I have a GPlague I have in the bank, it doesn't stack past 3 but would even the weapon enchants out.
We would have to put a 7gold bet on it though to cover my swap out and back.
P.S. My higest DPS on Drako this mod with PVorp was 92.8kDPS for a 1:33 fight (including 2 seconds for combat to stop in ACT. was in a pug with low dps though). 60K+ is more in line with other hard hitters in group.
I switched to Rene with the latest mod & respected a 2nd time when they fixed CA. I did play Rene in Beta, but Thaum put Rene to shame much of this games life.
So, you care to take up the CN challenge, or just going to run your fingers in the forum?
I suspect I would make you look like a novice, but who knows maybe you will show me something.
I cannot get the vision of Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now wispering..."the horror. ..the horror" out of my mind when I think of the challenge you just laid down. Lol
LOL that companion is actually called Brawndo (from the movie Idiocracy).
They actually sold a product called Brawndo for a while, but not anymore. http://www.brawndo.com/
Concerning Prestidigitation vs. Learned Spellcaster:
This came up in another thread. I did the full math breakdown and the bottom line is that it just doesn't matter. The difference between them is really minimal. If you are in a totally butt-kicking group then Prestidigitation will add more group DPS (though you probably don't need it in that group). If you are one of the primary sources of damage in a party (say, if you are pugging) then Learned Spellcaster will add more group DPS. But really it's a fight over less than 1% damage either way.
Personally, I use Focused Wizardry and Learned Spellcaster. But Prestidigitation is just fine. It's not stat padding. And it's not worth fighting over. It's a reasonable use of Heroic Feat points.
Concerning Prestidigitation vs. Learned Spellcaster:
This came up in another thread. I did the full math breakdown and the bottom line is that it just doesn't matter. The difference between them is really minimal. If you are in a totally butt-kicking group then Prestidigitation will add more group DPS (though you probably don't need it in that group). If you are one of the primary sources of damage in a party (say, if you are pugging) then Learned Spellcaster will add more group DPS. But really it's a fight over less than 1% damage either way.
Personally, I use Focused Wizardry and Learned Spellcaster. But Prestidigitation is just fine. It's not stat padding. And it's not worth fighting over. It's a reasonable use of Heroic Feat points.
Abaddon...could you give us your educated (and I might add respected) opinion on whether it makes a big difference to go black ice belt over an already legendary owlbear...and hell while your at it lend some words to the whole eots vs cp debate?
LOL that companion is actually called Brawndo (from the movie Idiocracy).
They actually sold a product called Brawndo for a while, but not anymore. http://www.brawndo.com/
But Brando would have been good too.
By the way do not get me started on the "truth" hidden in that movie....one of my favorites! Still an awesome pet name...lol
Well, thanks for insulting me, insinuating I don't know what I'm doing, and then saying you don't want to run an in-game test.
The thing is that your testing method is heavily flawed with too many variables. The way to have a good testing environment is to remove as many variables as you can (unless those variables are needed) and to either do it over a very long period of time or to have a lot of parses to remove the RNG variables as much as possible.
This means that having two players competing with each others in the same run is a very bad testing method because you are looking at a lot of variables just from that:
Player gear differential (for example, I have different artifacts and less enchants at high ranks).
Player skill level (not saying I'm better or worse but it's very unlikely we are exactly equal).
Latency
Reactive time (in the case of dracolich, one player will almost surely end up being able to do more aoe damage than the other simply because of timing and position when adds spawn)
Other players contribution (faster kill = higher dps = parse differentials)
Limited testing (To get a good data sample, you'd need to do it dozens of times, which in all honesty, I'm not willing to do and I doubt anyone else would be)
Ideally, the best thing to do would be if you (or me) tried both spec after having a sizable amount of data with both specs/gear. But even then, due to it being dracolich, you would still have a number of variables that would still make it non ideal. Ideally, the training dummies would work but as you stated, they break and make some skills unable to work, so we are left without a good way to measure anything. Just to take your own example, you have over a 50% differential in parsing, which is just unusable for the sake of comparison.
Abaddon...could you give us your educated (and I might add respected) opinion on whether it makes a big difference to go black ice belt over an already legendary owlbear...and hell while your at it lend some words to the whole eots vs cp debate?
Your input is ALWAYS appreciated.
The difference between the two is noticeable albeit not game breaking in any shape or form. For the vast majority of the players though, it's just not worth the investment.
I did ask if Abaddon tried chilling presence instead of eots (as a thaumature) and he told me he hadn't tested it (he might have tried it in the meantime though, who knows).
angrymanagement is one of the most knowledgeable CWs I've met in this game. He parses just about every run and is always generous with whatever new information he uncovers. He's also credited with contributing data to Kaelac's writing, namely the guide to damage, tenacity, resistance and debuffs in Neverwinter. This guy you're talking down to isn't some scrub wearing a 2/2 set.
The choice between prestidigitation vs learned spellcaster is absolutely not about gs padding, it's about making your party stronger. As a SS/Thaum, it's the only non-selfish feat we have left after Assailing Force was robbed of CoI's debuff.
The choice between prestidigitation vs learned spellcaster is absolutely not about gs padding, it's about making your party stronger.
It is for a LOT of players. Maybe not for him, but I can assure you that it's far from rare to see someone taking it just for padding purposes.
And it's nice if he contributes a lot about the game and logs a lot of parses but if he does that, he should be the first person to know the flaws of the proposition he offered.
I'll admit I most likely sound condescending with how I approached this discussion and for that I apologize. My goal is simply to make the actual GS padders learn to think rather than just looking at a stupid number.
The difference between the two is noticeable albeit not game breaking in any shape or form. For the vast majority of the players though, it's just not worth the investment.
I did ask if Abaddon tried chilling presence instead of eots (as a thaumature) and he told me he hadn't tested it (he might have tried it in the meantime though, who knows).
Yeah, still haven't gotten around to doing a full-fledged, detailed comparison of the two. For how I like to play I'm still using Eye of the Storm more often. I like it because of how I can control my crit rate and I can control which spells crit (mainly, all of my Daily's). There are several occasions where I will substitute out Storm Spell for Chilling Presence. When I'm doing the run of the 5 dragons in WoD or when I'm fighting Valindra, or other bosses I'll run with EoTS and Chilling Presence (with Icy Rays (tabbed), Chill Strike, and two of Ray of Enfeeblement, Sudden Storm, and Conduit of Ice...it depends on whether I can be in close proximity to the boss comfortably.) Most of those spells aren't very useful for procing Storm Spell so I ditch Storm Spell for the near-constant 36% damage boost Chilling Presence gives.
When I did some testing on the preview server shortly after the change to Chilling Presence was introduced I found the combination of Chilling Presence and Storm Spell to be a slight upgrade on EotS and Storm Spell. I think, at the time, that it bumped me from 45k DPS to 48k DPS on three test dummies. But that was a while ago and may not have been the cleanest test. I will cede that people I know and respect who have tested Chilling Presence and Storm Spell tell me that it out-performs EotS and Storm Spell by a fair margin.
I think, on the whole, that it just depends on how you want to play. I'm still running a Thaumaturge Build with EotS and Storm Spell. It's not like that build now stinks. It's just that there are other options that are viable. If someone likes how a Renegade build with Storm Spell and Chilling Presence works, then good for them. It's probably a really nice build. After I've really looked into that combination I may switch to it.
Which configuration is the "best" has just gotten more subjective since the developers have made more options viable. It's less worthy of a bloody message board fight than before. Before the changes to Chilling Presence there was a clear, obvious decline in performance if anyone was using anything other than Thauma, EotS, and Storm Spell. Now it isn't so clear. So I hesitate to throw rocks at anyone on either side of the debate. Both EotS and Chilling Presence have merits and good situational uses.
The thing is that your testing method is heavily flawed with too many variables. The way to have a good testing environment is to remove as many variables as you can (unless those variables are needed) and to either do it over a very long period of time or to have a lot of parses to remove the RNG variables as much as possible.
This means that having two players competing with each others in the same run is a very bad testing method because you are looking at a lot of variables just from that:
Player gear differential (for example, I have different artifacts and less enchants at high ranks).
Player skill level (not saying I'm better or worse but it's very unlikely we are exactly equal).
Latency
Reactive time (in the case of dracolich, one player will almost surely end up being able to do more aoe damage than the other simply because of timing and position when adds spawn)
Other players contribution (faster kill = higher dps = parse differentials)
Limited testing (To get a good data sample, you'd need to do it dozens of times, which in all honesty, I'm not willing to do and I doubt anyone else would be)
Ideally, the best thing to do would be if you (or me) tried both spec after having a sizable amount of data with both specs/gear. But even then, due to it being dracolich, you would still have a number of variables that would still make it non ideal. Ideally, the training dummies would work but as you stated, they break and make some skills unable to work, so we are left without a good way to measure anything. Just to take your own example, you have over a 50% differential in parsing, which is just unusable for the sake of comparison.
Well, since you haven't run CN since Beta...cough cough, I guess you wouldn't know that you can get two dailies off on CN Drako trash before they die pretty much all the time. Comparison between two characters in that particular fight is the best AOE multi DPS test in the game. Regarding movement and getting the big hits in, that is half of knowing how to play this game.
I'm fully aware of what is required for good testing, and have probably spent far far FAR more testing time in this game than you have ever considered doing. This includes a lot of time spent testing lots of scenarios from individual gear layouts to individual powers, to most simplistic forms, ect.
If your not running high end gear, why would you come out here and say I'm gear padding at 22k LOL???
Anyway, done with this conversation.
Happy New Year to all!!!
P.S. to the OP, yes use, CP (only as Renegade), and you should see a very significant DPS increase in most if not all cases.
0
monkeeyman1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 46Arc User
edited January 2015
I have another "Thinking of Going Renegade" question......
I have all those respec tokens from the Winter festival and am just itching to try out Renegade, most likely it would be an SS Renegade (doubt I'd go MOF)...
What has been holding me back is that I have a legendary artifact weapon for Chilling Cloud....
I know from what Chem and others wrote before, that I don't have to use Magic Missile as Renegade, but wondered would I be severely handicapping myself if I went that route? Wouldn't really want to try and refine up another weapon to legendary....
Hope this isn't hijacking this thread, if so, I apologize and can repost elsewhere.
0
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
I have another "Thinking of Going Renegade" question......
I have all those respec tokens from the Winter festival and am just itching to try out Renegade, most likely it would be an SS Renegade (doubt I'd go MOF)...
What has been holding me back is that I have a legendary artifact weapon for Chilling Cloud....
I know from what Chem and others wrote before, that I don't have to use Magic Missile as Renegade, but wondered would I be severely handicapping myself if I went that route? Wouldn't really want to try and refine up another weapon to legendary....
Hope this isn't hijacking this thread, if so, I apologize and can repost elsewhere.
Actually is the opposite. I refined Chilling cloud artifact when I respected to renegade, and I already had Magic Missile one, because is now better in all the casses when you are using Chilling presence. And now as renegade, if you are using chilling presence (and you should), Chilling eye of the golden dragon is the best mainhand.
you should still use magic missile even if you got the chilling cloud weapon because keeping arcane mastery up is a very high dps increase in a single target fight.
Both artifacts are good in a different situation so it's up to preference and if you need armor pen or not.
0
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
you should still use magic missile even if you got the chilling cloud weapon because keeping arcane mastery up is a very high dps increase in a single target fight.
Both artifacts are good in a different situation so it's up to preference and if you need armor pen or not.
Of course you should use MM in single target, you can keep arcane stacks up with both artifacts, but you get the most benefit with Chilling cloud feature
Of course you should use MM in single target, you can keep arcane stacks up with both artifacts, but you get the most benefit with Chilling cloud feature
I wouldn't say you get the most benefit with the chilling cloud feature, they are pretty equal to me.
I think its the same old story like Destroyer vs Intimidatoion build.
I might say: If you have time to put all stacks in a longer fight than Chilling presence(Destroyer) is better. If the fight is short than use EoTS(Intimidation).
And don't touch Storm Spell.
But nowadays every mob group is dying in 2-3 secs.
So testing the dummies could give you false data. (Because they have all stacks all the time.)
Like:
Oh I got great damage with Renegade by the dummies. I should change from Thaum right now!
and after a dungeon: Hey why is everybody outdpsing me?
I think its the same old story like Destroyer vs Intimidatoion build.
I might say: If you have time to put all stacks in a longer fight than Chilling presence(Destroyer) is better. If the fight is short than use EoTS(Intimidation).
And don't touch Storm Spell.
But nowadays every mob group is dying in 2-3 secs.
So testing the dummies could give you false data. (Because they have all stacks all the time.)
Like:
Oh I got great damage with Renegade by the dummies. I should change from Thaum right now!
and after a dungeon: Hey why is everybody outdpsing me?
I find this hard to believe. Also, keep in mind that Renegade's buffing other party members, including thaums.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Comments
We would have to put a 7gold bet on it though to cover my swap out and back.
P.S. My higest DPS on Drako this mod with PVorp was 92.8kDPS for a 1:33 fight (including 2 seconds for combat to stop in ACT. was in a pug with low dps though). 60K+ is more in line with other hard hitters in group.
I cannot get the vision of Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now wispering..."the horror. ..the horror" out of my mind when I think of the challenge you just laid down. Lol
They actually sold a product called Brawndo for a while, but not anymore.
http://www.brawndo.com/
But Brando would have been good too.
This came up in another thread. I did the full math breakdown and the bottom line is that it just doesn't matter. The difference between them is really minimal. If you are in a totally butt-kicking group then Prestidigitation will add more group DPS (though you probably don't need it in that group). If you are one of the primary sources of damage in a party (say, if you are pugging) then Learned Spellcaster will add more group DPS. But really it's a fight over less than 1% damage either way.
Personally, I use Focused Wizardry and Learned Spellcaster. But Prestidigitation is just fine. It's not stat padding. And it's not worth fighting over. It's a reasonable use of Heroic Feat points.
Abaddon...could you give us your educated (and I might add respected) opinion on whether it makes a big difference to go black ice belt over an already legendary owlbear...and hell while your at it lend some words to the whole eots vs cp debate?
Your input is ALWAYS appreciated.
By the way do not get me started on the "truth" hidden in that movie....one of my favorites! Still an awesome pet name...lol
The thing is that your testing method is heavily flawed with too many variables. The way to have a good testing environment is to remove as many variables as you can (unless those variables are needed) and to either do it over a very long period of time or to have a lot of parses to remove the RNG variables as much as possible.
This means that having two players competing with each others in the same run is a very bad testing method because you are looking at a lot of variables just from that:
Player gear differential (for example, I have different artifacts and less enchants at high ranks).
Player skill level (not saying I'm better or worse but it's very unlikely we are exactly equal).
Latency
Reactive time (in the case of dracolich, one player will almost surely end up being able to do more aoe damage than the other simply because of timing and position when adds spawn)
Other players contribution (faster kill = higher dps = parse differentials)
Limited testing (To get a good data sample, you'd need to do it dozens of times, which in all honesty, I'm not willing to do and I doubt anyone else would be)
Ideally, the best thing to do would be if you (or me) tried both spec after having a sizable amount of data with both specs/gear. But even then, due to it being dracolich, you would still have a number of variables that would still make it non ideal. Ideally, the training dummies would work but as you stated, they break and make some skills unable to work, so we are left without a good way to measure anything. Just to take your own example, you have over a 50% differential in parsing, which is just unusable for the sake of comparison.
The difference between the two is noticeable albeit not game breaking in any shape or form. For the vast majority of the players though, it's just not worth the investment.
I did ask if Abaddon tried chilling presence instead of eots (as a thaumature) and he told me he hadn't tested it (he might have tried it in the meantime though, who knows).
The choice between prestidigitation vs learned spellcaster is absolutely not about gs padding, it's about making your party stronger. As a SS/Thaum, it's the only non-selfish feat we have left after Assailing Force was robbed of CoI's debuff.
It is for a LOT of players. Maybe not for him, but I can assure you that it's far from rare to see someone taking it just for padding purposes.
And it's nice if he contributes a lot about the game and logs a lot of parses but if he does that, he should be the first person to know the flaws of the proposition he offered.
I'll admit I most likely sound condescending with how I approached this discussion and for that I apologize. My goal is simply to make the actual GS padders learn to think rather than just looking at a stupid number.
Yeah, still haven't gotten around to doing a full-fledged, detailed comparison of the two. For how I like to play I'm still using Eye of the Storm more often. I like it because of how I can control my crit rate and I can control which spells crit (mainly, all of my Daily's). There are several occasions where I will substitute out Storm Spell for Chilling Presence. When I'm doing the run of the 5 dragons in WoD or when I'm fighting Valindra, or other bosses I'll run with EoTS and Chilling Presence (with Icy Rays (tabbed), Chill Strike, and two of Ray of Enfeeblement, Sudden Storm, and Conduit of Ice...it depends on whether I can be in close proximity to the boss comfortably.) Most of those spells aren't very useful for procing Storm Spell so I ditch Storm Spell for the near-constant 36% damage boost Chilling Presence gives.
When I did some testing on the preview server shortly after the change to Chilling Presence was introduced I found the combination of Chilling Presence and Storm Spell to be a slight upgrade on EotS and Storm Spell. I think, at the time, that it bumped me from 45k DPS to 48k DPS on three test dummies. But that was a while ago and may not have been the cleanest test. I will cede that people I know and respect who have tested Chilling Presence and Storm Spell tell me that it out-performs EotS and Storm Spell by a fair margin.
I think, on the whole, that it just depends on how you want to play. I'm still running a Thaumaturge Build with EotS and Storm Spell. It's not like that build now stinks. It's just that there are other options that are viable. If someone likes how a Renegade build with Storm Spell and Chilling Presence works, then good for them. It's probably a really nice build. After I've really looked into that combination I may switch to it.
Which configuration is the "best" has just gotten more subjective since the developers have made more options viable. It's less worthy of a bloody message board fight than before. Before the changes to Chilling Presence there was a clear, obvious decline in performance if anyone was using anything other than Thauma, EotS, and Storm Spell. Now it isn't so clear. So I hesitate to throw rocks at anyone on either side of the debate. Both EotS and Chilling Presence have merits and good situational uses.
Well, since you haven't run CN since Beta...cough cough, I guess you wouldn't know that you can get two dailies off on CN Drako trash before they die pretty much all the time. Comparison between two characters in that particular fight is the best AOE multi DPS test in the game. Regarding movement and getting the big hits in, that is half of knowing how to play this game.
I'm fully aware of what is required for good testing, and have probably spent far far FAR more testing time in this game than you have ever considered doing. This includes a lot of time spent testing lots of scenarios from individual gear layouts to individual powers, to most simplistic forms, ect.
If your not running high end gear, why would you come out here and say I'm gear padding at 22k LOL???
Anyway, done with this conversation.
Happy New Year to all!!!
P.S. to the OP, yes use, CP (only as Renegade), and you should see a very significant DPS increase in most if not all cases.
I have all those respec tokens from the Winter festival and am just itching to try out Renegade, most likely it would be an SS Renegade (doubt I'd go MOF)...
What has been holding me back is that I have a legendary artifact weapon for Chilling Cloud....
I know from what Chem and others wrote before, that I don't have to use Magic Missile as Renegade, but wondered would I be severely handicapping myself if I went that route? Wouldn't really want to try and refine up another weapon to legendary....
Hope this isn't hijacking this thread, if so, I apologize and can repost elsewhere.
Actually is the opposite. I refined Chilling cloud artifact when I respected to renegade, and I already had Magic Missile one, because is now better in all the casses when you are using Chilling presence. And now as renegade, if you are using chilling presence (and you should), Chilling eye of the golden dragon is the best mainhand.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Both artifacts are good in a different situation so it's up to preference and if you need armor pen or not.
Of course you should use MM in single target, you can keep arcane stacks up with both artifacts, but you get the most benefit with Chilling cloud feature
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
I wouldn't say you get the most benefit with the chilling cloud feature, they are pretty equal to me.
I might say: If you have time to put all stacks in a longer fight than Chilling presence(Destroyer) is better. If the fight is short than use EoTS(Intimidation).
And don't touch Storm Spell.
But nowadays every mob group is dying in 2-3 secs.
So testing the dummies could give you false data. (Because they have all stacks all the time.)
Like:
Oh I got great damage with Renegade by the dummies. I should change from Thaum right now!
and after a dungeon: Hey why is everybody outdpsing me?
I find this hard to believe. Also, keep in mind that Renegade's buffing other party members, including thaums.