Well I really see the solution to the GF as very simple.
Paladins now have features that are "auras" which I think they should cannibalize that IDEA to use on GFs.
The TAB function on GF should be replaced with an offensive and defensive "stance". This stance would be a perma uptime buff that would change the way the GF is played.
Offensive Stance - "Into the Fray" but toned back a bit. Basically gives an increase in damage, run speed, AP gain.
Defensive Stance - "Knights Valor" that splits damage with teammates within 50' and also I would suggest gives a DR boost to both the GF and the allies he protects.
You now have TWO encounter slots that can be replaced by something new - and for this you can easily cannibalize other powers. What about a "Daring Shout" or "Come and Get it" on the GF? What about a move that makes GFs immune to damage for 2 seconds like Paladins? Or even an insta-taunt?
Since ITF would be available for 100% uptime, Knights Challenge can be re-worked to act LIKE the old "tab" combined with "knights challenge"
So Knights Challenge would: Mark the target, also make the marked target deal less damage to anyone except the GF. This would also give a damage boost for the GF to this specific target.
Basically a better version of "Tab Mark" that we have now.
What this does is NOW you would be able to slot more encounters and have much better party utility function.
Paladins are going to COMPLETELY replace GFs. Not JUST because they have better abilities, but also because GFs frankly are not fun atm.
They are too slow (Offensive "stance" via ITF perma buff fixes this issue). They dont really do good damage (again perma ITF fixes this) or if they want to play tank mode, they swap to defensive stance (KV) for that party utility.
What GFs NEED now would just be:
1) A Hard Taunt (New Knights Challenge can offer this)
2) A "oh HAMSTER" button - like the OP(paladin) has now with its 2 sec immunity deal (yes I know they take 50% dmg and dish out 50% AFTER - but still)
Now the OP and GF would be on equal footing and this would make the GF class a MILLION times more fun to play.
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ryoshinetteMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 488Arc User
2) A "oh HAMSTER" button - like the OP(paladin) has now with its 2 sec immunity deal (yes I know they take 50% dmg and dish out 50% AFTER - but still)
You misunderstood this skill.
After this 2 secs, 50% of dmg goes back to mobs and 50% of remaining is unloaded at pally, so its not really "oh snap" button at all.
You misunderstood this skill.
After this 2 secs, 50% of dmg goes back to mobs and 50% of remaining is unloaded at pally, so its not really "oh snap" button at all.
I completely understand it. Yes it is because it allows a healer to heal, it also stops damage for 2 seconds then you only take half.
Allows time for a potion or even a life steal proc. Heck or even a ferocious reaction heal maybe (if xfered to GF)?
It also has great application in PVP as well.
Say you ARE at 3k HP left and then pop that ability. What if a TR shocking executes you (assuming it wont go through this but my guess is it will) AFTER the 2 seconds, you end up dying - which you would have anyways, but then the TR takes what, 15-20k damage and might die too?
In pvp scenario, sure you are right, but in pve, well, I don't really see it as safe ability as you make it seem. If there is a healer around, the hp will be topped likely anyway and only possibility where that would be needed as panic button is if healer died and you had 2 sec to pot.
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wowowowowoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited February 2015
The paly dmg absorb skill is 2sec a rank1 and 6sec at rank3 and maybe 8sec at rank4 !
In the stream the skill was showed as 2sec base duration and +2s per rank, with 4th rank as "unknow" .. so yeah, 6sec is sure.
Well there you go.... Seems pretty OP to me IMO for PVP.
Stick a Pally on a node and when you know encounters are coming, pop that sucker and immune for 6 seconds then spit back a ton of damage if you do hit them.
I mean if anything they should at LEAST change the GF artifact so it removes the "once per second" making THAT their "oh HAMSTER" button but thats not class specific so you could always get it on other classes.
The once per second thing ruins it for PVE and PVP. If it were pure 8 sec (or w.e) of 80% dmg that would be good.
With how much dazing and everything coming from rogues and hunter rangers in mod 6 we need something for cc break otherwise we are resurrected(mod 4) and then buried again(mod 6). With how common rogues and hunters will be with their near endless dazing combos we need something to combat that.
I would really enjoy some type of undead race at this point.
Main-Lothor Syralth Guardian Fighter
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ryoshinetteMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 488Arc User
edited February 2015
Steel defence is 5 second, well it works 3 seconds and triggers not every time. Anyway.
Any feedback from devs? Are we doomed or have a hope for our class?
Well I really see the solution to the GF as very simple.
Paladins now have features that are "auras" which I think they should cannibalize that IDEA to use on GFs.
The TAB function on GF should be replaced with an offensive and defensive "stance". This stance would be a perma uptime buff that would change the way the GF is played.
Offensive Stance - "Into the Fray" but toned back a bit. Basically gives an increase in damage, run speed, AP gain.
Defensive Stance - "Knights Valor" that splits damage with teammates within 50' and also I would suggest gives a DR boost to both the GF and the allies he protects.
You now have TWO encounter slots that can be replaced by something new - and for this you can easily cannibalize other powers. What about a "Daring Shout" or "Come and Get it" on the GF? What about a move that makes GFs immune to damage for 2 seconds like Paladins? Or even an insta-taunt?
Since ITF would be available for 100% uptime, Knights Challenge can be re-worked to act LIKE the old "tab" combined with "knights challenge"
So Knights Challenge would: Mark the target, also make the marked target deal less damage to anyone except the GF. This would also give a damage boost for the GF to this specific target.
Basically a better version of "Tab Mark" that we have now.
What this does is NOW you would be able to slot more encounters and have much better party utility function.
Paladins are going to COMPLETELY replace GFs. Not JUST because they have better abilities, but also because GFs frankly are not fun atm.
They are too slow (Offensive "stance" via ITF perma buff fixes this issue). They dont really do good damage (again perma ITF fixes this) or if they want to play tank mode, they swap to defensive stance (KV) for that party utility.
What GFs NEED now would just be:
1) A Hard Taunt (New Knights Challenge can offer this)
2) A "oh HAMSTER" button - like the OP(paladin) has now with its 2 sec immunity deal (yes I know they take 50% dmg and dish out 50% AFTER - but still)
Now the OP and GF would be on equal footing and this would make the GF class a MILLION times more fun to play.
Not everybody plays a meatshield. Leave my dps tree alone. Everytime i read your suggestions they are nerf requests to my damage. Ask for your tank tree to get buffs instead. GF tanks are so yesterday anyway, soon everybody is going to ditch radiants for dark in their defensive slots in order to maintain a better ls ratio and tanks will be stuck with their 'hp is everything' mentality and 3% ls... While everybody else will be conqueror due to the flat 10% crit increase along with the crit nerfs. I already know how to adapt to the new mechanics, it is not rocket science to be honest.
- We do have a hard taunt, it is called 'Mark' / 'enforced threat'.
- We already have an "oh HAMSTER" button, it is called - 'Villain's menace' combined with 'Steel defense'.
Please wake up, pal.
P.S. if you are having trouble with how to spec you GF, feel free to pm me. I did this for quite a few people already and they all were pretty happy and gave me a thousand thanks. I can build anything, from utility to burst dps, yes even tank specs.
- We already have an "oh HAMSTER" button, it is called - 'Villain's menace' combined with 'Steel defense'.
Are you kidding me?! With animation that long? Its not even a breaker and its a daily. Steel defense will work for 1 second after end of animation and u dont get immunity from the start. In additon steel defence is bugged again. I would suggest Fighters Recovery (short animation and heal without cc immunity)+Steel Defence, you will get most time with it. But like i said its bugged and theres a lot of powers that will damage you.
You want to sound like a pro but u dont.
Main : GF - Lord Kruk Steel and Magic
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ryoshinetteMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 488Arc User
edited February 2015
Fully agree with raven. No mention, u'll be stuned/controlled/pin down or dazed before villance animation starts.
All suggested changes in feats are just HAMSTER and spit in face of GF. Are our money, we spend on game, worst than others?
Ryoshin GF (4.2k) .Suicide Squad.
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wowowowowoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited February 2015
Since I play both GWF and GF, I have to point out the fact that GWF got 2 new encounters on top of the 2 new class features, GF? nah.
Feedback: Jagged Blades Let's compare two feats of GF and DC:
Jagged Blades - When you critically strike a foe they begin bleeding. This bleed lasts 15 seconds and deals 50/100/150/200/250% of your weapon damage over its duration. Max 250% of your weapon damage over 15 seconds.
Fire of the Gods - When you critically strike a foe they are set ablaze, taking 20/40/60/80/100% of your weapon damage every second for 15 seconds. This effect does not stack. Max 1500% of your weapon damage over 15 seconds!
Why DC's feat deals 6 times more damage than similar GF's feat? The difference is 600%! Not 6%, not even 60% - 600%!
One question: have you actually played on the preview with GF? With the new changes we actually get better than we are atm. New passive with the extra rank in all power that we get will help you with extra dps. It gives 4% dmg stack for every attack that you block, stacks 5 times. Thats a 20% dmg boost which you can combine with conqueror capstone so thats 45% in total if my math is right.
There are some other passives that benefit greatly from a extra level. Ferocious reaction? one min less CD and 7.5% more hp healing. Last but not least is my favorite: Guarded Assault. Thats a 20% dmg reflect on every cap, can palading match that? Can he block with 80% dmg reduction as GF do? All no, be proud of your class and make it work.
In case you think that guarded assault is caped on HP, GF has and will have the higest HP pool of everybody. Paladin has not that much hp. With the extra levels and the added HP in lvl 70 gear we will have plenty of option out there to make it work.
I do agree there are quite e few points we could use some upgrade but there are also a lot of good things about the new mod. Please stop doomsaying something thats just not true
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
One question: have you actually played on the preview with GF? With the new changes we actually get better than we are atm. New passive with the extra rank in all power that we get will help you with extra dps. It gives 4% dmg stack for every attack that you block, stacks 5 times. Thats a 20% dmg boost which you can combine with conqueror capstone so thats 45% in total if my math is right.
There are some other passives that benefit greatly from a extra level. Ferocious reaction? one min less CD and 7.5% more hp healing. Last but not least is my favorite: Guarded Assault. Thats a 20% dmg reflect on every cap, can palading match that? Can he block with 80% dmg reduction as GF do? All no, be proud of your class and make it work.
In case you think that guarded assault is caped on HP, GF has and will have the higest HP pool of everybody. Paladin has not that much hp. With the extra levels and the added HP in lvl 70 gear we will have plenty of option out there to make it work.
I do agree there are quite e few points we could use some upgrade but there are also a lot of good things about the new mod. Please stop doomsaying something thats just not true
Paladin have more HP then GF 1 con for OP = 5 % hp boost 1 con for GF = 4% hp boost.
Both of them have con as main stat .
The difference OP vs GF is GF are more faster present much more dynamic play style and do much more dps then OP.
The best example is HR melee vs the new TR rework .
Hr are tough but they cannot do dps .
And Tr have super dynamic play style and do lot-lot more dps .
But op is way more tough and have way more DR even more defensive build then sentinel GWF .
So i feel GF need much more dps & dynamic play style.
So lets focus on conq so GF can have a good role in pve. He must be the villain version of tank.
So lets give him bleed poison and dirty play style.
Feedback: Jagged Blades Let's compare two feats of GF and DC:
Jagged Blades - When you critically strike a foe they begin bleeding. This bleed lasts 15 seconds and deals 50/100/150/200/250% of your weapon damage over its duration. Max 250% of your weapon damage over 15 seconds.
Fire of the Gods - When you critically strike a foe they are set ablaze, taking 20/40/60/80/100% of your weapon damage every second for 15 seconds. This effect does not stack. Max 1500% of your weapon damage over 15 seconds!
Why DC's feat deals 6 times more damage than similar GF's feat? The difference is 600%! Not 6%, not even 60% - 600%!
I would say the DC feat is very likely way too OP and needs adjusting and especially considering that in PvP often you kill a DC and still die to this after.
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wowowowowoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited February 2015
Feat: Steadfast: Each point of Constitution now grants an additional .5/1/1.5/2/2.5% Maximum Hit Points.
So yeah, not that much HP. *explodes*
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lonewolfmk1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 137Arc User
edited February 2015
As far as i can see, i like the overall changes to the GF. But as others have stated before, the loss of regeneration, while no big deal in PVE, will really hurt the GF in PVP, probably more so than other classes.
What many people dont realize is, that a well build defensive/support GF is still capable to tank almost all classes (with the noteable exeption of a very good HR) for pretty much a whole pvp 1 vs 1, and depending on the opposing chars, often 2 vs one. Even when the odds are worse a good GF can hold out for some time. The everywhere feared TRs (which i play too btw.) are actually the class i am almost the least afraid of with my GF (only GFs and GWFs i am less afraid off), since they simply can not put out enough dps to take a well geared and played defensive GF out. But for all this to work you need high tenecity, deflection, defense, HP and last but not least, regeneration.
Regeneration is what keeps you in the fight and allows you to act independent from a cleric. Usually i contest mid with my GF and support my team with ItF and KV, but if things dont work out, i move to the opponents base and usually manage to tie up 2 players over a long period of time, if not for the whole game, depending on class and gear. Without regeneration working in a fight, this will no longer work anywhere as well. Sure, as long as there is a DC close, you are basically immortal, but you will no longer be able to act as independant as many other classes (TR can leave a fight anytime it wants, DC can heal itself up, as can the HR to a point (and leave combat), GWFs can try to run away, CWs can try to control an enemy to get away or heal via lifesteal (though this might become difficult too) Warlocks also might try to run away, though usually they are just screwed in pvp).
Thats why i appeal to the Devs, please rethink the planned change to regeneration or give the GF a suitable replacement.
I am not sure if there is really any competition between Guardian Fighters and Oathbound Paladins as both have their strengths and weaknesses.
The only thing I question up to now is the need for any Guardian Fighter to feat and slot a passive solely to get more Threat generation whereas all the other tanks get their Threat bonus mainly as a side effect.
Would some developer be so kind to elaborate this circumstance a bit, please?
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited February 2015
Well, I've been on the PTS today, after some respeccing (to get rank 4 powers) I did the Crab HE for the first time. I was level 61 with some new blue/green gear. I noticed there was a paladin around as well, boy I totally outtanked him, that giant crab was stuck on me the whole time!
Of course that's what I like to tell myself, but the paladin could have been healing specced for all I know. ='D.
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lonewolfmk1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 137Arc User
If by chance this comment was also directed at my direction, then please feel free to add some actual contend to your words.
I have played my GF since this game was released, using different styles to adapt to module changes. I have played him successfully in PVP (and PVE) when tanks where considered overpowered (at the beginning of Neverwinter) and when they where considered crappy (in the days when CWs, GWFs and later HRs ruled). The GF class recovered after its last overhaul quite a bit and id really like it to stay that way. So excuse me if i expect a bit more of you if you really want to have a discussion.
Sure not all is bad with the coming changes. Desperate survival in combination with the new protector feats will reduce the damage a GF takes to a certain degree, but what the GF will lose with the change to reg is staying power, pure and simple.
When the Class feature is supposed to activate there is no bonus to deflect and appears to cause stamina to drain faster by 30% roughly instead of recovering stamina 30% faster.
Main-Lothor Syralth Guardian Fighter
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited February 2015
Feedback Threat problems & avoiding future issues:
CW / HR / TR / GWF /DC dmg rise and rise to ridiculous lvl the have now x3 x4 more dmg then our tanks my consern is this : They rise even more and more what will be the new multipler look like? X 6 ?x 10 ?
Threat work like this this is just an example :
MY gf hit whit at-will in green junk gear 4-5000 at wills my enforced hit around 5-6000 dmg in green junk with 340 % threat .
= 17000 threat or 20400 this is non crit dmg (weak he can hold threat only if he use mark + at-will from block)
MY GWF sentinel hit around 90000-120000 intimidation + bonus 50 % more threat .= 135000 - 180000 threat (almost optimal but looks like the threat is not working on feat )
Now let see pally if they dont doo anything to her dps he will not lead the threat list cuz her at-wills hit with green junk around 2-300
and her encounters do 70-70 or the biggest is around 400-600 with 500% threat 1500 on at wills 350 - 3000 threat on encounters non crit. ( cannot hold agro only if he use hard taunt)
Also i try it out whit my friend he have both GF(super weak vs my GF)&GWF(much stonger then my GWF) i losed on both the agro i even lose the agro on my companion .
Just soo simple pally have zero dmg if you have zero dmg you cannot manage agro in long therm.
The biggest problem on devs side is they dont know or forget hou threat work or they dont know hou much real dmg have dps classes .
M5
(best)CW do 12-14 mill dps (best) GF conq do 4 mill dps but 4 mill /+ 300% threat can get the agro .
(Best) CW do 12-14 mill dps (best) Prot/tacti do 2 mill dps / + 300% threat he cant hold the agro in long therm if they dont hit they lose it immediately.
GF need much more dps then he have now at least x2 to cath up with the overpowered dps classes or the hole rework and the new paladin will be a big fail . Cuz if they cant hold the threat both paladin and gf ppl will be really really upset like in early beta.
In beta the real agro masters "tanks" was the DC and the CW and GF was a junk .
In istances will be super hard cuz w/o LS all ppl will die .
This problem have all tanks in NW and also off tanks somthing must be done.
Or another solution is to rise on all tanks dmg a little bit + give them much more threat multipler .
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited February 2015
Feedback another issue : PVP
So the new arp is a bit too owerpowered in pvp just think about it if somone use G.PF cut literally all defensive stat in half what does this do??? Lets say you have 16000 defens = 40 % dr mybe you can get another 40 from AC and feats then you have the cap 80% dr & ofc i talk about end game bis player.
But GPF will decrease your def stat by-7200 (45%)then you have only 22 % dr + your 40 % from feats and AC the problem is Arp cap will be 40% and vs any pve spec player can literally eleminate your capped DR from 100% to 17,6% this is 82.4 % arp and this is only the base.
And we talk about end game GF/pally/Sentinel GWF vs common geared player .
So my
Q: Defense will be worthless in mod 6?
Q: All GWF/GF/Pallys will be glass cannons w/o dps ?
PS: w/o any gear change in mod 6 with lvl 70 GWF i hit 50 % arp from attributes con + arp stat +GPF with my current stats i will have 92.4% ARP even aganst sent GWFs and they capped 80 % DR .
Comments
.Suicide Squad.
Paladins now have features that are "auras" which I think they should cannibalize that IDEA to use on GFs.
The TAB function on GF should be replaced with an offensive and defensive "stance". This stance would be a perma uptime buff that would change the way the GF is played.
Offensive Stance - "Into the Fray" but toned back a bit. Basically gives an increase in damage, run speed, AP gain.
Defensive Stance - "Knights Valor" that splits damage with teammates within 50' and also I would suggest gives a DR boost to both the GF and the allies he protects.
You now have TWO encounter slots that can be replaced by something new - and for this you can easily cannibalize other powers. What about a "Daring Shout" or "Come and Get it" on the GF? What about a move that makes GFs immune to damage for 2 seconds like Paladins? Or even an insta-taunt?
Since ITF would be available for 100% uptime, Knights Challenge can be re-worked to act LIKE the old "tab" combined with "knights challenge"
So Knights Challenge would: Mark the target, also make the marked target deal less damage to anyone except the GF. This would also give a damage boost for the GF to this specific target.
Basically a better version of "Tab Mark" that we have now.
What this does is NOW you would be able to slot more encounters and have much better party utility function.
Paladins are going to COMPLETELY replace GFs. Not JUST because they have better abilities, but also because GFs frankly are not fun atm.
They are too slow (Offensive "stance" via ITF perma buff fixes this issue). They dont really do good damage (again perma ITF fixes this) or if they want to play tank mode, they swap to defensive stance (KV) for that party utility.
What GFs NEED now would just be:
1) A Hard Taunt (New Knights Challenge can offer this)
2) A "oh HAMSTER" button - like the OP(paladin) has now with its 2 sec immunity deal (yes I know they take 50% dmg and dish out 50% AFTER - but still)
Now the OP and GF would be on equal footing and this would make the GF class a MILLION times more fun to play.
you rock mate. dev's?
.Suicide Squad.
You misunderstood this skill.
After this 2 secs, 50% of dmg goes back to mobs and 50% of remaining is unloaded at pally, so its not really "oh snap" button at all.
I completely understand it. Yes it is because it allows a healer to heal, it also stops damage for 2 seconds then you only take half.
Allows time for a potion or even a life steal proc. Heck or even a ferocious reaction heal maybe (if xfered to GF)?
It also has great application in PVP as well.
Say you ARE at 3k HP left and then pop that ability. What if a TR shocking executes you (assuming it wont go through this but my guess is it will) AFTER the 2 seconds, you end up dying - which you would have anyways, but then the TR takes what, 15-20k damage and might die too?
You know this forsure? If so. that 8 seconds or even 6 is REALLLLY OP
In the stream the skill was showed as 2sec base duration and +2s per rank, with 4th rank as "unknow" .. so yeah, 6sec is sure.
Well there you go.... Seems pretty OP to me IMO for PVP.
Stick a Pally on a node and when you know encounters are coming, pop that sucker and immune for 6 seconds then spit back a ton of damage if you do hit them.
The once per second thing ruins it for PVE and PVP. If it were pure 8 sec (or w.e) of 80% dmg that would be good.
I would really enjoy some type of undead race at this point.
Any feedback from devs? Are we doomed or have a hope for our class?
.Suicide Squad.
Not everybody plays a meatshield. Leave my dps tree alone. Everytime i read your suggestions they are nerf requests to my damage. Ask for your tank tree to get buffs instead. GF tanks are so yesterday anyway, soon everybody is going to ditch radiants for dark in their defensive slots in order to maintain a better ls ratio and tanks will be stuck with their 'hp is everything' mentality and 3% ls... While everybody else will be conqueror due to the flat 10% crit increase along with the crit nerfs. I already know how to adapt to the new mechanics, it is not rocket science to be honest.
- We do have a hard taunt, it is called 'Mark' / 'enforced threat'.
- We already have an "oh HAMSTER" button, it is called - 'Villain's menace' combined with 'Steel defense'.
Please wake up, pal.
P.S. if you are having trouble with how to spec you GF, feel free to pm me. I did this for quite a few people already and they all were pretty happy and gave me a thousand thanks. I can build anything, from utility to burst dps, yes even tank specs.
But you will have to do it like this, since you seem stuck with that old GF - mentality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuDZU-kSybE&t=2m30s
Are you kidding me?! With animation that long? Its not even a breaker and its a daily. Steel defense will work for 1 second after end of animation and u dont get immunity from the start. In additon steel defence is bugged again. I would suggest Fighters Recovery (short animation and heal without cc immunity)+Steel Defence, you will get most time with it. But like i said its bugged and theres a lot of powers that will damage you.
You want to sound like a pro but u dont.
Steel and Magic
All suggested changes in feats are just HAMSTER and spit in face of GF. Are our money, we spend on game, worst than others?
.Suicide Squad.
Let's compare two feats of GF and DC:
Jagged Blades - When you critically strike a foe they begin bleeding. This bleed lasts 15 seconds and deals 50/100/150/200/250% of your weapon damage over its duration.
Max 250% of your weapon damage over 15 seconds.
Fire of the Gods - When you critically strike a foe they are set ablaze, taking 20/40/60/80/100% of your weapon damage every second for 15 seconds. This effect does not stack.
Max 1500% of your weapon damage over 15 seconds!
Why DC's feat deals 6 times more damage than similar GF's feat? The difference is 600%! Not 6%, not even 60% - 600%!
Please, rework Jagged Blades, increase it's damage.
There are some other passives that benefit greatly from a extra level. Ferocious reaction? one min less CD and 7.5% more hp healing. Last but not least is my favorite: Guarded Assault. Thats a 20% dmg reflect on every cap, can palading match that? Can he block with 80% dmg reduction as GF do? All no, be proud of your class and make it work.
In case you think that guarded assault is caped on HP, GF has and will have the higest HP pool of everybody. Paladin has not that much hp. With the extra levels and the added HP in lvl 70 gear we will have plenty of option out there to make it work.
I do agree there are quite e few points we could use some upgrade but there are also a lot of good things about the new mod. Please stop doomsaying something thats just not true
Paladin have more HP then GF 1 con for OP = 5 % hp boost 1 con for GF = 4% hp boost.
Both of them have con as main stat .
The difference OP vs GF is GF are more faster present much more dynamic play style and do much more dps then OP.
The best example is HR melee vs the new TR rework .
Hr are tough but they cannot do dps .
And Tr have super dynamic play style and do lot-lot more dps .
But op is way more tough and have way more DR even more defensive build then sentinel GWF .
So i feel GF need much more dps & dynamic play style.
So lets focus on conq so GF can have a good role in pve. He must be the villain version of tank.
So lets give him bleed poison and dirty play style.
I would say the DC feat is very likely way too OP and needs adjusting and especially considering that in PvP often you kill a DC and still die to this after.
So yeah, not that much HP. *explodes*
What many people dont realize is, that a well build defensive/support GF is still capable to tank almost all classes (with the noteable exeption of a very good HR) for pretty much a whole pvp 1 vs 1, and depending on the opposing chars, often 2 vs one. Even when the odds are worse a good GF can hold out for some time. The everywhere feared TRs (which i play too btw.) are actually the class i am almost the least afraid of with my GF (only GFs and GWFs i am less afraid off), since they simply can not put out enough dps to take a well geared and played defensive GF out. But for all this to work you need high tenecity, deflection, defense, HP and last but not least, regeneration.
Regeneration is what keeps you in the fight and allows you to act independent from a cleric. Usually i contest mid with my GF and support my team with ItF and KV, but if things dont work out, i move to the opponents base and usually manage to tie up 2 players over a long period of time, if not for the whole game, depending on class and gear. Without regeneration working in a fight, this will no longer work anywhere as well. Sure, as long as there is a DC close, you are basically immortal, but you will no longer be able to act as independant as many other classes (TR can leave a fight anytime it wants, DC can heal itself up, as can the HR to a point (and leave combat), GWFs can try to run away, CWs can try to control an enemy to get away or heal via lifesteal (though this might become difficult too) Warlocks also might try to run away, though usually they are just screwed in pvp).
Thats why i appeal to the Devs, please rethink the planned change to regeneration or give the GF a suitable replacement.
I am not sure if there is really any competition between Guardian Fighters and Oathbound Paladins as both have their strengths and weaknesses.
The only thing I question up to now is the need for any Guardian Fighter to feat and slot a passive solely to get more Threat generation whereas all the other tanks get their Threat bonus mainly as a side effect.
Would some developer be so kind to elaborate this circumstance a bit, please?
Of course that's what I like to tell myself, but the paladin could have been healing specced for all I know. ='D.
If by chance this comment was also directed at my direction, then please feel free to add some actual contend to your words.
I have played my GF since this game was released, using different styles to adapt to module changes. I have played him successfully in PVP (and PVE) when tanks where considered overpowered (at the beginning of Neverwinter) and when they where considered crappy (in the days when CWs, GWFs and later HRs ruled). The GF class recovered after its last overhaul quite a bit and id really like it to stay that way. So excuse me if i expect a bit more of you if you really want to have a discussion.
Sure not all is bad with the coming changes. Desperate survival in combination with the new protector feats will reduce the damage a GF takes to a certain degree, but what the GF will lose with the change to reg is staying power, pure and simple.
When the Class feature is supposed to activate there is no bonus to deflect and appears to cause stamina to drain faster by 30% roughly instead of recovering stamina 30% faster.
CW / HR / TR / GWF /DC dmg rise and rise to ridiculous lvl the have now x3 x4 more dmg then our tanks my consern is this : They rise even more and more what will be the new multipler look like? X 6 ?x 10 ?
Threat work like this this is just an example :
MY gf hit whit at-will in green junk gear 4-5000 at wills my enforced hit around 5-6000 dmg in green junk with 340 % threat .
= 17000 threat or 20400 this is non crit dmg (weak he can hold threat only if he use mark + at-will from block)
MY GWF sentinel hit around 90000-120000 intimidation + bonus 50 % more threat .= 135000 - 180000 threat (almost optimal but looks like the threat is not working on feat )
Now let see pally if they dont doo anything to her dps he will not lead the threat list cuz her at-wills hit with green junk around 2-300
and her encounters do 70-70 or the biggest is around 400-600 with 500% threat 1500 on at wills 350 - 3000 threat on encounters non crit. ( cannot hold agro only if he use hard taunt)
Also i try it out whit my friend he have both GF(super weak vs my GF)&GWF(much stonger then my GWF) i losed on both the agro i even lose the agro on my companion .
Just soo simple pally have zero dmg if you have zero dmg you cannot manage agro in long therm.
The biggest problem on devs side is they dont know or forget hou threat work or they dont know hou much real dmg have dps classes .
M5
(best)CW do 12-14 mill dps (best) GF conq do 4 mill dps but 4 mill /+ 300% threat can get the agro .
(Best) CW do 12-14 mill dps (best) Prot/tacti do 2 mill dps / + 300% threat he cant hold the agro in long therm if they dont hit they lose it immediately.
GF need much more dps then he have now at least x2 to cath up with the overpowered dps classes or the hole rework and the new paladin will be a big fail . Cuz if they cant hold the threat both paladin and gf ppl will be really really upset like in early beta.
In beta the real agro masters "tanks" was the DC and the CW and GF was a junk .
In istances will be super hard cuz w/o LS all ppl will die .
This problem have all tanks in NW and also off tanks somthing must be done.
Or another solution is to rise on all tanks dmg a little bit + give them much more threat multipler .
So the new arp is a bit too owerpowered in pvp just think about it if somone use G.PF cut literally all defensive stat in half what does this do??? Lets say you have 16000 defens = 40 % dr mybe you can get another 40 from AC and feats then you have the cap 80% dr & ofc i talk about end game bis player.
But GPF will decrease your def stat by-7200 (45%)then you have only 22 % dr + your 40 % from feats and AC the problem is Arp cap will be 40% and vs any pve spec player can literally eleminate your capped DR from 100% to 17,6% this is 82.4 % arp and this is only the base.
And we talk about end game GF/pally/Sentinel GWF vs common geared player .
So my
Q: Defense will be worthless in mod 6?
Q: All GWF/GF/Pallys will be glass cannons w/o dps ?
PS: w/o any gear change in mod 6 with lvl 70 GWF i hit 50 % arp from attributes con + arp stat +GPF with my current stats i will have 92.4% ARP even aganst sent GWFs and they capped 80 % DR .