1. As a participant of NW_Legit_Community, let me share I've encountered no one in the channel defending < 13K GS players in Tiamat. While they are typically against GS discussions as a whole, they use a timer because we know Tiamat is a pure DPS race.
2. The person defending the 10K player who asked questions..... please consider that every 13K GS player in the instance of the 10K player who was nice and asking questions probably (not guaranteed, but probably) carried the 10K person.
My personal opinion is that before anyone does Tiamat, they get into T2 gear (which for now can be purchased on AH easily enough cheaply enough) or through dungeon runs where they do learn communication, cooperation, coordination. Then they should work on the boons required for IWD, and once that's done they should do well enough in Tiamat even if they were 12.x K just being shy of 13K GS.
1. As a participant of NW_Legit_Community, let me share I've encountered no one in the channel defending < 13K GS players in Tiamat. While they are typically against GS discussions as a whole, they use a timer because we know Tiamat is a pure DPS race.
Hey, i am "No One"! nice to meet you
For all the time i;ve been there i have never seen anyone kicked/ verbally abused by a grp for his GS or the any other reason, minus extremely rude behavior.
1. As a participant of NW_Legit_Community, let me share I've encountered no one in the channel defending < 13K GS players in Tiamat. While they are typically against GS discussions as a whole, they use a timer because we know Tiamat is a pure DPS race.
2. The person defending the 10K player who asked questions..... please consider that every 13K GS player in the instance of the 10K player who was nice and asking questions probably (not guaranteed, but probably) carried the 10K person.
My personal opinion is that before anyone does Tiamat, they get into T2 gear (which for now can be purchased on AH easily enough cheaply enough) or through dungeon runs where they do learn communication, cooperation, coordination. Then they should work on the boons required for IWD, and once that's done they should do well enough in Tiamat even if they were 12.x K just being shy of 13K GS.
While I also would not recommend <13kgs in Tiamat I also think that 10kgs could be done. It's just a matter of at that level the player would need to be very very very skilled which most the time is not true as 10kgs tend to be newer players.
The requirements for entry to Tiamat's must be raised because of the level of frustration it causes the other players. I've seen really bad 20k gear score players and really good 10k gear score players and it doesn't matter. What matters is the level of frustration caused to long time players of the game trying to advance their characters being confronted with a challenge that requires participation with players that may have never done a dungeon delve and know very little about the game.
The problem is the lack of testing that is done by developers and the reliance on the NeverWinter community to test the problems with the game and have them resolved after implementation. Hire more QA people. Run a big beta test before each Mod. Please do something so the players don't get frustrated and quit the game because of the changes that are implemented with many bugs.
I would very simply make the requirement to enter Tiamat's a "Dungeon Master" title. That would fix every1 griping about gear score being enough or not. You can not have a "Dungeon Master" title in this game and not know how to run a dungeon with a party.
For those that really think a 10K group can be done, please put your actions where your words are and make it happen.
Honestly I'd love to but it can't happen without a full born 25man queue system. My opinion on 25 players at 10kgs being able to do it is theoretical because of that. The day Cryptic makes a 25man queue system I'll start working on putting it together.
you are trying to justify low GS participation
but the main problem is the reward
I don't understand why there is a requirement for every dungeon, yet to the hardest one, there is nothing
on top of that even the reward for failing is better then any other dungeon (1/10 I get dragon egg, and even with today prices its better then any T1,T2 dumgeon reward)
the well of the dragon massively drop T1 set, and tiamat T2 sets (+ enchants + shards...)
at the end any new player with 10K join in and try his luck
some even go afk waiting for the chance of dragon egg or shard
unless they completely remove the reward for failing
+ remove all T1/T2 drops
+remove all enchants (same thing you did in IWD)
maybe then, the new players will go for other dungeons to farm the gear, shards etc.
so far its the best place to farm no matter what GS you have and ppl try to justify it on EXCEL sheet
even if you are AFK its better place for reward then any other dungeon...
The point of the test was to look at charonunus' idea of setting a median of expected DPS to considering a person of ANY Gear Score as "pulling" their weight as 1/25 of the damage needed to clear Tiamat by the window of opportunity for an average group. That is a reasonable expectation and one that groups have been using since Beta. A little above or below is not the concern; people who are outliers to this (10K v 16K) and their statistical distribution are the reason why an instance can or can not pass the DPS check.
I have a debuff-buff Cleric and I highly enjoy that role. But when you tell a 10K T1-gear Player with a low damage weapon that *I* will raise their DPS level to clear content, that is bad and unmerited advice. I have at this point zoned in as the only Cleric in HP gear. What happens if I disconnect? Debuff and buffs are unpredictable in their effects on Player DPS, and exist to balance out the negative effects on an instance for which you can't forsee: lag, bots, someone's baby wakes up. They are insurance. Expecting them to carry a group through an instance is like buying a lottery ticket to pay your mortgage. You aren't supposed to buy a house if your income can't afford it.
People in 10 K T1 gear can zone into an instance where there are fewer people below the damage median than above it, and have the instance succeed. The instance doesn't succeed because of them, it succeeds because other people make up the difference. I've carried plenty of people, and plenty of entire instances, in epic dungeons. The problem is when people are lead to believe that this isn't the case.
People need honest and constructive feedback about their performance and their actual group contribution. "Listening" and avoiding bad encounter choices, or not bugging the instance, isn't enough. EToS: you must be able to out damage her heal. MC or VT: your Dailies must clear Valindra. If Valindra takes my Cleric, there's nothing (besides my SoulForged) between us (in a low GS group) and a wipe but the *base damage* a Player can do with their Daily without me. "Listening" does not increase the base damage of your Ice Knife. And in ToT, everything comes down to the 2 minute segment where your instance chooses to push beyond that last 10% and kill. Debuffs/buffs that are multiplicative on your base damage and can't increase something that you don't provide.
The problem we have in our community right now (as compared to beta) is the number of people who don't actually know how to calculate either damage or how debuffs/buffs stack and parrot bad information. And no matter how many times they get called out for it never learn a measure of humility. Also that people should not be open to improvement that involves increasing one's GS. And also that not being blind to a player's continued bad decisions is itself a form of immorality; a player who makes a series of repeated and avoidable bad decisions is a bad player, whether it's a Cleric who thinks HP is the measure of being useful or a Cleric who uses Sunburst as an indiscriminate and continual knockback.
Now I will confess to a certain economic interest in no one listening to me. I have a not too small stash of Artifact gear and ToD books that will inflate enormously in price if this instance collapses once success rates fall beyond a certain point. And yet... here I am... trying to talk about a basic level that players should gear to meet to pass ToT enough in order to keep me poor.
As a final point to this recap, I will point out that Legit Community is running this merely as a community, and like every other subculture, has a right to pick a Q timer. I go in with another Q timer group. This is more an end result of bad game design, than it was an intentional selection against 10K people. The only problem with Legit is the notion that one form of strategy or another is a means of "cheating" or that Tactics is the "legit" means to beat Tiamat. No one is under the floor or skipping half the fight. There's no cheating in either Tactics or Zerg, and the game environment doesn't need unnecessary poison.
Leave that to the Gift Ninjas.
0
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2014
Fuel for the fire.
This is from a timed entry run (legit community) that had 10 or so legit members and the rest were randoms. There weren't many if any players of notably high GS. average from those I was able to inspect was around 14-15k. This instance won in round 3 with about 45 seconds of that round left to spare.
Can you guess which of the 25 characters listed in green hit level 60 a grand total of 8 minutes before this Tiamat run, equipped whatever I happened to have found, gear wise, from previous Tiamat runs on other characters (incomplete T2 set, mismatched T2 weapons), and then equipped 2 rank 5 enchants (silvery from quests) a rank 3 radiant, and then 2 rank 1 radiants in order to reach 10k required GS?
hint, it's comfortably above the alleged 10k DPS requirement for completion (which is determined entirely on number of rounds given to fight tiamat, which is determined entirely by how dumb your instance is being during the cleric phase).
caveats:
(1) ACT only parses what is in your combat log, which is limited by range. Thus characters out of range of the character running ACT will not be entirely accurate. about 47% of the damage dealt is during the cleric phase rather than head phase, and since this character was camped near linu, not all combat entries from the other 2 clerics would be captured. This was a standard zerg (no split) thus nearly all combat entries on Tiamat herself was captured.
*except when I was dead and running back in the 3rd round, I missed about 10 seconds of combat on tiamat.
(2) This character was using a perfect Vorpal enchantment I had since I leveled with it. This post isn't meant to show what the average 10k gs character can do, i'm far from your average brand new 60 in terms of experience, skill, and gear. This is my 9th level 60 character. Nevertheless, you can reduce my DPS by 13.7% that the p. vorpal increases it by (i have lol crit, 10k gs remember?)
(3) in addition to the weapon enchant, this character had several account unlocks/packs that you would not expect a random 10k gs character to have, including a blue erinyes (5% crit sev from warlock pack), a ring of xvim (BtA twink ring), and ring of dragonslayer (~800 dps vs tiamat) from the dragonborn pack. All other gear not specified is either green or blue level 50-57 questing drops. shirt/pants are the greys you get at level 1. No buff potions of any kind were used (neither stat potions or dragon slaying/scrolls of warding) cus I didn't have any. This character doesn't have an augment pet or any other pet of note.
PS: Please take the above with a grain of salt. I didn't do this for science or to prove anything, I did it for the lulz. Some players in legit were concerned/upset that I had even brought this character as they knew I had just reached level 60. I had no idea what the outcome would be, and told them to suck it up and carry me. It wasn't until after the run was completed that someone else pointed out to me that I was 5th overall dmg according to their ACT. So I compared it against my own parses to confirm it.
This is from a timed entry run (legit community) that had 10 or so legit members and the rest were randoms. There weren't many if any players of notably high GS. average from those I was able to inspect was around 14-15k. This instance won in round 3 with about 45 seconds of that round left to spare.
[...]
I can see my name (Persefone) as the top DPS although it's a bit low to be honest.
From my personal experience, most failures are from:
a) People bugging the instance. Mostly because the go for Tiamat before the clerics say their phrase, some other because they attack a head before it has emerged.
b) People standing over the clerics.
c) People absolutely under geared expecting other players kill Tiamat.
d) People camping at campfire because they will get a reward no matter if it's a success or a fail.
From my point of view Tiamat needs either a high GS requirement or a enabled party system.
With a higher GS requirement many under geared players would be out, although taking into account that you can buy full top T2 equipment for 60K-100K, and full T1 equipment for under 20K, it's trivial reaching 13K GS.
With a party system, if you carry a member in your party that it's under geared or unskilled it's because all other 4 members can compensate it.
PS: I do usually run Tiamat with ACT enabled and from my experience, about 60% of total damage is done by 4-8 players.
PS2: Tiamat should be way harder, actually is a 5 headed Piñana and that's really sad for a top game skirmish/raid.
Comments
2. The person defending the 10K player who asked questions..... please consider that every 13K GS player in the instance of the 10K player who was nice and asking questions probably (not guaranteed, but probably) carried the 10K person.
My personal opinion is that before anyone does Tiamat, they get into T2 gear (which for now can be purchased on AH easily enough cheaply enough) or through dungeon runs where they do learn communication, cooperation, coordination. Then they should work on the boons required for IWD, and once that's done they should do well enough in Tiamat even if they were 12.x K just being shy of 13K GS.
Hey, i am "No One"! nice to meet you
For all the time i;ve been there i have never seen anyone kicked/ verbally abused by a grp for his GS or the any other reason, minus extremely rude behavior.
While I also would not recommend <13kgs in Tiamat I also think that 10kgs could be done. It's just a matter of at that level the player would need to be very very very skilled which most the time is not true as 10kgs tend to be newer players.
The problem is the lack of testing that is done by developers and the reliance on the NeverWinter community to test the problems with the game and have them resolved after implementation. Hire more QA people. Run a big beta test before each Mod. Please do something so the players don't get frustrated and quit the game because of the changes that are implemented with many bugs.
I would very simply make the requirement to enter Tiamat's a "Dungeon Master" title. That would fix every1 griping about gear score being enough or not. You can not have a "Dungeon Master" title in this game and not know how to run a dungeon with a party.
Honestly I'd love to but it can't happen without a full born 25man queue system. My opinion on 25 players at 10kgs being able to do it is theoretical because of that. The day Cryptic makes a 25man queue system I'll start working on putting it together.
To do this experiment properly, we have to get random 10k GS players from zone chat. We have to factor in the caliber of players behind those toons.
but the main problem is the reward
I don't understand why there is a requirement for every dungeon, yet to the hardest one, there is nothing
on top of that even the reward for failing is better then any other dungeon (1/10 I get dragon egg, and even with today prices its better then any T1,T2 dumgeon reward)
the well of the dragon massively drop T1 set, and tiamat T2 sets (+ enchants + shards...)
at the end any new player with 10K join in and try his luck
some even go afk waiting for the chance of dragon egg or shard
unless they completely remove the reward for failing
+ remove all T1/T2 drops
+remove all enchants (same thing you did in IWD)
maybe then, the new players will go for other dungeons to farm the gear, shards etc.
so far its the best place to farm no matter what GS you have and ppl try to justify it on EXCEL sheet
even if you are AFK its better place for reward then any other dungeon...
The point of the test was to look at charonunus' idea of setting a median of expected DPS to considering a person of ANY Gear Score as "pulling" their weight as 1/25 of the damage needed to clear Tiamat by the window of opportunity for an average group. That is a reasonable expectation and one that groups have been using since Beta. A little above or below is not the concern; people who are outliers to this (10K v 16K) and their statistical distribution are the reason why an instance can or can not pass the DPS check.
I have a debuff-buff Cleric and I highly enjoy that role. But when you tell a 10K T1-gear Player with a low damage weapon that *I* will raise their DPS level to clear content, that is bad and unmerited advice. I have at this point zoned in as the only Cleric in HP gear. What happens if I disconnect? Debuff and buffs are unpredictable in their effects on Player DPS, and exist to balance out the negative effects on an instance for which you can't forsee: lag, bots, someone's baby wakes up. They are insurance. Expecting them to carry a group through an instance is like buying a lottery ticket to pay your mortgage. You aren't supposed to buy a house if your income can't afford it.
People in 10 K T1 gear can zone into an instance where there are fewer people below the damage median than above it, and have the instance succeed. The instance doesn't succeed because of them, it succeeds because other people make up the difference. I've carried plenty of people, and plenty of entire instances, in epic dungeons. The problem is when people are lead to believe that this isn't the case.
People need honest and constructive feedback about their performance and their actual group contribution. "Listening" and avoiding bad encounter choices, or not bugging the instance, isn't enough. EToS: you must be able to out damage her heal. MC or VT: your Dailies must clear Valindra. If Valindra takes my Cleric, there's nothing (besides my SoulForged) between us (in a low GS group) and a wipe but the *base damage* a Player can do with their Daily without me. "Listening" does not increase the base damage of your Ice Knife. And in ToT, everything comes down to the 2 minute segment where your instance chooses to push beyond that last 10% and kill. Debuffs/buffs that are multiplicative on your base damage and can't increase something that you don't provide.
The problem we have in our community right now (as compared to beta) is the number of people who don't actually know how to calculate either damage or how debuffs/buffs stack and parrot bad information. And no matter how many times they get called out for it never learn a measure of humility. Also that people should not be open to improvement that involves increasing one's GS. And also that not being blind to a player's continued bad decisions is itself a form of immorality; a player who makes a series of repeated and avoidable bad decisions is a bad player, whether it's a Cleric who thinks HP is the measure of being useful or a Cleric who uses Sunburst as an indiscriminate and continual knockback.
Now I will confess to a certain economic interest in no one listening to me. I have a not too small stash of Artifact gear and ToD books that will inflate enormously in price if this instance collapses once success rates fall beyond a certain point. And yet... here I am... trying to talk about a basic level that players should gear to meet to pass ToT enough in order to keep me poor.
As a final point to this recap, I will point out that Legit Community is running this merely as a community, and like every other subculture, has a right to pick a Q timer. I go in with another Q timer group. This is more an end result of bad game design, than it was an intentional selection against 10K people. The only problem with Legit is the notion that one form of strategy or another is a means of "cheating" or that Tactics is the "legit" means to beat Tiamat. No one is under the floor or skipping half the fight. There's no cheating in either Tactics or Zerg, and the game environment doesn't need unnecessary poison.
Leave that to the Gift Ninjas.
This is from a timed entry run (legit community) that had 10 or so legit members and the rest were randoms. There weren't many if any players of notably high GS. average from those I was able to inspect was around 14-15k. This instance won in round 3 with about 45 seconds of that round left to spare.
click if too small to read
Can you guess which of the 25 characters listed in green hit level 60 a grand total of 8 minutes before this Tiamat run, equipped whatever I happened to have found, gear wise, from previous Tiamat runs on other characters (incomplete T2 set, mismatched T2 weapons), and then equipped 2 rank 5 enchants (silvery from quests) a rank 3 radiant, and then 2 rank 1 radiants in order to reach 10k required GS?
hint, it's comfortably above the alleged 10k DPS requirement for completion (which is determined entirely on number of rounds given to fight tiamat, which is determined entirely by how dumb your instance is being during the cleric phase).
caveats:
(1) ACT only parses what is in your combat log, which is limited by range. Thus characters out of range of the character running ACT will not be entirely accurate. about 47% of the damage dealt is during the cleric phase rather than head phase, and since this character was camped near linu, not all combat entries from the other 2 clerics would be captured. This was a standard zerg (no split) thus nearly all combat entries on Tiamat herself was captured.
*except when I was dead and running back in the 3rd round, I missed about 10 seconds of combat on tiamat.
(2) This character was using a perfect Vorpal enchantment I had since I leveled with it. This post isn't meant to show what the average 10k gs character can do, i'm far from your average brand new 60 in terms of experience, skill, and gear. This is my 9th level 60 character. Nevertheless, you can reduce my DPS by 13.7% that the p. vorpal increases it by (i have lol crit, 10k gs remember?)
(3) in addition to the weapon enchant, this character had several account unlocks/packs that you would not expect a random 10k gs character to have, including a blue erinyes (5% crit sev from warlock pack), a ring of xvim (BtA twink ring), and ring of dragonslayer (~800 dps vs tiamat) from the dragonborn pack. All other gear not specified is either green or blue level 50-57 questing drops. shirt/pants are the greys you get at level 1. No buff potions of any kind were used (neither stat potions or dragon slaying/scrolls of warding) cus I didn't have any. This character doesn't have an augment pet or any other pet of note.
PS: Please take the above with a grain of salt. I didn't do this for science or to prove anything, I did it for the lulz. Some players in legit were concerned/upset that I had even brought this character as they knew I had just reached level 60. I had no idea what the outcome would be, and told them to suck it up and carry me. It wasn't until after the run was completed that someone else pointed out to me that I was 5th overall dmg according to their ACT. So I compared it against my own parses to confirm it.
I can see my name (Persefone) as the top DPS
From my personal experience, most failures are from:
a) People bugging the instance. Mostly because the go for Tiamat before the clerics say their phrase, some other because they attack a head before it has emerged.
b) People standing over the clerics.
c) People absolutely under geared expecting other players kill Tiamat.
d) People camping at campfire because they will get a reward no matter if it's a success or a fail.
From my point of view Tiamat needs either a high GS requirement or a enabled party system.
With a higher GS requirement many under geared players would be out, although taking into account that you can buy full top T2 equipment for 60K-100K, and full T1 equipment for under 20K, it's trivial reaching 13K GS.
With a party system, if you carry a member in your party that it's under geared or unskilled it's because all other 4 members can compensate it.
PS: I do usually run Tiamat with ACT enabled and from my experience, about 60% of total damage is done by 4-8 players.
PS2: Tiamat should be way harder, actually is a 5 headed Piñana and that's really sad for a top game skirmish/raid.