I disagree here. P vorp is not a requirement on a renegade. Not at all. If anything, a thaumaturge that use EotS will likely have a higher overall critical rate than a renegade. Also, due to how combat advantage works, vorpal is a bit less effective on renegade.
To my knowledge the Eye of the Storm doesn't work with the Vorpal Enchantement, which is why most of Thaums have turned to the two next best things - Lightning and Plaguefire.
You don't need power more on a renegade than on a thaumaturge. You don't *need* crit more on a renegade but crit rating has a higher value on renegade than on thaumaturge due to not using eots, so you should, normally, have more crit. But it's not a requirement, rather, it's an effect of using something else than eye of the storm. A thaumaturge that would use chilling presence over eye of the storm would (should) do the same.
Heh, to understand a Renegade build you have to look at his abilities from Feats, of course. The build is pretty much self-explainatory and it's quite easy to understand the mechanics behind it. Chilling Presence is a must if you're using the Chilling Advantage, and given just how easy it is to build-up the Chill now, it's a matter of question - Why you wouldn't use Chilling Presence?!
A thaumaturge would use, but it can't use it as effectively as a Renegade is the sentence you're looking for, when we have the optimal build on mind. Not investing in the optimal build is the epitome of a bad CW, however the Optimal build is always not a cost-effective solution.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
i've never seen anyone, thaum, renegade, hybrid, or otherwise, even consider the use of 2/2 setups using Archmage, not even noobs who don't understand how to gear. the only 2/2 setup that thaums use is 2 DL/2fabled, for 900 bonus power (yes, thaums like power just as much as rengades) in terms of gearing, thaum and renegade are virually identical with the exception of artifact and companion choices if you're looking to get the most out of your character. My conversion to renegade involved picking up an intellect devourer, a blink dog, and swapping my GWF sigil for Kessell's spheres. I also got the spheres from trading off a Thayan book of the dead (best in slot for thaum) to obtain a best in slot artifact for renegade, so the cost difference is a wash.
There's more to it for the optimal use of Combat Advantage, in which case the Black Ice artifact set is irreplaceable.
you keep saying that renegade involves more skill to play properly, but i can't even continue to debate that with you because you haven't managed to support that claim with even one example of "why" you believe that, you just seem to like saying it for no other reason than to disagree. At least give us a little insight into how it requires more skill to play the exact same loadout with the exact same positioning requirements with more detail than just an "it does because it does"
Why are you referring to me in plural? Nonetheless, it does take more skill to stack up the chilling while party's all into spreading the mobs joyfully around, forgetting on that little, tiny bit of space called Icy Terrain. It's easier with a Thaum, you just unleash everything, but with a Renegade to optimize the DPS you have to put a slight pause between the execution spells. In that regard the current Renegade meta is harder to play due to a fact that people are accustomed to the Thaum build, as much as MOD3 players are accustomed to the use of Arcane Singularity + shard combination.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
To my knowledge the Eye of the Storm doesn't work with the Vorpal Enchantement, which is why most of Thaums have turned to the two next best things - Lightning and Plaguefire.
What do you mean EoTS doesnt work with vorpal?? they are 2 different things. EoTS is for getting Crits, Vorpal is for making those crits hit harder. Regarding Lightning enchant, it is complete garbage compared to a Vorpal. I wanted to use one, but target dummies indicated it was a very significant DPS drop, & parses in CN showed the same thing. For a pure DPS enchant, nothing gets remotely close to vorpal. Plaguefire/Terror are great options for debuffs, but the only reason to ever use a lightning is just for cosmetics (Lightning & Thunderhead would look awsome together).
Also, regarding difficulty of play...only thing I see being difficult to play for CW is survival. Get your dodges right, know how to move, jump & cast, & know what the mobs are going to do. With EoTS, you get a free crit string every 20 seconds (and if your waiting for EoTS recharges in longer fights to use your encounters you are probably losing tons of dps - OF excluded). With Rene, get your HV stacks out and go hog wild (and maybe spam some storm pillars to proc nightmare wizardry all over the place).
To my knowledge the Eye of the Storm doesn't work with the Vorpal Enchantement, which is why most of Thaums have turned to the two next best things - Lightning and Plaguefire.
Heh, to understand a Renegade build you have to look at his abilities from Feats, of course. The build is pretty much self-explainatory and it's quite easy to understand the mechanics behind it. Chilling Presence is a must if you're using the Chilling Advantage, and given just how easy it is to build-up the Chill now, it's a matter of question - Why you wouldn't use Chilling Presence?!
A thaumaturge would use, but it can't use it as effectively as a Renegade is the sentence you're looking for, when we have the optimal build on mind. Not investing in the optimal build is the epitome of a bad CW, however the Optimal build is always not a cost-effective solution.
ever since nightmare wizardry got changed to a 12 seconds duration effect, it's extremely easy to have it up permanently (as long as you don't drop combat). There's nothing else in the tree that really benefit from crit beside that (there's the crit severity bonus when you deal CA damage but you shouldn't have it normally, due to better feats elsewhere).
The only skill difference between a thaum and a renegade is to, if possible, time your daily/hard hitting spells to coincide with frozen mobs with 6 chills stacks. Which isn't very hard to do. On bosses, there's a need to keep chill up at all time but once again, it's not very hard to do between icy terrain (almost up permanently), tabbed conduit of ice, sudden storm, ice knife and chilling cloud/ray of frost.
The only skill difference between a thaum and a renegade is to, if possible, time your daily/hard hitting spells to coincide with frozen mobs with 6 chills stacks. Which isn't very hard to do. On bosses, there's a need to keep chill up at all time but once again, it's not very hard to do between icy terrain (almost up permanently), tabbed conduit of ice, sudden storm, ice knife and chilling cloud/ray of frost.
There should be no difference there either. CP works the same for every tree. Let's face it, there is no real skill difference amoung any of the trees. Skill only applies to how you play to optomize the path that you have chosen, and quite frankly anyone that has half a brain can do this.
What do you mean EoTS doesnt work with vorpal?? they are 2 different things. EoTS is for getting Crits, Vorpal is for making those crits hit harder. Regarding Lightning enchant, it is complete garbage compared to a Vorpal. I wanted to use one, but target dummies indicated it was a very significant DPS drop, & parses in CN showed the same thing. For a pure DPS enchant, nothing gets remotely close to vorpal. Plaguefire/Terror are great options for debuffs, but the only reason to ever use a lightning is just for cosmetics (Lightning & Thunderhead would look awsome together).
Also, regarding difficulty of play...only thing I see being difficult to play for CW is survival. Get your dodges right, know how to move, jump & cast, & know what the mobs are going to do. With EoTS, you get a free crit string every 20 seconds (and if your waiting for EoTS recharges in longer fights to use your encounters you are probably losing tons of dps - OF excluded). With Rene, get your HV stacks out and go hog wild (and maybe spam some storm pillars to proc nightmare wizardry all over the place).
Amen to this....where did these false rumours about Vorpal get started anyways?
There should be no difference there either. CP works the same for every tree. Let's face it, there is no real skill difference amoung any of the trees. Skill only applies to how you play to optomize the path that you have chosen, and quite frankly anyone that has half a brain can do this.
Well, if both spec were to use chilling presence, yes. But generally, thaumaturges use eots instead. I'm not saying eots is better than chilling presence but it's what I see used the most.
Let's face it, there is no real skill difference amoung any of the trees. Skill only applies to how you play to optomize the path that you have chosen, and quite frankly anyone that has half a brain can do this.
I agree. There is very little skill in PVE. The boss mechanics are mind-numbingly simple. The raid is a complete joke and a worse version of LFR in WOW. Everyone with half a brain eventually becomes overgeared because cryptic was too busy making artifact equipment to suck more money from players rather than actually make challenging and fun endgame content.
this was reported as a possible bug last module, and i did some extended testing myself. i was able to replicate the issue in question, but removing and reslotting my vorpal fixed the issue entirely.
since module 4, this has not been a known bug, and i can confirm that EoTS crits do properly benefit from perfect vorpal enchantments in the current build
IF this were still true, which it is not, that would be all the more reason to choose chilling presence at this juncture
back to the topic at hand, i did some comparison testing in a 2 man CW run with a spellstorm thaum (22k gs) using EoTS and myself as spellstorm renegade (20.4k GS) running chilling presence. At the end of a full CN run, the damage difference between us was less than 1 million overall. I should also note that I was using Shard as my third encounter, while he was using sudden storm. both of us were using Icy Terrain/Steal time on encounter slots, and CoI on mastery. both of us also ran perfect vorpals for the test
so my conclusion at this point is that chilling presence is AT LEAST as good as EoTS, though with the right build and gear, i firmly believe that it is in fact better even for older archetype dungeon runs
the next question is, which build is king now? it seems from the testing i've done that both thaum and renegade are still very comparable in terms of overall dps, with a rather significant advantage to renegade for offering team buffs on top of overall damage
i would be interested to hear if others are having similar results
Remove the benefits you gave to the thaum mages and you'd be largely ahead. Also, you'd have a lot more dmg if you slotted sudden storm instead.
Edit: also, that CW at 22k GS is gs padding in a way or another.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited December 2014
Right. There's not a great way to account for the big DPS boost the Renegade brought to the group via Nightmare Wizardry and Chaos Magic.
If you want to really test it, have one group go in with just the Thaumaturge, finish and check the DPS of the group (not just damage done). Do the same run with the same people, only substituting the Renegade for the Thaumaturge.
By doing it that way, I think you'll see an enormous difference. And I'm going to guess at a 22k GS, that Thaumaturge ISN'T using HV, which would be another big DPS loss for the team.
The truth is, a Thaumaturge isn't bringing very much at all to the team, and when you consider the relative boosting of DPS via the Renegade buffs, actually does LESS DPS on their own, compared to a Renegade.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
edited December 2014
22k is achievable by a HV CW in mod 5. HV + 7 legendaries + 5 personalized jewelry + all rank 10s is a bit more than 22k.
That said if 22k vs 20.4k is only 1 mil diff something is definitely wrong, esp because the 20.4k was using shard, which has way lower dps than sudden storm.
I find EotS better when fighting a lot of trash mobs, like during CN preclear, while CP + CA is superior during longer or ST fights (eLoL/eSoT/VT end-bosses, dragon HEs).
22k is easily achievable with HV 4 piece.
I think I'm around 22.4k or so and my jewelcrafting is only lvl 19, I have a couple rank 9 offense enchants & a few rank 8/9 defense enchants. The only stat pets I have are Ioun Stone of Radiance & Sellsword (630GS), rest are crit severity/wild hunt rider.
Regarding testing or EoTS, I have never seen a EoTS/Vorpal issue & I did some pretty extensive crit severity testing in mod4. If there was some issue that cleared when you re-slotted vorpal, then maybe that is why I never saw it.
Regarding shard vs SS, I prefer SS, however Shard can put out similar damage as of last mod with the Thaum feats for it. SS has no hit cap though & shard does.
I'm using CP with 48% crit chance and I'm sure I'm doing more damage now.
I've been running this since they fixed it. I'm was already enjoying renegade's usefulness for combat advantage & chaotic magic buffs. This being fixed is the cherry on top. This makes my cw more competitive vs passive thaum dmg while still providing good buffs for everyone.
Regarding shard vs SS, I prefer SS, however Shard can put out similar damage as of last mod with the Thaum feats for it. SS has no hit cap though & shard does.
Shard with follow up steal time is still one of my favorite combos
22k is achievable by a HV CW in mod 5. HV + 7 legendaries + 5 personalized jewelry + all rank 10s is a bit more than 22k.
That said if 22k vs 20.4k is only 1 mil diff something is definitely wrong, esp because the 20.4k was using shard, which has way lower dps than sudden storm.
I find EotS better when fighting a lot of trash mobs, like during CN preclear, while CP + CA is superior during longer or ST fights (eLoL/eSoT/VT end-bosses, dragon HEs).
nope, doing that gives you just about 21k, if he's using double personalized on himself and a ioun stone that has a stat increase passive, he could reach 21.6k~.
No offense angrymanagement but it means you are GS padding. Especially if you only have rank 8/9.
I'm gonna guess you are using 2 2/4 or a draconic set. Probably stat giving companions and prestidigitation. Possibly regen on rings/off hand and artifacts that give 3 stats (water, banner/ GWF arti)
nope, doing that gives you just about 21k, if he's using double personalized on himself and a ioun stone that has a stat increase passive, he could reach 21.6k~.
No offense angrymanagement but it means you are GS padding. Especially if you only have rank 8/9.
I'm gonna guess you are using 2 2/4 or a draconic set. Probably stat giving companions and prestidigitation. Possibly regen on rings/off hand and artifacts that give 3 stats (water, banner/ GWF arti)
Your going to tell me what MY character does or does not have? LOL
I referenced the enchants that weren't rank 10, and i'm not sure if your taking boons into account, or the (proper spec) of 3/3 Prestidigation.
Now that the game servers are up, I just took a look.
22,265 (which is lower than the 22.4 I stated) <- that's my GS with 0 buffs (11,821 power, 3,023 crit, 2398 arm pen 3528 recovery 1560 lifesteal)
Enchants are as follows (not including utility slots)
Chest: Rank 10 Savage, Soulforge (regular)
Mainhand: Rank 10 Radiant x2, PVorp
Offhand: Rank 10 Radiant, Rank 10 Savage(def)
Neck: Rank 10 Radiant
Ring of Pain 1 : Rank 9 Radiant
Ring of Pain 2: Rank 9 Radiant
Belt: Rank 8 Radiant (def)
Shirt: Rank 10 Radiant
Pants:Rank 9 Dark (def)
If you are using crafted rings & stat pets & all rank 10s you can push 26k+
Update: It just occurred to me that I have the +100 power buffs on my armor (400gs). I do not have any of those buffs on my neck/rings/belt yet though (which will be ap gain I think).
Your going to tell me what MY character does or does not have? LOL
I referenced the enchants that weren't rank 10, and i'm not sure if your taking boons into account, or the (proper spec) of 3/3 Prestidigation.
Now that the game servers are up, I just took a look.
22,265 (which is lower than the 22.4 I stated) <- that's my GS with 0 buffs (11,821 power, 3,023 crit, 2398 arm pen 3528 recovery 1560 lifesteal)
Enchants are as follows (not including utility slots)
Chest: Rank 10 Savage, Soulforge (regular)
Mainhand: Rank 10 Radiant x2, PVorp
Offhand: Rank 10 Radiant, Rank 10 Savage(def)
Neck: Rank 10 Radiant
Ring of Pain 1 : Rank 9 Radiant
Ring of Pain 2: Rank 9 Radiant
Belt: Rank 8 Radiant (def)
Shirt: Rank 10 Radiant
Pants:Rank 9 Dark (def)
Thanks, I'm just hoping I don't have to grind any more RP for a while...omg RP farming sucks.
My black Ice belt is purple, but I don't think I'll be finishing it off anytime soon.
Your going to tell me what MY character does or does not have? LOL
I referenced the enchants that weren't rank 10, and i'm not sure if your taking boons into account, or the (proper spec) of 3/3 Prestidigation.
Now that the game servers are up, I just took a look.
22,265 (which is lower than the 22.4 I stated) <- that's my GS with 0 buffs (11,821 power, 3,023 crit, 2398 arm pen 3528 recovery 1560 lifesteal)
Enchants are as follows (not including utility slots)
Chest: Rank 10 Savage, Soulforge (regular)
Mainhand: Rank 10 Radiant x2, PVorp
Offhand: Rank 10 Radiant, Rank 10 Savage(def)
Neck: Rank 10 Radiant
Ring of Pain 1 : Rank 9 Radiant
Ring of Pain 2: Rank 9 Radiant
Belt: Rank 8 Radiant (def)
Shirt: Rank 10 Radiant
Pants:Rank 9 Dark (def)
If you are using crafted rings & stat pets & all rank 10s you can push 26k+
prestidigitation is GS padding (it's the least effective of the 3 end feats), it may also just be ignorance rather than willingly padding.
Savage enchantment is, technically, padding but it's in such a small amount that it's meaningless.
The sellsword is arguably padding but once again, I'm more willing to say that it's just that you didn't upgrade to the ideal pet rather than just call it willingly padding.
The GS stackers are my favorite food. They wouldn't be able to do anything without parsing, tbh.
Party synergy > any freaking **** with 22k+ GS or similar who just buy, buy, buy and rush, rush, rush playing solo in a 5-person team, throw oppressive before the other CW, WOW! What use do I have of a person who just buys everything online and doesn't know how to play? Using chilling presence as a method for dps, yet failing to add more than three stacks of chill.
Also, happy New Year. : P
Errrrrrrrr....Also, prestidigitation is GS padding. <---- lol, no! With that much power he's practically avoiding investing in the mere INT, because he doesn't need it as a renegade. And he's gaining more with it than he'd gain with investment in INT +5%, since he should switch to Black Ice asap.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
^^Prestidigation is not padding, especially if you play with some of the GS players I play with.
If you would like to duo CN with me when I get back in town we can probably find a couple fillers and parse Drako DPS.
Paingiver is all about hitting trash mobs before the rest of your group. Anyone can do this.
If you want to see DPS capabilities, I still consider Drako to be the true test (even if the new dungeon are primarily single target).
I still have 2 points in int damage boost (2%damage increase), but prestidigation is a better option at high GS.
Regarding Sellsword, stats say that my lvl 30 Blink Dog is a better option, however interestingly enough my DPS spikes seem to be harder with the Sellsword. I'll put some time on testing that sooner or later, but the target dummies are useless as they hit 0 health bounce back up & then stop taking damage from IT & SuddenStorm in full gear.
& LOL, you called Savage enchants padding???? that is the best defensive enchant for a CW. I would like to have one in every single def slot I have.
HV 4 set, DC sigil, Lantern, GWF just like the screenshot showed.
I may change out the GWF for the CW sigil after I upgrade my rings...not sure yet as I may keep 2 rings of pain & use 2 crafted or may go 4 crafted at which point I will probably want my CW sigil.
Also, my ioun stone belt will get upgraded to the crafted belt as well, which will be another nice upgrade.
- Yes, the Renegade requires most involvement to play. It's not a pure DPS tree and as such you have, what you previously stated, the best of the two worlds, meaning that you can be quite the buff/debuff build yourself. What I meant with the difficulty to play a renegade is quite simple - you need more skill to play it, plain and simple, before going to spend time and effort to change from the MOD4 meta Thaum CW.
I don't see how do you need more skill for renegade than thaum.
^^Prestidigation is not padding, especially if you play with some of the GS players I play with.
If you would like to duo CN with me when I get back in town we can probably find a couple fillers and parse Drako DPS.
Paingiver is all about hitting trash mobs before the rest of your group. Anyone can do this.
If you want to see DPS capabilities, I still consider Drako to be the true test (even if the new dungeon are primarily single target).
I still have 2 points in int damage boost (2%damage increase), but prestidigation is a better option at high GS.
Regarding Sellsword, stats say that my lvl 30 Blink Dog is a better option, however interestingly enough my DPS spikes seem to be harder with the Sellsword. I'll put some time on testing that sooner or later, but the target dummies are useless as they hit 0 health bounce back up & then stop taking damage from IT & SuddenStorm in full gear.
& LOL, you called Savage enchants padding???? that is the best defensive enchant for a CW. I would like to have one in every single def slot I have.
HV 4 set, DC sigil, Lantern, GWF just like the screenshot showed.
I may change out the GWF for the CW sigil after I upgrade my rings...not sure yet as I may keep 2 rings of pain & use 2 crafted or may go 4 crafted at which point I will probably want my CW sigil.
Also, my ioun stone belt will get upgraded to the crafted belt as well, which will be another nice upgrade.
I'm gonna go and guess you haven't been renegade for a long time. Which would explain some of those item choices (GWF/owlbear mainly).
I'm gonna go and guess you haven't been renegade for a long time. Which would explain some of those item choices (GWF/owlbear mainly).
I switched to Rene with the latest mod & respected a 2nd time when they fixed CA. I did play Rene in Beta, but Thaum put Rene to shame much of this games life.
So, you care to take up the CN challenge, or just going to run your fingers in the forum?
I suspect I would make you look like a novice, but who knows maybe you will show me something.
Considering I don't have a vorpal enchant (I run g.plague), it wouldn't work very well. Beside, I'm not really interested in doing CN just to prove a point.
Comments
To my knowledge the Eye of the Storm doesn't work with the Vorpal Enchantement, which is why most of Thaums have turned to the two next best things - Lightning and Plaguefire.
Heh, to understand a Renegade build you have to look at his abilities from Feats, of course. The build is pretty much self-explainatory and it's quite easy to understand the mechanics behind it. Chilling Presence is a must if you're using the Chilling Advantage, and given just how easy it is to build-up the Chill now, it's a matter of question - Why you wouldn't use Chilling Presence?!
A thaumaturge would use, but it can't use it as effectively as a Renegade is the sentence you're looking for, when we have the optimal build on mind. Not investing in the optimal build is the epitome of a bad CW, however the Optimal build is always not a cost-effective solution.
There's more to it for the optimal use of Combat Advantage, in which case the Black Ice artifact set is irreplaceable.
Why are you referring to me in plural? Nonetheless, it does take more skill to stack up the chilling while party's all into spreading the mobs joyfully around, forgetting on that little, tiny bit of space called Icy Terrain. It's easier with a Thaum, you just unleash everything, but with a Renegade to optimize the DPS you have to put a slight pause between the execution spells. In that regard the current Renegade meta is harder to play due to a fact that people are accustomed to the Thaum build, as much as MOD3 players are accustomed to the use of Arcane Singularity + shard combination.
What do you mean EoTS doesnt work with vorpal?? they are 2 different things. EoTS is for getting Crits, Vorpal is for making those crits hit harder. Regarding Lightning enchant, it is complete garbage compared to a Vorpal. I wanted to use one, but target dummies indicated it was a very significant DPS drop, & parses in CN showed the same thing. For a pure DPS enchant, nothing gets remotely close to vorpal. Plaguefire/Terror are great options for debuffs, but the only reason to ever use a lightning is just for cosmetics (Lightning & Thunderhead would look awsome together).
Also, regarding difficulty of play...only thing I see being difficult to play for CW is survival. Get your dodges right, know how to move, jump & cast, & know what the mobs are going to do. With EoTS, you get a free crit string every 20 seconds (and if your waiting for EoTS recharges in longer fights to use your encounters you are probably losing tons of dps - OF excluded). With Rene, get your HV stacks out and go hog wild (and maybe spam some storm pillars to proc nightmare wizardry all over the place).
ever since nightmare wizardry got changed to a 12 seconds duration effect, it's extremely easy to have it up permanently (as long as you don't drop combat). There's nothing else in the tree that really benefit from crit beside that (there's the crit severity bonus when you deal CA damage but you shouldn't have it normally, due to better feats elsewhere).
There should be no difference there either. CP works the same for every tree. Let's face it, there is no real skill difference amoung any of the trees. Skill only applies to how you play to optomize the path that you have chosen, and quite frankly anyone that has half a brain can do this.
Amen to this....where did these false rumours about Vorpal get started anyways?
Well, if both spec were to use chilling presence, yes. But generally, thaumaturges use eots instead. I'm not saying eots is better than chilling presence but it's what I see used the most.
If your Thaum EoTS is better than CP.
Without the 10% crit boost from CA, its just inferrior.
I agree. There is very little skill in PVE. The boss mechanics are mind-numbingly simple. The raid is a complete joke and a worse version of LFR in WOW. Everyone with half a brain eventually becomes overgeared because cryptic was too busy making artifact equipment to suck more money from players rather than actually make challenging and fun endgame content.
Test it yourself. :]
this was reported as a possible bug last module, and i did some extended testing myself. i was able to replicate the issue in question, but removing and reslotting my vorpal fixed the issue entirely.
since module 4, this has not been a known bug, and i can confirm that EoTS crits do properly benefit from perfect vorpal enchantments in the current build
IF this were still true, which it is not, that would be all the more reason to choose chilling presence at this juncture
back to the topic at hand, i did some comparison testing in a 2 man CW run with a spellstorm thaum (22k gs) using EoTS and myself as spellstorm renegade (20.4k GS) running chilling presence. At the end of a full CN run, the damage difference between us was less than 1 million overall. I should also note that I was using Shard as my third encounter, while he was using sudden storm. both of us were using Icy Terrain/Steal time on encounter slots, and CoI on mastery. both of us also ran perfect vorpals for the test
so my conclusion at this point is that chilling presence is AT LEAST as good as EoTS, though with the right build and gear, i firmly believe that it is in fact better even for older archetype dungeon runs
the next question is, which build is king now? it seems from the testing i've done that both thaum and renegade are still very comparable in terms of overall dps, with a rather significant advantage to renegade for offering team buffs on top of overall damage
i would be interested to hear if others are having similar results
Edit: also, that CW at 22k GS is gs padding in a way or another.
If you want to really test it, have one group go in with just the Thaumaturge, finish and check the DPS of the group (not just damage done). Do the same run with the same people, only substituting the Renegade for the Thaumaturge.
By doing it that way, I think you'll see an enormous difference. And I'm going to guess at a 22k GS, that Thaumaturge ISN'T using HV, which would be another big DPS loss for the team.
The truth is, a Thaumaturge isn't bringing very much at all to the team, and when you consider the relative boosting of DPS via the Renegade buffs, actually does LESS DPS on their own, compared to a Renegade.
That said if 22k vs 20.4k is only 1 mil diff something is definitely wrong, esp because the 20.4k was using shard, which has way lower dps than sudden storm.
I find EotS better when fighting a lot of trash mobs, like during CN preclear, while CP + CA is superior during longer or ST fights (eLoL/eSoT/VT end-bosses, dragon HEs).
I think I'm around 22.4k or so and my jewelcrafting is only lvl 19, I have a couple rank 9 offense enchants & a few rank 8/9 defense enchants. The only stat pets I have are Ioun Stone of Radiance & Sellsword (630GS), rest are crit severity/wild hunt rider.
Regarding testing or EoTS, I have never seen a EoTS/Vorpal issue & I did some pretty extensive crit severity testing in mod4. If there was some issue that cleared when you re-slotted vorpal, then maybe that is why I never saw it.
Regarding shard vs SS, I prefer SS, however Shard can put out similar damage as of last mod with the Thaum feats for it. SS has no hit cap though & shard does.
I've been running this since they fixed it. I'm was already enjoying renegade's usefulness for combat advantage & chaotic magic buffs. This being fixed is the cherry on top. This makes my cw more competitive vs passive thaum dmg while still providing good buffs for everyone.
Shard with follow up steal time is still one of my favorite combos
nope, doing that gives you just about 21k, if he's using double personalized on himself and a ioun stone that has a stat increase passive, he could reach 21.6k~.
No offense angrymanagement but it means you are GS padding. Especially if you only have rank 8/9.
I'm gonna guess you are using 2 2/4 or a draconic set. Probably stat giving companions and prestidigitation. Possibly regen on rings/off hand and artifacts that give 3 stats (water, banner/ GWF arti)
Your going to tell me what MY character does or does not have? LOL
I referenced the enchants that weren't rank 10, and i'm not sure if your taking boons into account, or the (proper spec) of 3/3 Prestidigation.
Now that the game servers are up, I just took a look.
22,265 (which is lower than the 22.4 I stated) <- that's my GS with 0 buffs (11,821 power, 3,023 crit, 2398 arm pen 3528 recovery 1560 lifesteal)
Enchants are as follows (not including utility slots)
Chest: Rank 10 Savage, Soulforge (regular)
Mainhand: Rank 10 Radiant x2, PVorp
Offhand: Rank 10 Radiant, Rank 10 Savage(def)
Neck: Rank 10 Radiant
Ring of Pain 1 : Rank 9 Radiant
Ring of Pain 2: Rank 9 Radiant
Belt: Rank 8 Radiant (def)
Shirt: Rank 10 Radiant
Pants:Rank 9 Dark (def)
Build: http://tinypic.com/r/2ed302o/8
Spec: http://tinypic.com/r/2rwovoj/8
Pets: http://tinypic.com/r/29bddt1/8
If you are using crafted rings & stat pets & all rank 10s you can push 26k+
Update: It just occurred to me that I have the +100 power buffs on my armor (400gs). I do not have any of those buffs on my neck/rings/belt yet though (which will be ap gain I think).
Nice toon, Angry. Especially love the name of your augment..."the horror!"
My black Ice belt is purple, but I don't think I'll be finishing it off anytime soon.
prestidigitation is GS padding (it's the least effective of the 3 end feats), it may also just be ignorance rather than willingly padding.
Savage enchantment is, technically, padding but it's in such a small amount that it's meaningless.
The sellsword is arguably padding but once again, I'm more willing to say that it's just that you didn't upgrade to the ideal pet rather than just call it willingly padding.
Which armors/artifacts are you using?
Party synergy > any freaking **** with 22k+ GS or similar who just buy, buy, buy and rush, rush, rush playing solo in a 5-person team, throw oppressive before the other CW, WOW! What use do I have of a person who just buys everything online and doesn't know how to play? Using chilling presence as a method for dps, yet failing to add more than three stacks of chill.
Also, happy New Year. : P
Errrrrrrrr....Also, prestidigitation is GS padding. <---- lol, no! With that much power he's practically avoiding investing in the mere INT, because he doesn't need it as a renegade. And he's gaining more with it than he'd gain with investment in INT +5%, since he should switch to Black Ice asap.
If you would like to duo CN with me when I get back in town we can probably find a couple fillers and parse Drako DPS.
Paingiver is all about hitting trash mobs before the rest of your group. Anyone can do this.
If you want to see DPS capabilities, I still consider Drako to be the true test (even if the new dungeon are primarily single target).
I still have 2 points in int damage boost (2%damage increase), but prestidigation is a better option at high GS.
Regarding Sellsword, stats say that my lvl 30 Blink Dog is a better option, however interestingly enough my DPS spikes seem to be harder with the Sellsword. I'll put some time on testing that sooner or later, but the target dummies are useless as they hit 0 health bounce back up & then stop taking damage from IT & SuddenStorm in full gear.
& LOL, you called Savage enchants padding???? that is the best defensive enchant for a CW. I would like to have one in every single def slot I have.
HV 4 set, DC sigil, Lantern, GWF just like the screenshot showed.
I may change out the GWF for the CW sigil after I upgrade my rings...not sure yet as I may keep 2 rings of pain & use 2 crafted or may go 4 crafted at which point I will probably want my CW sigil.
Also, my ioun stone belt will get upgraded to the crafted belt as well, which will be another nice upgrade.
I don't see how do you need more skill for renegade than thaum.
I'm gonna go and guess you haven't been renegade for a long time. Which would explain some of those item choices (GWF/owlbear mainly).
I switched to Rene with the latest mod & respected a 2nd time when they fixed CA. I did play Rene in Beta, but Thaum put Rene to shame much of this games life.
So, you care to take up the CN challenge, or just going to run your fingers in the forum?
I suspect I would make you look like a novice, but who knows maybe you will show me something.