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Avatar of War vs. Draconic Templar
docsc00ter
Member Posts: 291 Arc User
With both the Avatar of War and the Draconic Templar sets available to me (20k Destroyer GWF), I've been debating the advantage/disadvantage of both. The DT set is certainly more "tanky" and offers more stats, and it helps the whole party a bit. But the Power/Recovery bonus of the AoW set is still pretty sweet for DPS (+1350 each stat for me once combat gets going). The AoW also significantly boosts that all-important Crit score, but it's possible to get close with the addition of a couple of Glyphs on the DT set (though, let's face it, maintaining Glyphs is just plain annoying... and costs time/money).
Your thoughts? What are y'all going with these days? I'm a bit frustrated with the GWF's under-performance in most areas right now in contrast with other classes, and hope that we'll see a DPS boost and some more usefulness in an upcoming mod. Still, the gameplay for a GWF remains a heck of a lot of fun.
Avatar of War
Draconic Templar
AC
13
13
Power
1271 (2621)
1023
Critical Strike
1724
(1600 with Glyphs)
Armor Pen
665
Recovery
574 (1924)
811
Defense
1088
1994
Deflection
574
Regeneration
315
Life Steal
383
Hit Points
4930
Action Point Gain
150
Bonus
+1350 Power and
+1350 Recovery
in most combat
5% decrease to
Damage & Damage Resistance
of enemies within 50’
By the way, I'm playing a Dwarf GWF, 25 STR, 20 CON, 21 DEX (yeah, I might want to adjust those, eh?) I'm using a Greater Plague Fire on my Golden Dragon; I was too cheap to go with a Perfect Vorpal at the time, and haven't revisited it. So that's another loss of Crit no matter which set I'm using.
Your thoughts? What are y'all going with these days? I'm a bit frustrated with the GWF's under-performance in most areas right now in contrast with other classes, and hope that we'll see a DPS boost and some more usefulness in an upcoming mod. Still, the gameplay for a GWF remains a heck of a lot of fun.
Avatar of War
Draconic Templar
AC
13
13
Power
1271 (2621)
1023
Critical Strike
1724
(1600 with Glyphs)
Armor Pen
665
Recovery
574 (1924)
811
Defense
1088
1994
Deflection
574
Regeneration
315
Life Steal
383
Hit Points
4930
Action Point Gain
150
Bonus
+1350 Power and
+1350 Recovery
in most combat
5% decrease to
Damage & Damage Resistance
of enemies within 50’
By the way, I'm playing a Dwarf GWF, 25 STR, 20 CON, 21 DEX (yeah, I might want to adjust those, eh?) I'm using a Greater Plague Fire on my Golden Dragon; I was too cheap to go with a Perfect Vorpal at the time, and haven't revisited it. So that's another loss of Crit no matter which set I'm using.
Post edited by docsc00ter on
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you can hit more hard using templar? i never see this set in action but iam really tired of aow
well from what i;ve seen is a 8% single dmg (bonus power plus crit rating included) increase in AoW plus some rec vs 5% dmg increase party wide buff plus glyphs. Not to mention the extra def stats it brings.
So DT was a no-brainer for me as it provides tankiness and a useful party buff. GWFs are just bereft in the party-buff area so it's nice to have one that I don't have to worry about switching on or off. I'm liking it so far but I'm gonna have to respec boons as my defense is absurdly high now. Not that that's a horrible thing just that the stats could be better optimized.
I've kept my AOW set and always test it with the new content but idk, I just prefer being able to survive a huge hit and go full-on unstoppable and I actually do like using glyphs to round out stat deficiencies. I don't think AOW is that great in situations with the newer content where the GWF is swarmed by ads and has to tank by proxy and in my experience those situations happen quite a bit whether I want them to or not but that's just my preference.
edit: nevermind
I've ran Draconic Templar on Preview (same patch) and AoW in multiple dungeons (new and old dungeons).
AoW is superior. The damage output is higher - doesn't matter if you got 4 dps classes with you the 4-set
bonus doesn't change anything.
Apart from that. GWF has a inferior damage output in AoW compared to CW, SW and even TR i think.
DPS DCs (since their kinda broken) can compete with you.
Obvious result - were not AoE DPS focused, were single target focused. Our job is to single out and
fight the big guys.
No doubt you can still play for AoE and that is nowhere wrong and you still will do decent. SWs with 16kGS
on average do more than over 20k GWFs, but you get the job done.
One of the big problems with DT is the Armorpen. If you use the new BiS Rings that give you 250 Armorpen
(assuming a companion with 2 ring slots), BiS Weaponset (250 2-setbonus) and Dread Ring boon - 1500 Armorpen.
For PvE nothing has more Damage Resistance than bosses with 24%. Therefore 24% Resistance Ignored is
the "cap" for you - if you have more it doesnt provide you anything what so ever.
(PvP is different here, but if you want to compete in PvP you need a PvP-roled-character, otherwise you
cannot beat PvP chars whatsoever.)
Lowest amount of CON you can have is 14 at level 60, thats 4% Resistance Ignored so we don't
want to exceed 20% Resistance Ignored through Armor Penetration.
Lets say you have a 14 CON roll after a respec. Your Armorpen limit is 1968.
DT gives 665 - so your already "wasting" stats. No again, overkill armorpen doesnt give you anything.
It's not like Diminishing Returns for PvE it ends at 24%.
A good PvE build for DPS classes is based on the 24% Resistance Ignored and evolves around it.
Now you use DT you can make room for a little Armorpen giving up the boons from Dread Ring (250)
and obviously can't take the ToD boon with 200 either. You also have a companion with only 1 Ring slot.
Please notice that Dread Ring alternative and ToD alternative are faaaar inferior and a total waste of stats.
Same goes for an augmented companion with a single ring slot. You give up gear options that you could use
to stack defensive stats on a build with AoW.
You have 1665 Armorpen so room for another 303. You could barely use it to use an Artifact with 350 Armorpen,
these Artifacts are all really good and statefficient on GWF:
Kessell's Spheres Of Anihilation, Sigil of the Great Weapon, Lantern of Revelation, Thayan Book of the Dead,
Black Ice Beholder and Lostmouth's Horn of Blasting.
Recommended in that order.
This would be a reasonable setup.
Now I have to question if that is "worth" it?
My GWF uses AoW and I have around following stats:
26,5k HP, 40% Damage Resistance, 18,6% Deflect Chance, 9,5% Lifesteal (along with Endless Consumption boon)
I have no problems staying alive, I can face tank pretty much everything thats in the game. Obviously GWF cannot
stand in every red circle, after the nerf with M4 to Unstoppable.
However, he was not supposed to! GWF has to build Unstoppable through dealing damage -he is not focused on damage
tanking, in-fact you should dodge all Red Circles as GWF, except CC only or Melee Attacks that can't one-shot.
I do not see a problem doing that. Sprint got an enormous buff. Your stamina pool is huge, even without enhancing it.
With decent STR (20+) your easily able to react to everything.
Now my char isnt finished but I will have around the following:
29k HP, 45% Damage Resistance, 19,5% Deflect Chance, ~10% Lifesteal (while taking all 3 Points in Crit Severity in ToD Boons)
With that much effective HP its hard to get "one-shot" at all.
The new gear pumps my character from only 2 defensive slots (chest, pants) to 8. Allowing me to get way more defensive stats.
This is mainly possible due to the new 250Power 250Armorpen BiS Rings.
It does offer more defensive stats - true. Lifesteal with Boons and Offhand is already high.
The low amount is kinda worthless. Regen is useless in PvE. HP okay nice.
Defense - useless due to heavy DR already. DT has 0 deflect, shame on you DT.
Crit (through Glyphs) no 100% uptime and lower stats.
Power and Recovery are far inferior.
My conclusion is. If you like the look of DT use it as transmute, but if you want to be tankier. Do that through,
Artifacts, Neck, Belt, Companions, Augmented and boons/feats, using Encounters like Mighty Leap with built in
immunity - there are many choices, however AoW is not were you wanna start.
Im sure you can stack 35k HP, 45% damage resistance (and more), 20% Deflect and loads of lifesteal using AoW.
If there are questions I will answer them in this thread unless they are not hitting the topic directly, feel free to PM me then.
I hope this answers your question OP. Go AoW its old, but gold. One does not simply ignore the old guard.
If you want to race reroll or reroll, I would appreciate to help you - 4 eyes see more than 2.
Sincerely BlackyLuke
Edit: Sorry for that wall of text and the horrible grammar, I am writing on the train. I hope everybody get's the information though.
Edit2: Statlist: http://pastebin.com/a9GFTnF0
Sry becky, but how did you test it? Cause if you use DT you;ll only see that your grp does the same dmg as you, while if you use avatar there is an 8% dmg bonus only for you so you;ll be above them.
Think of it like this: in a 20 mil overall dmg dungeon DT is responsible for 1mil dmg, to make it at that number with AoW you need to do 10 mil dmg in the said dungeon...
I made lots of runs with and without DT and made a distribution chart.
I know DT is cumulative bonus, however AoW ends up with better numbers,
thats why I consider its so bad.
Then again, how many party buffs/debuffs does GWF have?
Mark
Slam (Daily)
Wicked Strike
Battle Fury
Thats it. Only Weapon/Armor Enchants and Companions provide additional.
GWF is a "selfish" class. He excels immensly when partied with a GF or DC through.
Student of the Sword was working for the whole party, but it was changed. GWF
is simply not intended to be a Buff/Debuffer. Hes a fighter that gets supported.
Thats why his CC is also carefully limited.
Doesn't mean I don't like party debuffs/buffs I totally understand how good they are.
Hell I love them - thats why I love DCs and GFs so much when playing GWF
To the OP, Crit Stat granted by Greater Black Dragon Glyphs doesn't stack so even if you are wearing 2 in your overload slots, you will have only +800 crit not +1600.
it also adds some dps over the 800 crit and at bosses is more 2/3 of the time, i;ve never tested what % of the overall dmg those provide..
With AoW the bonus damage you deal is higher, than your party gets from DT.
DT is nowhere enchancing the complete damage output of the party since your shrinks so much.
DT just trades lots of offensive power for HP.
Laz point is even more crucial, that might be one of the reasons that caused the inferior damage.
I ran my tests with 2 Greater Black Dragon.
Yes, it does add some dmg but you are also losing DPS by your lack of Crit %.
But does the Crit from a Black Dragon Glyph stack with the Crit from a Corrupted Lethal? Or is it that any Overload Enchant doesn't stack with any other?
i would like this set if some stats were moved around(like arp+regen for crit cause we get way too much arp with new rings, artifact bonus etc) and gwf wasnt so starved of damage - if gwf had the damage the class deserves, and they hadnt fd up determination generation it would be ok sacrificing some damage for a lot more survivability + utility
i added steely defense bonus to power, new set has more total stats, but in offensive it sucks, and thats without even adding 4/4 bonuses
AoW
Draconic
Templar
Power
1508.6
1460.8
1421.8
Critical
1721
-
-
Recovery
574
652
811
Defense
1188
1894
1994
Deflection
574
508
Regeneration
-
-
315
Armor pen
-
326
665
Life steal
-
248
383
AP gain
-
150
150
HP
-
2530
4930
Total(without hp)
5565.6
5238.8
5739.8
Offensive stats
3803.6
2588.8
3047.8
+ you get onslaught on top of that
[(newdmg-initialdmg)/initialdmg]*100
For other dmg abilities things get even more complicated as there are unknown coefficients (for us ) for each power and since almost all abilities have variable dmg, records with ACT for 3% dmg increase are useless.
So my advice is to pick the most efficient set cause otherwise things will get very very expensive and atm DT is way cheaper than any other set, if you plan of doing both pve/pvp:
-You dont need BI gear nor the new rings(jewelcrafting) for PvP, you can get with it in top 10 pages and stay competitive.
-In PvE unless you are playing the same dungeon 100 times per day, i dont see any point in analyzing the minor gains from different sets as all content is made for 10-14k GS and we all are way above that.
- Lets you use the same pve/pvp artifacts, you only switch position of vanguard banner with devoted sigil and you;re good to go.
At 14k power the extra 1300 think is aprox 4% dmg increase for a destro, but even the coefficient that multiplies with power is variable for each encounter/at-will and so on...
Actual Damage = base ability damage * crit severity (if it's a crit) * buff bonus * defense debuff bonus * booster debuff bonus * RI vs DR reduction * combat advantage bonus * tenacity reduction * deflection reduction (if it's deflected)
base ability damage = C1*(1+(STAT-10)/100)*((1+WD*.00846)*(0.9+rank/10)*(Cp*power))
WD=weapon damage that is also variable
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/342-crit-power-and-dps-the-numbers-guide/
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/351-damage-calculations-for-control-wizard-abilities/
no info for GWF...
For intimidation 1 power = 1 point of dmg aprox (no modifiers), so is 9% from AoW power bonus for those 2 encounters
so why was i contradicted when i said fabled is better at this point?
u forgot recovery + the onslaught can be kept on all the time
because that 5% dmg increase is similar to DT and depending on the rest of the buffs the actual gain can be less.
quote:
Equation 3.3 Overall formula for debuff interaction in PvE
Debuffed damage = base damage (incorporating any existing buffs) * Σ booster debuff multiplier % * Σ defense debuff multipliers * (1+ RI – DR)
Debuffed damage = base damage (incorporating existing buffs) * [Σ (no. of stacks * base debuff magnitude)* (1- defender DR %) * (1+ attacker RI% - defender DR%) *(1+ Σ booster multipliers %)* (1+attacker RI % - defender DR %)]
Examples of how multipliers stack:
Defense debuff and defense debuff multiplier (additive)
High Prophet (30% base) and Greater Plague fire (9% base)
Actual damage = base damage * (1+0.3+0.09)
=base damage * (1+1.39)
= base damage * 1.39
Booster and booster multiplier (additive)
Divine Glow (15% booster) with Divine Prophecy of Doom (15% multiplier)
Actual damage = base damage * (1+0.15+0.15)
= base damage * 1.3
Defense debuff and booster multiplier (multiplicative)
High prophet (30% base) and Divine glow (15% booster)
Actual damage = base damage * [(1+0.3)*(1+0.15)]
= base damage *(1.3*1.15)
= base damage* 1.45
Typical party scenario:
High Prophet (30% base) and Greater Plague fire (9% base), High Vizier (30% base)
D-PoD (15%), Divine Glow (15%), Assailing Force (15%), Mark (8%), Wicked Reminder (25%), Tide of Iron (20%)
Actual damage = base damage * [(1+0.3+0.09+0.3)*(1+0.15+0.15+0.15+0.08+0.25+0.2)]
=base damage * [1.69*1.98]
= base damage *3.3462
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/382-kaelac%E2%80%99s-guide-to-damage-tenacity-reisistance-and-debuffs-in-neverwinter/
after you add a buff/debuff modifier use :
[(newdmg-initialdmg)/initialdmg]*100 to find the actual %
Talk for yourself please, thank you.
It can be farmed easily, same applies to AoW.
"Most efficient" - 3 people just explained all the way why DT is totally inefficient in stats.
Things will get very expensive? How what is expensive on an AoW build?
Gaining a reasonable Crit Stat is expensive.
True that you can make a PvP build without those rings.
Stay competitive --- wouldn't use this word in conjunction with GWF in Module 5, not in PvP and not in PvE.
Especially if you wanna go for a non-BiS, cheap build.
Yeah I guess you can also AFK in the dungeon and let the other 4 guys do it and then roll need on the loot.
MINOR GAINS is switching out companions or single feats/boons. Switching DT for AoW or the other way around is not a "minor change".
If you have the logs, please share them and those will make the choice pretty clear. I only want the same grp and the same dungeon, also have the clearing time visible pls.
To math it is way too much, unless one knows all those debuffs of the grp of choice, skills used by grp plus all those coefficients.
Regarding cost: To explain all that i should write a guide, but i am way too lazy for such things. Main thing is that most people are getting tricked into being BiS and spend way way more money than they need to. Now tell me can you pve and pvp with AoW?, cause i sure can with DT:)
= base damage * 1.39
this is the base X 1.39 (39%) = the real damage, right?
y is 1+0.3(30%)...
and i am just as lost in all that...
edit: now i got. (i guess)
Looking at the tables i;ve seen a 4.5% dmg increase from AoW bonus, but in tests i saw a 10% dmg increase (i am a pvp build so my base power is lower), most likely for 13k power builds it does translate as 8% dmg increase.
Tables for crit on the other hand do suffer a contraction on added value due to transformation of the CA from multiplier to crit severity so it lowers the overall effect, the 5% extra crit that AoW provides it goes somewhere to 3.5 % overall dmg
Now if someone wants to use DT it has to use it with White Glyphs and the difference in power with onslaught will be of 675 lets say a 4-5% dmg increase towards AoW, if they want to use crit glyphs the difference will be much bigger. Bonus provided by DT for simplification sake will be equivalent to the crit% provided by AoW.
Now we also have the extra recovery from AoW that lets us use our encounters more often and provide extra ap, around 7% recharge time on skills. (so this adds for extra dmg but only on encounter part) and uses newCD= CD/(1+recharge%) so for a GWF it is about 5% extra encounter dmg so about 3% overall dmg.
AoW provides an 8% overall dmg increase for GWF than DT. DT is shared as debuff by all the rest, so is that 4% increase of party dmg more than your 8%? (DT doesnt stack, so if 2 are using it in a grp like tiamat you;ll be 13% dmg down). Now thing is that this dmg is a base dmg of power and it will get always multiplied by buff, debuffs and the rest, while the DT is going to be added in the debuff sum and the result multiplied with the rest.
If fights lasts less than 20/40 sec and takes you 20 sec to get into the next fight then bonus AoW power gets even lower and recovery plays an even smaller part. AoW comes with another inconvenience, it needs a full encounter rotation to activate that means that you need at least 3 sec to activate it or 7 sec as Intimidation it also forces you to use 3 encounters without the extra power/recovery, the uptime is not 100% of the time so on maps the bonus is smaller (very hard to take into account the actual benefit of the buff since is about how long the encounter last and the time you need to reach the next encounter).
DT lets you have a better play, you;ll start with a at-will rotation build up the crit stacks and proc the glyph so with a smaller delay you;ll use the encounter rotation at full power.
Same as GPF/Terror is very good to have someone using it, but the safe bet is to go AoW if you only want PvE. AoW it is also cheaper if you stay only in PvE, but if you want to do pvp you;ll need a different set with a new set of enchants (or you;ll keep unslotting), new armor/jewelry kits and a constant 75k ad respec and that makes the Glyphs a much better choice, so all depends on what you are doing in game.
For those who are sentinel/hybrid builds with a PvP focus that want to have an easy pve life then go DT, cause if you encounter a PvE AoW guy in open world PvP he;ll be dead in 3 sec flat and that extra dmg wont help him at all.
(If there is anything wrong with my data please let me know as my interest is to offer an accurate description and not "to be right")
You got more good tips? Using Reaping Strike as main At-Will or something like that?
no, but thats the only thing that can increase damage, cuz in rest you have enough on everything..