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Ok so watch this 2v1 against a tr. On twitch

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  • zvieriszvieris Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    morenthar wrote: »
    It's amazing how we have so much proof that SABOTEURS are OP people still lump all TRs in with them. FFS. This has to be the dumbest player base in the history of MMOs.

    It's because all 3 paths are OP. 1st has permastealth, 2nd has permadaze and third has 1HKOs. And you still wonder why ppl lump all TRs into one?
  • ychiakiychiaki Member Posts: 123 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    morenthar wrote: »
    It's amazing how we have so much proof that SABOTEURS are OP people still lump all TRs in with them. FFS. This has to be the dumbest player base in the history of MMOs.

    My apologies, indeed Saboteurs are the OP ones, the other two paths are just very strong. But I believe it's already understandable what I meant, when people complained about HRs everybody knew they were talking about Combat.
    DC Divine Oracle Faithful
    HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
    GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
    CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
    TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
    SW Soulbinder Fury
  • tcarncetcarnce Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 976 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    zvieris wrote: »
    It's because all 3 paths are OP. 1st has permastealth, 2nd has permadaze and third has 1HKOs. And you still wonder why ppl lump all TRs into one?

    random blabla, 1shots don`t happen when you`re counter geared etc blablabla, not going to lay out all basics.
    but would be nice before commenting to give some real input instead of blabla.
    i`m out.
    even more timewaste than i thought this ;p
  • yukimaru153yukimaru153 Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    yes lets talk about bugs...
    what happened at 14:18 to cent's health bar?
    19:30 intimidation still hitting for 32k (coof coof to people blaming lashing blade)

    some work is definetely needed but 2 seconds out of stealth everytime i land a knife? a ****** cloud of steel? maaan

    Yea the 32k i have see all to well. but... gwf is under powered in pvp remember >.>
  • zvieriszvieris Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    tcarnce wrote: »
    random blabla, 1shots don`t happen when you`re counter geared etc blablabla, not going to lay out all basics.
    but would be nice before commenting to give some real input instead of blabla.
    i`m out.
    even more timewaste than i thought this ;p

    Oh please, wise one, tell me how anyone is supposed to "counter-gear" a TR that hits 50k SEs? For your information, SE ignores all DR and tenacity. Give some real input yourself, troll.
    Yea the 32k i have see all to well. but... gwf is under powered in pvp remember >.>

    The gwf was under the effect of Into the Fray. That should be at least +30% damage.
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    zvieris wrote: »
    It's because all 3 paths are OP. 1st has permastealth, 2nd has permadaze and third has 1HKOs. And you still wonder why ppl lump all TRs into one?

    2nd is dumped near uselessness in a many vs. one scenario (typical scenario for backcapping), 3rd is severely limited by its lack of utility as well as being a one-trick pony.

    1st is the only TR that people can't really expect to counter, and that 1st also happens to simply make best use of the game's most poorly designed piercing damage feat on top of the hardest hitting dailies multiple times, thanks to the broken OP Sigil of the Devoted. Take the Shadowy Opportunity + Bloodbath, or the recently broken Shocking Execution out of the equation in the originally posted videos, and there's nothing abnormal.

    Of course, the belly-aching funny irony being none of you will ever admit to the Sigil of the Devoted being one of the largest problems that magnifies the Saboteuer TR's strengths to insane levels, since it also benefits your own classes in many ways which shouldn't be.

    Do you know how long it takes for a Executioner or a Scoundrel to charge upto full AP when it doesn't have the DC artifact?

    Try it.


    Frickin' go and try counting the number of Bloodbaths he was able to use within just a few minutes, and then try thinking whether he could have done the same shi* against two of them without so many Bloodbaths from the freebie AP gain from the cloak(I'm assuming this one), and the artifact.

    Counting from around 14:20, within a minute he uses 3 BBs. 15secs later a 4th BB thanks to the bullshi& artifact, another 15s later a 5th BB, approx 20s or so later a 6th BB. By 17:12 he uses a 7th BB. So, in a span of 3 minutes he uses 7 Bloodbaths. It may not seem strange for other classes who build AP like as if eating a candy, but for TRs AP generation takes at least 3~4 times longer to reach max. Not sure if he has the cloak, but definately for sure that no other TR can land so many hits from stealth to continuously build AP at that rate except Sabs.

    In that scenario no matter how well played a Scoundrel would last no more than 1 minute into the fight since he ain't getting back so easily into stealth with just one Shadow Strike. Same with Executioners.


    So no, this ain't about all TRs. This is about Sabs, how they enter back into stealth so easily, and how MI/Sabs can do it even easier with Invisible Infiltrator, since every daily puts you back into stealth as well. So what you're seeing in the video is a perma on steroids, and as NUMEROUS TR PLAYERS ALREADY HAVE POINTED OUT the most powerful broken OP perma in the history of NW permastealth TRs, and how certain artifact equipment make them even MORE powerful.


    Dailies were never meant to be used so often. These are special powers. In the original D&D4th format it's a power which can be used only once per day. And then this particular TR build/path, along with a:

    ■ AP boosting artifact(assumed)
    ■ max-AP-on-use artifact
    ■ a Daily power that does multiple hits while assuming damage-immunity
    ■ a feat that procs piercing damage with all hits of the above daily
    ■ a feat that gives freebie stealth with use of the above daily
    ■ a feat that instantly recharges all encounters with use of above daily
    ■ a capstone feat that allows the game's easiest perma management up to date
    ■ being able to perma so easily, attacks often enough from stealth to fill AP quickly

    This is a massive number of synergies that all converge/focus at a single point. Not even the mod3/4 HRs have these many synergies working at the same time.

    You've seen a freak of nature. No other TR can do this. A WK/Sab can't do this. Any other Scoundrel, or even 1-shot Executioner builds can't do this.

    Only the MI/Sab does this, as you've seen in the vid. So stop treating all TRs as if the same, because we're not. And every self-respecting TR player has ALREADY pointed out to how broken Sabs are... the only ones keeping quiet and thoroughly enjoying this -- you guessed it, the "high level" players.

    If there's any OP or broken shi* that can be exploited to its max, you can easily guess who is going to report it to the developers for a fix -- as any decent player should -- and who is not gonna say a word about it.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    clonkyo1 wrote: »
    Oks, now you are confirming that you are a troll and you just want to faceroll on KB. Fine. But, FYI and falling into your poorly provocation, even my 14.2k GS Exec can One shot all other classes with LB. Mine, in example, can hit for 20k+ with LB, not counting the damage dealt by SoD, vs a Pbis Sent GWF, which, to me, it tells me a thing or two about it. In fact, a Exec is the easiest at all due it does not require any AP artifact, just LB and SS to hit, stealth, run for 10 secs, see the target die almost for sure and go to the next objetive.

    EDIT: if that sequence is hard for you, then, you should leave this game and go back to WoW... or any other easier game than this one... which, right now, i think is really hard to find one easier than NW

    You're welcome to bring us a vid of an Exec performing at that levels.

    I sincerely doubt you can, since nobody who knows anything uses anything else than a Sab except those who would; (a) openly reject it as being too broken and OP, or (b) be lured by the one-shot and subsequently start behaving as if PvP was a duel, instead of doing what the TR should be doing in DOMINATION.

    Execs are troll builds. It works at most when the PuG match you're in are comprised of inexperienced players, with flimsy squishy classes who keep coming alone to the node you're back-capping. It don't even need a premade -- any smarter level of PuGs simply concentrate on winning the other two nodes, and then send many people at the same time to flush you out.You think you can manage to keep holding the node against multiple opponents with an Executioner?
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    This is so stupid. A tr can kill 2x BIS geared players from absolute.

    Devs being clueless as always.
    clonkyo1 wrote: »
    Oks, now you are confirming that you are a troll and you just want to faceroll on KB. Fine. But, FYI and falling into your poorly provocation, even my 14.2k GS Exec can One shot all other classes with LB. Mine, in example, can hit for 20k+ with LB, not counting the damage dealt by SoD, vs a Pbis Sent GWF, which, to me, it tells me a thing or two about it. In fact, a Exec is the easiest at all due it does not require any AP artifact, just LB and SS to hit, stealth, run for 10 secs, see the target die almost for sure and go to the next objetive.

    EDIT: if that sequence is hard for you, then, you should leave this game and go back to WoW... or any other easier game than this one... which, right now, i think is really hard to find one easier than NW

    No, he is a pug TR who has no clue of premades. Ignore him and his opinions and just have discussion with an actual legit player like GODMODE (OP).
  • isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    2nd is dumped near uselessness in a many vs. one scenario (typical scenario for backcapping), 3rd is severely limited by its lack of utility as well as being a one-trick pony.

    1st is the only TR that people can't really expect to counter, and that 1st also happens to simply make best use of the game's most poorly designed piercing damage feat on top of the hardest hitting dailies multiple times, thanks to the broken OP Sigil of the Devoted. Take the Shadowy Opportunity + Bloodbath, or the recently broken Shocking Execution out of the equation in the originally posted videos, and there's nothing abnormal.

    Of course, the belly-aching funny irony being none of you will ever admit to the Sigil of the Devoted being one of the largest problems that magnifies the Saboteuer TR's strengths to insane levels, since it also benefits your own classes in many ways which shouldn't be.

    Do you know how long it takes for a Executioner or a Scoundrel to charge upto full AP when it doesn't have the DC artifact?

    Try it.


    Frickin' go and try counting the number of Bloodbaths he was able to use within just a few minutes, and then try thinking whether he could have done the same shi* against two of them without so many Bloodbaths from the freebie AP gain from the cloak(I'm assuming this one), and the artifact.

    Counting from around 14:20, within a minute he uses 3 BBs. 15secs later a 4th BB thanks to the bullshi& artifact, another 15s later a 5th BB, approx 20s or so later a 6th BB. By 17:12 he uses a 7th BB. So, in a span of 3 minutes he uses 7 Bloodbaths. It may not seem strange for other classes who build AP like as if eating a candy, but for TRs AP generation takes at least 3~4 times longer to reach max. Not sure if he has the cloak, but definately for sure that no other TR can land so many hits from stealth to continuously build AP at that rate except Sabs.

    In that scenario no matter how well played a Scoundrel would last no more than 1 minute into the fight since he ain't getting back so easily into stealth with just one Shadow Strike. Same with Executioners.


    So no, this ain't about all TRs. This is about Sabs, how they enter back into stealth so easily, and how MI/Sabs can do it even easier with Invisible Infiltrator, since every daily puts you back into stealth as well. So what you're seeing in the video is a perma on steroids, and as NUMEROUS TR PLAYERS ALREADY HAVE POINTED OUT the most powerful broken OP perma in the history of NW permastealth TRs, and how certain artifact equipment make them even MORE powerful.


    Dailies were never meant to be used so often. These are special powers. In the original D&D4th format it's a power which can be used only once per day. And then this particular TR build/path, along with a:

    ■ AP boosting artifact(assumed)
    ■ max-AP-on-use artifact
    ■ a Daily power that does multiple hits while assuming damage-immunity
    ■ a feat that procs piercing damage with all hits of the above daily
    ■ a feat that gives freebie stealth with use of the above daily
    ■ a feat that instantly recharges all encounters with use of above daily
    ■ a capstone feat that allows the game's easiest perma management up to date
    ■ being able to perma so easily, attacks often enough from stealth to fill AP quickly

    This is a massive number of synergies that all converge/focus at a single point. Not even the mod3/4 HRs have these many synergies working at the same time.

    You've seen a freak of nature. No other TR can do this. A WK/Sab can't do this. Any other Scoundrel, or even 1-shot Executioner builds can't do this.

    Only the MI/Sab does this, as you've seen in the vid. So stop treating all TRs as if the same, because we're not. And every self-respecting TR player has ALREADY pointed out to how broken Sabs are... the only ones keeping quiet and thoroughly enjoying this -- you guessed it, the "high level" players.

    If there's any OP or broken shi* that can be exploited to its max, you can easily guess who is going to report it to the developers for a fix -- as any decent player should -- and who is not gonna say a word about it.
    If a scoundrel uses bloodbath on a target like say a gf, the gf might be blocking the bb but he will get dazed, it has happened to me 100% of the time a scoundrel used bb on me. Yes a DC artifact is bis but we aren't saying that because we use it. It is really strong with tr's just like red glyphs are really strong with hr's cw, sw, and tr's. But it hasn't been nerfed yet. Also if a TR using it is the only problem then that should at least tell you something. The scoundrel and Sab tr's can 1shot with SE.
  • isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    morenthar wrote: »
    No they are not. Scoundrels are not OP because they are almost ALWAYS visible. They pay a price. Executioner damage is a bit nuts but NOTHING compares to Saboteurs. Piercing damage, perma-stealth, Bloodbath, etc. It's pathetic.
    Scoundrel procs dazes man. Daze duration cannot be deflected. Dazing, shadow strike, and Conclusive Strike cc gf's in villains menace. CS cc's gwf in unstoppable. Skull Breaker is another proc that cc's. They still have stealth at their convenience, and most stack deflection strike. Sab's are their own kind of overpowered, Scoundrel's are their own kind of overpowered but weaker than sab, Executioners have their SoD pug with enchants that do dot dmg. But in my opinion weaker than both of the other specs.
  • xxxgriessonxxxxxxgriessonxxx Member Posts: 115 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    WK+saboteur is an monstrous abomination. Instead of the perma nerf everyone was expecting they gave perma the means to melt you from stealth which is such a ridiculous decision that it follows logically that they did it on purpose to motivate a wave of new characters. 10k executioner with gvorp 1 shots a 40k+ hp gwf with shocking execution(40k crit+20k piercing dmg) cmon...
    People thats what they do, forget about ever seeing logically balanced classes. Each new "balancing" just creates new imbalances and thats going on for more than a year already. I mean, coming out with an imbalanced, broken game is ridiculous alone... THIS is sodomization.
  • ralexinorralexinor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Actually Scoundrel is just as OP as Saboteur if not more so in terms of 1v1s with certain classes. Saboteur just kills much much faster, but Scoundrel has much more defenses and can lock you down easily. Both are fairly difficult to counter, if not borderline impossible depending on gear and build (mostly Sab, but Scoundrel for some classes is much harder and more frustrating than Sab is. Again, this is a personal view but they're nearly the same thing - insane damage levels vs perma CC + high damage).

    Also fyi Scoundrels don't need to come out of stealth if they're MI, nor do Executioners, your build is just not built around that sort of perma playstyle. An Executioner or Scoundrel MI can hold a node just as well as a Sab can, although it's a bit more difficult to clear as a Scoundrel, especially against CC immune targets, and I'm not sure if those TRs can clear a DC (although with SE, probably possible).

    Saboteur is much better than Scoundrel against DC, GWF, GF and other TRs, and the damage + stealth refills allows you to 1v2 and win repeatedly. However, vs HR, CW, SW, Scoundrel is just as deadly because you have a lot more defenses against them; if they manage to find an opening you can usually just daze them and go back into stealth/ITC.

    Honestly, the proposed change from the devs (2 seconds "True Sight") won't change much in terms of 1v1. Most of the geared TRs will just run in circles until dailies are up, then daze and oneshot their target with Bloodbath or SE, as a lot already do. It might only mean you need to time your CCs better in 1v2s, and that clearing people 1v2 will be harder, but the fact remains that if you play fully defensive as a TR, you still won't die 1v2 because of all the defensive capabilities, and people will still die fast to you 1v1.

    Imo, it's not permastealth that's really the issue but the almost criminal levels of damage that comes with it. I think permastealth itself is fine, the damage by itself is still nasty but counterable, however both of these together creates a rather deadly combination that's nigh impossible to counter 1v1.

    It IS quite possible to counter 2v1 with the right players and classes (the matchups in those videos weren't very good; you have 2 tank-type classes vs the TR, SE is a direct counter to GWF and a protector GF doesn't have much DPS against burst damage, let alone a TR). A good CW + good HR will clear a TR reasonably fast (with the amount of dailies they have it's still quite difficult), and most times they won't die especially because it's on a home node. Putting a GWF and GF against a TR is not the best decision, but that comp probably didn't allow for much else. I've cleared that TR with my HR + a good CW easily enough, or at least forced him to fight offnode quite a bit and leak us points (and intercepting the DC before she/he can heal the TR).

    However it's kind of... stupid that you're forced to 2v1 a class and still take a while to clear them. Against a good DPS pair, pretty much any class except TR dies in <30 seconds alone. The fact it takes longer than that usually to clear a TR and also take the risk of being cleared by the TR if you don't have the right classes is not really something that should persist in this game.

    I think the amount of dailies any class can use needs to be toned down; that amount of dailies especially on a TR or CW is quite deadly. Additionally Shadowy Opportunity piercing damage is a stupid idea; it needs to be based off the original damage done rather than being a flat damage bonus, that way GWFs/GFs don't get oneshot by Bloodbath since it'll respect sprint/block/unstoppable/DR, and should also do less damage overall in pvp and more damage in pve (if sabs need buffs in that department...). SE can at least respect 50% of DR and have the possibility to be deflected. Concussive Strikes needs to respect CC immunities and also have a higher cooldown or lower duration (but not too much; nerfing it into uselessness isn't the idea here, probably something like 2s every 6 seconds or 1.5s every 4.5 seconds).

    The proposed change to stealth isn't really that necessary and it also can cause issues for some builds; the moment a WK or MI with no ITC is exposed without a daily, they're pretty much toast against most DPS builds, although the extra dodges does help quite a bit. If TRs are to keep their damage as is, permastealth needs to become much less effective to maintain, but TRs will need more defensive measures outside of stealth (i.e. Stealth now has a 10 second cooldown. After 15 seconds of being in stealth, this cooldown is increased by the amount of time you are in stealth, and stealth depletion is doubled (aka you are in stealth for 20 seconds total without exiting, this cooldown is increased by 5 seconds to a total of 15 seconds. Basically the longer you are in stealth, the longer the cooldown on stealth, and the faster stealth drains - this prevents and penalises people for trying to stay in stealth indefinitely). After exiting Stealth you gain a buff that gives you 10% deflect, 10% DR and 10% cc immunity/resist for 10 seconds. Every at-will hit you land during this period increases your deflect, DR and cc immunity/resist by an additional 4%, and each encounter used grants an additional 10% for a maximum of an additional 40%. This is one possible idea.).

    tl;dr yes, TR is OP atm and does need some nerfs in certain departments, but it's mostly the combination of damage/CC + permastealth that's causing the issues.

    /end wall of text
  • isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    What you say makes sense, but i have a problem with the extra deflection they would get, maybe extra dr is fine but deflection has no counter.
  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jumboyet wrote: »
    haha lol that was not a 1v1 that was slaughter. But then again, its still bloodbath doing the insane damage because of the piercing damage in stealth. Bloodbath out of stealth does nothing, so for sure its piercing damage.

    atm there is nothing to do against tr other then survive. a really tanky GF or DC or another TR can hold a TR for a while.


    But then again, if the GWF was Sobek Senpai the fight may have ended differently

    Sobek is a beast, perhaps he would've done better than my scrub GWF. That said, if this video had been after the Ninja buff to S.E. Crollax would have simply dailied both myself and the GF with one shots. As it stood for this video it took 2-3 BB's to wipe the node 2v1 with KV on or 1 BB vs just me to send me to spawn. I started a thread here about the issue related to TR dailies.

    I feel that this is something that needs to be addressed to bring some measure of balance to the TR class at the moment.

    Thanks for your time.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    Most TR's roll sab because it is the strongest of the 3. Does not mean scoundrel isn't overpowered. Slot in path of blades and people without cc break are <bleep>. If you then add smoke bomb, they are even more <bleep>. On top of that the tree procs dazes that cannot be resisted with cc immunity buffs and also cannot be deflected. Add the fact that they have stealth at their disposal for panic mode or their bb can proc their cc's.
  • nem3zissnem3ziss Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    isuuck2 wrote: »
    Most TR's roll sab because it is the strongest of the 3. Does not mean scoundrel isn't overpowered. Slot in path of blades and people without cc break are <bleep>. If you then add smoke bomb, they are even more <bleep>. On top of that the tree procs dazes that cannot be resisted with cc immunity buffs and also cannot be deflected. Add the fact that they have stealth at their disposal for panic mode or their bb can proc their cc's.

    Every end game TR will roll Sab, because if you are taken to premade people expect from you to back cap, so you will be forced to play 1v1/2v1 sometimes even 3v1 till you will get help. And considering that mounting now takes long time, most of the time you need to surivive. That's why TR's are rolling Sab... scound or exe don't as much survi as sabo. Daze going through ITC/block/Unsto is imo bug, it shouldn't and this need to be fixed, same as roar was.

    And if we talk about balance, i don's ask that unsto will be braked after first hit, right? No Tr is asking for 2 sec encounter cooldown on CW's when they use 4'th encounter, right? Damage need to be adressed, perma not. And even tho my main is TR, was since beta and i dont have any other pvp toon i will said that" daylies shouldn't get autocrit from stealth, those should only crit considering your natural crit chance. Take away piercing and give us some heal's or life steal. You want TR in premade, but you dont want perma? I dont ask from Conq GF to use KV, right?
  • isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    nem3ziss wrote: »
    Every end game TR will roll Sab, because if you are taken to premade people expect from you to back cap, so you will be forced to play 1v1/2v1 sometimes even 3v1 till you will get help. And considering that mounting now takes long time, most of the time you need to surivive. That's why TR's are rolling Sab... scound or exe don't as much survi as sabo. Daze going through ITC/block/Unsto is imo bug, it shouldn't and this need to be fixed, same as roar was.

    And if we talk about balance, i don's ask that unsto will be braked after first hit, right? No Tr is asking for 2 sec encounter cooldown on CW's when they use 4'th encounter, right? Damage need to be adressed, perma not. And even tho my main is TR, was since beta and i dont have any other pvp toon i will said that" daylies shouldn't get autocrit from stealth, those should only crit considering your natural crit chance. Take away piercing and give us some heal's or life steal. You want TR in premade, but you dont want perma? I dont ask from Conq GF to use KV, right?
    I understand your comparisons but they are unfair. Tr's have the high dmg in pvp now, and also have the highest defensive mechanism. Attacking away piercing and giving you heals would also be problematic. nerfing one think and buffing the other will just make you i different kind of overpowered. Perma is cool, high dps is cool. but not both. CC is cool, High unresistable CC +Dmg isn't cool. Conq have no place in a high tier pvp match, they are too weak and our guard is to buggy. CW's 4th encounter is nothing in comparison to stealth. Hr's 6 encounters are nothing compared to stealth. Truth is there is nothing to really compare rogues to in this game because they have such a huge advantage over everyone.
  • lewstelamon01lewstelamon01 Member Posts: 7,415 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Okay, this thread is so done.
    ROLL TIDE ROLL

    Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?

    PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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