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Tiamat DPS Test Redux: 10K GS vs. 16K GS, DC and CW
odd111out
Member Posts: 173 Arc User
Tiamat DPS Test Redux: 10K GS vs. 16K GS, AC Devoted Cleric and SS Control Wizard
I was really intrigued by charononus' thread: 10kgs-dps-test-can-a-10kgs-character-pull-their-weight-in-tiamat. I did appreciate his effort while at the same time I think his attempt was too flawed to support the conclusions he reached. So I decided to take a little break from ice fishing....
I'll stick with his data that each head = 16.4 million HP, for a total of 82 million HP for Tiamat. I will diverge however in the time allotted for actual damage on each head. After tracking time spent actually damaging Tiamat in 10, 3 round clears, I found it averaged to about 5 minutes and that about 60 seconds gets lost in transit. I always zerged, always took the Red Gem, always did Linu. There will of course be some variance in the actual ToT. I will also set the player capacity in the Zone at 25.
So the DPS threshold I would rather argue at: 82000000/25 = 3280000 per / 5 min = 10,933 DPS.
I took the 2 Characters that I have been farming Tiamat on: my Anointed Champion Righteous DC and my SS Thaumaturge CW. First I ran a 5 minute basic DPS test against Dummies in Trade of Blades in their current gear. Both have cleared PvE content up to the last boon in IWD and the first three Boons in ToD. Sorry, just can't get too excited about mining 200 black ice everyday. They have 3 Epic Artifacts each, but no Legendary anything. I have their Artifact sets but the thought of leveling them that far is not as exciting as ice fishing.
Then I took each character and created a fresh T1 version of themselves, without Boons and in appropriate T1 gear & weapons. I think it's a flawed approach to simply unslot to that level, since I can easily do so without sacrificing weapon damage or much in the way of Power. Either I burned Seals for their gear or bought T1 versions of what they had on from the AH and hauled it over to Preview. For each, the stat distribution remained largely the same.
I did not slot either with a weapon enchantment, gave them one appropriate blue level Artifact, and unsummoned my Stones. My other Companions are Defense/Regen so I didn't bother to unslot any of them. I left Remedy in her High Prophet gear since it is T1. I slotted for Rank 5s on each exclusively for Power. And then I ran both of them in another set of 5 minute DPS tests.
The purpose of the test isn't to encompass people with horrible builds or bad gear choices per se, but to compare and contrast the difference between where each of my characters were after about a week of being a level 60, and where they are now, more than a year later. It is meant to be a fair assessment of what the distance between 10K and 16K actually measures out to be. How much weight can each of them actually pull?
Some assumptions have to be made: 1. No Gem Failures. 2. No death to Adds. 3. I don't die in the jump between platforms. But those assumptions will be held for both the 10K and the 16K. I chose 3 rounds over a possible 4 round clear because the majority of 4th rounds I've seen have failed, and running it that close is like planning on 2 rounds of casket clears at the end of VT.
Issues of survivability are also set aside in the interest of focusing on Tiamat as a DPS check.
End Results: Applied to a standard of 10,933 DPS?
T1-DC Remedy: 8,933 DPS
ToD Remedy: 11,380 DPS
T1-CW Ursuilyn: 7,126 DPS
ToD Ursuilyn: 12,689 DPS
Conclusions:
No one in T1 gear and a basic Epic weapon can pull their weight in Tiamat. Heck, even by charononus' much more lax standard of 9,111 DPS... still no luck. No one should be zoning into an instance expecting the rest of the Party to buff their damage by more than 15% just to squeak by.
** Break Down of Weapons and Gear in Following Posts **
I was really intrigued by charononus' thread: 10kgs-dps-test-can-a-10kgs-character-pull-their-weight-in-tiamat. I did appreciate his effort while at the same time I think his attempt was too flawed to support the conclusions he reached. So I decided to take a little break from ice fishing....
I'll stick with his data that each head = 16.4 million HP, for a total of 82 million HP for Tiamat. I will diverge however in the time allotted for actual damage on each head. After tracking time spent actually damaging Tiamat in 10, 3 round clears, I found it averaged to about 5 minutes and that about 60 seconds gets lost in transit. I always zerged, always took the Red Gem, always did Linu. There will of course be some variance in the actual ToT. I will also set the player capacity in the Zone at 25.
So the DPS threshold I would rather argue at: 82000000/25 = 3280000 per / 5 min = 10,933 DPS.
I took the 2 Characters that I have been farming Tiamat on: my Anointed Champion Righteous DC and my SS Thaumaturge CW. First I ran a 5 minute basic DPS test against Dummies in Trade of Blades in their current gear. Both have cleared PvE content up to the last boon in IWD and the first three Boons in ToD. Sorry, just can't get too excited about mining 200 black ice everyday. They have 3 Epic Artifacts each, but no Legendary anything. I have their Artifact sets but the thought of leveling them that far is not as exciting as ice fishing.
Then I took each character and created a fresh T1 version of themselves, without Boons and in appropriate T1 gear & weapons. I think it's a flawed approach to simply unslot to that level, since I can easily do so without sacrificing weapon damage or much in the way of Power. Either I burned Seals for their gear or bought T1 versions of what they had on from the AH and hauled it over to Preview. For each, the stat distribution remained largely the same.
I did not slot either with a weapon enchantment, gave them one appropriate blue level Artifact, and unsummoned my Stones. My other Companions are Defense/Regen so I didn't bother to unslot any of them. I left Remedy in her High Prophet gear since it is T1. I slotted for Rank 5s on each exclusively for Power. And then I ran both of them in another set of 5 minute DPS tests.
The purpose of the test isn't to encompass people with horrible builds or bad gear choices per se, but to compare and contrast the difference between where each of my characters were after about a week of being a level 60, and where they are now, more than a year later. It is meant to be a fair assessment of what the distance between 10K and 16K actually measures out to be. How much weight can each of them actually pull?
Some assumptions have to be made: 1. No Gem Failures. 2. No death to Adds. 3. I don't die in the jump between platforms. But those assumptions will be held for both the 10K and the 16K. I chose 3 rounds over a possible 4 round clear because the majority of 4th rounds I've seen have failed, and running it that close is like planning on 2 rounds of casket clears at the end of VT.
Issues of survivability are also set aside in the interest of focusing on Tiamat as a DPS check.
End Results: Applied to a standard of 10,933 DPS?
T1-DC Remedy: 8,933 DPS
ToD Remedy: 11,380 DPS
T1-CW Ursuilyn: 7,126 DPS
ToD Ursuilyn: 12,689 DPS
Conclusions:
No one in T1 gear and a basic Epic weapon can pull their weight in Tiamat. Heck, even by charononus' much more lax standard of 9,111 DPS... still no luck. No one should be zoning into an instance expecting the rest of the Party to buff their damage by more than 15% just to squeak by.
** Break Down of Weapons and Gear in Following Posts **
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Powers: Blessings of Battle, Sunburst, Divine Glow, Forgemaster's Flame, Guardian of Faith
T1 Remedy: 8,933 DPS
GS: 10,220 GS
Power: 3,625 (with BoB buff = 4169)
Gear: High Prophet
Weapon: Drake Symbol of the Miracle Healer
Artifact: Blue Bloodcrystal Raven Skull
ToD Remedy: 11,380 DPS
GS: 16,603
Power: 6339 (with BoB buff = 7124)
Gear Set: High Prophet (reinforced for Power, x4)
Weapon: Fomorian & Perfect Vorpal
Artifact: Epic DC Sigil
Powers: Eye of the Storm, Chilling Presence, Chilling Cloud, Icy Rays, Chill Strike, Conduit of Ice, Ray of Enfeeblement.
T1 Ursuilyn: 7,126 DPS
GS: 10,016
Power: 3626
Gear Set: Focal Magi
Weapon: Orb of the Archmage
Artifact: Blue Lantern of Revelation
ToD Ursuilyn: 12,689 DPS
GS: 16,906 GS
Power: 6221
Gear Set: Shadoweaver
Weapon: Fomorian & Greater Plague Fire
Artifact: Epic Lantern of Revelation
**Note: I'm not using High Vizer, as it's too great an assumption that you will always get to proc it in a 25 zerg with a dozen other HV geared CWs. Also, not using the DC Sigil as it means having a DC character far enough along to get it, which may not be a realistic goal when talking to new players about gearing a non-DC Main.**
i have 10 min for head part, with no time wasted on running or bad cleric phase so:
16.4 mil/(600*5) = 5466 dps
for a not so perfect run one have 8 min per head:
16.4 mil/(480*5)= 6833 dps
This sure is one unique raid to say the least.
However I do want to point out that for your CW test, you didn't use Storm Spell, and you picked possibly the worst T1 set (low power and terrible set bonus). So I think your CW DPS estimate is a bit lowballed.
And quite honestly I think everyone can agree that if you consider a completely unbuffed 10k character, then that character's DPS will be right on the edge of "average DPS" necessary for this fight, depending on the criteria you choose to apply.
However I would argue that the standard of comparing a character's hypothetical unbuffed DPS against the average DPS is not the right standard to use. Because everyone is buffed in this fight due to the buffs that everyone else is applying.
For instance if you just consider the High Prophet buff, the TR's Wicked Reminder buff, and the GF's Mark buff, those three alone constitute a DPS increase of 63%. Which is nontrivial.
And there's going to be a ton of other buffs and debuffs present. That is why you get amusing things like abaddon's signature showing an Ice Knife hit of 1.6 million. Now I know abaddon plays an OP CW, but I think for a hit of 1.6 mill, he must have had just a leeeetle bit of help from his friends.
So yes, the "paltry" 7126 DPS is going to be buffed to the sky, probably by at least a factor of 200%. EVERYONE'S DPS is buffed to the sky. That is why the zerg method works.
But more fundamentally, I really have a problem with this:
This is a group effort! We are all buffing each other. We are ALL depending on everyone else's buffs "just to squeak by". Do you think a raid composed of even 16k players could do it without any buffs at all? With just raw power alone? I don't think so.
But at this point I don't think anyone is going to be persuaded one way or another by the numbers. At this point I think the difference is more fundamental.
I see people arguing that the minimum GS should be 13k because that's what it is for Lostmauth. But IMO that is just arguing from authority. Maybe Lostmauth shouldn't have a GS requirement of 13k either. Heck, maybe none of the level-60 content should have a GS requirement at all! Why not make it open to everyone who wants to give it a shot? I think the only legitimate reason to have a GS requirement is to keep out the illegitimate players such as bots.
I do see people argue that 10k GS players just "don't belong" in Tiamat because that's the "end game". But level 60 content has very little of a forced progression, like the leveling up questing path does. Sharandar and Dread Ring and IWD are all also end game, but it's perfectly fine and reasonable for players to do all of those things simultaneously and not be forced to do one before the other (with the single exception of IWD - which IMO is a little silly to have a GS requirement for that, see above).
I see people arguing to exclude the 10k players because they want higher chances of success for themselves, because they have to grind so many linu favors to get their boons, and they want to maximize their chances of success every time they go into the raid, and having low GS players in there does, in general, make it more likely that the raid will fail for many reasons - NOT because low GS = bad player, that is false, but because the DPS is lower, and the survivability is also lower.
And I understand that argument. I don't like it when a raid fails either. But I just find the mindset too self-absorbed for my tastes. The game isn't all about me, other people are trying to get their boons too, including the 10k-12k players, and I don't mind helping them to the best of my abilities in helping them succeed as well. But that is just the mindset of a casual player? I don't know. In mod4 when everyone was complaining about "having to kill 5 dragons every day", I also didn't mind because I did not feel the need to progress so fast so as to kill every single dragon every day. Likewise here, I don't feel the need to rush through the content so fast, and to so optimize my chances of success in every single raid if it means actually kicking people out of the raid just so I can get MY boons faster. I will do 1 or 2 raids a day and slowly work towards getting the 6th and 7th boons. I don't feel the pressure of having to get that last boon so very very very quickly. If the occasional raid fails, then it fails.
I STILL don't understand why players want to rush through to the end of the content as fast as possible. It's going to be at least a month or two until the next module. You've got some time. And besides, if you don't get the last boon before the next module hits - so what?
But what irritates me the MOST is when raids fail because people just give up early. There absolutely ought to be a 1 min AFK penalty from the raid - 1 min of AFK and you're kicked out, and moreover you're banned from re-entering the raid for the next 6 hours.
I would like to point out something about your 15%. This item drops like candy, which means you'd need 5%. http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Greater_Potion_of_Dragon_Slaying.
Actually you'd need 50% from your testing on your cw so lets look at that.
High Prophet 8%
GPF (Someone will be using it) 9%
Potion of Greater Dragon Slaying 10%
NPNM SW offhand 1%
HV 6 %
(the next numbers come from http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?789851-Guide-To-The-PVE-quot-BBB-quot-%28Buff-Bot-Build%29-For-GFs-Mod-4-5)
Mark 8%
Tides of Iron 20%
Into the Fray 37.5%
KC armor 5% lets say
Which will put us well over 12k
The figures are from a Tiamat fight, or solo against a Blade vendor dummy?
It's in the ACT reports and the fourth paragraph of the OP that it was a training dummy.
There have been pages and pages of people not agreeing with that. It's just something you want.
High Prophet doesn't work that way. Especially for anyone in T1 Gear. How much it increases your damage depends on how much RI you have. Your T1 10k GS CW would need to stack about 2400 in Armor Pen to get the full benefit of High Prophet.
There is a difference between group cooperation in stacking debuffs and the expectation that others should compensate for a Player's lack of willingness to be geared enough to make a fair contribution to the instance. Otherwise the whole thing becomes a HAMSTER shot over whether too many low DPS Players have loaded in and it's a fail before the gate goes down. People who expect other people to win Tiamat for them just tend to doom everyone to 30 minutes of could-have-been-ice-fishing.
as your lack of willingness to accept the fact that there are more than 3 head phases, you put numbers down only to serve your own interest while casually ignoring the rest...
Getting beyond 3 head phases is pretty rare. I think 3 head phases is a good place for the theorycrafting.
no is not, is only their refusal to learn to play. I;ve done plenty of runs in legit with 4 phases... As for theorycraft i understand trying to find ways to have 5 phases hence increase my chance of doing it.
Let me put it to you this way. Every time the run might need 4 phases, half of the party disappears to the campfire to afk. Makes it impossible to get 4 phases. That's my experience anyways.
And breaks the constraint on both our tests against factors beyond a Player's control.
Otherwise, I'll just wipe all those numbers away with ten minutes of lag.
that is another story all together, but you cant start theorycraft based of false assumptions nor ask the devs to account for that when they have made the design for it.
Discussion is can a 10k GS pull their weight? Answer is : YES!
i can very well say that if you dont kill it in 1 round you dont have the GS for it.
Actually I stopped my math before getting to those things because I was already above the numbers I found. Since a player is not in the raid alone, counting the buffs and debuffs makes perfect sense to do. Since you put zerg in as your tactics plan, it would quite honestly astound me if in 25 people all of the buffs I listed weren't there from someone.
Three phases comes from the general method I've observed in over 100 Tiamat instances. I used to do Tactics but swapped to Zerging due to ... content design flaws. And I'm writing this for the general majority of successful Tiamat instances, which are three round clears. The 18K+ would scold you for thinking there's anything more than two rounds. I did not base my test off the DPS needed for that.
What there have been, are pages and pages of people crying after a failed raid and using low GS players as scapegoats. I don't consider these complaints to be valid, frankly.
The only QUANTITATIVE tests have shown that 10k GS is right about at the edge of "average DPS".
Yes yes I know. But there are more buffs than what I listed.
So a full T1 set is not "geared enough"? What is your objective rationale for drawing the line higher than that?
And this is turning out just like I said. Even when I point out all of the buffs and debuffs present that will raise a low GS player's output, you still object and insist on instead treating the low GS player as some sort of leech that wants to be carried along. Did it occur to you that the low GS player didn't ask for YOU to be in the raid either? Is anyone at a lower GS than you "just wanting to be carried"?
Look I get it, you just don't want lowbies in there because you're going to get your 80 linus and be done with it forever and the faster that can take place the better, and if you can get your 80 linus at the expense of lowbies who "don't belong anyway", then so be it.
The figures are irrelevant then. There has been many posts and charts about the cumulative effect of debuffs. A five-guy rainbow group sees its damage increased by ten. Not by five. By the way, without this cumulative debuffs effect, the ToD versions of the OP's chars would never kill Tiamat either.
1. Cleric time
2. Time from cleric area to heads
3. If you don't have enough defense stat you melt; dead players contribute 0 DPS
4. Armor pen... heads are epic bosses, correct? Need 20 to 24% armor pen to really have DPS impact. Correct?
The low GS (< 13K) will most likely have low defense, low armor pen, etc.... and those at that GS who boost those two then decrease other important stats as well. One starts the foundation of well rounding towards 13K, but often has a ways to go with some exceptions.
Thank you.
but if your party is 13k and you make one tiny mistake its faill
if you think you can make it with 10K party, why don't you try to arrange one and add the "tactical" "legit" color method
lets see were you get
10K ppl most likely have:
3% speed (probably 3% gold gain)
5 gold coin horse
22K hp
and the horst if at all weapon and armor enchant
no hard feeling, but unless you have 3-4 healer DC, most of the group wont survive the first phase
and if you have so many healers, expect serious bugs + HAMSTER DPS
Here comes the fact check.
Not ALL players are skilled.
There are lags.
There are likely whipes.
There are likely AFK players.
There are likely disconnects.
Why do ppl keep on with this theory crafting, when we did, combined, thousands of Tiamat runs. My expirience is, that timed ques with 10+ skilled high GS players is a win and random ques with a bunch of low GS players are a fail.
I twice qued 10-14 seconds before the timer ended. We had ~20 players. One was a epic fail, the other run, we almost killed the dragon in the second phase. One had a bunch of high GS players, one was a random Pug run. Guess who won.
As said before, I dont mind helping ppl, I did and I do it a lot. I DONT like, beenig FORCED to carry ppl to a victory, hoping there are enouh ppl to share the burden and failing, if not.
PS. One of the posts defending 10K GS and riding the horse of altuism talked about his NW legit runs. I conclude, that they use a que time, too. I dont know, what you would call it, but I call it double standard, if you use que timer, to get as much good players into your instance as possible and defend the 10k limit.
You can call it whatever you like, noone there is saying dont queue if you are a 10k GS, also the channel is open to everyone that can follow the rules....
Plz tell, why use a que timer, if it is totally ok, to run with 10k PuGs?
Because - once again - low GS is not the same as "bad player". I tend to use a queue timer when I do the Tiamat raid because I want to execute the raid with players who tend to know what they are doing, whether they are low GS or high GS. The queue timer that I tend to use is public and open to all.
Just today, a person joined my usual raid timer who was only 10k GS. (Had a full T1 set.) This person hadn't done Tiamat before. But this person was knowledgeable enough to ask questions ahead of time about what to do and how best to fulfill his/her role in the raid as best as he/she could. This person was not in my instance so I could not evaluate what this person did. But, the raid was indeed a success.
A whole lot of people here on the forums would look down upon this player and sneer that "oh, you only have 10k GS, that means you are an idiot player who just runs around and screws up and therefore I wish to keep you out of this raid". And it's just not true, at least in this person's case.
Because i want to play with people that are not GS fanatics, with people that dont feel "the need" to cheat to get things done and not the least to play with people that are able to read the chat for instructions.The community there is so big that by all means i am running with PuGs...
As a flavor: the first reason for a timer in legit was to avoid the zerg fest, unfortunately even there now is no longer possible.
While I salute NW legit for their work and what they do for the community, I see a kind of preselection in the que timer. I used it myself, but I dont claim, that Tiamat is doable with everyone. The only way to gate Tiamat by skill, would be to create a single person dungeon and making ppl comlete it, to be allowed to que for Tiamat. This will not happen.
As it is, there are multiple reasons, why the raid fails, as mentioned above. GS, is not everything, but it is at last some indicator on the time (sometimes money) someone spent playing the game. I think we can at last agree on the fact, that one and the same person will be more effective, if he or she gears the toon played up. I am not talking about GS pushing, but solid reasonable choices to boost ones abilities.
Tiamat does not allow ppl to play with premade groups, so you have to judge the book by its cover somehow. A few weeks ago a fresh lvl 60 SW joined the guild I run dngeons with. He had 8K GS. When we did dungeon runs his dmg was ca. a fifth of the dmg of my CW. He geared up fine tuned his char and now, with 15k+GS his dmg in ESOT is similar to the dmg of my CW (21k GS). While he was a good player with 8k GS, he died a lot and his contribution to the group was limited by his gear.
As it is, I would prefer to be able to select the ppl I run with. This is not going to happen, too. So I would prefer, that cryptic would limit the chance of failing, by a min GS higher than 10k, so at last the gear of the players i hae to group with does not limit them to much.
Even if NW legit does take ppl of all GS, you wont have quitters or AFK ppl, a random group would have to deal with. This ppl have to get carried, to win the fight. A 10k player cant do that.
What?
Then if Tiamat ever has a gs requirement, it should be way higher for CWs. Say, 20k.
Way to show, that you know your classes. CW: CC, AoE, HV debuff dps. Dps SW (without healing spec): single target dps and dps.
Dps SW is one of the highest single target dps classes, if played right. If their dps would not be higher, than similar CWs, what would be their use? Much of this dmg comes from a certain T2 set. In CN, SW would do much less dmg.
Going by your logic, GF and DC need even higher GS, screw their buffs and debuffs.
I love it, when ppl try to be smart and show, that they are ... .