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Legit balance suggestions on TR balancing in future module
userutf8
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 270 Arc User
Hello, guys.
I have done some testing on my 11,5k TR in both PVP and PVE and it seems to me that TR is a little bit OP in the side of survivability at the moment. Please, consider this in new module 6, because if you add additional 10 paragon feat points, TR will be able to spec perma-stealth-executioneer with concussive strikes.:-)
Firstly, I'd like to say about Knife's Edge feat. I'm sure you might have heard that it's currently bugged.
Knife's Edge feat coupled with Bloodbath daily power allows to reduce cooldowns to zero during daily.
Also on some conditions after using Bloodbath I have full AP bar and can spawn daily again.
Secondly, I'd like to say about concussive strikes. Concussive strikes and Skullcracker allow TR to have 100% control while he's not in stealth, which being coupled with good damage makes TR a madness in PVP.
The last part is Impossible to Catch. ITC, being coupled with knife's edge, concussive strikes and skullcracker, allow TR to dominate in any 1 v 1 encounters.
My proposal is:
1. to completely remove concussive strikes or apply internal cooldown about 25 seconds to it.
2. I have the same proposal about skullcracker feat.
3. Fix Knife's edge, please.
4. Removal of control immunity from ITC is possibly a needed measure.
About damage and stealth bar on TR:
My proposal is to leave damage as it is with no changes to Shadow of Demise, etc. Same about stealth. Some people like to play perma-stealth TR and it needs skill (in general, not now).
High damage on TR is ok, even though some TRs can 1 or 2-shot you in PVP. As many people said, TR was intended to be a glass cannon. If you nerf TR's damage you will make it absolutely useless for PVE, while now TRs are valuable members of the party, if they know how to play the game.
Thanks for your attention, guys.
I have done some testing on my 11,5k TR in both PVP and PVE and it seems to me that TR is a little bit OP in the side of survivability at the moment. Please, consider this in new module 6, because if you add additional 10 paragon feat points, TR will be able to spec perma-stealth-executioneer with concussive strikes.:-)
Firstly, I'd like to say about Knife's Edge feat. I'm sure you might have heard that it's currently bugged.
Knife's Edge feat coupled with Bloodbath daily power allows to reduce cooldowns to zero during daily.
Also on some conditions after using Bloodbath I have full AP bar and can spawn daily again.
Secondly, I'd like to say about concussive strikes. Concussive strikes and Skullcracker allow TR to have 100% control while he's not in stealth, which being coupled with good damage makes TR a madness in PVP.
The last part is Impossible to Catch. ITC, being coupled with knife's edge, concussive strikes and skullcracker, allow TR to dominate in any 1 v 1 encounters.
My proposal is:
1. to completely remove concussive strikes or apply internal cooldown about 25 seconds to it.
2. I have the same proposal about skullcracker feat.
3. Fix Knife's edge, please.
4. Removal of control immunity from ITC is possibly a needed measure.
About damage and stealth bar on TR:
My proposal is to leave damage as it is with no changes to Shadow of Demise, etc. Same about stealth. Some people like to play perma-stealth TR and it needs skill (in general, not now).
High damage on TR is ok, even though some TRs can 1 or 2-shot you in PVP. As many people said, TR was intended to be a glass cannon. If you nerf TR's damage you will make it absolutely useless for PVE, while now TRs are valuable members of the party, if they know how to play the game.
Thanks for your attention, guys.
ABSOLUTE
Post edited by userutf8 on
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Comments
It's not just Bloodbath you can use 2x.
Yes, I am not a fan of cycling stealth+ITC and then have extremely high DPS to boot.
Stuns should have a longer internal cooldown.
I think it would be better to make it so all CCs make the target inmune to it for s short time after 2-3 times.
The issue is not that they are glass canon and that they can 2 shot you, the issue is that you cannot do anything to AVOID it.
Its 1 thing when your a GWF that is considered a glass canon but you have the ability to diminish though DR/tenacity etc its damage OR completely AVOID its damage via dodge etc.
A TR can lashing blade a SW/GWF or really anyone with having zero warning for 30k+ then SoD procs for another 15k without ANY ability to be mitigated.
A GWF has to run up to your face, mark you with threatening rush, then cross his fingers for a crit to MAYBE crit you for 25k if its not deflected.
A TR can also use SE which also bypasses all DR and again is an autolock on that crits for 30k+ consistently
These are the problems. "Glass canon" is just a very broad description which in no way addresses issues about the TR.
Its not made of glass when you can perma stealth/hide. Its not glass canon when you can make yourself immune to damage via ITC and its not glass canon when your untargetable and immune during blood bath.
A glass canon doesnt mean you can GET 2 shot because thats EVERY class. ANYONE can get two shot in todays game.
Who is the best class to contest a node 2v1? TR. TO me that means TR is the TANKIEST class that is also a Canon. YOu know what they call that? Not a glass canon.
What needs to happen to TR is this:
1) remove ALL piercing damage from the game. This affects HR piercing blades as well as SE/SoD/ and shadowy Opp
2) Lashing Blade got a massive buff when stealth granted 100% crit, lashing got an added 50% dmg buff in stealth. This needs to be dropped for a shorter CD instead. Something around 30% ish seems fair to me. This is actually a DPS BUFF except its less burst which is what makes it broken in PVP.
3) Stealth granting 100% crit needs to INSTEAD DOUBLE your crit chance. This makes it so a TR actually has to stack crit but is still a MASSIVE damage bonus. A TR with 25% crit shouldnt jump to 100% in stealth, but would now be at 50%. A TR with 50% STILL gets to have 100% crit.
4) Daze needs to respect tenacity and CC resist
I think overall that would balance the class well.
Sabos will deal less damage (Shadowy Opp) but will be more "tanky" in the sense they can stealth much better
Scoundrels can do their perma daze HAMSTER but it will atleast now respect tancity and CC resist - making that 4 seconds much more like 2 seconds meaning harder to "chain" it
Exec will still deal AMAZING damage but itll be more like a true "burst king" but itll be possible to live as a GWF/SW since LB got a nerf to burst and SoD is no longer piercing. (This turns that 30k Lashing down to about a 22-26k Lashing which then turns the previous 15k SoD unmitigated which would 1 shot you down to 13k pre-mitigation so about 7k actual damage.) This STILL means that LB+SOD combo would net you about 30k-35k in total damage. Still AMAZING damage but now would actually require you to do something else to finish them off, not just LB and run away for the kill.
Hey ther3n, sharp here
so many words, man:-)
" As many people said, TR was intended to be a glass cannon." that is what i said. I never said that TR is a glass cannon. And my proposal was to reduce TR's survivability. Care to read, man.
Mate, thanks for the feedback. Maybe you are right, but I assume that really not many people spec PVE TR as perma. People like to top charts, lol, and exec has advantage against perma exec there.
PS I wanted to record some vids of my TR in PVP and PVE as well, but I'm getting extreme lag, when doing it.
I have a fancy rig, just can't work out for the life of me how to get free recording software to work the way I want it to
So you think its OK for a TR to have the ability to ONE shot someone at full HP with NO way to avoid it?
This JUST happened to me in GG literally 10 minutes ago. We had 5 capped them, I was sitting under enemy spawn, TR cloaks (without my being able to see him) drops down and SEs me for MORE than my full HP (40,500 is my max HP) The only thing that saved me, which also proves I was full HP, was my THREE stacks of barkshield.
This is at FULL HP, and as a GWF I have ZERO way to avoid shocking, cant dodge with immunity frames, even if I sprinted you cant sprint fast enough out of range AND the added DR doesnt matter. TR has 100% crit chance in stealth so this is an on demand daily.
Also I didnt see any nerfs to survivability for TR because you didnt even address the real issues with the class.
1) Concussive strikes and Skullcracker -This only hurts the Scoundrel tree which most TRs are not scoundrel in pvp.
2) Fix Knife's edge - agree but this wont really change THAT much, itll just make it so you cant chain blood bath, which even if that were fixed TRs STILL wouldnt be near balanced at all.
3) remove CC immunity from ITC? ARe you kidding? Thats a horrible idea. If anything ITC should be cc immune but not damage immune, atleast that would make it harder to facetank. removing ITC CC immune is the only TR CC break, doing that would just kill the class.
The real issues are as I mentioned above and linked here.
1) They can 1 shot nearly on demand with SE which is just stupid with a DC artifact AND knife's edge - though most end up using BB for the contesting purposes.
2) 100% crit in stealth is stupid - allows you to stack full power.
3) SoD bypassing ALL DR making that Exec LB a 1 shot ability
4) Shadowy Opp hitting people for 2500 a pop. A Sabo can melt you HP in seconds with this.
PS. I really want to know why they are waiting so long with changes for TR, even simple fix like remove 2x DoTs would have a significant impact on the game becouse already 15k GS TR can shot to my 24+k GWF 20k+ lashing and second 20k from DoTs....this is most broken class in history of this game...
About 3-4 days of PVP domination pugging (10-12 hours), killing people, getting lots of double and sometimes tripple kills, trolling people, capping and holding nodes against 3 people of 4-8k more GS, killing people in open PVP (no stone, p.vorpal, etc) up to 20k GS and again trolling all that cannot be kiledl :-) Getting HAMSTER from tells, and getting feedback like "wow, that small TR just killed SW with full legendary" etc
Also we did CN run with my mate and guildie Sharpedge@thefabricant, 2TRs... he had 10k, I had 11k GS at that moment, we easily passed 3/4, failed draco, later Sharpedge@thefabricant alone brought draco to ~1/4 health on his TR. There's a post on this forum with his spec and that screenshot. I have his spec with only difference that I invested in Knife's Edge.
That all you may take into consideration, assuming that I'm a nub TR, that I couldn't kill exp GWF 20+k, and I haven't played TR for at least 6 months and my LB crits for 16k only (I don't use 1st strike and don't have p.vorpal) and also I try to avoid using ITC.
About ITC. I very rarely used it in PVP... only if both my team and enemy team was op, and i needed not to get 1-shoted and still help my team to win. If you run exec spec (even perma) and don't use ITC it does require some skill, but still provides too high output.
Probably more than the amount of actual premades you've done
1. I'm definitely not kidding about ITC. :-) CC break? Yes, you got me right, this CC break is the reason of style 1-shot/avoid all damage/go to stealth/1-shot/... And nerfing this CC break will solve 1/2 problems connected to TR in PVP.
Do HR, DC, CW have CC break? I mean not interrupting your opponent, i mean pure cc break, like "go unstoppable, avoid roots", or "use ITC, avoid icy rays".
2. You are complaining about GWF dodge-mechanic, not TR dps here.:p I play HR and have 5 dodges and fox. I avoid shocking execution almost always, by dodging it, when i hear the sound. Same for LB, when I hear steps behind, I dodge
But I remember one TR as well who took my 44k HP (before regearing and respec) in 1 shot by LB. So what? I'm ok with that, I should have been more cautious.:-)
3. You don't make any reasonable proposal here. You only say what is bad. I have seen dozens of posts like yours on forum. I recommend chilling a bit and looking at this http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?796441-The-difference-between-legit-balance-suggestions-and-quot-nerf-buff-quot-posts . If you strongly disagree with me, just make a better and more constructive proposal and post it here or start your own topic.
Tell my, my friend, for what should we do any propositions if Cryptic have got all of this proposition deep in the....you know where :P And all constructive propositions from players are just ignored and they do what they like?
They win and its GG. We can back and forth about legit balance changes etc. But this needs to be hotfixed yesterday.
Going in to another module with morale this low about one of my favorite aspects of this game is not appealing.
I think the devs should have a more open communication. Do we even know what their thoughts are? Is TR balanced? Is it imbalanced? Why is it balanced? Why haven't you done anything with it if it is imbalanced? Ignoring the playerbase and feedback on preview is a poor way to run an MMO.
2. Remove all piercing Damage,
3 and fix Knife's Edge. Remove double proocing from Sod.
4. Make concussive strike a slow. or whatever.
5. Shocking E is dodgeable, just like ice knife, (not for gwf and sw, but both need some buff anyway. - for example, give sprint deflect chance and severity instead of damage reduction, or DR + deflect chance + severity), and SE should be capped at half hp max damage as suggested. - Or it wouldnt be a problem, if it wouldnt bypass Damage resist and tenacity.
6. 100% Crit chance should stay, at least for pve. For pvp it can be +30-50% bonus, but no need to change it for pve.
I play TR (and the other classes as well). But oneshotting and trolling people simply not fun for me, skills should be rewarded, not broken mechanicks.
I dont like the "cap" idea. There are alot of liabilities there I wont go into, point being that is not the problem and essentially your doing the same thing as just nerfing it, just having it in a much more convoluted way.
Remove piercing - yes
Shocking - again it bypasses all deflect and severity so that wont make a difference. If you make SE obey all types of DR then you wont have issues of SE 1 shotting people. It would get toned down to the 20k level which IMO is reasonable (from 40k).
a cw hit me 44k damage...
a gwf hit us all 38k damage area...
a gf hit me 36k damage
a tr hit me 32k damage
a dc hit me dot 33k damage
any questions?
all you people saying you made a tr to test... troll somewhere else...
some cw said tr is king pve..
cw can sit in the center of 100+ monsters and win without stealth.. so whats your point?
gwf can do the same...
other classes as well.
stop trying to nerf tr and just stick to your classes.
you wouuld actually play better if you learned how to win instead of copy catting the class and play styles that killed u...
Lol. 5/10 too obvious.
What he said
I feel the same way
This guy always posting as if there is nothing wrong with TR opness, wath a joke
Yes, I said TR is the king in PVE. Why, because I can do the same stuff on my 9k TR as on my 17k CW in this game's dungeons, the only real difference being the size of the orange flashy numbers and the number of them there are. I know exactly how to play my characters, I can definitely pull off draco solo on my CW and got 3/4 of the way to pulling it off with my TR. The big difference is, my CW is grossly over geared for a dungeon like CN and my TR isn't even wearing a T2 set. Can my CW run door to door, aggro all the mobs and kill them solo? Yes. Can I do the same on my tr with 10k gs and r5 enchants? Yes. The thing is, I am not against TR being as effective in PVE as CW is, what I am against is the situation whereby the TR has the ability to build a character with god levels of survivability.
I'm sorry. But this is just wrong. It's not relevant. I am a TR. I've always been a TR. The TR is rididulously OP right now ... in PVP. I repeat ... in PVP. They dominate every match. A 13K TR can lay waste to every other class including other TRs up to 19 - 20K GS. Look at the leaderboard. Look at the line up when you PVP ... I have not been in a match without 4 TRs this whole mod. It does not take any skill to diferentiate yourself as a TR. I don't know what the exact answers are .. I am not savvy enough to figure it out. But I do know that just like every mod before this one .... think GWF, CW, HR ... this has been a screw up. PVP is screwed. It's not fun. Right now the TR is the problem. Next mod it will be another class. The devs are inept at balance in PVP and I do not believe they even care about it. PVE is quite balanced right now and they did well bringing the TR back to par with other classes. PVP at the moment is an abonmination ... that's why que times are long and matchups suck. You heard it here ... from a TR ... this sucks ... its not fun ... its not balanced . End of story ... flame away if you want.
+1! Ho yeah please lord!
Currently, our balance discussions are focused around passive stats, such as "class A does B damage with power C, so lower C by D%" type of balancing methods... etc etc..
But the problem is this is merely tweaking a solid, set stat up or down, and hoping it is sufficient for all situations -- when in fact, in reality, in actual combat, it is those different situations that gives different meaning to how the set stats are applied... therefore, in reality, the relative efficiency of the class changes every moment, and usually the classes that can force upon the opponent a favorable situation more often and easily, is viewed as a strong, or sometimes OP class.
What I have come to realize, sirs, is that we treat balance as a solid set of unchanging numbers, but actual combat is about how the situations surrounding those numbers change all the time. It is then I realized why these clashes and debates, furious emotions do not cease between TRs and other classes.
Frankly at this point, I'd rather suggest the devs to come up with a sort of "Advanced Combat" system that applies to every class to introduce a decisively human factor -- a skill factor that is more centered on the control of the flowing "situation" of combat, rather than being dependent on a set of numbers and trying to up/down those numbers in hopes that we achieve a 'perfect' number' that satisfies everyone.
What I mean by this, sirs, is that for example, the ever notorious Stealth. Just how much stealth is "good" for both the TR and its opponents? Will tweaking it up/down by seconds make any changes? Will all classes feel good with it? I don't imagine so. Stealth is in the end, either "now you see me" or "now you don't". The TR can't be a Schroedinger's cat (Cheshire Cat??
...instead of these 'numbers based' balancing, I imagine that the implementation of decisive skill factors, would both add depth to the game as well as clear the board of these very primal level of OP discussions.
Sirs, take for example... what if a simple but effective "charge" or "channel" mechanic was added into extremely powers like SE or LB or Ice Knife, IBS, etc etc..?
Imagine something like this -- as a rule, all of these defining, strong powers requiring a full charge of varying degrees, depicting the amount of concentration required for a focused hit or "spellcasting". All powers can be now activated on the move, no self rooting. However when charging, you move at a slower speed. A "tap" of the power will hit for much smaller amount, but would come out immediately and have a proportionately shorter recharge time. A "full charge" of the power will require you to somehow come up with your own method of hitting enemies on the move, but when it does land, will be just as powerful as now and go into a full-length recharge. SE is now changed into a true melee power that needs melee range to land.
Powers like CCs of all classes would work under the same principle -- the base CC duration will all be increased much longer, but it would require a full charge up, or full 'spell casting' to reach its full potential. When you are in a hurry, an immediate "tap" will bring out a very short effect of 1s or less... but it would be nifty as an "interrupt" type of power. On the other hand, if you want the full CC, daze combos and durations, then you want to risk a longer, full charge to activate. You all remember how difficult it was to use Dazing Strike before its lightning speed change. That small delay in time made the power so difficult to land. It required anticipation, timing, and a bit of brain work. What if ALL powers were like that for all classes?
What if there were no simple "1~2 click fire-and-forget powers/combos" that could burn off 70~80% of HP with just a simple Q, E, R press? What if each and every combos and attacks were to be a result of careful timing?
What about defenses? What if the fighters receive a "timed block" mechanic to be used with their powers to prone, instead of just giving them all the 1-click prone attacks? What if the GF had a "timed block" mechanism that will activate when he times an incoming attack at the right visual queue, which will block 100% of the damage, and then within 2 seconds lands a counter after the block, it prones?
What if GWFs had a "parry" or "riposte" type of encounter which, when used at the right timing will retaliate and prone? This power can be used while in CC as well, and a successful riposte will break you free from CCs... against a ranged attack, a successful riposte will parry the damage and immediately close you in like threatening rush..
etc etc.. sirs, these are all ideas, but I'm thinking a scenario where all the cool and strong powers of the classes are left as they are as currently in game -- but with a condition that requires human input to achieve full potential, and not a result of simple 1-click, or given a universality that is useful everytime.
You all remember how in the last mod, nobody really ever thought back on powers like Dazing Strike, because it was so rare to be used, as it actually required skill to land it. What happens if all the LBs and SEs need that much charge up time to realize its full damage? What if this is not just imposed on the TRs only, but becomes a universal effect upon all characters as a rule, that "exceptionally useful or powerful skills need that much player input/skill"?
From that point on I'd tend to think that the "OP" discussions might die out, since it really becomes then a matter of how you can use the power with ingenuity.