can equip an item, he's also the only one who can roll need. If he thinks it's an upgrade, he can roll need and get the item. And if he doesn't think it's an upgrade and rolls greed, then so what if he gets outrolled in the greed roll by a control wizard?
Or at least that's been the basic meaning of need/greed in many other games I've played. Does Neverwinter use the same terms to mean something totally different, so that "greed" is socially interpreted the way that "need" would be in other games? Or was the person who got upset at me merely nuts, because there are crazy people on the Internet?
Quaternion from the previous forum
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In terms of mechanics, greed actually takes a back seat to need. If ANYONE rolls need, greed becomes a pass and wont even be counted. The need roller will always beat the greed roller. So there is absolutely nothing offensive AT ALL about greeding on anything and everything. Because if someone actually wanted to be greedy and hoard stuff they can simply usurp your roll by choosing need.
Needing on everything, especially if you don't need it, is actually the more greedy and less accepted method. And will generally get you kicked out of normal groups. What you experienced was just a bit of backwards insanity.
Now, to answer on your main question, why in the world they kicked me... it's simple, because he/she wanted that (whatever) item you just "greed" and didn't want to lose (or lost) the fight. This is the case where a player disrespect other players and being a D-bag. I really hate that type of people. they just need to grow up and accept the reality. Normal people wouldn't kick you just because you rolled a greed. It's just insane and they need to get a life.
Sorry for saying something like "get a life", but it's true. Who would do that and actually kick. Only d-bags. I feel sorry for you Quotable.. I can only say, good luck on your next run.
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A few notes on the topic though where it doesn't work as you've assumed:
Generally people expect you to roll "greed" on epic (purple) items. Essentially these are too valuable to let someone take it just because they're the right class. Even if it wasn't explicitly discussed some people will kick you for rolling "need" on these. Notable exceptions are greater marks and the ___ of the Shore items in Shores of Tauren (rings and neck), which brings up:
Things like marks and enchantments that anyone can roll "need" on generally will get "need"ed by everyone. Rings and belts are a bit of a grey area on this one. Sometimes people will need them, sometimes they won't. If they're blue they're not generally worth arguing about.
I generally roll "greed" on reaction. For the few things that I know people roll "need" on I wait and see what other people are rolling and roll "need" as well if that's what the party's doing. If in doubt, talk about it at the start of a dungeon.
2) He was trying to scam you out of an item you won fair and square, plus likely some other stuff "by way of apology". This scam will work sometimes on new players. I fell for it myself once, many years back, playing Ultima Online on Dial-Up. And yes, my PC DID run on Whale Oil
3) There was a previous agreement between all the other members of the Run and no one told you about it (maybe you arrived a little behind the rest and they hashed out a plan while waiting?). Either way, it was their responsibility to tell you about it and give you the option of abiding by it, convincing the rest of the group to do things your way, or leaving, no hard feelings.
4) You walked into a Guild Run and they were all abiding by longstanding Guild Rules. They were SO used to these rules being enforced that they never even considered that anyone else could want to do things differently. Again, it was THEIR responsibility to explain any House Rules to non-Guldies that ended up joining the Run if they lost a regular and to give you the option to go with the rules or leave with no hard feelings.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
People will in party try to get you to greed purples. They will say "Greed only " party. When you greed they are happy. They do this becasue this game is wierd and wont let you need on an item that you cant equipt. you normally get kickedfrom parties for needing on purples. So in your mind you probably thought he booted you for pushing greed. But he probably claimed that you pushed need on an boss drop. OVER ALL.. Dont bite the greed scam. unless you are with poeple you know. These poeple will need on purples and are willing to take the risk to get booted from the dungeon.
Before I played Neverwinter I never got why so many MMO gamers on sub games absolutely despised F2P game communities, but after playing this game for sometime I totally get it.
Of course it's made worse by how the Devs promote this behavior with their designs, ranging from all the BoE purples to the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in Gauntlgrym where only the person getting in the killing blow gets credit for participation (promoting "killstealing" in the process).
In more current terms - make sure to work things out with a team you joined, so that there is no confusion - be it need if you can, greed all, or what have you.
They could also add a BoE if greed, BoP if need mechanic, (with no resale or salvage value).
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
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That only works if you're dealing with honest people, Bio.
As someone mentioned above, some will push for rolling greed on epics, and then roll Need themselves at the very last second.
I would like the latter though. Although it may have to be unsalvagable in case of "Need" too, or they'll just need it to break it down for AD instead of selling it on the AH.
No.
A better solution would be to eliminate need rolls or setup a system wherein the run would be a "greed" run or a "need" run.
As mentioned on the thread that they made on the topic of a greed run; I'd be all for that too. Having a hard mechanic in place would help negate some of the ******baggery going around.
Also, implement something like many other MMOs have already done; once you've rolled on loot it doesn't matter whether you get kicked or not after the roll, you'll still receive the item if your roll would've won it. Or fix the system so that they can't kick people during loot rolls anymore.
Thanks for the replies everyone.
This was a non-epic dungeon, so the probability of getting any purples was pretty small to begin with, and no purples dropped at all in the entire run. The items that the guy was mad at me for rolling greed on were green. Not even blue, but green.
The guy who was mad at me for rolling greed passed on most things, though he did roll need sometimes. He was mad that I rolled greed on many items that everyone else passed on. But if he passed on an item (not even a greed roll), I don't think he was mad about not getting the loot.
The run was done through the queue and I was there right from the start. I was likely the first one into the dungeon, and was certainly the first to move after entering the dungeon. I have an SSD, so things load fast. There definitely wasn't any group discussion at the start of the dungeon that I missed.
But jorifice's point (4) is very possible, and one that I hadn't considered. That may have been the underlying issue and no one realized it at the time.
I'm inclined to chalk it up to occasionally people doing weird things. I hit level 60 recently, so I wanted to make sure that there wasn't any social loot consensus that I was missing. And it sounds like there isn't.
Quaternion from the previous forum
I've run into quite a few people in the game that have pretty limited knowledge of how a lot of things work.
Of course, this game doesn't have a real users manual so to speak, so . . .
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
yeah, that would be great. But there are alot that will just sit there and let you type to them and not respond while they play "tell" games wth therle friends on how funny your being when they are being ignorant and not responding. And also them that dont know english and dont understand which can be a bit frusterating. yet ,a better loot system would help somewhat. All though. So will a better guild system. So many people are without a guild and they use the zone chat for annoying the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of people to learn the game... what are guilds used for ? oh yeah. to support the guild master of that guild. JK LOL
I really like that idea. That would make it suicidal to roll need on items that you won't immediately use, as you'd get better utility by rolling greed and likely losing the roll. But it also strikes me as the sort of thing that, while easy to implement if you had it in mind before you started coding the game, could easily be hard to tack on to an existing and released game without considerable risk of breaking things.
Quaternion from the previous forum
I'm curious. I wonder if he was simply annoyed at you for looting what he considered trash. Some people seem to get annoyed by others picking up to much green stuff. The constant need to dismiss the pop-up can be irritable for some.
I'm reminded of how Heroic Encounters are handled. No chest, no shared loot. ctrl F and you get your participation reward. All dungeons should be this simple. IMO the only reason we should kick a person from party is if they are purposely being obnoxious, afk, or have disconnected and not relogged through most of the dungeon.
Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene
Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice
Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee
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This has my full support. I have been screaming for this since beta.
There is a system for this - the party leader can specify the loot threshold before the party enters a dungeon. Even if you que for a dungeon just specify it before you hit Shift-1 to join the party.
quotable - You seem to have gotten a nutter there "explaining" things to you. If you are unsure what the run is going to be just ask at the start of the run, or ask the person whom is LFG making a party ebfore you accept an invite to that party. That way you know if it's all need, epic greed, all greed, need or pass, or whatever arrangement.
Hopefully your dungeon experinces are all better than this one in future.
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Pass means you don't want it... at all.
Need means you Need it for your current character (usually because it's better equipment then you currently have in that location). Sometimes it means you need it for any character in your stable, though admittedly this interpretation is usually reserved for Guilds who know your alts and what your alts need, and your alts help them in dungeons/raids.. .etc.
Greed can mean various things based on group dynamics basically is... if it doesn't fit into the need category as defined by your group, but you don't want to simply pass on it, it's greed. This can be anything from vendor trash you want to sell, to items you need on your other character, but the second only if that's not concidered a need issue. Problem is because the group didn't decide ahead of time what NEED consisted of.... they assumed it was greed, and no one would vendor trash anything.
Either that or you were being trolled, and someone just wanted the gear you somehow greeded for an alt and was too embarressed to ask you for it. Generally if I greed something and I get it, but someone wants it for an alt I'll give it to them with the understanding that if the opportunity arises they'll return the favor
An alternative would be to stop the random drops of gear and have chests instead so that each party member gets a chance that way (With a system like DDO where you can pass your loot to someone else in the group). This takes care of the whole need/greed thing.
But yeah, I usually just Greed on stuff, even stuff I could need on so as not to offend anyone.
Award Tokens for Dungeons redeemable for Gear of the specific Rank that the Dungeon would normally drop.
Add a Vendor to PE with three different versions of each Gear piece.
One, the cheapest, will be BoP.
Then there will be a much more expensive piece that will be BoAoP (Bound to Account on Pickup).
Lastly, you will have a hugely expensive piece that is BoE.
Dungeon Delve Chests will award Double or Triple Tokens.
Keep a few Trash Purples in the loot tables for the Sub-Bosses, by all means, and have the standard Blue/Green junk.
But make the big, important stuff Token based to just cut out all the (@#*$^ drama already.
We as a Community have long since proven that we just cannot handle the awesome responsibility of a Need/Greed system.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
Not true. Just because everyone was on the same party doesn't mean they all automatically gave the same effort or produced the same results.
I get your point about everyone on the party having the same rewards, but if your argument is going to rely upon the notion that everyone contributed the same amount, then that is completely false.
Of course, it can't tell the difference between someone who sat on their butt or someone who tried really hard but doesn't have the equipment to pull off the damage output of the top-ranked person (for example).
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I think it's still a hold over from the genres roots in tabeltop RPGs where the DM would have the players find whatever bits of loot then let them decide amonst themselves who gets the +3 Flaming Sword of Awesomeness and who dosn't.
But as is what people contributed has no impact on who gets the drops anyhow, I could spend the whole boss fight dinking around only taking a token swipe at a monster every now and then and I stll have the same chance of being the one to get the reward as soemone that held the entire team together and pulled the group through almost single handedly.