zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2015
We do know, from the Paladin LiveStream, that Item Level is not a "New Stat" but instead was used to only be a Developer stat that was invisible to us. Instead, it is just "new to us the players" and being further worked on to effectively provide what they wanted GearScore to reflect, which sounds like a direct translation of an items total stats instead of its rarity or however GearScore worked before (and was often wrong, making some items with less stats be better GS than ones with more stats).
Personally, I'd like to see Item Level become visible only to that character and not a public stat. If one really wants to know another's Item Level, let them sit there and do the math themselves or ask the player directly. There's no reason we need a number that effectively becomes a public "stigma" or "badge of honor," based on individual perception.
People will look at your enchantments and legendary artifacts as well as your item level instead. I don't think this changes the dynamic too much.
It doesn't for me at least since that's what I've been looking at all along when I get paired with complete strangers and wanted a quick (and relatively reliable) assessment of what's in store.
That's how it should be. People inspect others to see their attack power - armor pen - recovery etc...
There is this misconception where people think that, high GS = smooth run. Now, I'm not disagreeing with OP here. If you have high GS, that means you are a geared player who capable of doing much better than average players. But it's not entirely about your total amount of GS. It's in your attack power, build, class, enchantments, companion and so on..
Surely, average item level won't solve the problem here. People who are crazy about numbers will always pick the best, and there is nothing we can do to stop them, why should we. But GS is just annoying. I always out dps, out perform people in dungeons, even tho, I'm not the highest GS'd CW in NWO. Should I be ignored just because my GS is 1k lower? that's not right. Sorry, I'm not good at explaining things... But I hope people understand that, there is strict rule in the GS.. There is big difference between 10k GS and 15k GS, but between 15k and 17k? not so much. So.. GS is important, but I hate the fact that it's some sort of a competition.
Because it's a good way to meet new players. Even in games where content is harder than NW this is true.
Meeting new people unless you don't like their gear soyou kick them? I mean I get you when I was starting I used to do the same to build my friendlist. I had a buddy and we went by the rule of three. Basically if you have three competant people in a group you were going to be able to run any content in the game so DD we would grab one other competant person and two whomever wanted to go but we basically ignored GS.
If players generally agree that GS is a good gauge of success for Tiamat then why is GS also deemed inadequate on other occasions. First off, if GS or AIL (or whatever you want to call it) genuinely shows the effectiveness of a player character, then the issue of whether to admit or deny players from contents solely based on one number is a separate one and should be dealt differently. The ills of having a actual barometer to gauge players should not be confused with the (in)accuracy of having one.
That said, Gearscore as it stands now is a flawed one. Yeah sure it don't include everything as it should. But once everything that should be included are, are they really showing the right picture? 3000 defense vs 3000 deflect, do they add linearly to the GS equation? But are they really the same effectiveness? What if that 3000 defense should be heavily discounted due to extreme diminishing return (of say 50%) that in fact it's actually no better than 1500 deflect.. You see where I'm coming from? The current trend is such that defensive stats (HP/Defense/DR/Deflect/Regen/Heal/Recovery etc) are falling behind to offensive ones (ArP/Crit/Power/Lifesteal). So if one build a "tanky" character to 21k+ vs another one leaning more towards "offensive" stats, their effectiveness are really drastically different.
TLDR: Which is why diminishing returns have to be factored into GS/AIL for the correct picture.
Meeting new people unless you don't like their gear soyou kick them? I mean I get you when I was starting I used to do the same to build my friendlist. I had a buddy and we went by the rule of three. Basically if you have three competant people in a group you were going to be able to run any content in the game so DD we would grab one other competant person and two whomever wanted to go but we basically ignored GS.
Yes, however, if you have a newer player you should be able to tell that they won't be able to keep up with you if you do gigantic pulls. Them getting to die all the time or do no damage isn't fun for them either. Things aren't black and white here with GS. There's a lot of gs elitism, however the GS must die attitude is equally bad imo.
@TO: GS is nothing but a p.enismeter to give people reasons for failing.
Examples? - Here they are:
I allways prefer a 10k green equipt dc throwing sacred ground and other groupbuffs at the heads than a 25k dc just going on a rota wich only supports his damage or heal. It doesing matter wich gs you have as dc in tiamat. Playing right gives whole raid at the heads up to 35% more damage. You can be sure that the 25k dc will flame the 10k dc for his equip.
Or all the 20k+ glasscanons. Doesnt matter if pvp or pve, many of them simply rush in dieing in AoE. And when they fail its lag, or the lowie in the the, or mom shouting from behind, or ...
When i first entered a tier 2 dungeon it was with a group of 4 8,5 - 9k GS and a 15k GS HR. After the first dungeons he told us he never had such a group before, especially with this low gs. No deaths, pretty fast, simply no problem. So was my team uber? . Nope, we all just played as a group. After that i often run with randoms. Some groups of 15+ players and with some of the groups we even didnt reach the endbosses.
Long textwall for a short message: No one needs Gearscore ! However it is called, its wrong. All the dungeons where made to be solved bei people of that gs. Its still the player behind the char who makes the difference ... especially in times of uninformed, ignorant playerbases.
Yes, however, if you have a newer player you should be able to tell that they won't be able to keep up with you if you do gigantic pulls. Them getting to die all the time or do no damage isn't fun for them either. Things aren't black and white here with GS. There's a lot of gs elitism, however the GS must die attitude is equally bad imo.
I've never seen that situation come out of GS. I've often seen it from people who were fairly new and did not play very well. Or played well solo and did not understand group dynamics yet. This Mod is literally the first time GS has ever mattered to me. And that is due soley to the poor design on Tiamat.
I've never seen that situation come out of GS. I've often seen it from people who were fairly new and did not play very well. Or played well solo and did not understand group dynamics yet. This Mod is literally the first time GS has ever mattered to me. And that is due soley to the poor design on Tiamat.
While it's not as bad in this game, I have played mmo's for about 10 years now and I have had people freak out on me to stop attacking the mobs, because I was one rotationing them and they didn't feel like they had a shot to play. Most of my comments here about gs are based on total experience with these types of systems, lack of them, and permutations thereof.
The only thing that I'm going to miss about GS is being able to use it judge proportions of stat distribution
For example: (Assume I am talking about CWs or a DPS class here, this doesn't apply to non-dps classes)
If I inspect someone, and see that they have 6k power, and only 12k GS, then I think pretty highly of them - They know what they are doing. However, if that person has 6k power and 20k GS, then I don't think I want them in my party. I guess I use the GS as the basis to judge stat distribution, and while I could calculate this without GS, it takes far longer than it does with.
... Personally, I'd like to see Item Level become visible only to that character and not a public stat. If one really wants to know another's Item Level, let them sit there and do the math themselves or ask the player directly. There's no reason we need a number that effectively becomes a public "stigma" or "badge of honor," based on individual perception.
I agree with this. Too much time is wasted on arguing over GS and pugs and blah blah blah ...
Invisibly gate people to the content, then let their actions do the talking. Risk is part of the adventure, and the fun -- far too many players looking for "guaranteed results".
Comments
Personally, I'd like to see Item Level become visible only to that character and not a public stat. If one really wants to know another's Item Level, let them sit there and do the math themselves or ask the player directly. There's no reason we need a number that effectively becomes a public "stigma" or "badge of honor," based on individual perception.
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to know whether to abuse the PVP kick feature early on or later in the match
Because it's a good way to meet new players. Even in games where content is harder than NW this is true.
That's how it should be. People inspect others to see their attack power - armor pen - recovery etc...
There is this misconception where people think that, high GS = smooth run. Now, I'm not disagreeing with OP here. If you have high GS, that means you are a geared player who capable of doing much better than average players. But it's not entirely about your total amount of GS. It's in your attack power, build, class, enchantments, companion and so on..
Surely, average item level won't solve the problem here. People who are crazy about numbers will always pick the best, and there is nothing we can do to stop them, why should we. But GS is just annoying. I always out dps, out perform people in dungeons, even tho, I'm not the highest GS'd CW in NWO. Should I be ignored just because my GS is 1k lower? that's not right. Sorry, I'm not good at explaining things... But I hope people understand that, there is strict rule in the GS.. There is big difference between 10k GS and 15k GS, but between 15k and 17k? not so much. So.. GS is important, but I hate the fact that it's some sort of a competition.
Well that's an honest answer....
Meeting new people unless you don't like their gear soyou kick them? I mean I get you when I was starting I used to do the same to build my friendlist. I had a buddy and we went by the rule of three. Basically if you have three competant people in a group you were going to be able to run any content in the game so DD we would grab one other competant person and two whomever wanted to go but we basically ignored GS.
That said, Gearscore as it stands now is a flawed one. Yeah sure it don't include everything as it should. But once everything that should be included are, are they really showing the right picture? 3000 defense vs 3000 deflect, do they add linearly to the GS equation? But are they really the same effectiveness? What if that 3000 defense should be heavily discounted due to extreme diminishing return (of say 50%) that in fact it's actually no better than 1500 deflect.. You see where I'm coming from? The current trend is such that defensive stats (HP/Defense/DR/Deflect/Regen/Heal/Recovery etc) are falling behind to offensive ones (ArP/Crit/Power/Lifesteal). So if one build a "tanky" character to 21k+ vs another one leaning more towards "offensive" stats, their effectiveness are really drastically different.
TLDR: Which is why diminishing returns have to be factored into GS/AIL for the correct picture.
Yes, however, if you have a newer player you should be able to tell that they won't be able to keep up with you if you do gigantic pulls. Them getting to die all the time or do no damage isn't fun for them either. Things aren't black and white here with GS. There's a lot of gs elitism, however the GS must die attitude is equally bad imo.
Examples? - Here they are:
I allways prefer a 10k green equipt dc throwing sacred ground and other groupbuffs at the heads than a 25k dc just going on a rota wich only supports his damage or heal. It doesing matter wich gs you have as dc in tiamat. Playing right gives whole raid at the heads up to 35% more damage. You can be sure that the 25k dc will flame the 10k dc for his equip.
Or all the 20k+ glasscanons. Doesnt matter if pvp or pve, many of them simply rush in dieing in AoE. And when they fail its lag, or the lowie in the the, or mom shouting from behind, or ...
When i first entered a tier 2 dungeon it was with a group of 4 8,5 - 9k GS and a 15k GS HR. After the first dungeons he told us he never had such a group before, especially with this low gs. No deaths, pretty fast, simply no problem. So was my team uber? . Nope, we all just played as a group. After that i often run with randoms. Some groups of 15+ players and with some of the groups we even didnt reach the endbosses.
Long textwall for a short message: No one needs Gearscore ! However it is called, its wrong. All the dungeons where made to be solved bei people of that gs. Its still the player behind the char who makes the difference ... especially in times of uninformed, ignorant playerbases.
I've never seen that situation come out of GS. I've often seen it from people who were fairly new and did not play very well. Or played well solo and did not understand group dynamics yet. This Mod is literally the first time GS has ever mattered to me. And that is due soley to the poor design on Tiamat.
While it's not as bad in this game, I have played mmo's for about 10 years now and I have had people freak out on me to stop attacking the mobs, because I was one rotationing them and they didn't feel like they had a shot to play. Most of my comments here about gs are based on total experience with these types of systems, lack of them, and permutations thereof.
For example: (Assume I am talking about CWs or a DPS class here, this doesn't apply to non-dps classes)
If I inspect someone, and see that they have 6k power, and only 12k GS, then I think pretty highly of them - They know what they are doing. However, if that person has 6k power and 20k GS, then I don't think I want them in my party. I guess I use the GS as the basis to judge stat distribution, and while I could calculate this without GS, it takes far longer than it does with.
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I agree with this. Too much time is wasted on arguing over GS and pugs and blah blah blah ...
Invisibly gate people to the content, then let their actions do the talking. Risk is part of the adventure, and the fun -- far too many players looking for "guaranteed results".