Interesting. I kind of did something like that on a bugged instance a few hours ago. I just kept forward aggroing the pile then dropping RoA behind myself and dodging forward again when they went into their attack graphic and kind of yo-yoed back and forth around the pile. Lost a couple spawns but Siesmic on the clerics definately bumped me over them on the threat meter so they jumped back to the pile. Almost everyone else was campfire squatting at that point so I got to experiment some.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
So you are saying you've only ever had a tiamat failure from a bugged instance? Not only that, but you believe that no one else has ever failed for any reason other than a bugged instance?
All tiamat failures not caused by a bugged instance is caused by failure during the cleric phase. Every. Single. One. Technically even bugged instances are caused by a failure during cleric phase (leaving cleric phase before it finishes and attacking "Tiamat" rather than waiting for the heads to spawn and attacking "_color_ Tiamat Head")
Tiamat was only a DPS race when we could switch instances to another known good instance and get 2 linu favors per hour + a 3rd reward. We can still switch by relogging, but have no control over what we get and typically get bugged/afk instances by switching. Now that there is no incentive to 1 round Tiamat so you can get 3 instances, the only incentive is to win. Every single instance can win, regardless of class/gs composition. Every. Single. One.
You can get 5 shots at tiamat by doing the cleric phase correctly. With 5 phases DPS is irrelevant. Most instances only get 3 because they have newbs ruining the cleric phase.
I am saying exactly that, also provide a Youtube video showing these 5 phases please.
I am saying exactly that, also provide a Youtube video showing these 5 phases please.
there is no need for videos: you have 20 min for the raid, 2 min for head phase and some said 1 min for cleric phase. Even at 1.30 min for cleric phase you have 7.30 min for 5 cleric phases 10 min for head part and 2.30 min for first part = 20 min
I don't get why there are so many complaints about the cleric phase, I have done over 50 Tiamats and I have never had a failure because of bad cleric phases, anyone here ever had a Tiamat fail because of the cleric phase ?
Yup. My second ever run. We never actually cleared the first Ceric phase.
I've had another that failed to clear the second, but that was probably down to people AFKing due to the shocking low DPS on display during the first Head phase.
It is not complicated math folks. If you failed to kill the heads it was likely that you failed on cleric phase. 20 minutes total. The time spent killing Tiamat is 20-(however long it takes the clerics to heal). therefore every time a mob interupts a cleric you lose effective DPS on Tiamat, Damage per second, less seconds= less damage. Get competitivewith it. I always go in with the goal of having my cleric finish first.
ps: I feel it's important to note one crucial bit of understanding that those who are either ignorant of game mechanics or defend knockbacks "in certain situations" fail to grasp.
The demons do not have a damage aura. They do not deal damage by proximity. This is crucial for you to understand. Them just standing there next to a cleric means nothing.
.
That little bit is just plain wrong. If a devil launch an attack animation near the cleric and the player move away (maybe even without moving), the damage will hit the cleric instead. So it's always preferable to have nothing on the cleric.
It is not complicated math folks. If you failed to kill the heads it was likely that you failed on cleric phase. 20 minutes total. The time spent killing Tiamat is 20-(however long it takes the clerics to heal). therefore every time a mob interupts a cleric you lose effective DPS on Tiamat, Damage per second, less seconds= less damage. Get competitivewith it. I always go in with the goal of having my cleric finish first.
In all my Tiamat fights, there's never been an instance in which win or loss depends on speed of cleric phases. All my wins have been in three rounds or less. If we were unable to kill all the heads by end of round 3, then during round 4, some people begin to wait at campfire. Why? because they probably realize we lack dps to kill all 5 heads in one round. When more than a few players wait at campfire in a low dps instance, then there is no chance of winning, even if there were infinite rounds.
Ok slowly here..
1. The next time you are in ToT, during the cleric phase note at the right where the dragon HP are during dragon phase you will see the Cleric HP bars instead.
2. Realize that when one of them is full every second the others are not (because they were not protecting the clerics as well) is a second you are all fighting mobs rather than fighting Tiamat. I have seen morethan a minute lost in this manner. This adds up.
3. Often enough the reason you did not reduce the heads fast enough is that you were wasting time (the S in DPS) on mobs and not Tiamat. During the cleric phase.
4. Look at it this way. If one cleric took and extra 30 seconds on the first 2 phases you have lost a full minute of fighting Tiamat. More than enough to take another head down to 15%. It's like debuffs the damage inflicted is less obvious. By and large an awful lot of people see Clerics as 'stuff we do waiting to fight Tiamat'. ]
5. This is not the only place you see common time wastage. Not splitting off on summoners also looses time. Often enough my group of 5 will kill 2 summoners and Modar is still up when we rush to Sevrin spawn.
Naturally raw DPS will mitigate most of this. If your timed entry actually works and you have a strong party this does not matter. Because likely you will just nuke the adds hence preventing the Clerics from taking any damage. But if you are in that situation tactical considerations do not matter. If you want to avoid people quitting early and gauranteeing a los you should while in Cleric phase:
1. Ignoire kills. What you want is to CC / aggro everything the instant it spawns.]
2. Aggro/ CC anything that does not get pinned on spawn.
3. Watch the overall health meters for clerics. If your Cleric is doing well and another is way behind in HP go there and assist. Following the methodology in 1&2.
Remember you are not simply defending the clerics. You are buying time for 25 players to reduce dragon heads. Do not:]
1. Fight on top of the Clerics. If one catches aggro engage then leave or engage at range. While killing mobs is not 'bad' what is preferable is having them attacking you and not the Clerics.
2. Use lots of big pushes. They do not have enough damage to gain aggro. Since the leap is essentially a ranged attack removing the mobs from the Clerics is useless unless you back it up with a heavier attack. Those HPs on the Clerics are huge and generate a lot of heal aggro.
3. Get too serious about what was a satire post to begin with. Really I thought that this was a known fact since Mod2 when splitshot HRs were dragging mobs halfway across the map. Thou shalt not scatter the mobs. Pretty sure Moses said that. I'm a half-decent CW when I feel like playing him but IT, ST, COI, and OF do a really decent job of controlling and hurting mobs without making them impossible for the rest of the party to fight. I hope Santa was good to you and try not to lose the mortgage on the Steam Winter dale (Dominions4 is at %25!!!!) I need to sleep.
Remember you are not simply defending the clerics. You are buying time for 25 players to reduce dragon heads.
There is only a 2-minute time window to kill all dragon heads. You can not "buy" more than 2 minutes per dragon head phase.
I just left an instance in which people were leaving after the first round.
The instance was only able to finish 1 1/2 dragon heads during the first round and then some people left.
Second cleric phase lasted many minutes, until I finally exited due to obvious fail.
We never progressed past the second cleric phase.
Your calculations assume that everyone will stay and fight during the entire 20 minutes, if needed, but this has never happened to me.
Really I thought that this was a known fact since Mod2 when splitshot HRs were dragging mobs halfway across the map. Thou shalt not scatter the mobs. Pretty sure Moses said that.
This is why Arcane Singularity used to be the focal point of every dungeon run. If you keep the Legion Devils and Erinyes in one place (preferably away from the clerics) and apply AOE control effects / debuffs then you can burn them down pretty easily. Knockbacks make it more likely that a mob will end up alone on the cleric because everyone is chasing the other mobs around and crowd control breaks down.
This is why Arcane Singularity used to be the focal point of every dungeon run. If you keep the Legion Devils and Erinyes in one place (preferably away from the clerics) and apply AOE control effects / debuffs then you can burn them down pretty easily. Knockbacks make it more likely that a mob will end up alone on the cleric because everyone is chasing the other mobs around and crowd control breaks down.
Yeah and people stopped using sing because they lowered the target numbers. But in Tiamat the spawns are pretty small so sing still can grab the whole spawn.
Hello!
I did not read all of the answers, so sorry if it was already wrote.
Instead of using Ice Storm and/or Singu (it interupts Shard and Sudden Storm) just use OF. CC time is the same or even longer than IS one, it gives you more dmg and lot of lifesteal.
If you put so much effort on rankings, I just ussualy ends at top 5 at 20k+ raids and top 2 at other ones.
Peace
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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beatannierMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 692Arc User
edited December 2014
OF still pushes devils back and makes a small damage togheter with short dazzle time.
Furious Immolation is BIS. It pulls instead of push, dazzles for longer and debuffs well.
But if you went the party weaker paragon, OF looks quite better choice than singu and, obiously, IS.
I managed to fox shift off a ledge at the dragon head when someone decided to throw the devil over the edge..
First thing that came to mind was, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, then proceeded to fall to my doom.
At least as HR you can dodge back to land. Cannot count how many times my gf lunged off of a cliff. You see the push as you start the animation and all you can do is grab ankles.....
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There is only a 2-minute time window to kill all dragon heads. You can not "buy" more than 2 minutes per dragon head phase.
Nor do you need to.
11% of 16,500,000 = 1,815,000 x 5 heads = 9,075,000 total health remaining.
9,075,000 / 25 = 363,000 damage each party member must deal
363,000 / 60 seconds = 6,050 DPS required of each party member to complete all 5 heads in a single round.
Notice the 60 seconds. That assumes of the 120 seconds given that not only are you wasting time traveling between heads (30s) but you are also dying and waiting the 15s res timer without getting ressed, releasing, and then running back from the camp fire at some point during the round.
Without deaths and only traveling you need 4k DPS per player to complete tiamat.
4k DPS. That's zerging so 4k DPS after full debuffs/buffs, maybe 1-2k DPS before buff/debuff. If you were arguing that level 32 characters with 2.5k GS shouldn't be allowed in Tiamat then sure, 4k DPS would be a hurdle that many level 32 characters would struggle to overcome. But really, come on. 10k GS = 8-10k DPS.
Tactics non zerg (travel time only from clerics to dragon head, 10s) would need 3k DPS after a much smaller number of buff/debuff, probably 2.5k DPS before buff/debuff.
You people are drastically overestimating how important DPS is to Tiamat. A lack of it cannot cause you to fail, other than discouragement causing the zone to /afk.
There really are only 3 things that causes a Tiamat fail:
1) Bugged instance, cannot progress.
2) wasting time during cleric phase ie throwing mobs.
3) People giving up and logging/AFKing.
I included that last one only because that judgement happens so quickly now. People give up on anything that isn't a guaranteed 2 round win. Primarily because Linu's aren't as scarce now, most people who farm tia have their offhands/necks and 6th boon+ already, and simply don't want to deal with the aggravation.
Most people wait until the first head round is complete before giving up, but not because they just now realize they won't have the DPS. It is the combination of wasting time causing cleric phase to take too long, combined with the lack of DPS that makes them realize the instance is "hopeless" or at least, not worth the effort to pull out a win. More and more often people are realizing the instance is lost during the first cleric phase or even before during summoners, and not even waiting til the first head phase.
People who are bad at clerics are also usually bad at DPS. There is a correlation there, which has been (somewhat falsely) linked to low GS. Then you have people whiteknighting all those poor misunderstood 10k players.
The truth is that 90% of 10k people are "bad." There are a select handful of highly skilled people that are miraculously somehow still 10k, but it is rare.
Now don't be too offended, 90% of ALL players are "bad". It's just that those with more gear can obfuscate their terrible play and pull it off being bad the whole time. That's what happens when you have 2 years and 5 mods worth of incredible power creep combined with the devs nerfing the difficulty of all dungeons down to joke levels. Most players are bad at PVE simply because you've never really needed to be all that good anyway, and especially not since mod 1.
look at ACT of your tiamat fights, and you'll find that <8 players (usually about 5-6) do 60% of the damage in tiamat. Ignore the cleric phase ppl are too far apart to capture all the logs.
It doesn't matter the average GS of the instance, whether it was timed run with friends/guild/channel or random enter. Most players are fodder. If you happen to get in an amazing instance where 15 or more players are pulling their weight then; in high GS instance, it's a 1 rounder. in not so high GS instance, it's over in the first 45 seconds of round 2, most of that being travel time.
11% of 16,500,000 = 1,815,000 x 5 heads = 9,075,000 total health remaining.
9,075,000 / 25 = 363,000 damage each party member must deal
363,000 / 60 seconds = 6,050 DPS required of each party member to complete all 5 heads in a single round.
Notice the 60 seconds. That assumes of the 120 seconds given that not only are you wasting time traveling between heads (30s) but you are also dying and waiting the 15s res timer without getting ressed, releasing, and then running back from the camp fire at some point during the round.
Without deaths and only traveling you need 4k DPS per player to complete tiamat.
4k DPS. That's zerging so 4k DPS after full debuffs/buffs, maybe 1-2k DPS before buff/debuff. If you were arguing that level 32 characters with 2.5k GS shouldn't be allowed in Tiamat then sure, 4k DPS would be a hurdle that many level 32 characters would struggle to overcome. But really, come on. 10k GS = 8-10k DPS.
Tactics non zerg (travel time only from clerics to dragon head, 10s) would need 3k DPS after a much smaller number of buff/debuff, probably 2.5k DPS before buff/debuff.
You people are drastically overestimating how important DPS is to Tiamat. A lack of it cannot cause you to fail, other than discouragement causing the zone to /afk.
There really are only 3 things that causes a Tiamat fail:
1) Bugged instance, cannot progress.
2) wasting time during cleric phase ie throwing mobs.
3) People giving up and logging/AFKing.
I included that last one only because that judgement happens so quickly now. People give up on anything that isn't a guaranteed 2 round win. Primarily because Linu's aren't as scarce now, most people who farm tia have their offhands/necks and 6th boon+ already, and simply don't want to deal with the aggravation.
Most people wait until the first head round is complete before giving up, but not because they just now realize they won't have the DPS. It is the combination of wasting time causing cleric phase to take too long, combined with the lack of DPS that makes them realize the instance is "hopeless" or at least, not worth the effort to pull out a win. More and more often people are realizing the instance is lost during the first cleric phase or even before during summoners, and not even waiting til the first head phase.
People who are bad at clerics are also usually bad at DPS. There is a correlation there, which has been (somewhat falsely) linked to low GS. Then you have people whiteknighting all those poor misunderstood 10k players.
The truth is that 90% of 10k people are "bad." There are a select handful of highly skilled people that are miraculously somehow still 10k, but it is rare.
Now don't be too offended, 90% of ALL players are "bad". It's just that those with more gear can obfuscate their terrible play and pull it off being bad the whole time. That's what happens when you have 2 years and 5 mods worth of incredible power creep combined with the devs nerfing the difficulty of all dungeons down to joke levels. Most players are bad at PVE simply because you've never really needed to be all that good anyway, and especially not since mod 1.
look at ACT of your tiamat fights, and you'll find that <8 players (usually about 5-6) do 60% of the damage in tiamat. Ignore the cleric phase ppl are too far apart to capture all the logs.
It doesn't matter the average GS of the instance, whether it was timed run with friends/guild/channel or random enter. Most players are fodder. If you happen to get in an amazing instance where 15 or more players are pulling their weight then; in high GS instance, it's a 1 rounder. in not so high GS instance, it's over in the first 45 seconds of round 2, most of that being travel time.
I don't know, I think you can have a lack of dps even if it's rare. I've done a total of one tiamat where the black head just barely went down and that was with everyone at the head. No other heads were prepped during that phase. Considering some of the powers I saw being fired off though, I think that it was a matter of people with no idea loading all the wrong powers, rather than gear.
I don't know, I think you can have a lack of dps even if it's rare. I've done a total of one tiamat where the black head just barely went down and that was with everyone at the head. No other heads were prepped during that phase. Considering some of the powers I saw being fired off though, I think that it was a matter of people with no idea loading all the wrong powers, rather than gear.
wow I have had 12 standard drinks ie 6 beers and 4 wines and still finish in top 7 in Timat not GS but abilitly noobs sorry
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urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
edited December 2014
It is good when they help you... not so much when you are the target
I don't know how to thank you. Things looked pretty desperate there until you came along. My comrades and I were heavilly engaged by several very dangerous melle classes no where near the clerics. Many of us in fact were CCed and could not escape! The rest of us were so heavilly aggroed we could not proceed to the target and it seemed we would soon perish. That is when you so valliantly saved us. By throwing us clear of our impending doom we had the opportunity to re-group and assault our nemisi you gave us the opportunity to re-group. And I am pretty sure that the LifeSteal they were counting on to recover from battle allowed us to kill that TR and force the HR to soulforge and ravenskull. Your selfless courage will never be forgoten.
Yours with eternal grattitude, Legion Devil # 486
Yeah well, you got lucky. I cannot tell you how many times I ended up in the pits of Tiamat from that darn Ice Storm.
Legion Devil # 1032
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
Yeah well, you got lucky. I cannot tell you how many times I ended up in the pits of Tiamat from that darn Ice Storm.
Legion Devil # 1032
Legion Devil #1032 you are an insolent worm. If you weren't so weak you would just teleport yourself back up. Get back up there and kill that wizard, or I will torture you for all eternity.
Tiamat
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
So you are saying you've only ever had a tiamat failure from a bugged instance? Not only that, but you believe that no one else has ever failed for any reason other than a bugged instance?
All tiamat failures not caused by a bugged instance is caused by failure during the cleric phase. Every. Single. One. Technically even bugged instances are caused by a failure during cleric phase (leaving cleric phase before it finishes and attacking "Tiamat" rather than waiting for the heads to spawn and attacking "_color_ Tiamat Head")
Tiamat was only a DPS race when we could switch instances to another known good instance and get 2 linu favors per hour + a 3rd reward. We can still switch by relogging, but have no control over what we get and typically get bugged/afk instances by switching. Now that there is no incentive to 1 round Tiamat so you can get 3 instances, the only incentive is to win. Every single instance can win, regardless of class/gs composition. Every. Single. One.
You can get 5 shots at tiamat by doing the cleric phase correctly. With 5 phases DPS is irrelevant. Most instances only get 3 because they have newbs ruining the cleric phase.
Not True. I am 48-8. First 3 times running Tiamat was a failure, as people were stilll learning what to do.
LOL, if there is someone going knockback crazy by a cleric I just move to another cleric.
There are only 2 conditions people should be using knockbacks:
1. Clearing mobs off of the clerics.
2. Knocking mobs off the map so the fall to their death.
Outside of that they are just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over their team mates.
For those that may not have noticed, the female mobs have a ranged charge and it hurts squishy classes pretty bad.
Oppressive Force (for CW) will keep the mobs from doing damage about as long as Ice Storm (due to CC), and keeps the mobs pretty closely grouped, and creates massive agro so the mobs want to group, and makes everyone near you not want to chew glass.
My very first run in Tiamat, I saw some other person typing in zone chat to make sure IS was slotted, so I did it. Not knowing the mechanics of the fight inside. Once we got in there and the Cleric defense phase hit- I immediately noticed how it seemed detrimental to others who were fighting, trying to hold aggro and trying to kill the adds. Never used it since. Only use OF now, when several of them are gathered away from the cleric. It does a 'slight' knockback- but very negligible; not enough to interfere with most other's DPS efforts on the targeted adds. Now I'm finding that I'm as much a victim to the IceStorm as everyone else when there's another cw at the cleric who is using it... constantly blowing the adds out of range right when I try to light off the OF or drop Ice Terrain...
I play a GWF here is my take on what the issue with Ice Storm is ...
during the cleric phase I usually hang out near where the demons spawn if its an outside cleric then I stand toward the middle cleric facing the cliff on the white or black head side. when they spawn I FLS them down this intterups the erinyes charge at the cleric and gets the attention of the other demons I TR to mark them all then come and get it to gather them and IBS them. as I move through their ranks smacking them about with my sword I move closer to the ledge incase any DC or CW wants to push them off or burn them ect...
where the problem comes in is when I knock them down and charge in to gather them with CAGI there is always that one dude who shifts in and BOOM ICE STORM and they go flying like popcorn in every direction, usually back behind the red line where you take damage from tiamat making only ranged able to hit them so they get aggro and when the erinyes charge and the others tele behind them and kill the ranged. so I gather up the adds pick up my fallen comrade and blam friggin IS again!!!
here are some things people need to know about the cleric phase.
1. when adds spawn erinyes are the most dangerous because of their charge cc them, knock them over, slow them stun them, tell them a funny story just get their attention immediately the other demons not so much just hit them once and they will leave the cleric alone
2. if you have hit the demons you have aggro (unless somone else marks or hits them harder) THEY WILL NOT HIT THE CLERIC!
even if you are standing right on top of them their attacks are direct damage not aoe they will not "miss you and hit the cleric"
I have been in a fail tiamat and tested this while everyone was crying at the campfire I gathered all the adds on one cleric and stood there right on top of it and the cleric never fell over everything was attacking me.
to my CW friends out there IS and repel are not bad spells they are just situational if you are CW throw down an IT to slow them and wait a sec let the melee get their attention if they are any good they can drag them to the edge and boom repel and IS your little magical balls off
if you really wanna be effective though and your melees are a bunch of window lickers use OF or FI (also works well if you have high dps melee and they are just burning them)
to my GWFs and GFs you can be a CW too if you FLS at the wrong time if the mobs are in the air after being FLS by another player if you FLS they are gonna fly farther and boom congrats you are now "that guy"
for the TL/DR dont be mean and knock mobs all over no matter what class you play the cleric phase isnt hard just dps the mobs when they spawn and dont let the erinyes charge the cleric its that simple
Comments
I am saying exactly that, also provide a Youtube video showing these 5 phases please.
there is no need for videos: you have 20 min for the raid, 2 min for head phase and some said 1 min for cleric phase. Even at 1.30 min for cleric phase you have 7.30 min for 5 cleric phases 10 min for head part and 2.30 min for first part = 20 min
I've had another that failed to clear the second, but that was probably down to people AFKing due to the shocking low DPS on display during the first Head phase.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
That little bit is just plain wrong. If a devil launch an attack animation near the cleric and the player move away (maybe even without moving), the damage will hit the cleric instead. So it's always preferable to have nothing on the cleric.
In all my Tiamat fights, there's never been an instance in which win or loss depends on speed of cleric phases. All my wins have been in three rounds or less. If we were unable to kill all the heads by end of round 3, then during round 4, some people begin to wait at campfire. Why? because they probably realize we lack dps to kill all 5 heads in one round. When more than a few players wait at campfire in a low dps instance, then there is no chance of winning, even if there were infinite rounds.
1. The next time you are in ToT, during the cleric phase note at the right where the dragon HP are during dragon phase you will see the Cleric HP bars instead.
2. Realize that when one of them is full every second the others are not (because they were not protecting the clerics as well) is a second you are all fighting mobs rather than fighting Tiamat. I have seen morethan a minute lost in this manner. This adds up.
3. Often enough the reason you did not reduce the heads fast enough is that you were wasting time (the S in DPS) on mobs and not Tiamat. During the cleric phase.
4. Look at it this way. If one cleric took and extra 30 seconds on the first 2 phases you have lost a full minute of fighting Tiamat. More than enough to take another head down to 15%. It's like debuffs the damage inflicted is less obvious. By and large an awful lot of people see Clerics as 'stuff we do waiting to fight Tiamat'. ]
5. This is not the only place you see common time wastage. Not splitting off on summoners also looses time. Often enough my group of 5 will kill 2 summoners and Modar is still up when we rush to Sevrin spawn.
Naturally raw DPS will mitigate most of this. If your timed entry actually works and you have a strong party this does not matter. Because likely you will just nuke the adds hence preventing the Clerics from taking any damage. But if you are in that situation tactical considerations do not matter. If you want to avoid people quitting early and gauranteeing a los you should while in Cleric phase:
1. Ignoire kills. What you want is to CC / aggro everything the instant it spawns.]
2. Aggro/ CC anything that does not get pinned on spawn.
3. Watch the overall health meters for clerics. If your Cleric is doing well and another is way behind in HP go there and assist. Following the methodology in 1&2.
Remember you are not simply defending the clerics. You are buying time for 25 players to reduce dragon heads. Do not:]
1. Fight on top of the Clerics. If one catches aggro engage then leave or engage at range. While killing mobs is not 'bad' what is preferable is having them attacking you and not the Clerics.
2. Use lots of big pushes. They do not have enough damage to gain aggro. Since the leap is essentially a ranged attack removing the mobs from the Clerics is useless unless you back it up with a heavier attack. Those HPs on the Clerics are huge and generate a lot of heal aggro.
3. Get too serious about what was a satire post to begin with. Really I thought that this was a known fact since Mod2 when splitshot HRs were dragging mobs halfway across the map. Thou shalt not scatter the mobs. Pretty sure Moses said that. I'm a half-decent CW when I feel like playing him but IT, ST, COI, and OF do a really decent job of controlling and hurting mobs without making them impossible for the rest of the party to fight. I hope Santa was good to you and try not to lose the mortgage on the Steam Winter dale (Dominions4 is at %25!!!!) I need to sleep.
There is only a 2-minute time window to kill all dragon heads. You can not "buy" more than 2 minutes per dragon head phase.
I just left an instance in which people were leaving after the first round.
The instance was only able to finish 1 1/2 dragon heads during the first round and then some people left.
Second cleric phase lasted many minutes, until I finally exited due to obvious fail.
We never progressed past the second cleric phase.
Your calculations assume that everyone will stay and fight during the entire 20 minutes, if needed, but this has never happened to me.
This is why Arcane Singularity used to be the focal point of every dungeon run. If you keep the Legion Devils and Erinyes in one place (preferably away from the clerics) and apply AOE control effects / debuffs then you can burn them down pretty easily. Knockbacks make it more likely that a mob will end up alone on the cleric because everyone is chasing the other mobs around and crowd control breaks down.
I managed to fox shift off a ledge at the dragon head when someone decided to throw the devil over the edge..
First thing that came to mind was, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, then proceeded to fall to my doom.
Yeah and people stopped using sing because they lowered the target numbers. But in Tiamat the spawns are pretty small so sing still can grab the whole spawn.
I did not read all of the answers, so sorry if it was already wrote.
Instead of using Ice Storm and/or Singu (it interupts Shard and Sudden Storm) just use OF. CC time is the same or even longer than IS one, it gives you more dmg and lot of lifesteal.
If you put so much effort on rankings, I just ussualy ends at top 5 at 20k+ raids and top 2 at other ones.
Peace
Furious Immolation is BIS. It pulls instead of push, dazzles for longer and debuffs well.
But if you went the party weaker paragon, OF looks quite better choice than singu and, obiously, IS.
At least as HR you can dodge back to land. Cannot count how many times my gf lunged off of a cliff. You see the push as you start the animation and all you can do is grab ankles.....
11% of 16,500,000 = 1,815,000 x 5 heads = 9,075,000 total health remaining.
9,075,000 / 25 = 363,000 damage each party member must deal
363,000 / 60 seconds = 6,050 DPS required of each party member to complete all 5 heads in a single round.
Notice the 60 seconds. That assumes of the 120 seconds given that not only are you wasting time traveling between heads (30s) but you are also dying and waiting the 15s res timer without getting ressed, releasing, and then running back from the camp fire at some point during the round.
Without deaths and only traveling you need 4k DPS per player to complete tiamat.
4k DPS. That's zerging so 4k DPS after full debuffs/buffs, maybe 1-2k DPS before buff/debuff. If you were arguing that level 32 characters with 2.5k GS shouldn't be allowed in Tiamat then sure, 4k DPS would be a hurdle that many level 32 characters would struggle to overcome. But really, come on. 10k GS = 8-10k DPS.
Tactics non zerg (travel time only from clerics to dragon head, 10s) would need 3k DPS after a much smaller number of buff/debuff, probably 2.5k DPS before buff/debuff.
You people are drastically overestimating how important DPS is to Tiamat. A lack of it cannot cause you to fail, other than discouragement causing the zone to /afk.
There really are only 3 things that causes a Tiamat fail:
1) Bugged instance, cannot progress.
2) wasting time during cleric phase ie throwing mobs.
3) People giving up and logging/AFKing.
I included that last one only because that judgement happens so quickly now. People give up on anything that isn't a guaranteed 2 round win. Primarily because Linu's aren't as scarce now, most people who farm tia have their offhands/necks and 6th boon+ already, and simply don't want to deal with the aggravation.
Most people wait until the first head round is complete before giving up, but not because they just now realize they won't have the DPS. It is the combination of wasting time causing cleric phase to take too long, combined with the lack of DPS that makes them realize the instance is "hopeless" or at least, not worth the effort to pull out a win. More and more often people are realizing the instance is lost during the first cleric phase or even before during summoners, and not even waiting til the first head phase.
People who are bad at clerics are also usually bad at DPS. There is a correlation there, which has been (somewhat falsely) linked to low GS. Then you have people whiteknighting all those poor misunderstood 10k players.
The truth is that 90% of 10k people are "bad." There are a select handful of highly skilled people that are miraculously somehow still 10k, but it is rare.
Now don't be too offended, 90% of ALL players are "bad". It's just that those with more gear can obfuscate their terrible play and pull it off being bad the whole time. That's what happens when you have 2 years and 5 mods worth of incredible power creep combined with the devs nerfing the difficulty of all dungeons down to joke levels. Most players are bad at PVE simply because you've never really needed to be all that good anyway, and especially not since mod 1.
look at ACT of your tiamat fights, and you'll find that <8 players (usually about 5-6) do 60% of the damage in tiamat. Ignore the cleric phase ppl are too far apart to capture all the logs.
It doesn't matter the average GS of the instance, whether it was timed run with friends/guild/channel or random enter. Most players are fodder. If you happen to get in an amazing instance where 15 or more players are pulling their weight then; in high GS instance, it's a 1 rounder. in not so high GS instance, it's over in the first 45 seconds of round 2, most of that being travel time.
I don't know, I think you can have a lack of dps even if it's rare. I've done a total of one tiamat where the black head just barely went down and that was with everyone at the head. No other heads were prepped during that phase. Considering some of the powers I saw being fired off though, I think that it was a matter of people with no idea loading all the wrong powers, rather than gear.
wow I have had 12 standard drinks ie 6 beers and 4 wines and still finish in top 7 in Timat not GS but abilitly noobs sorry
Urlord
Yeah well, you got lucky. I cannot tell you how many times I ended up in the pits of Tiamat from that darn Ice Storm.
Legion Devil # 1032
Legion Devil #1032 you are an insolent worm. If you weren't so weak you would just teleport yourself back up. Get back up there and kill that wizard, or I will torture you for all eternity.
Tiamat
Not True. I am 48-8. First 3 times running Tiamat was a failure, as people were stilll learning what to do.
The other 5 failure come from
3 bugged instances
2 lack of DPS.
There are only 2 conditions people should be using knockbacks:
1. Clearing mobs off of the clerics.
2. Knocking mobs off the map so the fall to their death.
Outside of that they are just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over their team mates.
For those that may not have noticed, the female mobs have a ranged charge and it hurts squishy classes pretty bad.
Oppressive Force (for CW) will keep the mobs from doing damage about as long as Ice Storm (due to CC), and keeps the mobs pretty closely grouped, and creates massive agro so the mobs want to group, and makes everyone near you not want to chew glass.
Go team Tiamat!
during the cleric phase I usually hang out near where the demons spawn if its an outside cleric then I stand toward the middle cleric facing the cliff on the white or black head side. when they spawn I FLS them down this intterups the erinyes charge at the cleric and gets the attention of the other demons I TR to mark them all then come and get it to gather them and IBS them. as I move through their ranks smacking them about with my sword I move closer to the ledge incase any DC or CW wants to push them off or burn them ect...
where the problem comes in is when I knock them down and charge in to gather them with CAGI there is always that one dude who shifts in and BOOM ICE STORM and they go flying like popcorn in every direction, usually back behind the red line where you take damage from tiamat making only ranged able to hit them so they get aggro and when the erinyes charge and the others tele behind them and kill the ranged. so I gather up the adds pick up my fallen comrade and blam friggin IS again!!!
here are some things people need to know about the cleric phase.
1. when adds spawn erinyes are the most dangerous because of their charge cc them, knock them over, slow them stun them, tell them a funny story just get their attention immediately the other demons not so much just hit them once and they will leave the cleric alone
2. if you have hit the demons you have aggro (unless somone else marks or hits them harder) THEY WILL NOT HIT THE CLERIC!
even if you are standing right on top of them their attacks are direct damage not aoe they will not "miss you and hit the cleric"
I have been in a fail tiamat and tested this while everyone was crying at the campfire I gathered all the adds on one cleric and stood there right on top of it and the cleric never fell over everything was attacking me.
to my CW friends out there IS and repel are not bad spells they are just situational if you are CW throw down an IT to slow them and wait a sec let the melee get their attention if they are any good they can drag them to the edge and boom repel and IS your little magical balls off
if you really wanna be effective though and your melees are a bunch of window lickers use OF or FI (also works well if you have high dps melee and they are just burning them)
to my GWFs and GFs you can be a CW too if you FLS at the wrong time if the mobs are in the air after being FLS by another player if you FLS they are gonna fly farther and boom congrats you are now "that guy"
for the TL/DR dont be mean and knock mobs all over no matter what class you play the cleric phase isnt hard just dps the mobs when they spawn and dont let the erinyes charge the cleric its that simple
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance