Mod 6 Life Steal changes

burkaanc · February 2015

Decided to make a new topic to add 1 more option to poll.

As life steal is now i believe it is too strong, but i really dont like the random factor in new life steal, its not reliable. also it benefits aoe classes/fast attacking classes/proc classes too much, while classes that deal slow, large attacks dont get much out of it cause they waste most of the heal, they simply dont have enough HP to absorb that 300k heal from their attack.

Life steal shouldnt be able to sustain you through dungeons, but it should be able to do it in single player content. Now on mod6 the chance to proc life steal is about same as getting artifact belt in mod4 unless you heavily stack it

Imho they should leave life steal as % from damage, but reduce its effectiveness
Smth like this

make life steal recover amount stolen over X seconds, either stacks or only strongest life steal effect is active
put a cap on how many % of max HP can be recovered/second
make life steal less effective on AoE skills, like 1/3, though only larger aoe skills should count as aoe, smth with tiny AoE like IBS should count as single target for life steal(to correctly tag this skill use aoe for buffs, but add an effect that steals 3x more life from life steal), maybe procs/ranged attacks can use some reduction

The poll options
1)Leave life steal as is, update for new stat curves
2)Leave life steal as % from damage, but reduce its effectiveness
3)New life steal as % chance to proc

maybe some mod could merge this thread in
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?832291-Old-life-steal-vs-New-life-steal

tomiotar · February 2015

I suggest u to add another option on ur poll. Replace Life steal for HP on the sets they already have it and were built around it.

Its clear that the intention its to remove the chance of normal players to self heal during combat (unless u are healer class), but if a player build the defence system of his toon around maximize one stat and then the GMs decide to turn that stat useless (1% proc rate its the same than being removed when u need it for surviving) then the players need get at least something in return instead of just let them die. Rigth now 3k life steal on my temptation warlock its = 0 HP gain before my toon is dead.

effectenstein · February 2015

nothing can be worse than it is right now, i vote the new idea hahahaha

burkaanc · February 2015

tomiotar wrote: »

I suggest u to add another option on ur poll. Replace Life steal for HP on the sets they already have it and were built around it.

Its clear that the intention its to remove the chance of normal players to self heal during combat (unless u are healer class), but if a player build the defence system of his toon around maximize one stat and then the GMs decide to turn that stat useless (1% proc rate its the same than being removed when u need it for surviving) then the players need get at least something in return instead of just let them die. Rigth now 3k life steal on my temptation warlock its = 0 HP gain before my toon is dead.

on stream they said that there will be hp on new sets

rayrdan · February 2015

random proc with old curve would be the best

loboguild · February 2015

It's honestly too early to tell. I think the major topic right now has to be the stat curves overall and what happens with LS is dependent on that. My major concern is that classes that get flat % to LS or have abilities/feats/powers that grant HP have been balanced around the old system and haven't been adjusted so far. There is absolutely no way they can just stay the same.

mfgamesys · February 2015

I would like to see what has been suggested that you can only recover only so much hp with lifesteal via capping based on your total hp and only giving one proc of lifesteal per second.

ogarious · February 2015

I wouldnt mind seeling the percentage reduction as long as the Warlock gets a higher percentage then anyone else. Our class is based around lifesteal. That's why I'm against this change in the first place.

burkaanc · February 2015

i like this kind of life steal, imho PoE did it right
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Leech

loboguild · February 2015

Interestingly, I was thinking about making LS a capped HoT as well.

burkaanc · February 2015

loboguild wrote: »

Interestingly, I was thinking about making LS a capped HoT as well.

this is also more like how the Vampiric dagger owned by Artemis Entreri works

doctordarkspawn · February 2015

Quite frankly, This is -less- damaging then the new lifesteal, but no less infuriating.

But if cryptic insists on changing it, I enjoy this option more. It has a degree of reliability.

ebonyshadow · February 2015

Personally I really dislike being at the mercy of the RNG, so I am predisposed to be against any form of 'chance to proc', I prefer 'reliable' and RNG simply ISN'T.... however I've signed up for the preview shard and lifesteal is one of the things I'll be having a long hard look at, see if it can change my mind.

ghoulz66 · February 2015

Change to a heal over time. With strikers having higher life steal severity.

With a class like the GF, fighters recovery boosts both life steal and severity dramatically.

hercules125 · February 2015

My suggestion would be to leave the mechanics as is, but reduce the percent of lifesteal per hit.
I would also add a chance to proc an ablative shield as compensation for the lost effectiveness. ( the number of hps in that ablative shield could vary by class )

mfgamesys · February 2015

I just see way to much hp spiking with 100% life steal severity. Because one we do not know what kind of stats arti equip will have and artifacts will have. Plus what is going to happen to all of the stat boons.

ermergawrditsfly · February 2015

Anything is better then RNG. RNG is a cancer which every forward thinking modern game has slowly been phasing out.

Even no lifesteal is better then RNG lifesteal. Randomness has no place in an action combat system.

tomiotar · February 2015

ermergawrditsfly wrote: »

Anything is better then RNG. RNG is a cancer which every forward thinking modern game has slowly been phasing out.

Even no lifesteal is better then RNG lifesteal. Randomness has no place in an action combat system.

+1,

U have it or u dont have it, no randomness on something as basic as heal ur toon

zebular · February 2015

Leave life steal as % from damage, but reduce its effectiveness

As it stands now, from what little I have been able to test of LS, the second option currently holds my opinion as well. I don't feel it is bad as it is now on Preview, not at all. It does need some improving and a lot more testing.

zebular · February 2015

burkaanc wrote: »

maybe some mod could merge this thread in
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?832291-Old-life-steal-vs-New-life-steal

Merging the old with the new was looked at. Doing so would either: break both polls or it would cause a jumbled mess of opinions based on one poll or another if we nixed the old poll then merged.

So nay, they won't be merged. Instead, the old one has been locked. Please feel free to continue discussions from there into this thread, as long as they are relevant to this new thread's Original Posted Topic. Thanks!

Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
[ RoC | ToS | Support ]

loboguild · February 2015

From a pure mathematical standpoint, shouldn't you be able to get roughly the same LS/unit (seconds, hits, whatever) from a nerfed old system and the new one?

I mean, adjusting the old system should produce the same numbers, only on a more consistent basis. That's what I'll never get. Why introduce a 10% chance of loot from a boss and not a token, which can be traded for the item when you have ten of them. It's literally the same.

RNG and auto-prcos are already driving players nuts in this game, just saying...

suddenlyslow · February 2015

I don't like any of the options. I prefer it to not be damage based (to be fair to all classes and build and play variations). I would prefer it to be level based damage with an appropriate multiplier based on the lifesteal value but with nowhere near the numbers that can be generated today.. I would also like it to generally be of a dot form with 75% of the lifesteal initially and the other 25% broken over 5 seconds (including the initial) and that it is non stacking (and thus AE attacks do not grant any more). Certain powers/spells/feats could allow for exceptions to the above for when the intention was a more potent lifesteal or an area effect lifesteal.

Now the above approach would be more dependable than what the devs indicated wanting but it also doesn't include the random and unseen results of what they will get with the current system and it will convince some of us to still invest in lifesteal but maybe not to the point we did previously. As it stands now I have no interest in investing in an undependable stat since I would have to play in an evasive manner anyways if the lifesteal was important to my survival and it if wasn't important then it wasn't needed in the first place.

burkaanc · February 2015

loboguild wrote: »

From a pure mathematical standpoint, shouldn't you be able to get roughly the same LS/unit (seconds, hits, whatever) from a nerfed old system and the new one?

not really

its about reliability - with new system you will probably be dead before you see a proc(unless you are one of those lucky ppl who got 10+ artifact belts in mod4) and if you have 30k hp and you hit for 300k with 100% severity proc you waste 90% of the heal

ph33rm3 · February 2015

burkaanc wrote: »

not really

its about reliability - with new system you will probably be dead before you see a proc(unless you are one of those lucky ppl who got 10+ artifact belts in mod4) and if you have 30k hp and you hit for 300k with 100% severity proc you waste 90% of the heal

the old system with LS severity is all that is needed

lerdocix · February 2015

As we know and as devs repetitively remind us, neverwinter is PvE game.
We have 2 healing classes(tept locks are supposed to be somewhat healy, will see how it is in mod6) and 2 tanking classes(if we put sent GWF here, its performance is another for topic) and are getting new that can fill either of these roles.

Now, why would anyone EVER pick a tank or a healer if full DPS parties are 100% self sustained? Reducing current LS will acomplish nothing with the DPS numbers players can dish out. 3% out of 50k DPS will still be enough to keep you going.

Anything that makes healers and tanks more viable in PvE is a big YES from me and will make game more healthy, 5 DPS setups should be "I like challenge!" setups, not "LOL ONE SHOT EVERYTHING WITHOUT STOPPING OR POTTING" setups.

charononus · February 2015

Hard to vote as options 2 or 3 will both work to fix the problems with current ls, and as long as the problem is fixed, the method doesn't matter to me.

saurdel · February 2015

As a full pve gwf, any nerf on life steal would totally give me hell. So it is a big no no for me. Since it's the only defensive stat i rely on (and i prefer it over anything but crit chance) taking it from me would be so cruel. As for pvp, i suck at pvp anyways, so i don't care.

deathbeez · February 2015

I voted to leave it alone.
GF (tanks) needs a much heal as possible. We're slow and agro on purpose. Why take our heals away?!

If a ranged unit gets AOE coming their way, they have the shift key. And see them coming from 40 feet away.

Why not change lifesteal for just ranged units who can stay out of danger by design? Why do tanks get the hell kicked out of them, but CWs have zero fear charging in in epic skirmishes? I've seen this time and time again...

I agree LS is broken for CWs (I have a CW alt), but not for tanks, if anything we need more healing.

But for GFs, no one is listening...

angrysprite · February 2015

Devil's Advocate response:

Many had 'complained' that the game is too easy; there's too much power-creep. Now the Devs have found a solution to make the game more challenging; curb the "power-creep". One cannot have their cake and expect to eat it, too. "Be careful what you wish for" comes to mind.

Perhaps it is a different crowd wanting a more challenging game from those who dislike the additional challenge the LS and Stats changes will bring. I don't know. What I do know is that these changes *will* make the game more challenging at end-levels. And I suspect these changes are a precursor to new, more dynamic, more variety of content to come.

onecoolscatcat · February 2015

I like new lifesteal mechanics. I only wish I knew specifically how it and new stat curves work. Abbadon plotted a rough crit chart, but I'd love seeing official formulae for LS and all stats.

burkaanc · February 2015

angrysprite wrote: »

Devil's Advocate response:

Many had 'complained' that the game is too easy; there's too much power-creep. Now the Devs have found a solution to make the game more challenging; curb the "power-creep". One cannot have their cake and expect to eat it, too. "Be careful what you wish for" comes to mind.

Perhaps it is a different crowd wanting a more challenging game from those who dislike the additional challenge the LS and Stats changes will bring. I don't know. What I do know is that these changes *will* make the game more challenging at end-levels. And I suspect these changes are a precursor to new, more dynamic, more variety of content to come.

well removing life steal from game would be better option than the new life steal

i want harder content but i with my gwf getting hit for 15k from trash mobs i want lifesteal to be somewhat reliable, if not for dungeons then for solo play - running daily quests and stuff, like these homing 5k hits from IWD HE druids

my suggestions would allow life steal to be reliable while glass cannons wouldnt be immortal thanks to it working as HoT and having a cap on how many % of your HP you can regain/sec

it would also allow tanks to stack higher life steal since their higher HP would allow regain more HP/sec

to onecoolscatcat
they said they wont release official formulas for any stats

gentlemancrush wrote: »

I cannot for several reasons. The first of which is that revealing underlying math that controls the game (a la stat curves) would get me in pretty serious trouble. Second reason is that they are substantially more complex to better allow us to tune them on a level by level basis. Each stat curve has additional variables that let us tune or scale how good the curves are for particular level brackets or even particular levels. This gives us a level of control that we did not have with the old flat curves where any change would affect the whole game and made tweaking them far more difficult. With the new curves we can selectively turn a lot more dials and get stats performing where we want them an individual level basis. To accurately graph these curves I would need a better way to communicate 3 and 4 dimensional graphs in visual form. As pretty as 3D graphs are, they aren't very useful for much beyond looking at overall trends

Mod 6 Life Steal changes

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