At the end of the day you need to do 85M in damage to the dragon heads. I don't care how experienced and how good your build is, that just isn't going to happen with a group of 25 12k GS players. You need to stack buffs and debuffs and have proper enchants to get it done. Right now the vast majority of folks are getting carried.
I don't think its going to work either. People love to fantasize the lowly 12k GS player outperforming an 18k GS player. This doesn't usually happen. This rarely happens. Reality is, the numbers don't lie. Big gearscore differences produces too much variability in DPS to be overcome by skill.
Meh, I think people just want to have their monologue of how "elitism is destroying the community" and so they throw out these rare and weird exaggerations to cement their point.
Sorry that is not how it works. The score gets reset after each round and healing and damage taken count a whole lot more than DPS.
At the end of the day you need to do 85M in damage to the dragon heads. I don't care how experienced and how good your build is, that just isn't going to happen with a group of 25 12k GS players. You need to stack buffs and debuffs and have proper enchants to get it done. Right now the vast majority of folks are getting carried.
I guess u have had bad moments in ur tiamat's encounters?
Since the zerg idea popped up, all the encounters vs tiamat have been defeated in my instances and normally among those 25 players there are 10kg and 20kg people, 14k and 17kg being the most; and the low geared people have topped!. By zerging, u can make a perfect encounter, not matter how many low geared people there. As many have stated, the problem is in the cleric phases, people need to use prone and knock back effects and dont stand next to those clerics. There are many that dont know that, but the high geared people are worried more on yelling at and ditching their mates, instead of giving tips. At the end of the day is team work and dont pretend to take tiamats down in the 2nd round.
10k is fine. It's not about gear, it's about competency.
I'd rather have a 10k debuff DC than a 20k idiot on my team.
What I want to know is where do all of these competent 10k gsers come from and why can't they get a full set of anything with probably even rank 4s. They don't sound very competent to me.
I guess u have had bad moments in ur tiamat's encounters?
Since the zerg idea popped up, all the encounters vs tiamat have been defeated in my instances and normally among those 25 players there are 10kg and 20kg people. among 14k and 17kg being the most. and the low geared people have topped!. By zerging u can make a perfect encounter, not matter how many low geared people there. As many have stated, the problem is in the cleric phases, people need to use prone and knock back effects and dont stand next to those clerics. There are many that dont know that, but the high geared people are worried more on yelling at ditching their mates, isntead of giving tips. At the end of the day is team work and dont pretend to take tiamats down in the 2nd round.
The problem is not the cleric phases, those are just filler. You essentially get 3 rounds to take all the heads down and there is plenty of time for that. If you need a 4th there is very little chance of succeeding.
The vast majority of mine have succeeded (most failures were when it was bugged), many in the first round and some in the 2nd round. This was no thanks to the low GS folks that got carried as my group of 5 (before this patch when we actually were able to get 5 folks into the same instance) had to essentially take out 4 of the heads. I don't find it fun to have to carry 10-15 people. Since this patch we haven't been able to get a group into the same instance. Most are going to the 3rd round now.
Keep in mind as more and more of the 20k+ folks finish off their last boon they won't be in there anymore and it's going to get harder and harder. Then you will see just how little dps 12k GS folks really have.
The problem is not the cleric phases, those are just filler. You essentially get 3 rounds to take all the heads down and there is plenty of time for that. If you need a 4th there is very little chance of succeeding.
The vast majority of mine have succeeded (most failures were when it was bugged), many in the first round and some in the 2nd round. This was no thanks to the low GS folks that got carried as my group of 5 (before this patch when we actually were able to get 5 folks into the same instance) had to essentially take out 4 of the heads. I don't find it fun to have to carry 10-15 people. Since this patch we haven't been able to get a group into the same instance. Most are going to the 3rd round now.
Keep in mind as more and more of the 20k+ folks finish off their last boon they won't be in there anymore and it's going to get harder and harder. Then you will see just how little dps 12k GS folks really have.
and... by the time that happens the old 12k people will be 15k and such...
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited December 2014
Its not so hard to figure it out, all you need is... OVER 9000!!!
After doing some tests, I've changed my mind. 10kgs is all that is needed.
In a perfect optimized world yes. But sadly, we also have to account for that fact that these 10k GS players are also not exactly the brightest of the bunch in terms of using their skills or building their gear
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matiagronxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 251Arc User
edited December 2014
So why do the 10gs people have to enter tiamat? Wasnt Tiamat the latest endgame content? As another posted earlier, Cryptic wants high gs people to carry the low gs into an epic fight, only they failed so much that they DESTROYED ALL DUNGEON content by sending ALL PEOPLE to Tiamat fight. There was no reason to do it, it didnt help AT ALL any of the aspects of the game and it basically RUINED the whole experience for those that reached 60 lvl and was about to start participating in the game with dungeon farming/parties etc..
And of course noone from their side listens, noone says anything, not one question answered in a proper manner. It is just so annoying to give them so much in terms of time and money and getting back oneway decisions from people who are NOT participate in the game but rather see plain statistic numbers...
Cause they want everyone to have access to artifact gear that "needs" to be lvled to legendary I think we;ll have soon artifact armor sets put in the old t1/t2 dungeons
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
ppl i am still trying to understand what are you writing O.o
as i stated before the minimum DPS needed to defeat Tiamat in 4 windows is 8300 O.o assuming everything goes fine and all know what to do and when to do it!
10kgs CAN'T have 8300 DPS, stop writing about alt universes or fairy tales please!!
i have a 17,2kgs MoF CW renegade spekked, 4 art pcs (2 purple/2 blue), 3 manufacts (all purple), middle vorpal, real 83% crit (ACT test done); and i can reach 10000dps only after 8 secs when all my debuffs/buffs start working on the target..
yes ofcourse after those 8 secs i am appling buffs also to all my teamate and that helps out a lot, but the point is i am just fine for Tiamat!! not OP not exagerated, just FINE..
so in the end 10kgs random pugs party CAN'T do it, and if they win it's 'cose there were in some 17+kgs doing the main job (especially in the clerics phase)
regarding point system, as dmg taken count too, those 10kgs are allways on top just because they are defensless..imo they take huge amount of dmgs.
Thanks for providing a perfect example of GS being no replacement for competence.
10k dps at 10.5kgs with no buffs, debuffs, potions, etc.
maybe another question that reflects reality..
would a character with that many boons, and type of build really be using gear that results in a GS of around 10k?.....
(I'm really doubtful that this is the case. also considering any player that is a good player, would jump up to approx 12-14k relatively fast after he/she hits lvl 60.)
I don't mind playing with low gear-scored players, that doesn't bother me in any way. But the whole thing makes no sense really =/
if only 14-16k+ Gs players would be able to enter, this event might just become too easy (if it doesnt bugg out that is)....
this might be the idea? *just a thought
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited December 2014
10 K, as this is supposed to be about teamwork.
You can teach somebody who to effectively fight better at 10 K GS rather than 12 14 20+ K GS as they'll learn how to operate a character as part of a team rather than run forward zerg assuming they won't die just due to a high GS.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I don't know, I can actually get any of my newly made lvl 60 characters to GS 10k without any real effort at all...
so I don't see the "teamwork" as an argument.....
no need to really do any boon work, or gear grinding, nor work on any real enchantmets at all to get to this stage...
I really would think some minimal work would be needed.
but hey.. as i mentioned, the 10k'ers do create a (random/chaos)-effect into the whole thing..
making the event a bit more difficult.
If said person is to lazy to get boons or over 12k gs then they are certainly to lazy to do Tiamat properly. Ive no use for these people in any instance nm on a DRAGON GOD!
If one gets the necessary BOONS to get into Icewind Dale along with T2 armor and weapons (profound PVP gear might work, black ice armor can work), then they should be in the 13K to 15K or higher range. If they are really wanting to do well, they will work towards 2K defense (if they are squishy class; 3 to 5K for GWF, GF), 20 to 24% armor penetration, appropriate lifesteal, crit, etc.
Just having people under 13K GS pop into Tiamat is basically looking at those above 13K GS carrying them for a win (if able), or guaranteeing a loss if there are not enough to carry.
One of the things I don't understand is PWE's statement about communication, coordination, etc. in terms of their stance for Tiamat working with a 10K GS RAID for the following reasons: Not all 25 will be guaranteed to be able to speak, read, and write English. If not all are the same language (it doesn't have to be English), there can be no communication. No communication = NO coordination.
Today we wrote out in /SAY that the cleric bug is still not fixed, and for people to WAIT until the clerics spoke the words, she is weaked before moving away from defending the clerics. At least two people cross the silly red line near the dragons due to either not being able to read English or being impatient. Tiamat bugged, ~30 minutes lost. In that case, communication may not have mattered because who knows if those 2 or more who bugged the instance can read English.
Comments
I don't think its going to work either. People love to fantasize the lowly 12k GS player outperforming an 18k GS player. This doesn't usually happen. This rarely happens. Reality is, the numbers don't lie. Big gearscore differences produces too much variability in DPS to be overcome by skill.
Meh, I think people just want to have their monologue of how "elitism is destroying the community" and so they throw out these rare and weird exaggerations to cement their point.
I'd rather have a 10k debuff DC than a 20k idiot on my team.
I guess u have had bad moments in ur tiamat's encounters?
Since the zerg idea popped up, all the encounters vs tiamat have been defeated in my instances and normally among those 25 players there are 10kg and 20kg people, 14k and 17kg being the most; and the low geared people have topped!. By zerging, u can make a perfect encounter, not matter how many low geared people there. As many have stated, the problem is in the cleric phases, people need to use prone and knock back effects and dont stand next to those clerics. There are many that dont know that, but the high geared people are worried more on yelling at and ditching their mates, instead of giving tips. At the end of the day is team work and dont pretend to take tiamats down in the 2nd round.
What I want to know is where do all of these competent 10k gsers come from and why can't they get a full set of anything with probably even rank 4s. They don't sound very competent to me.
The problem is not the cleric phases, those are just filler. You essentially get 3 rounds to take all the heads down and there is plenty of time for that. If you need a 4th there is very little chance of succeeding.
The vast majority of mine have succeeded (most failures were when it was bugged), many in the first round and some in the 2nd round. This was no thanks to the low GS folks that got carried as my group of 5 (before this patch when we actually were able to get 5 folks into the same instance) had to essentially take out 4 of the heads. I don't find it fun to have to carry 10-15 people. Since this patch we haven't been able to get a group into the same instance. Most are going to the 3rd round now.
Keep in mind as more and more of the 20k+ folks finish off their last boon they won't be in there anymore and it's going to get harder and harder. Then you will see just how little dps 12k GS folks really have.
Simply because it follows the logic of heroic LoL.
and... by the time that happens the old 12k people will be 15k and such...
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
In a perfect optimized world yes. But sadly, we also have to account for that fact that these 10k GS players are also not exactly the brightest of the bunch in terms of using their skills or building their gear
And of course noone from their side listens, noone says anything, not one question answered in a proper manner. It is just so annoying to give them so much in terms of time and money and getting back oneway decisions from people who are NOT participate in the game but rather see plain statistic numbers...
Cause they want everyone to have access to artifact gear that "needs" to be lvled to legendary
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?813421-10kgs-dps-test-can-a-10kgs-character-pull-their-weight-in-tiamat
10k dps at 10.5kgs with no buffs, debuffs, potions, etc.
maybe another question that reflects reality..
would a character with that many boons, and type of build really be using gear that results in a GS of around 10k?.....
(I'm really doubtful that this is the case. also considering any player that is a good player, would jump up to approx 12-14k relatively fast after he/she hits lvl 60.)
I don't mind playing with low gear-scored players, that doesn't bother me in any way. But the whole thing makes no sense really =/
if only 14-16k+ Gs players would be able to enter, this event might just become too easy (if it doesnt bugg out that is)....
this might be the idea? *just a thought
You can teach somebody who to effectively fight better at 10 K GS rather than 12 14 20+ K GS as they'll learn how to operate a character as part of a team rather than run forward zerg assuming they won't die just due to a high GS.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
so I don't see the "teamwork" as an argument.....
no need to really do any boon work, or gear grinding, nor work on any real enchantmets at all to get to this stage...
I really would think some minimal work would be needed.
but hey.. as i mentioned, the 10k'ers do create a (random/chaos)-effect into the whole thing..
making the event a bit more difficult.
Just having people under 13K GS pop into Tiamat is basically looking at those above 13K GS carrying them for a win (if able), or guaranteeing a loss if there are not enough to carry.
One of the things I don't understand is PWE's statement about communication, coordination, etc. in terms of their stance for Tiamat working with a 10K GS RAID for the following reasons: Not all 25 will be guaranteed to be able to speak, read, and write English. If not all are the same language (it doesn't have to be English), there can be no communication. No communication = NO coordination.
Today we wrote out in /SAY that the cleric bug is still not fixed, and for people to WAIT until the clerics spoke the words, she is weaked before moving away from defending the clerics. At least two people cross the silly red line near the dragons due to either not being able to read English or being impatient. Tiamat bugged, ~30 minutes lost. In that case, communication may not have mattered because who knows if those 2 or more who bugged the instance can read English.