Neverwinter Lore Vs forgotten realms Lore (Warning: This IS a Nurd post)

blackfoxaltoro · January 2015

As warned this is a NURD posts after going over the storyline of the game as I've been reading over the Lore you get in dribs and drabs in the game. There have always been small inconsistencies, but never like what I'm seeing here, there are BIG storyline holes of" What the heck", "how is this missing and how did that happen" and "what time are we in" points all over the place.

Now I have followed forgotten realms for as long as I can remember back when Bioware were still involved with Atari and Swordcoast (before EA took BW over) and they worked hand in hand on the games such as Baldurs Gate 1 and 2, Icewindale 1 & 2 Neverwinter nights 1 and 2 and then we have Neverwinter, which is supposed to be Linked to its predecessors. But I'm having trouble here, in the time of Trouble (aka war of the gods) only 1 God is first said to have died, and that was Bhaal the god of Murder, hence the whole game about Bhaal Spawn who turns out to be the hero stopping the return of Bhaal and in that time the human Torm became a Paladin god becoming fast friends with the other two paladin gods Tyr and Helm, hence the 3 paladin orders always working together since these 3 gods are always working together, pluss into that the usual Tri-group Iimater - god of healing, suffering and Martyrdom (aka god of Clerics who is somehow missing in the game) Torm and Tyr

Yet somehow along the way the Goddess of Magic Mystry (neutral good god) got killed?! hence the chasm? WHEN how and where did this happen and how come magic did not die with her and who replaced her if she did die because without her magic would no longer exists (that is under DnDs own lore in forgotten realms regarding gods/devil land realm stability and thus their power because if the gods of the realms die without a replacement the realm would collapse) and if she didn't Die what really happened? The game is somewhat conflicting with the forgotten realms Lore laid down in dnd books and your own time line. Also what timeline is what, the wiki speaks of Neverember in the era of DR...Yet the Game is set up DY? What era are we supposed to be in. DR or DY? Everything in the game goes on about DY, yet everything about the content and people in the game are DR.

So just what Era are we in exactly? At the moment it seems to be an utter mix of ALL timelines while being in a time line and at the same time being none and missing key bits of story.

heck in your timelines on the wiki you have gods teaming up with each other when everything about them would make them want to kill each other for power grabs. For example Shar (a Neutral evil god who's allied with Myrkul) and Cyric (a chaotic Evil god who's out to make himself the only god and responsible to Bhaals death) these two would NEVER work together yet you put them has having done so to kill Mystra? who apparently according to the time line isn't dead, and somehow comes back and solves the spell plague, yet in the game we're told she's dead and that 2 gods that would sooner kill each other just because have suddenly put aside all that to kill her then her temple falls to the earth and suddenly spell plague? Is it me or is this just not making Sense.

I know you guys can only do so much with 4e books Considering whoever wrote those needs hitting with wet kipper with someone shouting "NI" at him/her until they repent for the abomination that is 4e DnD books that make NO sense what so ever and have broken the game down so zombies can play but in fact have made the game unplayable (but that’s a WHOLE other topic) But still I would expect a level of matching up with your own stories and timelines not this mass of chaos. I'm not saying to story is bad but its plot holes need fixing and sense needs to be made otherwise the whole story is "What the hell is mess" and "For the love of the powers that be make up your mind!"

I Would also like to point out in researching though these sources that mystra did come back after being killed by “cyric and Shar” as is put in this timeline on the wiki, which is put in right here.

“1479 "Year of the Ageless One" 10 years ago
In an event attributed to the return of the Goddess of Magic, Mystra, those afflicted with the Spellplague are miraculously cured of its debilitating effects. Though some isolated pockets remain, the Sword Coast is finally free from the affliction.”

As you can see the entire storyline of spellplague in Neverwinter does not even exists since she cures sword coast from the affliction but the pockets would be a huge section of Neverwinter city as that would be surely class as a epidemic.
Even though Helm Killed Mystra as she tried to get back to god realms after the Bane stole the tablet of fates from Ao as he banished them all to Toril which thus started the Time of Troubles and the Bhaal Spawn saga.
As I said that Mystra was alive as pointed out here in this.in a wiki.

“Fourth Incarnation
Mystra returned to the Forgotten Realms in 1479 DR. A vestige of Mystra had survived her death in 1385 DR, and was guiding her Chosen to aid in her renewal. The Simbul was tasked to close multiple rifts in the Weave and between realms. In doing this task, she absorbed much Silverfire and Blue Flame. The Simbul gifted all of that energy to Elminster, who in turn freely returned it to Mystra in a cave within the King's Forest of Cormyr. This new Mystra was a combination of the memories of Mystra and Midnight/Mystra, and presumably of Mystryl as she had drawn her memories from the Weave rather than from personal experience.
Mystra's return was highlighted as part of the Dungeons & Dragons Encounters adventure War of Everlasting Darkness by Wizards of the Coast in 2012. She assisted the adventurers in defeating Lolth and her efforts to plunge Faerun into everlasting darkness, which would have allowed the drow to invade and conquer the surface realms.

”

Sources:

DnD Books from 3e - 4e

Games: Baldrus gate - Neverwinter

Online & wiki's

http://swordcoaststories.wikia.com/wiki/A_timeline_of_the_Sword_Coast here it tells you that Cryic and Shar worktogether to kill the goddess of magic oh and that she's not dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyric this is about the God Cyric and tells you that Helm killed the goddess of magic.
In The Grand History of the Realms, by Wizards of the Coast, it is stated that Cyric is somehow behind the murder of Helm (1384 D.R.), though Tyr is the one who actually has Helm's blood on his hands? (Again why would Tyr kill Helm?! And why is Tyr in the game dead but not Helm?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Forgotten_Realms_deities How many Neutral gods do you want?! half have been moved from one of the 3 goods to neutral. This also lists them and their jobs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyr_%28Forgotten_Realms%29 "relief of suffering, duty, obedience, honor, and to some extent righteous martyrdom. Not coincidentally, these values are ones held by most paladins and any given paladin in Abeir-Toril is more likely to follow the Triad" <- that Triad being Tyr, Iimater and Torm.

http://www.reality.net/dnd/pdf/DnD%20-%20Deities%20and%20Demigods%20-%20iOCR.pdf

And JUST so you can see how the game dosn't match up to its Background Lore here is Neverwinters Wiki.

http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Deity

Honestly if people are going to make a game based on something that’s already in place, there should be some kind of LAW somewhere that tells them to research it first then at least it will FIT the storyline not brake it. It’s Very obvious that the whole Saga is really the Heroes & gods of Faerun Vs Cyric

zebular · January 2015

We're entering 5th edition lore, where Mystra is has just regained sentience (Mystra has never and can never truly "die" unless one destroys all magic, including Selûne and Shar. Mystra is magic, given consciousness.). Expect future content to convey this, just as Tyranny of Dragons ushers in the events of the Third Sundering.

Everything in the game is canon lore, as has been dictated by Wizards of the Coast. I am not sure what you're so upset about. Mayhaps its because the game lore started in the wickedly troubled 4th edition lore, as that is when it was developed, and is now being transitioned to the correct lore. Just as it has done in canon lore, to 5th edition as written by Ed Greenwood, Salvatore, and other notable authors, who once again have creative control over the Realms.

Rereading your post again for the third time, it sounds like you're mixing the events of Mystra's 2nd "death" (Time of the Troubles) with her 3rd "death" (The Spellplague). For you say she was Neutral Good when she died the last time. This is incorrect, she became Chaotic Good after she was "killed' in the Time of the Troubles. Right now, we're sometime shortly after the start of 1479 DR. Whether we're in 1479 DR or a year after that, is unclear, as the exact date has never been released for Neverwinter.

Neverwinter's questline is a progressive story. When you first roll a character, presume you're in 1479DR, 94 years after the spellplague (Mystra's 3rd "death"). As you advance through the story, your character is advancing the timeline to what we have now, the Third Sundering being ushered in by the Tyranny of Dragons.

I suggest you read the Neverwinter Campaign Setting (4th edition) source material, as you will then see that is all spot on. If you like novels, read the Sundering series and you'll see how events in the game convey the events in those novels as well (like the random appearance of Mask in the Masquerade of Liars event).

ironzerg79 · January 2015

At this point, Neverwinter is on it's own timeline, sort of like a homebrewed campaign.

It looks like they're going to try to parallel the official storyline as we transition from the 4E to the 5E setting, but it's not going to fit perfectly, which is fine.

But you'll have to start referencing the lore as it appears in Neverwinter. Looking at other sources as to what's official isn't going to match up precisely anymore.

I realized when the "failure" cinematic showed Elminster calling on the power of Mystryl that Cryptic was basically in the process of hand-waving away a lot of the Spellplague lore from 4E and ushering in the new setting defined by 5E.

Which I'm perfectly fine with. Neverwinter is it's own universe.

With that being said, I'm really hoping that Module 6 does a good job of "transitioning" the players. It looks like the first new area is going to show progress in Blackdagger, so that gives me hope.

blackfoxaltoro · January 2015

zebular wrote: »

We're entering 5th edition lore, where Mystra is has just regained sentience (Mystra has never and can never truly "die" unless one destroys all magic, including Selûne and Shar. Mystra is magic, given consciousness.). Expect future content to convey this, just as Tyranny of Dragons ushers in the events of the Third Sundering.

Everything in the game is canon lore, as has been dictated by Wizards of the Coast. I am not sure what you're so upset about. Mayhaps its because the game lore started in the wickedly troubled 4th edition lore, as that is when it was developed, and is now being transitioned to the correct lore. Just as it has done in canon lore, to 5th edition as written by Ed Greenwood, Salvatore, and other notable authors, who once again have creative control over the Realms.

Rereading your post again for the third time, it sounds like you're mixing the events of Mystra's 2nd "death" (Time of the Troubles) with her 3rd "death" (The Spellplague). Right now, we're sometime shortly after the start of 1479 DR. Whether we're in 1479 DR or a year after that, is unclear, as the exact date has never been released for Neverwinter.

Neverwinter's questline is a progressive story. When you first roll a character, presume you're in 1479DR, 94 years after the spellplague (Mystra's 3rd "death"). As you advance through the story, your character is advancing the timeline to what we have now, the Third Sundering being ushered in by the Tyranny of Dragons.

I suggest you read the Neverwinter Campaign Setting (4th edition) source material, as you will then see that is all spot on. If you like novels, read the Sundering series and you'll see how events in the game convey the events in those novels as well (like the random appearance of Mask in the Masquerade of Liars event).

At times like this zebular I'm glad your a nurdy nurd (I mean this in a good way. )
I'm going off the bits I am finding all over the place in the game its self, then looking at the wiki's. I would like to point out I'm not upset but I am Confused to heck trying to make sense of it. See I'm off work ill at the moment so have to much free time (as you have probs noticed lol) so I started reading the lore I've collected in the game and .I'm like "eh.... nevermber is DR why is it going on about DY?" then I read about the goddess of magic and i'm like "Eh... I don't remember that MUST consult books!" so I do, nothing to match so I consolt game wiki and dnd wiki's and again it becomes a confusing mess. So I think HMMMmm I wonder if other nurds have noticed this, there is bound to be one SOMEWHERE that can clarefy this.

Also your saying your using 5e? then this puts the whole timeline into more flux on the Spellplague, which is my biggest "umm why is that still here." thing.

zebular · January 2015

Okay, let me give you a run down of Mystra, as this may help to clear up what you're confusing.

D&D to AD&D
In the beginning, there was Lord Ao and the Master. Lord Ao looked at the empty space that would become Realmspace and created the world Abeir-Toril. From which, he created Selune and Shar. These two goddess gave birth and created other gods as well. During their most destructive battle ever, Selune ripped all magic from herself and hurled it at Shar. Instead of it destroying Shar as Selune hoped, it ripped through Shar and pulled all of Shar's magic from her. The two magics coalesced and became intelligent. This intelligence called herself Mystryl (Chaotic Neutral), the Goddess of All Magic and Time. At some point, the Primordials and Gods came to a war that would destroy the entire world. Instead, Lord Ao split the worlds in two, Abeir and gave it to the Primordials, and our world, Toril and gave it to the Gods.

AD&D
Then came Netheril in the Arcane Age, which gave rise to Archwizard Karsus who sought to become a god in his own right. He created the 12th level wizard spell, Karsus' Avatar. This spell would allow him to take all the power from any being he named. When he cast it, he named Mytsryl. Mystryl frowned and in order to preserve herself, she reincarnated herself into Mystra (Lawful Neutral) and reshaped the laws of magic, banning all magic above 9th level. Eventually, she transitioned to Chaotic Good in alignment.

AD&D 2nd Ed. to 3rd Ed.
Then came the Avatar Crisis, where Lord Ao, the Over-god, cast down all the gods into mortal form for their wickedness, as his Tablets of Fate were stolen. During this time also known as the Time of the Troubles, Mystra was slain in mortal form. Her essence (magic) reincarnated herself again into Mystra (Neutral Good).

AD&D 3rd Ed. to 4th Ed.
For while, all was stable with Mystra. Then, approximately 94 years ago, Mystra was slain again in her home plane. This was devastating as almost every plane of existence collapsed and fell into the Astral Plane. At the same time, the Third Sundering was well underway and the two worlds of Abeir and Toril collided in a "Divine" sense, with parts from one world being transposed into the other, and vice versa. Mystra laid mostly dormant in magic, communicating with her chosens through powerful magical items that were directly touched by her essence, called Blue Flame Items.

<<This is where we're at now in Neverwinter, transitioning into the following>>

AD&D 5th Edition (a.k.a. D&D Next)
Through her guidance, her chosens helped her to reincarnate herself again into Mystra (5th edition) and is now Neutral Good once more. The Third Sundering is now coming to a close, as the Spellplague is the final event in the third Sundering. This is seen by the ushering in of the Tyranny of Dragons. Relatively soon (in an MMO), we should see this all coming to a close with the full might of Mystra being restored.

blackfoxaltoro · January 2015

ah ha! so everytime Mystra "blows up" the Spellplague is set loose?

odjn1altoro · January 2015

zebular wrote: »

Okay, let me give you a run down of Mystra, as this may help to clear up what you're confusing.

In the beginning, there was Lord Ao and the Master. Lord Ao looked at the empty space that would become Realmspace and created the world Abeir-Toril. From which, he created Selune and Shar. These two goddess gave birth and created other gods as well. During their most destructive battle ever, Selune ripped all magic from herself and hurled it at Shar. Instead of it destroying Shar as Selune hoped, it ripped through Shar and pulled all of Shar's magic from her. The two magics coalesced and became intelligent. This intelligence called herself Mystryl (Chaotic Neutral), the Goddess of All Magic and Time. At some point, the Primordials and Gods came to a war that would destroy the entire world. Instead, Lord Ao split the worlds in two, Abeir and gave it to the Primordials, and our world, Toril and gave it to the Gods.

Then came Netheril in the Arcane Age, which gave rise to Archwizard Karsus who sought to become a god in his own right. He created the 12th level wizard spell, Karsus' Avatar. This spell would allow him to take all the power from any being he named. When he cast it, he named Mytsryl. Mystryl frowned and in order to preserve herself, she reincarnated herself into Mystra (Lawful Neutral) and reshaped the laws of magic, banning all magic above 9th level. Eventually, she transitioned to ChoticGood in alignment.

Then came the Avatar Crisis, where Lord Ao, the Over-god, cast down all the gods into mortal form for their wickedness, as his Tablets of Fate were stolen. During this time also known as the Time of the Troubles, Mystra was slain in mortal form. Her essence (magic) reincarnated herself again into Mystra (Neutral Good).

Then, approximately 94 years ago, Mystra was slain again in her home plane. This was devastating as almost every plane of existence collapsed and fell into the Astral Plane. At the same time, the Third Sundering was well underway and the two world of Abeir and Toril collided in a "Divine" sense, with parts from one world being transposed into the other, and vice versa. Mystra laid mostly dormant in magic, communicating with her chosens through powerful magical items that were directly touched by her essence, called Blue Flame Items. <<This is where we're at now in Neverwinter, transitioning into the following>> Through her guidance, her chosens helped her to reincarnate herself again into Mystra (5th edition) and is now Neutral Good once more. The Third Sundering is now coming to a close, as the Spellplague is the final event in the third Sundering. This is seen by the ushering in of the Tyranny of Dragons. Relatively soon (in an MMO), we should see this all coming to a close with the full might of Mystra being restored.

I would also like to add something to this discussion on Mystra myself as it seems that since she cured the spellplague when she came back and now their is only isolated pockets why is their a huge chasm of it infecting most of neverwinter?
Also for myself i will add my own research on her second incantation regarding Nethril.

"Second Incarnation

Mystra came into being after Mystryl sacrificed herself to save Faerûn from the destruction of Netheril caused by Karsus in DR -339. Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the weave before the damage became irreparable. When reincarnated as Mystra, she used the form of a peasant girl learning the basics of cantra magic but with the capacities for archwizardry. She recreated the weave of magic with a few more rules, and no spell above 9th level would function.

Priests and priestesses of the new goddess of magic were told the story of Karsus in dreams and visions when they prayed for spells. It was Mystra’s attempt to make sure that nothing like this ever happened again. Yet Karsus was accredited as being the only human to have ever achieved godhood through spellcasting, even if was only for a fleeting moment."

blackfoxaltoro · January 2015

hah hah this is why I warned its a nurd post, even us she-nurds grow beards XD

zebular · January 2015

odjn1altoro wrote: »

I would also like to add something to this discussion on Mystra myself as it seems that since she cured the spellplague when she came back and now their is only isolated pockets why is their a huge chasm of it infecting most of neverwinter?
Also for myself i will add my own research on her second incantation regarding Nethril.

"Second Incarnation

Mystra came into being after Mystryl sacrificed herself to save Faerûn from the destruction of Netheril caused by Karsus in DR -339. Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the weave before the damage became irreparable. When reincarnated as Mystra, she used the form of a peasant girl learning the basics of cantra magic but with the capacities for archwizardry. She recreated the weave of magic with a few more rules, and no spell above 9th level would function.

Priests and priestesses of the new goddess of magic were told the story of Karsus in dreams and visions when they prayed for spells. It was Mystra’s attempt to make sure that nothing like this ever happened again. Yet Karsus was accredited as being the only human to have ever achieved godhood through spellcasting, even if was only for a fleeting moment."

I updated my post to give more insight. Your post is correct, however it is now known and published by Ed himself, they she has never truly died, that she is magic itself, her consciousness is The Weave. Without her sentience, the Weave is unstable. Shar wants her magic back so she can once again control the Shadow Weave without impunity. This is why Shar hates Mystra, even though she is, in essence, the daughter of Selune's and Shar's coupling of each of their Magic. This is also why Selune loves Mystra.

The Weave of Magic

The worlds within the D&D multiverse are magical places. All existence is suffused with magical power, and potential energy lies untapped in every rock, stream, and living creature, and even in the air itself. Raw magic is the stuff of creation, the mute and mindless will of existence, permeating every bit of matter and present in every manifestation of energy throughout the multiverse.

Mortals can’t directly shape this raw magic. Instead, they make use of a fabric of magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuf of raw magic. The spellcasters of the Forgotten Realms call it the Weave and recognize its essence as the goddess Mystra, but casters have varied ways of naming and visualizing this interface.

By any name, without the Weave, raw magic is locked away and inaccessible; the most powerful archmage can’t light a candle with magic in an area where the Weave has been torn. But surrounded by the Weave, a spellcaster can shape lightning to blast foes, transport hundreds of miles in the blink of an eye, or even reverse death itself.

All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding—learned or intuitive—of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect. Eldritch knights and arcane tricksters also use arcane magic. The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters’ access to the Weave is mediated by divine power—gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin’s oath.

Whenever a magic effect is created, the threads of the Weave intertwine, twist, and fold to make the effect possible. When characters use divination spells such as detect magic or identify, they glimpse the Weave. A spell such asdispel magic smooths the Weave. Spells such as antimagic field rearrange the Weave so that magic flows around, rather than through, the area affected by the spell. And in places where the Weave is damaged or torn, magic works in unpredictable ways—or not at all.

odjn1altoro · January 2015

but also i would like to add she came back via her chosen and with the help of Elminster in the kings forest during the 4th edition add-on book called Dungeons & Dragons Encounters adventure War of Everlasting Darkness.

zebular · January 2015

odjn1altoro wrote: »

but also i would like to add she came back via her chosen and with the help of Elminster in the kings forest during the 4th edition add-on book called Dungeons & Dragons Encounters adventure War of Everlasting Darkness.

That's her speaking to her Chosens through what sentient magical items exist that contain her very essence. I mentioned that in my post above, the "AD&D 3rd Ed. to 4th Ed." part. Keep in mind, that module was designed to transition the lore to 5th edition, which is why it was made to be easily translated to 5th edition rules.

blackfoxaltoro · January 2015

odjn1altoro wrote: »

but also i would like to add she came back via her chosen and with the help of Elminster in the kings forest during the 4th edition add-on book called Dungeons & Dragons Encounters adventure War of Everlasting Darkness.

O_O is that 4e or 5e? this is a book missing from me collection!

blackfoxaltoro · January 2015

oh thanks for movng my post zebular, wasn't sure if it should be here or Gen'.

odjn1altoro · January 2015

it's 4e book but as i said the timeline is abit off about mystra since the over-lord Ao who speaks for the overall god known as the being of light said mystra was the strongest god apart from him.
I would like to know why spellplague still exists since she cured toril of it's affliction in the first place?
as for her speaking to her chosen it was via Simbul as the chosen closed rifts in the mortal realm and god realm so she could gather the blue flame and then Elminster gave some of his to her form herslf from memories from the weave, which consisted of mystra, midnight/mystra and mystryl.

zebular · January 2015

odjn1altoro wrote: »

it's 4e book but as i said the timeline is abit off about mystra since the over-lord Ao who speaks for the overall god known as the being of light said mystra was the strongest god apart from him.
I would like to know why spellplague still exists since she cured toril of it's affliction in the first place?
as for her speaking to her chosen it was via Simbul as the chosen closed rifts in the mortal realm and god realm so she could gather the blue flame and then Elminster gave some of his to her form herslf from memories from the weave, which consisted of mystra, midnight/mystra and mystryl.

She didn't cure the world until the end of the Third Sundering. We're still in the Third Sundering in Neverwinter. The events you're stating are the events of the The Third Sundering, which the Spellplague was the 2nd major event of the Third Sundering. You may want to read this. The only true inconsistency in game right now is the Tyranny of Dragons, and Elminster's sanity and control of time, which is overcome if you look at all the zones and leveling quest lines as a progression through this Third Sundering.

So, from all the content UP TO the Tyranny of Dragons, is the time period when her Chosens are communicating with her to try and help her to reincarnate herself. If you notice, there is no signs of the Spellplague in the Well of Dragons content. Again, the inconsistency lies here, as Cryptic hasn't implemented any changes to the rest of the game to coincide with the events the Tyranny of Dragons content suggests we're in. The end of the Tyranny of Dragons lore would be the completed end of the Third Sundering and marking true transition into 5th edition.

Whether or not we'll see the pre-Tyranny of Dragons content in Neverwinter Online reshaped to fit entirely into 5th edition lore from character creation to end content, we have yet to see.

Unknown · January 2015

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zebular · January 2015

clonkyo1 wrote: »

This is a bit erroneus due this "Mystra" is the 3rd one, she just "resurrected" again out from nowhere (which, imo, WotC should have left her dead for good and make another successor) as she is the Successor of Mystryl, the first "Goddes if Magic"

You are incorrect. When Midnight ascended into Mystra, she was absorbed by the Weave. This was the spark to give Mystra (The Weave) consciousness once again, thus becoming Mystra once more. Then when she "died" and the Spellplague happened, throughout the entirety of 4th edition, Mystra was communicating with her Chosens from these Blue Flame Items, and her essence residing in her Chosens. Through her Chosen's actions, she emerged from her essences contained in Blue Flame Items and Chosens, re-entered what was left of the unconscious and writhing Weave, and was reborn.

If Mystra were to never have been given consciousness again, Shar would be able to retake her portion of Mystra and remake her Shadow Weave and Selune would have been able to take back her magic as well. Even if this did happen, Mystra really wouldn't have died, but would have lived on, re-absorbed by the two Goddesses that gave her consciousness. We'd then once again have two Weaves of Magic, as we did in the time of the Primordials. One controlled by Selune, the other by Shar. Lolth wants it all for herself, she wants to be Mystra.

As the Goddess of Time, Mystryl wouldn't allow that and has foreseen all possible futures and made necessary precautions, and continues to do so. Only Lord Ao (and the Master) keeps her from ruling as supreme deity over all of the Multiverse by making her spread her essence throughout the Realms, as Blue Flame Items and taking on Chosens.

To accomplish any of this, one would need to kill Mystra, Kill all Her Chosens, Destroy all Magic that contains sentient essences of Mystra, and then wait hundreds to thousands of years for that magic to return to the Weave, then take it. Gods have tried, they all have failed.

Unknown · January 2015

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zebular · January 2015

clonkyo1 wrote: »

Seems like you forgot to mention that, when the Veil fell, the Dark/Black Veil also fell because both are occuping the same space. That is the main reason that "Shad" could not take over the Veil, because the Dark Veil were "crushed" too.

That does not invalidate anything I have said, only supports it further. The current Shadow Weave is not the original Shadow Weave that Shar once had before Mystryl existed. It took hundreds of thousands of years for Shar to create what she called the Shadow Weave, which was similar to the Weave of Magic, but was not the same Shadow Weave she once had. It is Shar's essence, a pittance of the power she once had. The Shadow Weave I mentioned in my posts above, I was referring to the Shadow Weave prior to Mystryl. As the Shadow Weave you speak of was created on the fabric and laws of the Weave of Magic, naturally it collapsed too.

s1lv3rdrgnforum · January 2015

Slightly unrelated to the absolutely awesome topic..

1. What happens when Ed Greenwood stops writing.. :P

2. I feel sorry for Cryptic in a way. They have *SO* much work to do and *SO* much pressure from all sides.

3. (more related to the topic) What happens with magic (the weave) now then? Will we get Wizardry back and the ability to swap spells through memorization? Or is that a thing of the past forever for all magic users to seem like Sorcerers..?

found this question (and answer) since I dont have the books it was easier to just google.

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/44400/how-does-wizard-cleric-spell-preparation-and-casting-work

Since unfortunately no-one can really answer how Cryptic is going to deal with this, my question becomes moot. (imo, I doubt anything changes in NW because allowing CW's to actually become versatile would be near game breaking. Additionally, since there is no "day/night" cycle in NW the mechanics of choosing spells for the day and managing slots and rest periods would take a lot of extra coding.)

edit2 (not necessarily true, upon further thought I remembered that NW does already have a "daily" function in IWD causing the player to choose sides on a daily basis. How amazing would that be... choosing your 4 encounters from say.. 12 or so different choices on a daily basis..) (well in that vein it would actually be more restrictive as now we choose from all of the control wizards abilities on the fly.. u want steal time instead of icy terrain .. no problem.. not so if you have to "declare" them at the start of the day..)

zebular · January 2015

s1lv3rdrgnforum wrote: »

3. (more related to the topic) What happens with magic (the weave) now then? Will we get Wizardry back and the ability to swap spells through memorization? Or is that a thing of the past forever for all magic users to seem like Sorcerers..?

In 5th edition, it's pretty much back to the way it was in 2nd edition except that now you can expend a higher level prepared spell slot to cast a lower leveled spell you have prepared. For example, if you have magic missile and fireball both prepared but use all your first level slots, you can use a 3rd level slot preparation of fireball to instead cast magic missile again. Instead of only having "memorized spells" you "prepare them" and can expend your slots of that level on any of your prepared spells. You only get a certain amount of slot to prepare spells, which is a table like the original wizard table for how many spells you can memorize.

s1lv3rdrgnforum wrote: »

found this question (and answer) since I dont have the books it was easier to just google.

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/44400/how-does-wizard-cleric-spell-preparation-and-casting-work

Since unfortunately no-one can really answer how Cryptic is going to deal with this, my question becomes moot. (imo, I doubt anything changes in NW because allowing CW's to actually become versatile would be near game breaking. Additionally, since there is no "day/night" cycle in NW the mechanics of choosing spells for the day and managing slots and rest periods would take a lot of extra coding.)

edit2 (not necessarily true, upon further thought I remembered that NW does already have a "daily" function in IWD causing the player to choose sides on a daily basis. How amazing would that be... choosing your 4 encounters from say.. 12 or so different choices on a daily basis..)

I doubt we'll see any of this as Neverwinter Online uses its own Ruleset for game mechanics. As Cryptic CEO Jack Emmert once put it, (paraphrasing) "While Neverwinter is technically 4th edition ruleset, it is actually its own edition of the rules." To change that would change the fundamental mechanics of the game. We don't need 5th edition mechanics to enjoy it's lore. Lore and Gameplay Rules are not something that have to be in tangent. Heck, my PnP Campaign still uses 2nd edition while the lore is all influenced by all the editions.

Unknown · January 2015

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zebular · January 2015

clonkyo1 wrote: »

What we are talking about is that Mystra can die which, in fact, did it twice as happened to Bane or Moander, not about the possible "seizure/takeover" of Shar and "how" Mystra communicate with the Sisters or Elmister.

Again, she has never died. She merely went dormant. Mortals perceive this as death. Mystra is Magic given consciousness. No one has yet killed magic since Lord Ao created Selune and Shar. Of which, I already admitted it is possible, it just hasn't been done yet. Even when a normal god "dies," they don't die. They are reformed in the Astral Sea and will come back in 100 years unless something finds and absorbs their Astral Form. Again, mortals perceive such as death. It is not. It is transferring of essence, which can be understanded better when one looks to how Corellon took Eilistraee into himself. As other gods have done to other gods, and some of those absorbed gods come back from.

You may want to read up on actual Source Material as it sounds like you're basing everything off of Wikis and Novels, or other stories told. None of which, not even Adventures and Modules, accurately describe the actual fundamentals of how gods live and "die." Gods have their own rules in source material. I have lived and breathed Forgotten Realms source material for over 20 years.

Unknown · January 2015

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zebular · January 2015

clonkyo1 wrote: »

So, Mystry, then, is just an illusion on the Forgotten Realms Lore... oks, nice to know.

Nah, you're confusing mortal perception (lore) with how things actually work (source material) that mortals in the realms can barely perceive.

yriel3 · May 2015

zebular wrote: »

Again, she has never died. She merely went dormant. Mortals perceive this as death. Mystra is Magic given consciousness. No one has yet killed magic since Lord Ao created Selune and Shar. Of which, I already admitted it is possible, it just hasn't been done yet. Even when a normal god "dies," they don't die. They are reformed in the Astral Sea and will come back in 100 years unless something finds and absorbs their Astral Form. Again, mortals perceive such as death. It is not. It is transferring of essence, which can be understanded better when one looks to how Corellon took Eilistraee into himself. As other gods have done to other gods, and some of those absorbed gods come back from.

You may want to read up on actual Source Material as it sounds like you're basing everything off of Wikis and Novels, or other stories told. None of which, not even Adventures and Modules, accurately describe the actual fundamentals of how gods live and "die." Gods have their own rules in source material. I have lived and breathed Forgotten Realms source material for over 20 years.

Eilistraee is indeed back in 5e, and so is Vhaeraun. However, the details of the how are still unknown: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=13#468322

However to me it doesn't seem like Corellon had a hand in it, since in the upcoming novel, Spellstorm, it is said that Mystra is sharing the Weave with Eilistraee, among others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilistraee#The_Sundering). Maybe that is a hint to something that will be revealed later...

angrysprite · May 2015

Necro'd thread. But since it was resurrected I just thought I'd chime-in on this aspect before it's locked:

To me: Forgotten Realms Lore sukz. Lore-wise I was raised on Dragonlance; love it. Then along comes Forgotten Realms and this foofoofaerieFaerun business. Fair enough.

So I finally got my first taste of a Forgotten Realms novel (Thank you Cryptic; I won a contest on Twitter) - I've been reading it and though it's an interesting read it's a real joke. Magic is supposed to be something special and rare but in FR it's everywhere, everyone has enchanted rings and swords and whips and whatnot.

Piizzpoor writing and zero creative solutions to whatever the writer wants: can't answer it in a creative way? No problem: there's a magic ring for that. Hero in a bind and overwhelmed? No problem: there's a magic [name your artifact] for that - and *everyone* has one, nay: many.

Okay, whatever. So I just view Neverwinter as canon no matter what I see, hear, or do. In my mind Faerun and Forgotten Realms is faux D&D at best. So neverwinter is no worse than that.

<rant off>

There. I feel better for getting that off my chest. Ktynn for the win.

zebular · May 2015

angrysprite wrote: »

Necro'd thread. But since it was resurrected I just thought I'd chime-in on this aspect before it's locked;

No worries. We're quite lenient on the Necro rule in Moonstone Mask and Off Topic, as threads where-in tend to have a longer lasting relevance.

Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
[ RoC | ToS | Support ]

bioshrike · May 2015

Do the various D&D realms/dimensions exist within the same "multiverse"? Could one conceivably travel between these planes, or would it require the intervention of someone or something far more powerful than any "normal" person could muster? If such travel is possible, would the traveler run the risk of the rules in the destination dimension being different enough that they could get trapped, by virtue of their magic or other skills/gear no longer working or something similar?

sockmunkey · May 2015

Yes, all realms and worlds exist simultaneously in the D&D multiverse. This is why games like DDO, set in Eberron, can have links to adventures in the forgotten realms.

The Spelljammer setting basically acts as the glue that holds all these various worlds together. And as a viable means for characters to cross from Faerun to Krynn or to Eberron.

If you wish to travel between something a bit more metaphysical then separate worlds in the universe. There is the Planescape setting that ties all the various planes and dimensions together. Through Sigil nearly all places are possible.

anthornblue · May 2015

zebular wrote: »

(Snip). Even when a normal god "dies," they don't die. They are reformed in the Astral Sea and will come back in 100 years unless something finds and absorbs their Astral Form. Again, mortals perceive such as death. It is not. It is transferring of essence, which can be understanded better when one looks to how Corellon took Eilistraee into himself. (Snip).

This may seem like nit-picking - believe me, that is not me intent. I just found one bit of lore I had not found before and am curious.

Is there any specific source for the "100 year resurrection" thing as a hard fact? I am not doubting it, but it merely seems very odd. We have Murdane, Auppenser and Valigan (To name three from a single pantheon) dying and never coming back. In some of these cases, no other deity showed up with similar domains and portfolios, and no event occurred that would lead us to believe they were somehow 'eaten' by something else. We have the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons, most of whom died in various ways (In some cases in ways that don't seem conducive to being consumed by another entity), and that's without touching the vaguely-defined Yuir pantheon (That seems to have been wiped out entirely).

We also have Tu'narath (Implied to be Aoskar?) who doesn't seem like they're about to go anywhere, and nothing deity-level has been around them for at least the last century.

More significantly, there are the attempts by many gods to avoid death. Bhaal having his babies, Bane seeding Xvim, Mystra putting some of her power into Midnight before the ToT, the Sava game of the Dark Seldarine pantheon, so forth. These guys seem to be playing for keeps, and seem to be taking large steps to ensure they aren't killed off... which is odd if the only consequence of death for them is a 100-year healing coma.

Neverwinter Lore Vs forgotten realms Lore (Warning: This IS a Nurd post)

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