Well sir I been around since beta sir and been playing gf gwf hr dc and sw in that order sir.
If you sir would have played every module you sir would have indeed notice that even in its prime was there regularly 4 gwf in a match sure it happend but it was nothing common.
Now good sir 9 out of 10 dominations contains 4 tr I been in plenty with 5 also lately and the only time we saw anything even near this sir was before module 2 and the nerfing of the Tr class that was done back then.
And even so neither warlock or hr was around and only 5 classes existed back then.
And yet with 2 more classes good Sir Tr is still more dominant then any other class has been before so yes as I been pvping regularly since beta I know this for a fact.
Good sir if you have any daubts feel free to ask around from those that seen beta and to this days pvp am sure they are willing to enlighten you sir..
Then it seems it is simply a matter of your word against mine, good sir, unless you can present actual demographic information.
Hence I'll just repeat my opinion on this matter and move on, sir.
What you have mentioned may be true - that even in mod2, sometimes there were many GWFs in a match and some times not. But if that is true, then I also believe the same may hold true for TRs in this mod as well, but for some reason you see differently.
I do not understand what your 'beta' experience is of any relevance, but again, the way I remember my start of NW from mod2, there were always anywhere between 2~4 TRs in a game, almost never more than that, and almost never less, sir.
I don't see any reason, or proof, to suggest that there's a sudden surge of certain player characters, sir, and I doubt you'll be able to prove it.
Sir, I believe I've made it clear that not many TRs really advocate that kind of thing as being normal. Like every other players, the TR players are not of a singular hive-mind. Rather, many decent players have different views on the current situation, and many of them are of the same opinion that do not wish to be viewed as those who defend stuff like 30k lashing blades with a double proc of 15k SoD bug, or stuff like easy-mode insta-refill of AP with the DC artifact and then bam! a First-Strike assisted Shocking Execution that hits for 56k.
Bugs need to be fixed, over-kill 1-shot attacks due to poor design choices need to be rolled back. Not many contest this.
But rather, the TR players are more and more being forced into the corner with hatred and prejudice that does not differentiate between legitimate, constructive criticism of things that need duly be nerfed, and the brutal "nerf, kill, destroy everything I hate about TRs" sentiment.
We'd really like to form a consensus so these 'overkill stuff' can be fixed ASAP, but when some players view this as a chance to simply take away EVERYTHING from the TRs that makes us TRs, then many TRs feel so threatened as to have no choice -- we have to be defensive as a whole.
All I am asking is take it, let's take it step by step.
Let's first form a consensus on the most immediate, broken stuff like (1) double-proc SoD bugs, (2) easy-fill AP artifacts and (3) its synergy with super-deadly dailies like BB or SE, (4) and another synergy with these super-deadly dailies PLUS Executioner builds.
...and then, when people are a bit calmed down, we can discuss further fixes if necessary. Too many people are on edge, with their views on TRs muddied and bloodied by these broken stuff, sir.
...and basically everything you've stated refers back to these 1-shot Executioner builds.
Sir, I'd like to remind you that when stuff first came out, it was a group of us decent TRs who were the very first to point out to the developers that Sabo builds or Executioner builds need a fix.
If only people would stop antagonizing us TRs as a whole, and demand nerfs to every part of us as a whole. I sincerely wish people to calm down, and start talking about stuff based on actual figures, facts, and etc.. and when it comes to facts, us TRs -- many of us -- agree that 40~50k attacks that just snuff out even GFs or GWFs with 1-shot attacks... aren't right.
Fair enough.
I'm not advocating a destroy the class nerf. I'm advocating a reduction in the 100% stealth crit (or a change), a fixing of Shadow of Demise so it does not multi-proc you to death when it shouldn't and a halving of those dazes against players.
The reason for our anger and frustration is that in every match you are now facing at least 2 TRs that are making a mockery of PVP and we know a large number of the players benefiting are not skilled players but are exploiting broken/over-powered feats and powers.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Mr rock, meet mr paper. You have described rock paper scissors class balance in this game, perfectly.
TR does not need to be burned to the ground as a class, GF needs to be made stronger. I can hit a cw with what normally would result in a 40k+ crit, and because of shield, the attack does no damage and I get cc'd into oblivion (paper meet scissors). That should be the issue, that the tankiest class in the game is so easily wiped out by the same exact attack that one of the squishiest classes in the game simply shrugs off.
The CW is the only class that can survive a one-shot and that is because it has an equally ridiculous power. Your point?
GWFs, GFs and DCs, by design the tankiest classes in the game, are eviscerated by TRs 4 - 6k below them. How do you stop these OP tank DCs? Send a TR. How do you force a KV GF out of the game? Send a TR. How do you get rid of that Sentinel? Send a TR.
Seriously, the sentinel DC is probably the second most troublesome class in PVP and the TR can burst it in a few hits as well.
How can you not see the problem here?
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I'm not advocating a destroy the class nerf. I'm advocating a reduction in the 100% stealth crit (or a change), a fixing of Shadow of Demise so it does not multi-proc you to death when it shouldn't and a halving of those dazes against players.
The reason for our anger and frustration is that in every match you are now facing at least 2 TRs that are making a mockery of PVP and we know a large number of the players benefiting are not skilled players but are exploiting broken/over-powered feats and powers.
Thanks for taking the time to read everything carefully, sir.
Well, I'm a bit bored of PvE so I started to play PvP again but now with my SW trying to get him to 30/30 too, I like the fact that most people consider the SW to be the worst character for PvP atm and I tried to make him as tanky as possible, most players expect that it's going to be a free kill for them so I give them a surprise, anyway, I'm not here to complain nor argue against TRs about their mechanics, I just wanted to share something funny:
Scenario: Domination, my SW with 50k HP vs this TR with 17k using GVorpal (not even Perfect and no legendary items).
It was 1v1, my HP was full and he just used his SE on me, crit 44k + 6s later 50% of that dmg. Press Tab for Stealth - Daily Button - Win. It must be really boring to be a TR imo.
lol it is me u painted but i can still see my name
I agree all u say, i started game as a GF and in pvp i was shocked when i was 1 hit by TRs i m playing MMOs for nearly 10 years and never met smth like this i played WOW for 3 years and even the best toon there cannot 1 shot anyone maybe 4 or 5 but noone can 1 shot
it just bored me a lot. I luv the game and didn't wanna quit so i made a TR and now i m killing %80 of players by 1shot. And it is kinda boring and nonsense thing is even 9k TR can 1shot nearly half of the players.
Then it seems it is simply a matter of your word against mine, good sir, unless you can present actual demographic information.
Hence I'll just repeat my opinion on this matter and move on, sir.
What you have mentioned may be true - that even in mod2, sometimes there were many GWFs in a match and some times not. But if that is true, then I also believe the same may hold true for TRs in this mod as well, but for some reason you see differently.
I do not understand what your 'beta' experience is of any relevance, but again, the way I remember my start of NW from mod2, there were always anywhere between 2~4 TRs in a game, almost never more than that, and almost never less, sir.
I don't see any reason, or proof, to suggest that there's a sudden surge of certain player characters, sir, and I doubt you'll be able to prove it.
Well good sir the *beta* experiance just showes that i been around longer then you have and that my experiance of the game goes back a bit further then yours sir.
And no it has not always been 2-4 Trs in the game mostly before module 5 it was 2 tr in the games and good sir if it was a time where it was 6-7!!(that imho is somewhat wrong number) gwf in the game it falls rather on its own that it also was common with 2-4 tr in game dont you think good sir.
That you sir see no reason or proof is rather beside the point as the reason is obvious to all playing pvp and the proof lays there in good sir.
If you sir even cant see the reason for why its has become that 4 trs are in every match and that the couse of it is that tr has become OP your own argument to why it was 6-7 in your words gwfs before falls rather short sir.
Now the niffy part of this is that proving anything to you is not an issue good sir because I am confident that weather you good sir shoose to disput the fact that the tr has grown more common in pvp as an effect of their buffs that reality speaks for itself to all that dont play tr.
I just think it is an issue of scale. The class is op but not the zomg op that many people think it is. When the panic starts in the crowd and everyone is like "omg tr godmode" whether or not it is true, a ton of people are going to start playing "godmode".
Maby not as OP as people think depends on a scale somewhat but it dont change the fact or reason to why alot more trs are seen in pvp today then ever before.
Lets at least admit that when 1 class out of 7 stands for 40% of the pvps population something is out of balance even if we have to consider other aspects of the game and why you pvp at all.
In every game that contains pvp there is always some class that is more popular in pvp but to this extent hardly...
The CW is the only class that can survive a one-shot and that is because it has an equally ridiculous power. Your point?
GWFs, GFs and DCs, by design the tankiest classes in the game, are eviscerated by TRs 4 - 6k below them. How do you stop these OP tank DCs? Send a TR. How do you force a KV GF out of the game? Send a TR. How do you get rid of that Sentinel? Send a TR.
Not just any TR but a scoundral, a one shot artist is not effective, a perma stealth rogue is not effective, only the dazes. But it is an interesting point because it makes me think (again) that the three branches of tr are each viable and each very different.
Seriously, the sentinel DC is probably the second most troublesome class in PVP and the TR can burst it in a few hits as well.
How can you not see the problem here?
sentinel dc?
There was a time when GF was a true monster with an amazing armor set (stalwart), an aoe high damage prone (that the class really needs given its slow movement and inability to dodge), and a really nice capstone (reckless, providing massive power). The problem is not op TR's, the problem is nerfed GF's. Your "sentinel dc" slip I think was a Freudian slip, the intact IV sent gwf was a beast, it got nerfed as well. No one but sw's would be complaining right now if these classes didn't all get nerfed in the past. In fact, the tr buff would have just brought it up to speed with the others.
There was a time when GF was a true monster with an amazing armor set (stalwart), an aoe high damage prone (that the class really needs given its slow movement and inability to dodge), and a really nice capstone (reckless, providing massive power). The problem is not op TR's, the problem is nerfed GF's. Your "sentinel dc" slip I think was a Freudian slip, the intact IV sent gwf was a beast, it got nerfed as well. No one but sw's would be complaining right now if these classes didn't all get nerfed in the past. In fact, the tr buff would have just brought it up to speed with the others
Even if you have some merit to this I highly daubt that keeping what was broken for other classes would have improved the experiance in pvp for those that take part.
Keeping gf capstone with current power creep would indeed made them a true slaughter machine, keeping gwfs bleed, roar, knock downs would have made them and equal pain, hr would still heal damage in seconds while cws would melt anything while being cced.
The current Trs are broken i so many ways described through an almost endless stream of threads by both high end as well as newcombers both trs and mostly ofc non trs.
I highly daubt that keeping the other classes at their hight instead of bringing tr somewhat in line would make pvp more playable or more balanced.
IF cryptic follow their useal strategy Tr will be brought in line and you better work for that with all you have instead of trying to defend what is clearly broken if you want to avoid the HUGE nerfhammer other classes has when it happend to them.
I am sure that with some tweaks here and there you can keep Tr valid in pve as well making them more balanced in pvp and i hate to see something that hurts Tr class in pve as they should not suffer from what goes in pvp imho.
Most of 20k+ TRs now use Bloodbath rather than SE because BB gives you a long invincibility as well as decent dps. It is equally op as SE. Not to mention they spam it every 15~20 secs.
If the rogue has the correct feats, BB also resets the rogues encounter timers....
Actually there were mostly 2 TRs on every team before mod3.
But since this forum has more 24k GS and beta players than the game itself - ah, nevermind 'bout that.
And yet some say that its was a time where 6-7 gwf was common not to mention the hight of Hrs when there was 5 Hrs in every game did all the other classes vanish somewhere along the line ...
There has never been so many Trs in matches as there are now it happend from time to time that some matches contained 4 trs but now it more common to see 5 Trs then it was to see 4 before module 5 well at least near it.
When Tr was perma builds troll node holders you mostly had 2 in each match even if 3 wasent that uncommon but say that the Tr population always been the same is far from the truth.
In every class raise to the power due to buff it becomes more common its a fact and that fact support that Tr is more common now then before not to mention that we have 1 new class sw and dc that that has become far more seen since it been buffed.
In total other classes should be seen less since sw and dc appeared more often but to the contrary Tr is even more common.
And the comment about 24k gs beta players is just plain beside the point and just and invalid argument trying to dimish what has been said by using the old trick of creating invalidity to the ones arguing against your agenda, wont work.....
There has never been so many Trs in matches as there are now it happend from time to time that some matches contained 4 trs but now it more common to see 5 Trs then it was to see 4 before module 5 well at least near it.
Sir, I don't know if that is happening in the very high-end premade scene, but if it is, then it is a matter of intentional team composition since premades are... well... premade. It could be said that many premade teams now view TR as a more important asset so they are bringing in more TRs into the party of five, but I doubt this could be considered representative of the entire PvP scene.
In the normal PvP scene, be it various PuG domination matches or GG, there's nothing 'different' I see in the numbers, sir. Sometimes it's only me on my team while the other guys have two, sometimes we have two and the other guys have one, other times both our teams have two, some times there's only me on my team (although admittedly this one is very, very rare to happen). These varying results have repeated in the past as well, and having been a TR through the tougher days of mod3 and mod4, I can guarantee you, sir, that I've been watching and observing TRs in the matches, because knowing how these TRs are geared and how many are on each team, effect the outcome of the game. The brief wait before the match begins I'd start opening character sheets for every blue, pointy, class-icon I can see on the player list.
...and I don't think I'm opening up more sheets than I used to in mod2, 3, or 4, sir.
In every class raise to the power due to buff it becomes more common its a fact and that fact support that Tr is more common now then before not to mention that we have 1 new class sw and dc that that has become far more seen since it been buffed.
In total other classes should be seen less since sw and dc appeared more often but to the contrary Tr is even more common.
And the comment about 24k gs beta players is just plain beside the point and just and invalid argument trying to dimish what has been said by using the old trick of creating invalidity to the ones arguing against your agenda, wont work.....
Sir, there are so many other factors you are simply ignoring to press this argument, which IMO, seems very weak and shaky.
My guess, sir, is that in the bigger demographics there are probably more TRs than before, but I don't think its 'showing' in player numbers in the matches in the way you have proposed. More likely, my opinion is that this might be a case of selective memory, sir.
When one takes a special interest in something, the human mind tends to remember only those specially interesting to oneself, and just forget about all the other, mundane, normal cases. I'm not saying this is what you are doing, sir, so please do not be offended. All I am saying is that just relying on one's own memory/perception on how may TRs are in a match, might not be the best way to try and convince people that the TRs are massively OP.
when I first came to this game after experience with games like WoW, Aion and GW I've thought that game designer must have smoken something really strong while drowing Rogue char.
Point 1: hitting while in stealth... this is incredibly wrong, no massively games in the world till neverwinter permits this. But still I thought they must have some kind of weakenss.
Wrong.
They have the best defensive skill (after stealth OC), their shift ability is the best in the game, evade all (and seems to last some second after the animation too)
They have the best CC skills of the game (even better then CW)
They have the best AOE skills of the game
They have the dadlyest DOT of the game (Warlock you say?... pfff...)
Plus, the great designers didn't give the ability to see stealthed to at least one class (usually rangers in every other MMORPG).
No wonder there are more then 200 Rogues in the first 500 position of the PVP charts. Every game is a matter of which group has the best 2/3 rogues.
Just a frustrating game. The answer is, leave this until is fixed.
Even if you have some merit to this I highly daubt that keeping what was broken for other classes would have improved the experiance in pvp for those that take part.
Keeping gf capstone with current power creep would indeed made them a true slaughter machine, keeping gwfs bleed, roar, knock downs would have made them and equal pain, hr would still heal damage in seconds while cws would melt anything while being cced.
The current Trs are broken i so many ways described through an almost endless stream of threads by both high end as well as newcombers both trs and mostly ofc non trs.
I highly daubt that keeping the other classes at their hight instead of bringing tr somewhat in line would make pvp more playable or more balanced.
IF cryptic follow their useal strategy Tr will be brought in line and you better work for that with all you have instead of trying to defend what is clearly broken if you want to avoid the HUGE nerfhammer other classes has when it happend to them.
I am sure that with some tweaks here and there you can keep Tr valid in pve as well making them more balanced in pvp and i hate to see something that hurts Tr class in pve as they should not suffer from what goes in pvp imho.
To be honest I have 60's in every class but dc and sw, they come off the shelf when it doesn't suck to play them anymore. The game it's self is a mess well beyond tr's.
Not just any TR but a scoundral, a one shot artist is not effective, a perma stealth rogue is not effective, only the dazes. But it is an interesting point because it makes me think (again) that the three branches of tr are each viable and each very different.
Believe me, it is the one-shot artists that are wrecking my GF and GWF. Far more numerous than the Scoundrel. I'm being 1 or 2 shotted to death far more often than dazed to death. The DCs I see dropping on the node are taking huge spike hits, telling me Executioners are lurking in the shadows.
sentinel dc?
There was a time when GF was a true monster with an amazing armor set (stalwart), an aoe high damage prone (that the class really needs given its slow movement and inability to dodge), and a really nice capstone (reckless, providing massive power). The problem is not op TR's, the problem is nerfed GF's. Your "sentinel dc" slip I think was a Freudian slip, the intact IV sent gwf was a beast, it got nerfed as well. No one but sw's would be complaining right now if these classes didn't all get nerfed in the past. In fact, the tr buff would have just brought it up to speed with the others.
Yes, a Sentinel DC. A DC that can troll a node against 3 - 5 players (just like the GWF Sentinels did) and a DC that needs a coordinated stun-prone-daze-spike damage rotation in order to kill it. Executioners are dropping out of the shadows and through their huge spike damage are killing them without giving the DC a chance to proc the Faith feat that virtually insta-heals them.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
3-4 players coming at a node and hunting you means DEATH for every class except may be current tank DC IF the enemies don't have enough CC or burst. Except TR. TR is, in fact, just forced to temporary "retreat" or even just hide somewhere near the node.
Sir, what you are touching here is hardly of relevance to the problems caused by mod5 TRs. It's basically how stealth offers a certain tactical advantage within the game, and denying us our ability to escape, or hide and wait for opportunities, is simply denying us as a valid class in PvP from the start.
Sir, I can dare say all the "OP stuff" can be fixed, but what you have complained about will persist -- because infiltration, disruption and subterfuge, is what we do. We're TRs, sir, we do that.
TRs at least before the 2 sec reveal, got way too much survivability and that's what's off balance.
You are supposed to deal heavy DPS.
You are supposed to get CRUSHED when 2+ players hunt you down, like GWFs, GFs, HRs, CWs, SWs and DPS DC do.
Vs good PvPers of same GS 90% of the times, a player is dead meat.
More DR is needed? No problem. Bit more tankyness to balance DPS/survivability? No problem.
Stealth giving you a free escape almost every time and boosting your survivability way above current GF and GWF tanks, while still being a heavy DPS dealer?Nope.
I know it must be hard to go from easy mode stealth survival to mechanics where you can actually get consistenly hit and die often like other classes do. But you guys can do it, i'm sure.
Going from a broken mechanic to something more in-line. Don't panic.
Sir, I feel that at this point we need to differentiate between; (a) our capacity to hide and escape when things go bad, and (b) the ability to aggressively "contest" the node and even kill two or three foes.
If you are complaining about (b), as a TR I would tend to actually agree with you, sir. This is especially evident with the recent trends in TR builds, as people are moving away more and more from "active combat" and relying on lame "1-shot" builds, exploiting bugs and poor feat designs. However, if you're complaining about (a) as well, then I fear you're denying the TR class itself.
What I believe to be a 'fair' balance, sir, is that when multiple enemies come to clear a node, the TR will be so hard pressed as to simply try and make a run for it, otherwise in the long run he cannot survive at all.
OTOH what I believe to be 'unfair', sir, is TRs being able to contest a node by dancing on it for practically as long as it wants, and by exploiting bugged features and OP artifacts actually destroying multiple opponents EVEN when they are BiS level. Currently this scenario is entirely valid for MI Executioners with AP cloak, DC artifact, and AP-gain builds.
As a matter of fact, sirs, the Whisperknives, at least, do not fit your description at all. Lack of ITC tends to do that, sir. The TRs you seem to have problems with, I can bet that the overwhelming majority of those are MIs, and the problem being ITC.
Like this "one-shot kills" thing, with some TRs implying that hey, you took away permastealth/ semi-permastealth from us so we NEED something to end the fight before it even starts.
Seriously?
Poor things, you NEEDED something to give you a easy win to replace something else that was giving you an easy win, at least at the beginning of module 5.
Sir, none of us asked for what the devs gave the Executioners.
For instance, the +50% innate crit severity increase in LB was controversial from the start when preview testings started. 100% buff for First Strike was also considered extreme, and many have expressed concerns over even 60% we have now. The double-proc SoD bug has been reported since forever, and yet it still is not fixed. Shocking Execution changes? Some TRs asked for buffing SE up a little since the last nerf was too severe, but nobody expected it to suddenly start hitting for 25k default, and then go up to 56k with Executioner feats.
Some TRs like it this way, but others, including myself, again, do not see this as normal. We have no objections when these such obvious extremes are the subject of nerf discussions, sir. Our worries and objections, are directed at anti-TR sentiments which simply list down everything about the TR which makes it a TR, as something to be nerfed and destroyed, sir.
Sir, what you are touching here is hardly of relevance to the problems caused by mod5 TRs. It's basically how stealth offers a certain tactical advantage within the game, and denying us our ability to escape, or hide and wait for opportunities, is simply denying us as a valid class in PvP from the start.
Sir, I can dare say all the "OP stuff" can be fixed, but what you have complained about will persist -- because infiltration, disruption and subterfuge, is what we do. We're TRs, sir, we do that.
Mmm..nope?
It's not a certain "tactical advantage". It's the ability to engage/ disengage at will and rarely get killed where all other classes die.
Denying you your ability to get away in a 3v1- 4v1 situation is balance. You can 1v1. 2v1 against same GS classes is death. Period. Like for GWF, GF, CW, SW, HR and so on.
You strategically pick your target, use stealth to sneak upon enemies and deal high spike damage, then you are exposed and can be damaged. 2v1 you get double damage. 3v1 you die like any other class.
What you're saying is TR must be able to deal high DPS/ kill enemies fast AND have a free and easy escape route in a 3v1/ 4v1 situation where, for example, a CW would deal DPS but then get insta-kill, a GWF would get swarmed and killed, same for HR, same for SW, same for GF, same for DPS DC.
Sir, I feel that at this point we need to differentiate between; (a) our capacity to hide and escape when things go bad, and (b) the ability to aggressively "contest" the node and even kill two or three foes.
If you are complaining about (b), as a TR I would tend to actually agree with you, sir. This is especially evident with the recent trends in TR builds, as people are moving away more and more from "active combat" and relying on lame "1-shot" builds, exploiting bugs and poor feat designs. However, if you're complaining about (a) as well, then I fear you're denying the TR class itself.
Nope, dude. TR is a DPS class and stealth is one of your tools. Not your alpha and omega that must grant you the ability to be the one and only class to be able to freely engage and disengage or move around freely. It's called balance and it means permastealth has no place in a balanced gameplay. More like you can activate stealth at will, have a limited amount of time like 15-20 seconds during which your stealth depletes and you use it to place yourself and deal your DPS sneaking on your target, then your stealth is depleted and you have to wait for it to auto-refill. During this time, you dodge and simply get hit like anyone else. You can have more useless DR if you want. When you have enough stealth, you can go invisible again and stealth will deplete so if at full stealth bar you have 20s invisibility until you attack, at half bar you have 10 seconds. Then you are visible again. And so on.
Being a TR should mean high DPS from stealth, then you're vulnerable. Not high DPS and free escape/ boosted survivability thanks to being able to stay in stealth all the time.
What I believe to be a 'fair' balance, sir, is that when multiple enemies come to clear a node, the TR will be so hard pressed as to simply try and make a run for it, otherwise in the long run he cannot survive at all.
OTOH what I believe to be 'unfair', sir, is TRs being able to contest a node by dancing on it for practically as long as it wants, and by exploiting bugged features and OP artifacts actually destroying multiple opponents EVEN when they are BiS level. Currently this scenario is entirely valid for MI Executioners with AP cloak, DC artifact, and AP-gain builds.
As a matter of fact, sirs, the Whisperknives, at least, do not fit your description at all. Lack of ITC tends to do that, sir. The TRs you seem to have problems with, I can bet that the overwhelming majority of those are MIs, and the problem being ITC.
What i believe is a fair balance is for TRs to be able to fight 1v1 on a node, and get killed fast if multiple enemies swarm him. Like any other class. A CW contesting a node solo and getting swarmed by 3 enemies, would survive? Nope. A SW? Nope. A GWF? Nope if the enemies have same GS. Would try to run away but get chased.
More of all, all these classes even if, by chance, would be able to run away, they would need to run to HP pot, other node or whatever, and recover. Not hiding in stealth nearby, trolling the node again as soon as the enemies leave the node.
Sir, none of us asked for what the devs gave the Executioners.
For instance, the +50% innate crit severity increase in LB was controversial from the start when preview testings started. 100% buff for First Strike was also considered extreme, and many have expressed concerns over even 60% we have now. The double-proc SoD bug has been reported since forever, and yet it still is not fixed. Shocking Execution changes? Some TRs asked for buffing SE up a little since the last nerf was too severe, but nobody expected it to suddenly start hitting for 25k default, and then go up to 56k with Executioner feats.
Some TRs like it this way, but others, including myself, again, do not see this as normal. We have no objections when these such obvious extremes are the subject of nerf discussions, sir. Our worries and objections, are directed at anti-TR sentiments which simply list down everything about the TR which makes it a TR, as something to be nerfed and destroyed, sir.
Sir, it's getting quite funny how TRs struggle to do not let go for permastealth and easy survival. I understand quite well that you guys are used to this since beta, but you know, in a game where every class is dead meat when faced by multiple enemies, permastealth has no place or, if so, must be greatly balanced by:
- REDUCED movement speed during stealth, not lighting-fast movement and increase mobility. So 3 short rolls, and low movement speed if you go permastealth.
- low damage similar to module4 and before.
You want to be able to stay in stealth 99% of the time, have 4 to almost 5 long immunity rolls, and light-fast movement in stealth to make it even easier to evade, and also deal maybe some damage here and there, then no.
Then it's a kid asking for his easy mode class to have a safe gameplay where he does not have to worry oo much about getting killed and can safely decide what to do and where to do and may be get away with it even when he is in a bad spot.
Nope. You kill like any other class. You die the same. DPS is TR attribute. And ability to sneak upon his prey.
Survivability is NOT your primary attribute. Node contesting is for tanks. Not DPS classes. You want roles to be clear, then you have DPS classes (CW,SW,TR,HR) dealing high damage and dying fast, semi-tanks dealing good damage but not that high ans surviving more, and tank classes being hard to kill and dealing low damage.
Stealth is one thing, ability to get away freely and basically survive more than tanks is another and is not what you, a DPS class, are supposed to do.
Mmm..nope?
It's not a certain "tactical advantage". It's the ability to engage/ disengage at will and rarely get killed where all other classes die. Denying you your ability to get away in a 3v1- 4v1 situation is balance. You can 1v1. 2v1 against same GS classes is death. Period. Like for GWF, GF, CW, SW, HR and so on.
You strategically pick your target, use stealth to sneak upon enemies and deal high spike damage, then you are exposed and can be damaged. 2v1 you get double damage. 3v1 you die like any other class.
What you're saying is TR must be able to deal high DPS/ kill enemies fast AND have a free and easy escape route in a 3v1/ 4v1 situation where, for example, a CW would deal DPS but then get insta-kill, a GWF would get swarmed and killed, same for HR, same for SW, same for GF, same for DPS DC.
With all due respect sir, you are ignoring the implications which each and every class holds unique.
** For instance, sir, a tankish-heal oriented DC build has no problems in disrupting/guarding a node against multiple enemies when those enmies are classes relatively low in their active CC performance. It only becomes a problem when a mix of CC-heavy classes and spiking DPS classes are on the scene.
** The same can be said as well for a tankish sentinel GWF builds. It can be extremely resilient against certain number of enemies of certain composition, but when multiple classes that can actively prone it comes to the scene, then the Unstoppable timing is disrupted and subsequently the GWF is subdued. As a GWF player yourself, no doubt you know this as well.
** I would not even need to dwell deeply into HRs, since despite the nerf most of HRs are still quite capable and potent under most multi-engagement circumstances. However HRs also meet real problems when ranged CCs come into action, particularly those coming from Scoundrel TRs or CWs.
Sir, I would agree to the pretense that there aren't many classes that have an active, reliable counter against TRs, particularly against Master Infiltrators and their ITC. I would also agree if you, or other antagonists to the TRs propose some other classes are equipped/strengthened to better fight this problem. However, not all TRs are in the same situation, and as much as there are three distinct different paths and two different paragons, each TRs are put in a different situation and we cannot be just treated as a same, singular entity. Suggesting a "blanket nerf" to the entire class does nothing but simply bring out the exact same failures which ruin or overload the class, respective to what the devs wish.
Nope, dude. TR is a DPS class and stealth is one of your tools. Not your alpha and omega that must grant you the ability to be the one and only class to be able to freely engage and disengage or move around freely. It's called balance and it means permastealth has no place in a balanced gameplay.
This is associated with the reply I have written above, sir. There is no "permastealth" for two of the three build paths currently for the TR. The "permastealth" path (Saboteuers) have been more or less pressured a bit due to the recent changes, and the current "trend" of the TRs are now moving towards the "1-shot MI Executioners", making use of the poor design choices I've mentioned in the posts above, sir.
More like you can activate stealth at will, have a limited amount of time like 15-20 seconds during which your stealth depletes and you use it to place yourself and deal your DPS sneaking on your target, then your stealth is depleted and you have to wait for it to auto-refill. During this time, you dodge and simply get hit like anyone else. You can have more useless DR if you want. When you have enough stealth, you can go invisible again and stealth will deplete so if at full stealth bar you have 20s invisibility until you attack, at half bar you have 10 seconds. Then you are visible again. And so on.
Possibly, sir. The implications are unclear as of this moment. Perhaps its best to first deal with the "immediate problem areas" which are, namely, the "1-shot, SoD-bug exploit".
Being a TR should mean high DPS from stealth, then you're vulnerable. Not high DPS and free escape/ boosted survivability thanks to being able to stay in stealth all the time.
Sir, none of the TR builds have all of those in one. Those that seem to close in on that definition, are a result of bugs and exploits and generally poor PvP design (such as the proliferation of easy AP gain items -- which, mind you, is a problem that persists with all classes).
What i believe is a fair balance is for TRs to be able to fight 1v1 on a node, and get killed fast if multiple enemies swarm him. Like any other class. A CW contesting a node solo and getting swarmed by 3 enemies, would survive? Nope. A SW? Nope. A GWF? Nope if the enemies have same GS.
But they do it all the time, sir. It's simply dependent on the conditions -- particularly considering which classes form the "swarm". It also depends on which classes are more optimized for operating alone, and which classes perform better in a team environment.
Again, I agree that there are not enough "conditions" that can really counter a TR enough to corner and kill him reliably. Hence I would suggest giving certain classes certain skills or powers better optimized for the job, instead of a "blanket nerf" that applies to all TRs, which may have extremely different complications since the TR builds differ so widely in their preferences.
That would be the same thing as treating the GF and the GWF as one, same "fighter class" and then imposing a buff/nerf that applies to both, without carefully thinking about its implications. The "why give Iron Vanguard to GWF?" debates, I'm sure you remembr, sir
More of all, all these classes even if, by chance, would be able to run away, they would need to run to HP pot, other node or whatever, and recover. Not hiding in stealth nearby, trolling the node again as soon as the enemies leave the node.
Neither do I sir. It is unfortunate that one has to repeat everything one have said when a new person joins the discussion. I have repeatedly expressed my feelings towards the broken "1-shot" phenomenon through Executioner build exploits, sir. Would I really need to repeat it again? Please excuse me on that one.
Sir, it's getting quite funny how TRs struggle to do not let go for permastealth and easy survival. I understand quite well that you guys are used to this since beta, but you know, in a game where every class is dead meat when faced by multiple enemies, permastealth has no place or, if so, must be greatly balanced by:
- REDUCED movement speed during stealth, not lighting-fast movement and increase mobility. So 3 short rolls, and low movement speed if you go permastealth.
- low damage similar to module4 and before.
You want to be able to stay in stealth 99% of the time, have 4 to almost 5 long immunity rolls, and light-fast movement in stealth to make it even easier to evade, and also deal maybe some damage here and there, then no.
Then it's a kid asking for his easy mode class to have a safe gameplay where he does not have to worry oo much about getting killed and can safely decide what to do and where to do and may be get away with it even when he is in a bad spot.
Which TR has mentioned such, sir? I don't believe I have. I don't believe any other TR player who left his comments here have. Please do calm down, and take time to read the flow of the discussion so far, sir. I implore you
Nope. You kill like any other class. You die the same. DPS is TR attribute. And ability to sneak upon his prey.
Survivability is NOT your primary attribute. Node contesting is for tanks. Not DPS classes. You want roles to be clear, then you have DPS classes (CW,SW,TR,HR) dealing high damage and dying fast, semi-tanks dealing good damage but not that high ans surviving more, and tank classes being hard to kill and dealing low damage.
Stealth is one thing, ability to get away freely and basically survive more than tanks is another and is not what you, a DPS class, are supposed to do.
Sir.
Sir, stealth is infiltration and escape. So we are both DPS AND survival, which require certain conditions.
Again, sir, I agree that currently certain TR builds have BOTH the "DPS" part and the "survival" part too easy, so reducing those respectively for balance would not be a bad thing.
But no TR is ever going to agree to your definition on what a TR is, sir, just as you (most probably, IMO) would not agree when some TRs tell you, "non-sentinel GWFs aren't tanks, nor even real DPS. They're simply opportunistic hybrid DPS which is a little bit of both, so flexible maybe, but always destined to be sub-par.
you have no clue what you are talking about, there is more to tr than 1 shot builds so pls, until you get a better grasp of what your class is doing, stop posting.
One of my main concerns even when mod 5 was on preview was that of the ignorance of other classes concenring the TR
I hated the changes then, I hate them now.Alas most of my feedback was removed (no foul language or something of the sort).
so :
Yes I believe that no one should be able to wipe entire parties
Yes i believe that some classes should be able to hold a node vs more than one opponents with better ease than other classes.
Yes I believe that you hide behind your fingers cause 2 of the things that make tr right now op havent been metioned (AP cloaks-sigil of DC) and I believe that the reason why is because most players are hypocrites
Yes i believe that the new mechanics of the rework are bad because none realizes that TR right now NEEDS a damage buff, NOT a nerf, and I believe that because none wants to see the numbers ,e.g. at same gs Ice Knife might say 25-30k damage and a TR;s shocking execution says 7-10k, yet the tr lands 60k hits, and its not the crit from stealth i assure you, its the bad new mechanics.
Yes I believe that EVERYTHING should respect tenacity BUT: that includes cc from classes that ignore that, and feats from classes that ignore that (every class has one)
Yes I believe that NO CW (of the same gs) ON CAP should be able to Kill no tr, just stall him IF POSSIBLE (when they are both ON CAP let me repeat)
Yes "1-shot" trs die easily, "perm" trs can NOT 1-shot ,and "stun" tr's can be very easily double teamed
(i use the quotes because after almost 3 months in this mode you fail to know the tree's names), which reminds me that:
The reason my main concern was that of the ignorance of other classes concenring the TR was that before mod5 they had to learn one thing and one thing alone:counter permstealth
many didnt even want to figure out how.
After mod 5 the same people need to know EVERY FRIGGIN FEAT AND PATH AND TREE that a tr might come with. So basically my concern is that stupid people will remain stupid
Yes I believe that there should be some changes, BUT NOT because many of you post that tr is OP, cause its not.For sure he has an edge, but OP?as a class? under no circumstances.And for sure NOT the changes that many of you have in mind simply because you fail to understand the difference between OP-ness and bad mechanics or the difference between an OP class and an OP skill/ability
Yes I believe that good players will remain good , and respectable
And bad will remain bad , and still after 1000 reworks will whine on forums
Finally
Learn to play OTHER CLASSES
simply because...
With all due respect sir, you are ignoring the implications which each and every class holds unique.
** For instance, sir, a tankish-heal oriented DC build has no problems in disrupting/guarding a node against multiple enemies when those enmies are classes relatively low in their active CC performance. It only becomes a problem when a mix of CC-heavy classes and spiking DPS classes are on the scene.
I know it and i stated it in tank DC discussions. But first, it's a tank, can't kill a fly and is not a DPS class, so dealing 0 DPS it's kinda obvious it can tank multiple enemies, just must not be able to be immortal doing so, and second, it's already been proposed to nerf GoF and tweak tankyness. It's kind of an extreme build and should be tweaked. Differences between a tank DC and a TR are quite obvious...
** The same can be said as well for a tankish sentinel GWF builds. It can be extremely resilient against certain number of enemies of certain composition, but when multiple classes that can actively prone it comes to the scene, then the Unstoppable timing is disrupted and subsequently the GWF is subdued. As a GWF player yourself, no doubt you know this as well.
You seem to be struck in module 2 or something dude. After mod4 overnerf and with current burst and unmitigated damage going on GWFs do not tank multiple enemies. Not even sentinels. Show me one doing so at same GS. Even top tier GWFs go down in seconds when focused by multiple enemies of same GS. Unstoppable counts for quite little even on sentinels now. You don't know what you're talking about if you say a GWF can tank multiple enemies and mus be subdued with CC cause of Unstoppable. It's just untrue unless the enemies are complete noobs/ using bad builds, or are severely undergeared.
** I would not even need to dwell deeply into HRs, since despite the nerf most of HRs are still quite capable and potent under most multi-engagement circumstances. However HRs also meet real problems when ranged CCs come into action, particularly those coming from Scoundrel TRs or CWs.
While HRs can still tank some, they can be countered and it's nowhere near the survivability permastealth or semi-permastealth mixed with high mobility, gives to TRs. HRs go down. Faster if CCed. Slower if not CCed. Some balance can be still needed but any group can counter them. What's higher in PvP is burst damage which is quite high due to piercing blade and red glyphs. But survivability now is nowhere near that of TRs and does not allow HRs to multi-tank if the enemies are at same GS and know what they are doing. If 3-4 enemies come to the node, a HR either dies or try to run away with marauder escape/ forest ghost. If he can, he is still chased and might get killed cause out of those 2 moves, HR mobility is lower than a GWF's, SW's, TR's, for example. And CWs could CC him to death. If he can't run away, he's dead.
Sir, I would agree to the pretense that there aren't many classes that have an active, reliable counter against TRs, particularly against Master Infiltrators and their ITC. I would also agree if you, or other antagonists to the TRs propose some other classes are equipped/strengthened to better fight this problem. However, not all TRs are in the same situation, and as much as there are three distinct different paths and two different paragons, each TRs are put in a different situation and we cannot be just treated as a same, singular entity. Suggesting a "blanket nerf" to the entire class does nothing but simply bring out the exact same failures which ruin or overload the class, respective to what the devs wish.
Thank you for being honest and not acting as many TRs on forum who just say it's a L2P issue.
I stated many times i am also in for reliable counters to permastealth/ semi-permastealth and buffs introduced for other classes, but the result is the same and the TR community simply refuses usually to accept anything that threatens their easy mode ability to evade damage. Example: bugged roar. It was OP and broken. But that was not the issue for TRs. For TRs the issue was the enemy got a 6s cooldown ranged stun and that allowed the GWFs to have a good chance to catch the stealth TR. It required for the GWF to guess the TR position and aim/time it to really catch the enemy, so it was not a 100% counter to perma but was good enough to give a 50-50 chance to catch a stealthed TR since you could spam it, pretty much. And that was unecceptable and TRs cried so much asking for roar cooldown increase that the echoes of the cries are still here around the forums. 2s reveal was unecceptable and you can still read in past posts TRs predicting doom for the class if it was introduced. But it was not and TRs are still healthy, expecially vs fighter classes and classes who does not have proper dodges like GWFs and SWs.
Now what makes you think TRs would quietly accept the introduction of tools that make it harder for them to safely slip through enemies or get away from damage?
Possibly, sir. The implications are unclear as of this moment. Perhaps its best to first deal with the "immediate problem areas" which are, namely, the "1-shot, SoD-bug exploit".
[
color=cyan]Again, I agree that there are not enough "conditions" that can really counter a TR enough to corner and kill him reliably.[/color] Hence I would suggest giving certain classes certain skills or powers better optimized for the job, instead of a "blanket nerf" that applies to all TRs, which may have extremely different complications since the TR builds differ so widely in their preferences
.
See above. I'm all in for it but you and few TRs are the ones who would accept such thing. Cause it would be the same as decreasing stealth efficiency.
Sir, stealth is infiltration and escape. So we are both DPS AND survival, which require certain conditions.
Again, sir, I agree that currently certain TR builds have BOTH the "DPS" part and the "survival" part too easy, so reducing those respectively for balance would not be a bad thing.
DPS and survivability can't be together. GWFs got it all at some point and it was called OP and is still referred to one of the most OP builds ever seen on NWO. We talk about module 2 GWF, iron vanguard first builds.
However, i do agree with your statement about balancing them, but would point out one thing from tyrion latest thread: no build should go out of specific class boundaries imho. So a DPS class should never be able to get more survivable than a tank and be able to contest a node more than a tank. A TR should always deal more DPS than a GF oviosuly. Way more DPS. But never, ever get more survivable.
Unless the devs want to give each class same capabilities with just different mechanics. But then each class should have a build that allow them to do what a perma TR can do. So it would be tricky. Better if a TR is just treated as a DPS class with low survivability, with unique ability to pick targets from stealth and place some tricks to confuse the enemy. Like the shadow clones TRs can place, that can be countered/ avoided but if well used are a good defensive tool.
But no TR is ever going to agree to your definition on what a TR is, sir, just as you (most probably, IMO) would not agree when some TRs tell you, "non-sentinel GWFs aren't tanks, nor even real DPS. They're simply opportunistic hybrid DPS which is a little bit of both, so flexible maybe, but always destined to be sub-par.
GWFs are hybrid tank-DPS that can spec for DPS but even doing so should not get as high as a pure DPS class. See tyrion thread for my idea on this. But at the same time they should be just under a GF in survivability and above HRs/ TRs.
In PvP you just balance survivability and DPS, so why should it be "sub par"? Only if you don't balance it well. But a TR dealing high DPS and a GWF dealing medium DPS, with TR being low in survivability and GWF being medium in survivability, would just balance.
Too bad current piercing damage threw GWF main source of survivability (DR from unstoppable, DR from sprint, DR from gear/ feats) into the trash can.
In PvE you just need to give clear roles with utility and mix them/ tweak PvE content.
For example you can make CWs main AoE CC only and GWF main AoE DPS with AoE DPS increasing exponentially with number of targets. You do not affect PvP, and you give a clear PvE role with CWs and GWFs sinergy bringing what CWs could do alone so far: one class CC the mobs, the other kills them. If you don't have a GWF, you can use CW+GF to CC and hold aggro while single target DPS classes clear the mobs. Or use GF+GWF so GF holds the aggro while GWF kills the mobs AoE.
If you balance stuff well it's not impossible and you don't have classes being too good in too many aspects.
Comments
Then it seems it is simply a matter of your word against mine, good sir, unless you can present actual demographic information.
Hence I'll just repeat my opinion on this matter and move on, sir.
What you have mentioned may be true - that even in mod2, sometimes there were many GWFs in a match and some times not. But if that is true, then I also believe the same may hold true for TRs in this mod as well, but for some reason you see differently.
I do not understand what your 'beta' experience is of any relevance, but again, the way I remember my start of NW from mod2, there were always anywhere between 2~4 TRs in a game, almost never more than that, and almost never less, sir.
I don't see any reason, or proof, to suggest that there's a sudden surge of certain player characters, sir, and I doubt you'll be able to prove it.
Fair enough.
I'm not advocating a destroy the class nerf. I'm advocating a reduction in the 100% stealth crit (or a change), a fixing of Shadow of Demise so it does not multi-proc you to death when it shouldn't and a halving of those dazes against players.
The reason for our anger and frustration is that in every match you are now facing at least 2 TRs that are making a mockery of PVP and we know a large number of the players benefiting are not skilled players but are exploiting broken/over-powered feats and powers.
The CW is the only class that can survive a one-shot and that is because it has an equally ridiculous power. Your point?
GWFs, GFs and DCs, by design the tankiest classes in the game, are eviscerated by TRs 4 - 6k below them. How do you stop these OP tank DCs? Send a TR. How do you force a KV GF out of the game? Send a TR. How do you get rid of that Sentinel? Send a TR.
Seriously, the sentinel DC is probably the second most troublesome class in PVP and the TR can burst it in a few hits as well.
How can you not see the problem here?
Thanks for taking the time to read everything carefully, sir.
I agree all u say, i started game as a GF and in pvp i was shocked when i was 1 hit by TRs i m playing MMOs for nearly 10 years and never met smth like this i played WOW for 3 years and even the best toon there cannot 1 shot anyone maybe 4 or 5 but noone can 1 shot
it just bored me a lot. I luv the game and didn't wanna quit so i made a TR and now i m killing %80 of players by 1shot. And it is kinda boring and nonsense thing is even 9k TR can 1shot nearly half of the players.
Well good sir the *beta* experiance just showes that i been around longer then you have and that my experiance of the game goes back a bit further then yours sir.
And no it has not always been 2-4 Trs in the game mostly before module 5 it was 2 tr in the games and good sir if it was a time where it was 6-7!!(that imho is somewhat wrong number) gwf in the game it falls rather on its own that it also was common with 2-4 tr in game dont you think good sir.
That you sir see no reason or proof is rather beside the point as the reason is obvious to all playing pvp and the proof lays there in good sir.
If you sir even cant see the reason for why its has become that 4 trs are in every match and that the couse of it is that tr has become OP your own argument to why it was 6-7 in your words gwfs before falls rather short sir.
Now the niffy part of this is that proving anything to you is not an issue good sir because I am confident that weather you good sir shoose to disput the fact that the tr has grown more common in pvp as an effect of their buffs that reality speaks for itself to all that dont play tr.
Have a good day sir.
Maby not as OP as people think depends on a scale somewhat but it dont change the fact or reason to why alot more trs are seen in pvp today then ever before.
Lets at least admit that when 1 class out of 7 stands for 40% of the pvps population something is out of balance even if we have to consider other aspects of the game and why you pvp at all.
In every game that contains pvp there is always some class that is more popular in pvp but to this extent hardly...
Not just any TR but a scoundral, a one shot artist is not effective, a perma stealth rogue is not effective, only the dazes. But it is an interesting point because it makes me think (again) that the three branches of tr are each viable and each very different.
sentinel dc?
There was a time when GF was a true monster with an amazing armor set (stalwart), an aoe high damage prone (that the class really needs given its slow movement and inability to dodge), and a really nice capstone (reckless, providing massive power). The problem is not op TR's, the problem is nerfed GF's. Your "sentinel dc" slip I think was a Freudian slip, the intact IV sent gwf was a beast, it got nerfed as well. No one but sw's would be complaining right now if these classes didn't all get nerfed in the past. In fact, the tr buff would have just brought it up to speed with the others.
It is impossible to ALWAYS be either dodging or in stealth or in itc.
Even if you have some merit to this I highly daubt that keeping what was broken for other classes would have improved the experiance in pvp for those that take part.
Keeping gf capstone with current power creep would indeed made them a true slaughter machine, keeping gwfs bleed, roar, knock downs would have made them and equal pain, hr would still heal damage in seconds while cws would melt anything while being cced.
The current Trs are broken i so many ways described through an almost endless stream of threads by both high end as well as newcombers both trs and mostly ofc non trs.
I highly daubt that keeping the other classes at their hight instead of bringing tr somewhat in line would make pvp more playable or more balanced.
IF cryptic follow their useal strategy Tr will be brought in line and you better work for that with all you have instead of trying to defend what is clearly broken if you want to avoid the HUGE nerfhammer other classes has when it happend to them.
I am sure that with some tweaks here and there you can keep Tr valid in pve as well making them more balanced in pvp and i hate to see something that hurts Tr class in pve as they should not suffer from what goes in pvp imho.
If the rogue has the correct feats, BB also resets the rogues encounter timers....
Actually there were mostly 2 TRs on every team before mod3.
But since this forum has more 24k GS and beta players than the game itself - ah, nevermind 'bout that.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
And yet some say that its was a time where 6-7 gwf was common not to mention the hight of Hrs when there was 5 Hrs in every game did all the other classes vanish somewhere along the line ...
There has never been so many Trs in matches as there are now it happend from time to time that some matches contained 4 trs but now it more common to see 5 Trs then it was to see 4 before module 5 well at least near it.
When Tr was perma builds troll node holders you mostly had 2 in each match even if 3 wasent that uncommon but say that the Tr population always been the same is far from the truth.
In every class raise to the power due to buff it becomes more common its a fact and that fact support that Tr is more common now then before not to mention that we have 1 new class sw and dc that that has become far more seen since it been buffed.
In total other classes should be seen less since sw and dc appeared more often but to the contrary Tr is even more common.
And the comment about 24k gs beta players is just plain beside the point and just and invalid argument trying to dimish what has been said by using the old trick of creating invalidity to the ones arguing against your agenda, wont work.....
Sir, I don't know if that is happening in the very high-end premade scene, but if it is, then it is a matter of intentional team composition since premades are... well... premade. It could be said that many premade teams now view TR as a more important asset so they are bringing in more TRs into the party of five, but I doubt this could be considered representative of the entire PvP scene.
In the normal PvP scene, be it various PuG domination matches or GG, there's nothing 'different' I see in the numbers, sir. Sometimes it's only me on my team while the other guys have two, sometimes we have two and the other guys have one, other times both our teams have two, some times there's only me on my team (although admittedly this one is very, very rare to happen). These varying results have repeated in the past as well, and having been a TR through the tougher days of mod3 and mod4, I can guarantee you, sir, that I've been watching and observing TRs in the matches, because knowing how these TRs are geared and how many are on each team, effect the outcome of the game. The brief wait before the match begins I'd start opening character sheets for every blue, pointy, class-icon I can see on the player list.
...and I don't think I'm opening up more sheets than I used to in mod2, 3, or 4, sir.
Sir, there are so many other factors you are simply ignoring to press this argument, which IMO, seems very weak and shaky.
My guess, sir, is that in the bigger demographics there are probably more TRs than before, but I don't think its 'showing' in player numbers in the matches in the way you have proposed. More likely, my opinion is that this might be a case of selective memory, sir.
When one takes a special interest in something, the human mind tends to remember only those specially interesting to oneself, and just forget about all the other, mundane, normal cases. I'm not saying this is what you are doing, sir, so please do not be offended. All I am saying is that just relying on one's own memory/perception on how may TRs are in a match, might not be the best way to try and convince people that the TRs are massively OP.
Point 1: hitting while in stealth... this is incredibly wrong, no massively games in the world till neverwinter permits this. But still I thought they must have some kind of weakenss.
Wrong.
They have the best defensive skill (after stealth OC), their shift ability is the best in the game, evade all (and seems to last some second after the animation too)
They have the best CC skills of the game (even better then CW)
They have the best AOE skills of the game
They have the dadlyest DOT of the game (Warlock you say?... pfff...)
Plus, the great designers didn't give the ability to see stealthed to at least one class (usually rangers in every other MMORPG).
No wonder there are more then 200 Rogues in the first 500 position of the PVP charts. Every game is a matter of which group has the best 2/3 rogues.
Just a frustrating game. The answer is, leave this until is fixed.
To be honest I have 60's in every class but dc and sw, they come off the shelf when it doesn't suck to play them anymore. The game it's self is a mess well beyond tr's.
Believe me, it is the one-shot artists that are wrecking my GF and GWF. Far more numerous than the Scoundrel. I'm being 1 or 2 shotted to death far more often than dazed to death. The DCs I see dropping on the node are taking huge spike hits, telling me Executioners are lurking in the shadows.
Yes, a Sentinel DC. A DC that can troll a node against 3 - 5 players (just like the GWF Sentinels did) and a DC that needs a coordinated stun-prone-daze-spike damage rotation in order to kill it. Executioners are dropping out of the shadows and through their huge spike damage are killing them without giving the DC a chance to proc the Faith feat that virtually insta-heals them.
Sir, what you are touching here is hardly of relevance to the problems caused by mod5 TRs. It's basically how stealth offers a certain tactical advantage within the game, and denying us our ability to escape, or hide and wait for opportunities, is simply denying us as a valid class in PvP from the start.
Sir, I can dare say all the "OP stuff" can be fixed, but what you have complained about will persist -- because infiltration, disruption and subterfuge, is what we do. We're TRs, sir, we do that.
Sir, I feel that at this point we need to differentiate between; (a) our capacity to hide and escape when things go bad, and (b) the ability to aggressively "contest" the node and even kill two or three foes.
If you are complaining about (b), as a TR I would tend to actually agree with you, sir. This is especially evident with the recent trends in TR builds, as people are moving away more and more from "active combat" and relying on lame "1-shot" builds, exploiting bugs and poor feat designs. However, if you're complaining about (a) as well, then I fear you're denying the TR class itself.
What I believe to be a 'fair' balance, sir, is that when multiple enemies come to clear a node, the TR will be so hard pressed as to simply try and make a run for it, otherwise in the long run he cannot survive at all.
OTOH what I believe to be 'unfair', sir, is TRs being able to contest a node by dancing on it for practically as long as it wants, and by exploiting bugged features and OP artifacts actually destroying multiple opponents EVEN when they are BiS level. Currently this scenario is entirely valid for MI Executioners with AP cloak, DC artifact, and AP-gain builds.
As a matter of fact, sirs, the Whisperknives, at least, do not fit your description at all. Lack of ITC tends to do that, sir. The TRs you seem to have problems with, I can bet that the overwhelming majority of those are MIs, and the problem being ITC.
Sir, none of us asked for what the devs gave the Executioners.
For instance, the +50% innate crit severity increase in LB was controversial from the start when preview testings started. 100% buff for First Strike was also considered extreme, and many have expressed concerns over even 60% we have now. The double-proc SoD bug has been reported since forever, and yet it still is not fixed. Shocking Execution changes? Some TRs asked for buffing SE up a little since the last nerf was too severe, but nobody expected it to suddenly start hitting for 25k default, and then go up to 56k with Executioner feats.
Some TRs like it this way, but others, including myself, again, do not see this as normal. We have no objections when these such obvious extremes are the subject of nerf discussions, sir. Our worries and objections, are directed at anti-TR sentiments which simply list down everything about the TR which makes it a TR, as something to be nerfed and destroyed, sir.
Mmm..nope?
It's not a certain "tactical advantage". It's the ability to engage/ disengage at will and rarely get killed where all other classes die.
Denying you your ability to get away in a 3v1- 4v1 situation is balance. You can 1v1. 2v1 against same GS classes is death. Period. Like for GWF, GF, CW, SW, HR and so on.
You strategically pick your target, use stealth to sneak upon enemies and deal high spike damage, then you are exposed and can be damaged. 2v1 you get double damage. 3v1 you die like any other class.
What you're saying is TR must be able to deal high DPS/ kill enemies fast AND have a free and easy escape route in a 3v1/ 4v1 situation where, for example, a CW would deal DPS but then get insta-kill, a GWF would get swarmed and killed, same for HR, same for SW, same for GF, same for DPS DC.
Nope, dude. TR is a DPS class and stealth is one of your tools. Not your alpha and omega that must grant you the ability to be the one and only class to be able to freely engage and disengage or move around freely. It's called balance and it means permastealth has no place in a balanced gameplay. More like you can activate stealth at will, have a limited amount of time like 15-20 seconds during which your stealth depletes and you use it to place yourself and deal your DPS sneaking on your target, then your stealth is depleted and you have to wait for it to auto-refill. During this time, you dodge and simply get hit like anyone else. You can have more useless DR if you want. When you have enough stealth, you can go invisible again and stealth will deplete so if at full stealth bar you have 20s invisibility until you attack, at half bar you have 10 seconds. Then you are visible again. And so on.
Being a TR should mean high DPS from stealth, then you're vulnerable. Not high DPS and free escape/ boosted survivability thanks to being able to stay in stealth all the time.
What i believe is a fair balance is for TRs to be able to fight 1v1 on a node, and get killed fast if multiple enemies swarm him. Like any other class. A CW contesting a node solo and getting swarmed by 3 enemies, would survive? Nope. A SW? Nope. A GWF? Nope if the enemies have same GS. Would try to run away but get chased.
More of all, all these classes even if, by chance, would be able to run away, they would need to run to HP pot, other node or whatever, and recover. Not hiding in stealth nearby, trolling the node again as soon as the enemies leave the node.
Also, i don't call this balance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu8X-bll7aQ
Sir, it's getting quite funny how TRs struggle to do not let go for permastealth and easy survival. I understand quite well that you guys are used to this since beta, but you know, in a game where every class is dead meat when faced by multiple enemies, permastealth has no place or, if so, must be greatly balanced by:
- REDUCED movement speed during stealth, not lighting-fast movement and increase mobility. So 3 short rolls, and low movement speed if you go permastealth.
- low damage similar to module4 and before.
You want to be able to stay in stealth 99% of the time, have 4 to almost 5 long immunity rolls, and light-fast movement in stealth to make it even easier to evade, and also deal maybe some damage here and there, then no.
Then it's a kid asking for his easy mode class to have a safe gameplay where he does not have to worry oo much about getting killed and can safely decide what to do and where to do and may be get away with it even when he is in a bad spot.
Nope. You kill like any other class. You die the same. DPS is TR attribute. And ability to sneak upon his prey.
Survivability is NOT your primary attribute. Node contesting is for tanks. Not DPS classes. You want roles to be clear, then you have DPS classes (CW,SW,TR,HR) dealing high damage and dying fast, semi-tanks dealing good damage but not that high ans surviving more, and tank classes being hard to kill and dealing low damage.
Stealth is one thing, ability to get away freely and basically survive more than tanks is another and is not what you, a DPS class, are supposed to do.
Sir.
With all due respect sir, you are ignoring the implications which each and every class holds unique.
** For instance, sir, a tankish-heal oriented DC build has no problems in disrupting/guarding a node against multiple enemies when those enmies are classes relatively low in their active CC performance. It only becomes a problem when a mix of CC-heavy classes and spiking DPS classes are on the scene.
** The same can be said as well for a tankish sentinel GWF builds. It can be extremely resilient against certain number of enemies of certain composition, but when multiple classes that can actively prone it comes to the scene, then the Unstoppable timing is disrupted and subsequently the GWF is subdued. As a GWF player yourself, no doubt you know this as well.
** I would not even need to dwell deeply into HRs, since despite the nerf most of HRs are still quite capable and potent under most multi-engagement circumstances. However HRs also meet real problems when ranged CCs come into action, particularly those coming from Scoundrel TRs or CWs.
Sir, I would agree to the pretense that there aren't many classes that have an active, reliable counter against TRs, particularly against Master Infiltrators and their ITC. I would also agree if you, or other antagonists to the TRs propose some other classes are equipped/strengthened to better fight this problem. However, not all TRs are in the same situation, and as much as there are three distinct different paths and two different paragons, each TRs are put in a different situation and we cannot be just treated as a same, singular entity. Suggesting a "blanket nerf" to the entire class does nothing but simply bring out the exact same failures which ruin or overload the class, respective to what the devs wish.
This is associated with the reply I have written above, sir. There is no "permastealth" for two of the three build paths currently for the TR. The "permastealth" path (Saboteuers) have been more or less pressured a bit due to the recent changes, and the current "trend" of the TRs are now moving towards the "1-shot MI Executioners", making use of the poor design choices I've mentioned in the posts above, sir.
Possibly, sir. The implications are unclear as of this moment. Perhaps its best to first deal with the "immediate problem areas" which are, namely, the "1-shot, SoD-bug exploit".
Sir, none of the TR builds have all of those in one. Those that seem to close in on that definition, are a result of bugs and exploits and generally poor PvP design (such as the proliferation of easy AP gain items -- which, mind you, is a problem that persists with all classes).
But they do it all the time, sir.
Again, I agree that there are not enough "conditions" that can really counter a TR enough to corner and kill him reliably. Hence I would suggest giving certain classes certain skills or powers better optimized for the job, instead of a "blanket nerf" that applies to all TRs, which may have extremely different complications since the TR builds differ so widely in their preferences.
That would be the same thing as treating the GF and the GWF as one, same "fighter class" and then imposing a buff/nerf that applies to both, without carefully thinking about its implications. The "why give Iron Vanguard to GWF?" debates, I'm sure you remembr, sir
Neither do I sir.
Which TR has mentioned such, sir? I don't believe I have. I don't believe any other TR player who left his comments here have. Please do calm down, and take time to read the flow of the discussion so far, sir. I implore you
Sir, stealth is infiltration and escape. So we are both DPS AND survival, which require certain conditions.
Again, sir, I agree that currently certain TR builds have BOTH the "DPS" part and the "survival" part too easy, so reducing those respectively for balance would not be a bad thing.
But no TR is ever going to agree to your definition on what a TR is, sir, just as you (most probably, IMO) would not agree when some TRs tell you, "non-sentinel GWFs aren't tanks, nor even real DPS. They're simply opportunistic hybrid DPS which is a little bit of both, so flexible maybe, but always destined to be sub-par.
you have no clue what you are talking about, there is more to tr than 1 shot builds so pls, until you get a better grasp of what your class is doing, stop posting.
Sadly its not...
I hated the changes then, I hate them now.Alas most of my feedback was removed (no foul language or something of the sort).
so :
Yes I believe that no one should be able to wipe entire parties
Yes i believe that some classes should be able to hold a node vs more than one opponents with better ease than other classes.
Yes I believe that you hide behind your fingers cause 2 of the things that make tr right now op havent been metioned (AP cloaks-sigil of DC) and I believe that the reason why is because most players are hypocrites
Yes i believe that the new mechanics of the rework are bad because none realizes that TR right now NEEDS a damage buff, NOT a nerf, and I believe that because none wants to see the numbers ,e.g. at same gs Ice Knife might say 25-30k damage and a TR;s shocking execution says 7-10k, yet the tr lands 60k hits, and its not the crit from stealth i assure you, its the bad new mechanics.
Yes I believe that EVERYTHING should respect tenacity BUT: that includes cc from classes that ignore that, and feats from classes that ignore that (every class has one)
Yes I believe that NO CW (of the same gs) ON CAP should be able to Kill no tr, just stall him IF POSSIBLE (when they are both ON CAP let me repeat)
Yes "1-shot" trs die easily, "perm" trs can NOT 1-shot ,and "stun" tr's can be very easily double teamed
(i use the quotes because after almost 3 months in this mode you fail to know the tree's names), which reminds me that:
The reason my main concern was that of the ignorance of other classes concenring the TR was that before mod5 they had to learn one thing and one thing alone:counter permstealth
many didnt even want to figure out how.
After mod 5 the same people need to know EVERY FRIGGIN FEAT AND PATH AND TREE that a tr might come with. So basically my concern is that stupid people will remain stupid
Yes I believe that there should be some changes, BUT NOT because many of you post that tr is OP, cause its not.For sure he has an edge, but OP?as a class? under no circumstances.And for sure NOT the changes that many of you have in mind simply because you fail to understand the difference between OP-ness and bad mechanics or the difference between an OP class and an OP skill/ability
Yes I believe that good players will remain good , and respectable
And bad will remain bad , and still after 1000 reworks will whine on forums
Finally
Learn to play OTHER CLASSES
simply because...
...there is always a way.
premade vs troll premade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck3Bc-SEDbI&list=UUVjUUAyS6GgT42RvVQYb3AQ&index=8
ALL you do is judge other people(most of you , not all) so judge me however you want ...
.. but thank you for reading
++++1000000 on this
I know it and i stated it in tank DC discussions. But first, it's a tank, can't kill a fly and is not a DPS class, so dealing 0 DPS it's kinda obvious it can tank multiple enemies, just must not be able to be immortal doing so, and second, it's already been proposed to nerf GoF and tweak tankyness. It's kind of an extreme build and should be tweaked. Differences between a tank DC and a TR are quite obvious...
You seem to be struck in module 2 or something dude. After mod4 overnerf and with current burst and unmitigated damage going on GWFs do not tank multiple enemies. Not even sentinels. Show me one doing so at same GS. Even top tier GWFs go down in seconds when focused by multiple enemies of same GS. Unstoppable counts for quite little even on sentinels now. You don't know what you're talking about if you say a GWF can tank multiple enemies and mus be subdued with CC cause of Unstoppable. It's just untrue unless the enemies are complete noobs/ using bad builds, or are severely undergeared.
While HRs can still tank some, they can be countered and it's nowhere near the survivability permastealth or semi-permastealth mixed with high mobility, gives to TRs. HRs go down. Faster if CCed. Slower if not CCed. Some balance can be still needed but any group can counter them. What's higher in PvP is burst damage which is quite high due to piercing blade and red glyphs. But survivability now is nowhere near that of TRs and does not allow HRs to multi-tank if the enemies are at same GS and know what they are doing. If 3-4 enemies come to the node, a HR either dies or try to run away with marauder escape/ forest ghost. If he can, he is still chased and might get killed cause out of those 2 moves, HR mobility is lower than a GWF's, SW's, TR's, for example. And CWs could CC him to death. If he can't run away, he's dead.
Thank you for being honest and not acting as many TRs on forum who just say it's a L2P issue.
I stated many times i am also in for reliable counters to permastealth/ semi-permastealth and buffs introduced for other classes, but the result is the same and the TR community simply refuses usually to accept anything that threatens their easy mode ability to evade damage. Example: bugged roar. It was OP and broken. But that was not the issue for TRs. For TRs the issue was the enemy got a 6s cooldown ranged stun and that allowed the GWFs to have a good chance to catch the stealth TR. It required for the GWF to guess the TR position and aim/time it to really catch the enemy, so it was not a 100% counter to perma but was good enough to give a 50-50 chance to catch a stealthed TR since you could spam it, pretty much. And that was unecceptable and TRs cried so much asking for roar cooldown increase that the echoes of the cries are still here around the forums. 2s reveal was unecceptable and you can still read in past posts TRs predicting doom for the class if it was introduced. But it was not and TRs are still healthy, expecially vs fighter classes and classes who does not have proper dodges like GWFs and SWs.
Now what makes you think TRs would quietly accept the introduction of tools that make it harder for them to safely slip through enemies or get away from damage?
Possibly, sir. The implications are unclear as of this moment. Perhaps its best to first deal with the "immediate problem areas" which are, namely, the "1-shot, SoD-bug exploit".
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See above. I'm all in for it but you and few TRs are the ones who would accept such thing. Cause it would be the same as decreasing stealth efficiency.
DPS and survivability can't be together. GWFs got it all at some point and it was called OP and is still referred to one of the most OP builds ever seen on NWO. We talk about module 2 GWF, iron vanguard first builds.
However, i do agree with your statement about balancing them, but would point out one thing from tyrion latest thread: no build should go out of specific class boundaries imho. So a DPS class should never be able to get more survivable than a tank and be able to contest a node more than a tank. A TR should always deal more DPS than a GF oviosuly. Way more DPS. But never, ever get more survivable.
Unless the devs want to give each class same capabilities with just different mechanics. But then each class should have a build that allow them to do what a perma TR can do. So it would be tricky. Better if a TR is just treated as a DPS class with low survivability, with unique ability to pick targets from stealth and place some tricks to confuse the enemy. Like the shadow clones TRs can place, that can be countered/ avoided but if well used are a good defensive tool.
GWFs are hybrid tank-DPS that can spec for DPS but even doing so should not get as high as a pure DPS class. See tyrion thread for my idea on this. But at the same time they should be just under a GF in survivability and above HRs/ TRs.
In PvP you just balance survivability and DPS, so why should it be "sub par"? Only if you don't balance it well. But a TR dealing high DPS and a GWF dealing medium DPS, with TR being low in survivability and GWF being medium in survivability, would just balance.
Too bad current piercing damage threw GWF main source of survivability (DR from unstoppable, DR from sprint, DR from gear/ feats) into the trash can.
In PvE you just need to give clear roles with utility and mix them/ tweak PvE content.
For example you can make CWs main AoE CC only and GWF main AoE DPS with AoE DPS increasing exponentially with number of targets. You do not affect PvP, and you give a clear PvE role with CWs and GWFs sinergy bringing what CWs could do alone so far: one class CC the mobs, the other kills them. If you don't have a GWF, you can use CW+GF to CC and hold aggro while single target DPS classes clear the mobs. Or use GF+GWF so GF holds the aggro while GWF kills the mobs AoE.
If you balance stuff well it's not impossible and you don't have classes being too good in too many aspects.