[Combat (Self)] random TR deals 10526 Physical Damage to you with Shadow of Demise.
Clearly it was much needed to weaken the GWF here in mod6, by nerfing regen and life steal. Sometimes the passive of the TR was needing to proc twice to kill a GWF
So here's a 13k drow sab with 22 CHA, 20 DEX, 21 CON, 17 STR, grim scoundrel's set, blue constitution belt and the 2 deflection boons and 38% deflection(not a single bonus from feats or enchants). As you see roughly 40% deflection without any sacrifice to HP and only out-of-stealth dmg has been sacrificed if u will, 8% at best, but a sab can live without it. Add the 3% deflection from Lucky skirmisher and scoundrel's potential 22.5% and you are at 63.5%(of which 53.5% is pretty much constant while that 10% kicks in when -30% hp) without even trying.
If anyone should have higher deflection chance is the sprinting classes since sprint is simply an inferior defensive mechanism to dodging which puts gwf, but especially sw at a disvantage. Thus giving the stealth class 4 dodges, itc and such deflection means giving it too much defenses(tr does get hit you know). The fact that tr has the luxury to start the fight with a crit vs an unaware target alone would require a serious toning down of its defenses to keep the class balanced. Instead tr atm has both best offense and defence. Itc as it is HAS to go.
Perma-daze and balance inside the same sentence? Perma-stealth and 1 shotting is op while perma-daze is legit(none of them is)? Nerf sab which is the only class/paragon that can beat my scoundrel, is that what you are saying? To even get into killing those statements would be as cheap as dazing ppl to death so ill abstain. And on top of all accusing others of hypocrisy... You are biased, sir. I do well-intently advise a bit of fresh air.
So here's a 13k drow sab with 22 CHA, 20 DEX, 21 CON, 17 STR, grim scoundrel's set, blue constitution belt and the 2 deflection boons and 38% deflection(not a single bonus from feats or enchants). As you see roughly 40% deflection without any sacrifice to HP and only out-of-stealth dmg has been sacrificed if u will, 8% at best, but a sab can live without it. Add the 3% deflection from Lucky skirmisher and scoundrel's potential 22.5% and you are at 63.5%(of which 53.5% is pretty much constant while that 10% kicks in when -30% hp) without even trying.
You'll see if that "53.5% is pretty much constant" when you try it. The way Scoundrels operate, the +10% deflection bonus of Mocking Knave is seriously lackluster. In my case I just dump it.
It's one of those things the layman may think is all cool and useful, but when you really get to know it and how things work out, realize that it's a mcguffin. Mocking Knave is one of those feats that come into effect when you don't need it, and then goes away at the moment you do need it.
You'll understand what this means if you're a Scoundrel. But you are not.
If anyone should have higher deflection chance is the sprinting classes since sprint is simply an inferior defensive mechanism to dodging which puts gwf, but especially sw at a disvantage. Thus giving the stealth class 4 dodges, itc and such deflection means giving it too much defenses(tr does get hit you know). The fact that tr has the luxury to start the fight with a crit vs an unaware target alone would require a serious toning down of its defenses to keep the class balanced. Instead tr atm has both best offense and defence. Itc as it is HAS to go.
Personally I don't mind if ITC goes, since I myself have been living without it for more than a year.
Perma-daze and balance inside the same sentence? Perma-stealth and 1 shotting is op while perma-daze is legit(none of them is)? Nerf sab which is the only class/paragon that can beat my scoundrel, is that what you are saying? To even get into killing those statements would be as cheap as dazing ppl to death so ill abstain. And on top of all accusing others of hypocrisy... You are biased, sir. I do well-intently advise a bit of fresh air.
1. No such thing as permadaze (...unless the target is one of those 20k GS guys with only 25k HP)
2. I've got no problems with Sabs or Execs, since I'm rather well experienced in hunting down other TRs. Rather, it is other classes that seem to have more problems with specifically MI Execs and Sabos.
3. I can very well repeat the comment that, "anyone who suggests the need for a TR nerf, but stays silent to the abnormal AP-gain issues, is a hypocrite", thank you.
Yes, TRs had problems from the start of mod5. At that point, they were hard to fight against, but not this level of 'hard to kill'. Then came crollax's video of 2vs1 against BiS fighters (and killing them both while confined to a single node), and soon afterwards the proliferation of AP-associated items began.
At this point, the TR reached a whole level of "OP". All classes are now spamming their dailies. A TR can now spam stuff like BB at a rate of once per every three rotations of stealth, and this abnormality is what lets even mediocre TRs survive and land kills easily against opponent's they would otherwise never beat without those artifacts. This is what needs to be nerfed the first, and with most immediate urgency.
To deny this, and stay silent to the AP issues because one fears one might lose their own ability to spam dailies? "I'm not gonna say anything about this because I like spamming my dailies as well"? -- If this isn't hypocrisy, I don't what is, sir.
I am in total agreement that the AP gain has to be addressed and addressed first. If it increases much faster one will be able to use dailies more frequently than some encounters.
I don't mind the cloaks though. Everyone can use them fairly equally as far as I can tell. I believe Knife's Edge is fine. I think if the source of the TRs problems are fixed, this feat ceases to be an issue. I can't stress strongly enough, how badly we need piercing damage to go away.
cloak is stronger than dc sigil, also some classes can stay 100% in combat while others do not and dailies are not at the same power level for all (tr/cw and pve SW do make a better use of them while GF/GWF/HR less )
cloak is stronger than dc sigil, also some classes can stay 100% in combat while others do not and dailies are not at the same power level for all (tr/cw and pve SW do make a better use of them while GF/GWF/HR less )
I agree. Cloaks are stronger in effect.
Sigil of the Devoted is more of a nuisance and irritation, but the AP cloaks are AP-gains fast enough to count in dailies as a regular part of your combat rotation. A person with just the Sigil is much less threatening than a person with only the cloak, and those who have both are literally unkillable/uncatchable if its a TR.
In many cases a TR vs TR fight doesn't bring out immediate results, and its more like the winning side gradually pushes the other into a progressively worsening situation. Of course, when the AP cloak and Sigil comes into play, nobody can push any TR into a corner.
I simply believe that everyone can use them equally. If you are talking straight proliferation of AP gain I understand the point. I just think a lot of people who already had their normal artifacts ranked up are less likely to invest in another artifact. The cloaks, in my opinion, just kind of fell into everybody's lap where as you actually need to have a cleric at level 60 and have done the leg work to get the Sigil
Friend morenthar, it is my view that currently, whether be it TRs or not, the AP cloak is simply inexcusable.
I confess as to having tried it myself for a time, and then soon was pretty much too embarrassed to use it anymore. It is so powerful as to be degrading, in a sense. In terms of statistics my average kills during PvP fights have more than doubled, while deaths have withered down to effectively zero -- and that's without even using Sigil of the Devoted.
Like friend clonky has mentioned (and as you probably already know), the cloak will constantly give you 4% AP per every 3 seconds. In 75 seconds, even if you do nothing but keep only your combat state going (by occasionaly throwing one CoS every 6~7 seconds), it will give you a chance to fire off a daily. If you are actively attacking, this automatic AP gain is enough for you to allow around one daily use per every three stealth rotations, which equates to about once every 30 seconds.
You're a TR as I am, so you know that the number of attacks we make while in stealth, is greatly lesser than that we used to in prior mods. Before mod5 people would practically hold the CoS button down and throw zillion knives. Nowadays, in my case maybe I attack at most 3 or 4 times while in stealth. That means as the price of all these goodies we got for mod5, our AP generation was going to be at an all-time-low, hence my guess is that the devs probably thought it would be okay to leave our dailies as it is, make SE into a 1-shot move, and even leave the KE feat alone at let it reset all our encounters. They probably thought our AP generation was so low that it'd only be at certain special, rare moments that we'd be able to use dailies like that.
But then, they brought in the AP cloaks...
When other classes are complaining about TR dailies, they are right. We shouldn't be able to use broken OP BB like that, nor should we be able to get our hands on SE almost on demand like that. NO CLASS should be able to use dailies like that, and the AP cloak is making that happen.
It needs to go. Unless this abnormal AP gain is squashed in PvP, every other player looks at us TRs as if they're seeing a monster, and frankly, with the AP gear, we ARE monsters.
AP cloak have 0 thing to do with TR's OP, at best it just a tool. TR became OP in PVP right after v5 appear while what 5 people had their cloak. the possibility to get cloak cheaper only start after tiamat arrive and mostly take 3 week min for people since also requiring off hand.
Actually only the sabo get a real benefit from the cloak, perma daze scoundrel less care due to huge amount of time they daze. and supress cloack would solve a thing. no i would even say in a sense it would become worst. Why because on opposite side when you are in steath other class canno't also gain AP without cloak. And with for example with CW'S case it probably our only chance to kill rogue.
The more i think about it the more i think in a sence your point as nothing to do with balance but to cut the little only possibility for other to fight back. Simply because most other class mechanism need to attack to gain ap point and of course you canno't attack what you canno't see
Sirs, if to simply state what "legit balancing" needs to be done to TRs, I would specifically ask the devs for the following changes to be made:
1. Abnormal AP gain issues
Sigil of the Divine: upon activation it now increases your AP gain by 25/50/75/100% for 15 seconds (double AP gain per attack at legendary rank)
Very much agree here. This would make other artifacts of value again, currently its DC or GTFO. I have like 3 orange DC artis across my characters because what else is there?!
AP cloaks: these items now increase your passive AP gain by 2/3/4/5%
I dont know about this one... The cloaks for AP gain are up against the +8AC cloaks which at ~4% more DR. What I think the DEVs forgot is that you stay in combat for 8 seconds after being struck meaning these AP cloaks build ALOT of AP. It would be better just to tune them back or nerf them:
Green: 1% AP every 3 seconds -> 1% AP every 4 seconds
Blue: 2% AP every 3 seconds -> 1% AP every 3 seconds
Purple: 3% AP every 3 seconds -> 2% every 4 seconds
Orange: 4% every 3 seconds -> 2% every 3 seconds.
2. General changes to TRs
Common Encounters and Features
Shadow Strike: the daze from stealthed use is now revoked back to 2 seconds
Agreed
Daze inducing powers now respect the effects of tenacity and CC resistances
Agreed
Lashing Blade: inherent 50% crit severity increase from stealthed use is now reduced to 25%
I thought it was increased damage, not severity. Either way, Id MUCH rather see the stealth bonus reduce the CD of Lashing blade by ~35% rather than bonus damage. Especially with your SoD change. Itll be overall more DPS but less burst which is part of the problem in PVP atm. A BIS TR lashing blade should crit around the 25k range with perfect vorpal. This is more than MOST players max HP. Exec TRs get a nice dmg boost to low HP targets so this creates a 1-2 punch with SE pretty easily STILL.
First Strike: is now further reduced from 30/45/60% to 20/35/50%
Fine by me, seems this feat is a little more useless now with combat being 8 seconds.
Impossible to Catch: now offers 100% increase of your base deflection chance upon normal use, rather than guaranteed 100% deflection. From stealthed use, the deflection chance increase is set to 100%. Damage resitance removed. CC immunity applies the same
So to understand this, ITC only doubles your deflection chance outside stealth, inside stealth it could *triple* your deflect chance (basically any TR worth his stripes will have 30%deflect). DR removed so its basically an equiv of a "GF block" meaning damage will STILL get through.
Shocking Execution: damage reduced by 20%
I think all that needs to happen here is CHANGE this attack from bypassing ALL DR to attack with 100% armor Pen. This brings things like deflect and tenacity back into the fold which will reduce its overall damage. Again you could still 1-2 punch someone with Lashing SE. Damage is fine, as long as Tenacity and deflect can actually come into play here.
Saboteuers
Knife's Edge: recharge reduction reduced from 3/6/9/12/15% to 2/4/6/8/10%
Knife's Edge: now applies to only first hit to each different target in area
Would the combo of these over-nerf the AP gain? Im fine with the recharge reduction as is, but if it only works off the FIRST hit on each target that should be enough of a nerf.
Shadowy Opportunity: now applies as 10/15/20/25/30% damage of the source power
Again, all you need to do here is change it so "piercing damage" JUST means "attacks with 100% ARP" because now you brought tenacity into the fold that reduces both damage and crit damage along with deflect as well. Should be enough to balance this.
Scoundrels
Concussive Strikes: daze duration reduced from 2.5 to 2 seconds, internal cooldown increased from 5 to 6
Agreed.
Executioner
Shadow of Demise: 20% faster stealth regeneration now removed
Shadow of Demise: entire feat redesigned. SoD now applies "marked for death" debuff upon the target with the use of encounter attacks for 10 seconds. Targets with the mark will receive 20% higher damage from all sources, the effects of healing are reduced to half, movement speed and stamina regeneration is slowed by 20%.
I really like this idea honestly. Damage boost, less healing and less movement speed. PERFECT! Now that Lashingblade has its damage brought up a bit from the previous damage nerf, it will still crit hard AND applies some pretty painful debuffs...
The only other thing I would propose is that Stealth no longer grants 100% crit but gives you DOUBLE your crit chance in stealth.
The same way ITC would be doubling your deflect, should be the same idea with stealth. No longer guaranteed crit, but DOUBLING crit means that TRs now need to go back to stacking both deflect and crit. Doing so is at the loss of HP or Power just like every other class.
In PVE this will make very little difference considering most TRs in PVE can get 50%+ crit chance. For PVP, since abilities like SE and Shadowy Opp now ALSO factor in tenacity and deflect it means no more 100% crit that bypass all DR. Itll be more like 80% crit with a chance to be deflected AND mitigated a portion by tenacity
i agree, they should buff TRs, a kill command should do and let the one with the better ping win, i know is only a minor improvement of what is atm but my brain fails at finding a better one.
Wrong: TR-class is not broken just due AP artifact gaining, which is a problem too, but due class mechanics themselves. If the "only" problem were the AP gaining... "we", i think, even can bear it due CW-class has a feat which makes the CW-char gain 5% per crit each 10 secs + other stats which make this an "insane" AP gaining way. But, the problem, is what that AP gives to TR-class: A Daily which bypass everything and, if it is casted on low-health targets, it gives you another cast. 8 hits which pierces a lot and make a lot of damage with total invulneravility and so on.
...just how many times do I have to explain to you that I'm not saying "we only need the AP items fixed and its fine"? I'm saying "the AP items are the cause of the largest TR OP issues right now, so let's fix this most obviously broken thing first, and then see if further nerfs are necessary".
AP cloak have 0 thing to do with TR's OP, at best it just a tool. TR became OP in PVP right after v5 appear while what 5 people had their cloak. the possibility to get cloak cheaper only start after tiamat arrive and mostly take 3 week min for people since also requiring off hand.
Beginning of mod5;
Execs didn't have the souped-up
"double-tap" SE yet
The SoD bug was not known to the masses, SoD itself was moving back and forth as devs tried to 'fix' it
Scoundrels remained unpopular (up to this date its numbers have not changed much)
Sabos immediately caught everyone's attention, the Sabos during this time were the "old-school" types using GC as their main at-will, fighting as a true melee style close quarters, with usual choices of encounters focused on restealthing more easily (Impact Shot)
At the beginning of mod5, the immediate and only threat was considered to be the Sabos, with people complaining permastealth became even easier. Executioners that were playing legit and not abusing the "SoD build-up" bug were considered to be not much more than 1-trick ponies with amusing big hits but not much else, and were usually hunted down and dispatched of easily. Scoundrels were too rare to be known about what they could really do
The only changes between then and now is that we actually got an "attempted" nerf (2 second revelation), the MIs received the "double-tap", massively buffed up SE plus a few tweaks to SoD, and of course, with the arrival of Tiamat, AP cloaks were made available.
Some TRs were OP at the beginning of mod5, you got that right. Now, in this present date, ALL TRs are OP. Guess why.
Actually only the sabo get a real benefit from the cloak, perma daze scoundrel less care due to huge amount of time they daze. and supress cloack would solve a thing. no i would even say in a sense it would become worst. Why because on opposite side when you are in steath other class canno't also gain AP without cloak. And with for example with CW'S case it probably our only chance to kill rogue.
Scoundrels actually have the most to benefit from AP cloaks since it compensates for every single bit of its weaknesses. Whereas an AP cloak makes an alreay OP Sabo and Exec more OP, for Scoundrels it pushes a build with distinct weaknesses into ascension to OP-hood by getting rid of all those weaknesses. Who has more to gain here?
I could list the specific reasons if you wish it so.
The more i think about it the more i think in a sence your point as nothing to do with balance but to cut the little only possibility for other to fight back. Simply because most other class mechanism need to attack to gain ap point and of course you canno't attack what you canno't see
Friend sygfried, I do not understand how putting a stop to the most broken, unbalanced, OP mechanic in the history of TRs -- even more so than the notorious "old-style permastealth" -- is cutting back the possibility for others to fight back.
Do you have more to lose by going back to the lengthy daily use intervals that used to be in prior mods? Or do us TRs have more to lose by not being able to BB/SE every 30 seconds to outright kill, daze, buy time, recharge all encounters to spam ITC and smokebomb?
The only other thing I would propose is that Stealth no longer grants 100% crit but gives you DOUBLE your crit chance in stealth.
The same way ITC would be doubling your deflect, should be the same idea with stealth. No longer guaranteed crit, but DOUBLING crit means that TRs now need to go back to stacking both deflect and crit. Doing so is at the loss of HP or Power just like every other class.
No objections, here.
In PVE this will make very little difference considering most TRs in PVE can get 50%+ crit chance. For PVP, since abilities like SE and Shadowy Opp now ALSO factor in tenacity and deflect it means no more 100% crit that bypass all DR. Itll be more like 80% crit with a chance to be deflected AND mitigated a portion by tenacity
AP cloak have 0 thing to do with TR's OP, at best it just a tool. TR became OP in PVP right after v5 appear while what 5 people had their cloak. the possibility to get cloak cheaper only start after tiamat arrive and mostly take 3 week min for people since also requiring off hand.
Actually only the sabo get a real benefit from the cloak, perma daze scoundrel less care due to huge amount of time they daze. and supress cloack would solve a thing. no i would even say in a sense it would become worst. Why because on opposite side when you are in steath other class canno't also gain AP without cloak. And with for example with CW'S case it probably our only chance to kill rogue.
Are you serious, or maybe u never did try AP cloaks. But let me tell u something, Tiamat artifact =ca.450 AP gain. Offhand=380 ap gain. 50 AP gain on cloak/rings/belt as reinforge + feats and at the end SIGIL OF STUPID DC, makes trs impossible to touch/see/hit, why ? cause they can spam bloodbath like hell, all they need is stealth to gain more and more AP, and u will only see FLash of Bloodbath and thats it. And you said AP cloak got 0 on TRs opness? go Home u are drunk!
BTW all kind of TR builds with that amount of AP gain is SUPER deadly, cause FREE DAILIES IN SHORT PERIODE = OOOOOO PEEEE
Best way to nerf a tr is to nerf its AP gain from Artifact/cloak/reinfoge during pvp, it needs to go less than half. Otherwise A Tr = 4 man of enemy team now watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz5wvBn-Xwg
Legit balance suggestions on TR? Hmm... Make all TR's damage as DoT damage?
From what I've read players want to nerf TRs in general due to PvP imbalance. Okay, I'm not that familiar with PvP despite having more than 100 matches on record, but description of abusing strategies depicts rather grim pictures about TR DPS. Yet there is still a gap between capabilities of fresh 60 lvl TR and TR with 78 Power Point ans full Legendary Equipment.
But let me say something about survivability in PvE (even thou no one cares). In another tread someone said that Rogue with permastealth build makes defender classes useless. And when I reminded that Defender role is to protect other party members, while Rouge can't protect anyone beside himself, it turned out that this idea is a bit unintuitive. Also I want humbly remind you that stealth mechanic has been already nerfed by draining upon delivering damage and it's bloody impossible to regain stealth normally when your surrounded by swarm of enemies. I understand that some people upset with surviving capabilities of Rogue, because no other class can solo dungeons. But how Rogue gameplay should look like then? Rogue hasn't enough Defence and AC, unlike GF/GWF. Rogue has to go in melee to deal serious damage, unlike HR. Rogue hasn't any AoE/Control Encounters aside from Smoke Bomb, unlike CW/SW.
As Whisperknife I use only my At-Wills to deal damage. I never used any gimmicky abused tactics from PvP and I have to use Smoke Bomb recently after I was kicked multiple times from dungeons being "useless DPSer". I built my toon around stealth, so I can raise my fallen teammates and maintain mini-boss health upon their returning from bonfire. Yes, I can kill Spellplague Cavers boss or Castle Never boss solo, but it would take me like 3-4 hours and smallest mistake will kill me instantly. So, I wonder how "proper Rogue" should behave? Can we have a thread or at least several posts about "How TR should be played" instead of lots of "How TR should be nerfed".
If someone thinks that I'm defending TRs in this post, then you are wrong - I'm complete indifferent to any DPS problems and anything that unrelated to stealth. As long Whisperknife's At-Will deals that amount of damage (even it's only half in PvP) I will be fine.
Are you serious, or maybe u never did try AP cloaks. But let me tell u something, Tiamat artifact =ca.450 AP gain. Offhand=380 ap gain. 50 AP gain on cloak/rings/belt as reinforge + feats and at the end SIGIL OF STUPID DC, makes trs impossible to touch/see/hit, why ? cause they can spam bloodbath like hell, all they need is stealth to gain more and more AP, and u will only see FLash of Bloodbath and thats it. And you said AP cloak got 0 on TRs opness? go Home u are drunk!
BTW all kind of TR builds with that amount of AP gain is SUPER deadly, cause FREE DAILIES IN SHORT PERIODE = OOOOOO PEEEE
Best way to nerf a tr is to nerf its AP gain from Artifact/cloak/reinfoge during pvp, it needs to go less than half. Otherwise A Tr = 4 man of enemy team now watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz5wvBn-Xwg
Your completely out on this one TR problem is Daze effects, Impossible to catch. Simply cut IPTC 50% and Daze effects 75% and will be near balance after will see what is left to be tweak.
And seems like you have a low/bad comprenhension on english: AP gaining is a problem, yes, but not the "obvious one". Why? because TR-chars without the cloack/sigil, can still do a carnage. That means, basically, the OPness on TR-class is on another direction, even if the AP gaining is a problem too.
Before the cloak/sigil combos, the only real carnage TR were Sabos. Ask any TR of your peer, anyone who you would trust or respect enough to give objective information and ask what premade-level TRs were using at that time, and the answer you get is Sabos. Ask him about what percentage of such players were using other builds like Scoundrels or Execs, and the answer you will get it "not bloddy many".
So what changed over the course of these past few months? The answer is obvious, is it not?
But man, you can still think that i have a bias towards you because you are a TR-player if you want and it that makes you happy, instead of thinking "wow, maybe, he is right and it is me that i do not know how to play TR-class correctly/propperly" while i will keep showing you your own mistakes and bias.
I would actually welcome any chance to get better information, tips and pointers from anyone that is able to engage in an intelligent and well-mannered discussion. Unfortunately, I see neither of those with any of your input, so I'll pass. Thanks, but no thanks.
Your completely out on this one TR problem is Daze effects, Impossible to catch. Simply cut IPTC 50% and Daze effects 75% and will be near balance after will see what is left to be tweak.
Seriously I must ask, would that be near balance for the community as a whole, or near balance for your personal tastes?
...
In my case, I don't have ITC to use, so conversely, when I myself become a target of other Scoundrel TRs it often poses a serious threat, that's for sure.
So, if I'm the one being hit with the daze first, then according to your theory I should have zero chance of escaping and simply should be dying on the spot since it's "permadaze"... they say dazes aren't effected by tenacity or deflect, so no matter how much I deflect I'm still dazed the same, and I would not be able to escape.
...but in reality, I do escape a lot, because;
(a) there is no such thing as permadaze
(b) Oghma's token helps a lot in tight spots
were is that op daze, op daily one shot ,were is 1v2 kills were is 20k gc at will 50k se ,double proc executioner
were is it ?
nanners maybe top 3 tr in the game
his 1v1 with cw
exactly 3 min fight
took 3 min to bring that cw down in 1v1
if he was fighting any tr except very few he make a kill under 1 min
Seriously I must ask, would that be near balance for the community as a whole, or near balance for your personal tastes?
...
In my case, I don't have ITC to use, so conversely, when I myself become a target of other Scoundrel TRs it often poses a serious threat, that's for sure.
So, if I'm the one being hit with the daze first, then according to your theory I should have zero chance of escaping and simply should be dying on the spot since it's "permadaze"... they say dazes aren't effected by tenacity or deflect, so no matter how much I deflect I'm still dazed the same, and I would not be able to escape.
...but in reality, I do escape a lot, because;
(a) there is no such thing as permadaze
(b) Oghma's token helps a lot in tight spots
It helps.
Who talks permadaze (but that can happened also). I wrote about daze abilities and Impossible to catch.
Cut IPTC 50% and Daze effects 75% and they won’t be as much AP because Trs will have to go stealth or evade much more then always DPS while building AP and regaining HP with life steel as it is right now.
So the result will be that TRs fights will be more about DPS and also not to be killed instead of always DPS punching bags while note in danger of repercussion most of the time.
were is that op daze, op daily one shot ,were is 1v2 kills were is 20k gc at will 50k se ,double proc executioner
were is it ?
nanners maybe top 3 tr in the game
his 1v1 with cw
exactly 3 min fight
took 3 min to bring that cw down in 1v1
if he was fighting any tr except very few he make a kill under 1 min
A good 21k plus Tr is near impossible to be killed by a CW or even any other class.
I've seen all classes fell against a good 21k plus TR. I never saw anyone able to beat them more then maybe 1 out of 10 fights.
Show me anyone, because what you are saying is not right.
Who talks permadaze (but that can happened also). I wrote about daze abilities and Impossible to catch.
Cut IPTC 50% and Daze effects 75% and they won’t be as much AP because Trs will have to go stealth or evade much more then always DPS while building AP and regaining HP with life steel as it is right now.
So the result will be that TRs fights will be more about DPS and also not to be killed instead of always DPS punching bags while note in danger of repercussion most of the time.
Let me first clarify that personally, as a long time TR player myself, I do agree that our current ITC may be a bit too much. However, like so very often, your suggested "solutions" easily run past the lines of adequacy and simply enters a territory which would not just "make it hard", but totally destroy a class from functioning at all.
At this point I am quite very certain you have never played a TR, and your knowledge about the TR is limited to mere impressions focused on results, without actual understanding about how multiple mechanics work out in a complex manner. So, in a manner which you, as a known CW player might understand, a 2.5 second ITC and a 1 second Daze would about have the effect of reducing your tab-Shield DR down to 5% mitigation and removing roots from Ray of Frost and merely making it a slow that lasts 1 second.
As much, I get the distinct feeling the "figures" you have written down here are simply based on what kind numbers you find it adequate for you to be not bothered by TRs at all and simply kill them on sight to your heart's content -- ergo, you have no problems if ITC lasts only 2.5 so you can squash any TR with your own version of "ITC" and "Daze" by simply absorbing huge amounts of damage with your shield, and then never giving a chance for the TR to attempt attacking you again, by keeping him in a cycle of frozen to stunned to rooted, rinse and repeat, until he dies on the spot without ever touching you again after his initial opening attack.
A more appropriate insight into ITC would easily have revealed the "problem" which is;
(1) it is a CC-breaker
(2) ...on top of being a timed CC-immunity
(3) ...on top of being an auto-deflection (which equates to basically +75% DR)
(4) ...which has a recharge short enough to fit in almost every stealth rotation
Removing one of two points would more than suffice, for example:
(1) leave it as CC breaker with CC-immunity time on short recharge, but remove the auto-deflection
TR retains the ability to ensure freedom of movement, but it will still receive normal damage
(2) leave it as a CC breaker with even shorter recharge, but remove CC immunity and auto-deflection
TR will be able to break CCs even more frequently, but for one time only, so the TR will be vulnerable to multiple CC attempts, or will face severe consequences if he uses it on the wrong timing
(3) leave it as CC immunity, but not a CC breaker, and keep the auto-deflection on short rechagre
ITC turns into more of a pre-emptive buff, in which case TRs will more often be compelled to use it before hand, in which he has no guarantee the enemy may or may not use CC at the moment, so the reliability of the power drops
(4) remove both the CC break and CC immunity, but leave the auto-deflection on with a short recharge, with a bit longer duration
ITC turns into a pure defense buff which greatly enhances DR, but it will not break one free from CCs and thus every CC is still guaranteed at least a half-duration
(5) leave everything as it is, but increase the recharge
ITC remains just as powerful, but the TR will not be able to simply count it in all his every stealth rotation, so roughly around every two or three stealth rotations, a moment of vulnerability will come
...etc etc... and any of the above suggestions would even work better with;
(1) the removal of abnormal AP gains for all classes
(2) toning down the severity of deflect=CC resistance mechanics
(3) rebalancing certain broken TR path/builds
...and help go a long way to bringing back us TRs into balance without simply cutting off our balls and castrating us for personal satisfaction of the vengeful mob.
...
Otherwise, if you wish to continue down your current habit of making suggestions with an ulterior motive to blast the class into kingdom come so every TR you meet drops dead in front of you (which, I have no doubt, you think is the result that SHOULD be happening in your mind, judging by your self-evaluation and self-esteem as a CW, as seen in many of your posts), then I think it would actually be faster and more likely to happen if you simply suggest NW removes the TR class from its roster totally.
Comments
Clearly it was much needed to weaken the GWF here in mod6, by nerfing regen and life steal. Sometimes the passive of the TR was needing to proc twice to kill a GWF
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So here's a 13k drow sab with 22 CHA, 20 DEX, 21 CON, 17 STR, grim scoundrel's set, blue constitution belt and the 2 deflection boons and 38% deflection(not a single bonus from feats or enchants). As you see roughly 40% deflection without any sacrifice to HP and only out-of-stealth dmg has been sacrificed if u will, 8% at best, but a sab can live without it. Add the 3% deflection from Lucky skirmisher and scoundrel's potential 22.5% and you are at 63.5%(of which 53.5% is pretty much constant while that 10% kicks in when -30% hp) without even trying.
If anyone should have higher deflection chance is the sprinting classes since sprint is simply an inferior defensive mechanism to dodging which puts gwf, but especially sw at a disvantage. Thus giving the stealth class 4 dodges, itc and such deflection means giving it too much defenses(tr does get hit you know). The fact that tr has the luxury to start the fight with a crit vs an unaware target alone would require a serious toning down of its defenses to keep the class balanced. Instead tr atm has both best offense and defence. Itc as it is HAS to go.
Perma-daze and balance inside the same sentence? Perma-stealth and 1 shotting is op while perma-daze is legit(none of them is)? Nerf sab which is the only class/paragon that can beat my scoundrel, is that what you are saying? To even get into killing those statements would be as cheap as dazing ppl to death so ill abstain. And on top of all accusing others of hypocrisy... You are biased, sir. I do well-intently advise a bit of fresh air.
You'll see if that "53.5% is pretty much constant" when you try it. The way Scoundrels operate, the +10% deflection bonus of Mocking Knave is seriously lackluster. In my case I just dump it.
It's one of those things the layman may think is all cool and useful, but when you really get to know it and how things work out, realize that it's a mcguffin. Mocking Knave is one of those feats that come into effect when you don't need it, and then goes away at the moment you do need it.
You'll understand what this means if you're a Scoundrel. But you are not.
Personally I don't mind if ITC goes, since I myself have been living without it for more than a year.
1. No such thing as permadaze (...unless the target is one of those 20k GS guys with only 25k HP)
2. I've got no problems with Sabs or Execs, since I'm rather well experienced in hunting down other TRs. Rather, it is other classes that seem to have more problems with specifically MI Execs and Sabos.
3. I can very well repeat the comment that, "anyone who suggests the need for a TR nerf, but stays silent to the abnormal AP-gain issues, is a hypocrite", thank you.
Yes, TRs had problems from the start of mod5. At that point, they were hard to fight against, but not this level of 'hard to kill'. Then came crollax's video of 2vs1 against BiS fighters (and killing them both while confined to a single node), and soon afterwards the proliferation of AP-associated items began.
At this point, the TR reached a whole level of "OP". All classes are now spamming their dailies. A TR can now spam stuff like BB at a rate of once per every three rotations of stealth, and this abnormality is what lets even mediocre TRs survive and land kills easily against opponent's they would otherwise never beat without those artifacts. This is what needs to be nerfed the first, and with most immediate urgency.
To deny this, and stay silent to the AP issues because one fears one might lose their own ability to spam dailies? "I'm not gonna say anything about this because I like spamming my dailies as well"? -- If this isn't hypocrisy, I don't what is, sir.
cloak is stronger than dc sigil, also some classes can stay 100% in combat while others do not and dailies are not at the same power level for all (tr/cw and pve SW do make a better use of them while GF/GWF/HR less )
I agree. Cloaks are stronger in effect.
Sigil of the Devoted is more of a nuisance and irritation, but the AP cloaks are AP-gains fast enough to count in dailies as a regular part of your combat rotation. A person with just the Sigil is much less threatening than a person with only the cloak, and those who have both are literally unkillable/uncatchable if its a TR.
In many cases a TR vs TR fight doesn't bring out immediate results, and its more like the winning side gradually pushes the other into a progressively worsening situation. Of course, when the AP cloak and Sigil comes into play, nobody can push any TR into a corner.
Friend morenthar, it is my view that currently, whether be it TRs or not, the AP cloak is simply inexcusable.
I confess as to having tried it myself for a time, and then soon was pretty much too embarrassed to use it anymore. It is so powerful as to be degrading, in a sense. In terms of statistics my average kills during PvP fights have more than doubled, while deaths have withered down to effectively zero -- and that's without even using Sigil of the Devoted.
Like friend clonky has mentioned (and as you probably already know), the cloak will constantly give you 4% AP per every 3 seconds. In 75 seconds, even if you do nothing but keep only your combat state going (by occasionaly throwing one CoS every 6~7 seconds), it will give you a chance to fire off a daily. If you are actively attacking, this automatic AP gain is enough for you to allow around one daily use per every three stealth rotations, which equates to about once every 30 seconds.
You're a TR as I am, so you know that the number of attacks we make while in stealth, is greatly lesser than that we used to in prior mods. Before mod5 people would practically hold the CoS button down and throw zillion knives. Nowadays, in my case maybe I attack at most 3 or 4 times while in stealth. That means as the price of all these goodies we got for mod5, our AP generation was going to be at an all-time-low, hence my guess is that the devs probably thought it would be okay to leave our dailies as it is, make SE into a 1-shot move, and even leave the KE feat alone at let it reset all our encounters. They probably thought our AP generation was so low that it'd only be at certain special, rare moments that we'd be able to use dailies like that.
But then, they brought in the AP cloaks...
When other classes are complaining about TR dailies, they are right. We shouldn't be able to use broken OP BB like that, nor should we be able to get our hands on SE almost on demand like that. NO CLASS should be able to use dailies like that, and the AP cloak is making that happen.
It needs to go. Unless this abnormal AP gain is squashed in PvP, every other player looks at us TRs as if they're seeing a monster, and frankly, with the AP gear, we ARE monsters.
Actually only the sabo get a real benefit from the cloak, perma daze scoundrel less care due to huge amount of time they daze. and supress cloack would solve a thing. no i would even say in a sense it would become worst. Why because on opposite side when you are in steath other class canno't also gain AP without cloak. And with for example with CW'S case it probably our only chance to kill rogue.
The more i think about it the more i think in a sence your point as nothing to do with balance but to cut the little only possibility for other to fight back. Simply because most other class mechanism need to attack to gain ap point and of course you canno't attack what you canno't see
The only other thing I would propose is that Stealth no longer grants 100% crit but gives you DOUBLE your crit chance in stealth.
The same way ITC would be doubling your deflect, should be the same idea with stealth. No longer guaranteed crit, but DOUBLING crit means that TRs now need to go back to stacking both deflect and crit. Doing so is at the loss of HP or Power just like every other class.
In PVE this will make very little difference considering most TRs in PVE can get 50%+ crit chance. For PVP, since abilities like SE and Shadowy Opp now ALSO factor in tenacity and deflect it means no more 100% crit that bypass all DR. Itll be more like 80% crit with a chance to be deflected AND mitigated a portion by tenacity
JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASS.
i agree, they should buff TRs, a kill command should do and let the one with the better ping win, i know is only a minor improvement of what is atm but my brain fails at finding a better one.
wake up dude, almost everyone left the pvp ....
...just how many times do I have to explain to you that I'm not saying "we only need the AP items fixed and its fine"? I'm saying "the AP items are the cause of the largest TR OP issues right now, so let's fix this most obviously broken thing first, and then see if further nerfs are necessary".
Beginning of mod5;
Execs didn't have the souped-up
"double-tap" SE yetThe SoD bug was not known to the masses, SoD itself was moving back and forth as devs tried to 'fix' it
Scoundrels remained unpopular (up to this date its numbers have not changed much)
Sabos immediately caught everyone's attention, the Sabos during this time were the "old-school" types using GC as their main at-will, fighting as a true melee style close quarters, with usual choices of encounters focused on restealthing more easily (Impact Shot)
At the beginning of mod5, the immediate and only threat was considered to be the Sabos, with people complaining permastealth became even easier. Executioners that were playing legit and not abusing the "SoD build-up" bug were considered to be not much more than 1-trick ponies with amusing big hits but not much else, and were usually hunted down and dispatched of easily. Scoundrels were too rare to be known about what they could really do
The only changes between then and now is that we actually got an "attempted" nerf (2 second revelation), the MIs received the "double-tap", massively buffed up SE plus a few tweaks to SoD, and of course, with the arrival of Tiamat, AP cloaks were made available.
Some TRs were OP at the beginning of mod5, you got that right. Now, in this present date, ALL TRs are OP. Guess why.
Scoundrels actually have the most to benefit from AP cloaks since it compensates for every single bit of its weaknesses. Whereas an AP cloak makes an alreay OP Sabo and Exec more OP, for Scoundrels it pushes a build with distinct weaknesses into ascension to OP-hood by getting rid of all those weaknesses. Who has more to gain here?
I could list the specific reasons if you wish it so.
Friend sygfried, I do not understand how putting a stop to the most broken, unbalanced, OP mechanic in the history of TRs -- even more so than the notorious "old-style permastealth" -- is cutting back the possibility for others to fight back.
Do you have more to lose by going back to the lengthy daily use intervals that used to be in prior mods? Or do us TRs have more to lose by not being able to BB/SE every 30 seconds to outright kill, daze, buy time, recharge all encounters to spam ITC and smokebomb?
No objections, here.
I agree.
Agreed, and willing.
BTW all kind of TR builds with that amount of AP gain is SUPER deadly, cause FREE DAILIES IN SHORT PERIODE = OOOOOO PEEEE
Best way to nerf a tr is to nerf its AP gain from Artifact/cloak/reinfoge during pvp, it needs to go less than half. Otherwise A Tr = 4 man of enemy team now watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz5wvBn-Xwg
From what I've read players want to nerf TRs in general due to PvP imbalance. Okay, I'm not that familiar with PvP despite having more than 100 matches on record, but description of abusing strategies depicts rather grim pictures about TR DPS. Yet there is still a gap between capabilities of fresh 60 lvl TR and TR with 78 Power Point ans full Legendary Equipment.
But let me say something about survivability in PvE (even thou no one cares). In another tread someone said that Rogue with permastealth build makes defender classes useless. And when I reminded that Defender role is to protect other party members, while Rouge can't protect anyone beside himself, it turned out that this idea is a bit unintuitive. Also I want humbly remind you that stealth mechanic has been already nerfed by draining upon delivering damage and it's bloody impossible to regain stealth normally when your surrounded by swarm of enemies. I understand that some people upset with surviving capabilities of Rogue, because no other class can solo dungeons. But how Rogue gameplay should look like then? Rogue hasn't enough Defence and AC, unlike GF/GWF. Rogue has to go in melee to deal serious damage, unlike HR. Rogue hasn't any AoE/Control Encounters aside from Smoke Bomb, unlike CW/SW.
As Whisperknife I use only my At-Wills to deal damage. I never used any gimmicky abused tactics from PvP and I have to use Smoke Bomb recently after I was kicked multiple times from dungeons being "useless DPSer". I built my toon around stealth, so I can raise my fallen teammates and maintain mini-boss health upon their returning from bonfire. Yes, I can kill Spellplague Cavers boss or Castle Never boss solo, but it would take me like 3-4 hours and smallest mistake will kill me instantly. So, I wonder how "proper Rogue" should behave? Can we have a thread or at least several posts about "How TR should be played" instead of lots of "How TR should be nerfed".
If someone thinks that I'm defending TRs in this post, then you are wrong - I'm complete indifferent to any DPS problems and anything that unrelated to stealth. As long Whisperknife's At-Will deals that amount of damage (even it's only half in PvP) I will be fine.
Your completely out on this one TR problem is Daze effects, Impossible to catch. Simply cut IPTC 50% and Daze effects 75% and will be near balance after will see what is left to be tweak.
Before the cloak/sigil combos, the only real carnage TR were Sabos. Ask any TR of your peer, anyone who you would trust or respect enough to give objective information and ask what premade-level TRs were using at that time, and the answer you get is Sabos. Ask him about what percentage of such players were using other builds like Scoundrels or Execs, and the answer you will get it "not bloddy many".
So what changed over the course of these past few months? The answer is obvious, is it not?
I would actually welcome any chance to get better information, tips and pointers from anyone that is able to engage in an intelligent and well-mannered discussion. Unfortunately, I see neither of those with any of your input, so I'll pass. Thanks, but no thanks.
Seriously I must ask, would that be near balance for the community as a whole, or near balance for your personal tastes?
...
In my case, I don't have ITC to use, so conversely, when I myself become a target of other Scoundrel TRs it often poses a serious threat, that's for sure.
So, if I'm the one being hit with the daze first, then according to your theory I should have zero chance of escaping and simply should be dying on the spot since it's "permadaze"... they say dazes aren't effected by tenacity or deflect, so no matter how much I deflect I'm still dazed the same, and I would not be able to escape.
...but in reality, I do escape a lot, because;
(a) there is no such thing as permadaze
(b) Oghma's token helps a lot in tight spots
It helps.
were is it ?
nanners maybe top 3 tr in the game
his 1v1 with cw
exactly 3 min fight
took 3 min to bring that cw down in 1v1
if he was fighting any tr except very few he make a kill under 1 min
Who talks permadaze (but that can happened also). I wrote about daze abilities and Impossible to catch.
Cut IPTC 50% and Daze effects 75% and they won’t be as much AP because Trs will have to go stealth or evade much more then always DPS while building AP and regaining HP with life steel as it is right now.
So the result will be that TRs fights will be more about DPS and also not to be killed instead of always DPS punching bags while note in danger of repercussion most of the time.
A good 21k plus Tr is near impossible to be killed by a CW or even any other class.
I've seen all classes fell against a good 21k plus TR. I never saw anyone able to beat them more then maybe 1 out of 10 fights.
Show me anyone, because what you are saying is not right.
Let me first clarify that personally, as a long time TR player myself, I do agree that our current ITC may be a bit too much. However, like so very often, your suggested "solutions" easily run past the lines of adequacy and simply enters a territory which would not just "make it hard", but totally destroy a class from functioning at all.
At this point I am quite very certain you have never played a TR, and your knowledge about the TR is limited to mere impressions focused on results, without actual understanding about how multiple mechanics work out in a complex manner. So, in a manner which you, as a known CW player might understand, a 2.5 second ITC and a 1 second Daze would about have the effect of reducing your tab-Shield DR down to 5% mitigation and removing roots from Ray of Frost and merely making it a slow that lasts 1 second.
As much, I get the distinct feeling the "figures" you have written down here are simply based on what kind numbers you find it adequate for you to be not bothered by TRs at all and simply kill them on sight to your heart's content -- ergo, you have no problems if ITC lasts only 2.5 so you can squash any TR with your own version of "ITC" and "Daze" by simply absorbing huge amounts of damage with your shield, and then never giving a chance for the TR to attempt attacking you again, by keeping him in a cycle of frozen to stunned to rooted, rinse and repeat, until he dies on the spot without ever touching you again after his initial opening attack.
A more appropriate insight into ITC would easily have revealed the "problem" which is;
(1) it is a CC-breaker
(2) ...on top of being a timed CC-immunity
(3) ...on top of being an auto-deflection (which equates to basically +75% DR)
(4) ...which has a recharge short enough to fit in almost every stealth rotation
Removing one of two points would more than suffice, for example:
(1) leave it as CC breaker with CC-immunity time on short recharge, but remove the auto-deflection
TR retains the ability to ensure freedom of movement, but it will still receive normal damage
(2) leave it as a CC breaker with even shorter recharge, but remove CC immunity and auto-deflection
TR will be able to break CCs even more frequently, but for one time only, so the TR will be vulnerable to multiple CC attempts, or will face severe consequences if he uses it on the wrong timing
(3) leave it as CC immunity, but not a CC breaker, and keep the auto-deflection on short rechagre
ITC turns into more of a pre-emptive buff, in which case TRs will more often be compelled to use it before hand, in which he has no guarantee the enemy may or may not use CC at the moment, so the reliability of the power drops
(4) remove both the CC break and CC immunity, but leave the auto-deflection on with a short recharge, with a bit longer duration
ITC turns into a pure defense buff which greatly enhances DR, but it will not break one free from CCs and thus every CC is still guaranteed at least a half-duration
(5) leave everything as it is, but increase the recharge
ITC remains just as powerful, but the TR will not be able to simply count it in all his every stealth rotation, so roughly around every two or three stealth rotations, a moment of vulnerability will come
...etc etc... and any of the above suggestions would even work better with;
(1) the removal of abnormal AP gains for all classes
(2) toning down the severity of deflect=CC resistance mechanics
(3) rebalancing certain broken TR path/builds
...and help go a long way to bringing back us TRs into balance without simply cutting off our balls and castrating us for personal satisfaction of the vengeful mob.
...
Otherwise, if you wish to continue down your current habit of making suggestions with an ulterior motive to blast the class into kingdom come so every TR you meet drops dead in front of you (which, I have no doubt, you think is the result that SHOULD be happening in your mind, judging by your self-evaluation and self-esteem as a CW, as seen in many of your posts), then I think it would actually be faster and more likely to happen if you simply suggest NW removes the TR class from its roster totally.
Cheerio, jarecsteph