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PVP was shockingly well executed till it become a bloodbath.
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
Mod 5 PVP is imho very balanced. I am very pleased to see that multiple classes have different avenues they can take to make their respective paragon paths viable. For a really well detailed discussion of various classes and potential improvements that could be made you can check out dersidius's link here. Now the biggest issue that PVP is facing, and the point I wanted to make, is the state of two TR dailies which, with the proper equipment (i.e. imperial or black ice cloak with AP gain + Cleric artifact) can be up every 8-10 seconds (AP bar refills on SE if the target is less than 20% health). Bloodbath is basically killing any 1 target 1v1 at end game. If there are 2 targets that damage is halved between them and the second BB will very likely wipe both (mixed with intermingled 10k Gloaming cuts for end game saboteurs).
Now I thought BB was too strong and was prepared to write a forum post dedicated to that alone until Shocking Execution got basically ninja buffed. Bloodbath is dependent on saboteur feats that give it piercing damage on each hit (remember how OP HR was last mod with piercing blades? Well it was taken away and given it to TRs). Shocking Execution, as the tool tip now reads, ignores all DR. It doesn't matter if you have 5% DR or 50% you might as well be naked. Not to mention it apparently avoids tenacity DR as well. Couple this with the feats that Saboteurs have available to them and borrowed crit severity from the executioner tree and you have a one hit wonder daily. If you stun a target who can dodge before unloading it, it is always ALWAYS a one shot from full health to death at end game. My GWF doesn't even have to be stunned as he has no dodges (save using his own daily avalanche), and with 50K HP, 18% tenacity, 46% DR and 30-40% deflect, as well as a 34 AC I get one shotted by this daily every time from stealth even when I'm sprinting for 30% more DR and Unstoppable for 80% DR. Invariably I will die.
I don't mind 8-15k gloaming cuts, I don't mind not being able to see the target I'm trying to find on a node, I don't even mind that depending on the build I'm either stunned when they are out of stealth or they are in ITC invincible mode. I DO mind that they have a kill switch, a stealthed godmode skill that will invariably kill me without any skill required save pushing tab then 1 or 2 depending on the numerical code they chose for my untimely demise.
Please Devs hear me. This MUST be changed or you will see TR troll comps Qing for PVP and one shotting everyone on the other team.
If you fix this one balancing issue I am quite happy with the state of this mod for PVP. Balance is the best it has been save this one issue. Please help us, please make PVP enjoyable again for classes other than TR's.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
Now I thought BB was too strong and was prepared to write a forum post dedicated to that alone until Shocking Execution got basically ninja buffed. Bloodbath is dependent on saboteur feats that give it piercing damage on each hit (remember how OP HR was last mod with piercing blades? Well it was taken away and given it to TRs). Shocking Execution, as the tool tip now reads, ignores all DR. It doesn't matter if you have 5% DR or 50% you might as well be naked. Not to mention it apparently avoids tenacity DR as well. Couple this with the feats that Saboteurs have available to them and borrowed crit severity from the executioner tree and you have a one hit wonder daily. If you stun a target who can dodge before unloading it, it is always ALWAYS a one shot from full health to death at end game. My GWF doesn't even have to be stunned as he has no dodges (save using his own daily avalanche), and with 50K HP, 18% tenacity, 46% DR and 30-40% deflect, as well as a 34 AC I get one shotted by this daily every time from stealth even when I'm sprinting for 30% more DR and Unstoppable for 80% DR. Invariably I will die.
I don't mind 8-15k gloaming cuts, I don't mind not being able to see the target I'm trying to find on a node, I don't even mind that depending on the build I'm either stunned when they are out of stealth or they are in ITC invincible mode. I DO mind that they have a kill switch, a stealthed godmode skill that will invariably kill me without any skill required save pushing tab then 1 or 2 depending on the numerical code they chose for my untimely demise.
Please Devs hear me. This MUST be changed or you will see TR troll comps Qing for PVP and one shotting everyone on the other team.
If you fix this one balancing issue I am quite happy with the state of this mod for PVP. Balance is the best it has been save this one issue. Please help us, please make PVP enjoyable again for classes other than TR's.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
^^^
10k gloaming cuts?where? the lowest is 25k-15k for mid game trs imo.
Look some mediocre ones what can do ,against normal GF,51k hp,57,5% DR (49,6% +15% increase),26k deflect 1800 regen.
"
[Combat (Self)] Skrytochujca deals 5015 Physical Damage to you with Shadowy Opportunity. [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Skrytochujca deals 13994 (25492) Physical Damage to you with Gloaming Cut. [Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Lightning deals 372 (600) Lightning Damage to Skrytochujca. [Combat (Self)] Skrytochujca gives 0 Hit Points to you with Kill. "
"[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Xavkas deals 9600 (15567) Physical Damage to you with Gloaming Cut."
38k lashing blade by 14k tr:
"[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Mz. deals 28918 (38411) Physical Damage to you with Lashing Blade."
TR damage is way out of hand.And mod5 is not balanced.
The reason for this is tr broken opness that soon wil reach sent iv mod2 heights.If you do only premades you do not get the whole point of pvp today:
90% of the people that did pvp regularly as pugs ,in the 15-19k gs range,have simply stopped.The only ones that do pvp now are the top geared toons(20-22k gs) ,TRs,and new people for the daily..All other classes have left pvp.At any given time the pvp queue takes longer and the most balanced match will be 5 x12k gs vs semi premade.
That is the reason for the rush of the devs to rework the stealth mechanic.What they not did in one and a half year they will do it in one week.It will hit preview soon.Just think about it.
It will not be enough.Damage needs adjustment,feats,first strike etc need rework.
1)25K Gloaming cuts are not at all my experience in PVP, 8-15k is right where I see the majority of end game gloaming cuts fall.
2)I don't only do premades, noone does. I pug just as much as anyone in the game and I do get "the whole point of pvp today".
3)I agree that damage needs adjustment, just that it needs it firstly and most importantly in relation to single shot dailies, thus the point of my post.
Lastly I knew that by saying PVP is imho balanced it was arguable, thus the "imho". From your post, however, it sounds like you want all damage and stealth taken away from the TR without offering an alternative. I don't want to nerf the TR class, they should have high DPS at wills as it's their primary form of damage if they are to maintain stealth. Most of their encounters are about gaining back stealth, dazing, or deflecting while they are out of stealth so that they can rotate back to stealth (think of stealth as their armor). Thus at wills are their primary form of dps. If you take away stealth from a TR then you have a very squishy class with only limited amounts of protection via stealth and limited damage when other classes can see it coming. The entire way that PVP is played would change drastically.
I propose smaller more subtle changes or tweaks to balance classes, not taking a hammer to a class but rather using a fine sculpting tool to fix imperfections.
Thanks for your reply.
+1
but with one exception - Gloaming Cuts- you are GWF With 50% dr and 40% deflection- now imagine CW with 30% dr and 10% deflection and lets say without Sheild on TAB- really GC can deal 15-20k into CW and this is just very exaggerated.
PS. Loboguild- pvp community isnt that small as you think
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Without Shield I have no doubt damage is higher, no argument here and that could be another discussion but at the moment the Shocker is my main concern and bloodbath close behind. Thanks for your comments.
Hey thanks brother I appreciate it.
What I am loathe to agree with is that any kind of solution lies in changes to the stealth mechanic itself, and that issues with SE and BB can and should be dealt with by some other means.
It is however refreshing to have someone put forward grievances based on knowledge of pvp, rather than the usual whine/nerf threads you get that often discuss the mythical tri-featpath rogue that has ALL the benefites of permastealth, permadaze, etc etc and the ignorance in those posts makes my eyes bleed.
I feel that part of the problem is the new gear, imho dailies should hit hard and be feared (no to the point they are guarantedd 1 shots mind) but they certainly shouldnt be able to be cast so frequently that they become new encounters, ney new at wills. Perhaps the solution lies in some changes to AP generation or the buffs from siad new cloaks?
To reiterate, I am agreeing to the needed FIX. The dials on fixing any class should be turned slowly so as not to ruin them. Or ruin them again in the TR's case. That's my .02 in this. Cheers.
The problem is not the gear, every class can use it. It would not be ok, if BIS TRs can 'only' oneshot or nearly oneshot every other player once in 2 minutes. No skill should ignore DR. It was a fail on glyphs, CWs and HRs. Same goes, if TR is the one with the DR ignoring skill.
I'd prefer to keep this topic localized just to the TR dailies and their DR ignoring/Piercing damage. If you have an issue with GWF's and something you feel is an issue you may want to start another thread.
Everyone else thanks for your constructive feedback, keep it coming.
If you read my initial post properly you would note the caveat (not to the point they are guaranteed oneshots), I was at no point endorsing 1shot dailies on any length cooldown. To clarify, my stance was that dailies should hit hard, because they are something *generally cast less frequently, thats is my understanding of the basic concept of a daily power as opposed to an encounter or at will. They should not however ignore DR and result in 1shots. I am agreeing with the OP on the topic of his post.
I followed this up with my opinion that perhaps the gear was undermining the concept of a 'daily' by making it ridiculously easy to gain AP, but as you state this is an option available to all classes, so things like iceknife can be cast in quick succession. The DC artifact further exacerbates this. However if everyone has access to it in theory then its a level playing field and the issue return to the SE skill itself as previously eluded to.
It's true it can be dodged, but as LordTirion pointed out, what about GWF who do not have dodge?
Unmitigated damage is bad, in any form, expecially if you have 1 class with no dodges. 50k one shot you can't dodge is quite worng. Even on dodging classes, a daze+one shot is still too much.
Expecially when it's done on a tank toon...
DPS in PvP is out of hand. Devs should either tone it down or buff tenacity. Cause tenacity lost it's purpose lately.
GWF class needs a rework in my honest opinion instead. Do you enjoy intimidation sentinel? I mean, we have a tank build burstin' single target DPS on par with DPS builds, using a couple of AoE utility encounters. It's all wrong but still looks like the only viable path. I'm testing instigator, damage is there but it's too squishy and falls behind sentinel builds by far.
Need a proper rework to give GWFs a vialbe pure PvE DPS build (destroyer) on par with other DPS classes, a viable PvP hybrid tank/DPS build (instigator), and a true tank build (sentinel. Current sentinels are at 40-50k HPs, go down easier than TRs, HRs, GFs taking into account the class has only mitigation and mitigation this days is quite useless in PvP, or at least far less effective than immunities).
TR needs just a fix on saboteur/ current PvP meta build and a fix to avoid the one shots you mentioned.
PvP in general with red glyphs, piercing damage and DPS buffs/ power creep switched too much on the DPS side and is now pretty much close to how it was pre-module 1: a DPS rush at the speed of light where people is killed in few seconds.
I'd slow it down back at how it was when tenacity was first introduced. That period was the most balanced and fun for me in PvP.
The situation I discussed is 100% repeatable 100% of the time. I could highlight my own lil scrub TR 1 hit killing every class with shockings from my twitch stream. It's completely independent of gear. A little bit of power, some extra crit severity, crit from stealth and extra dps from feats = 1 hit SE's every time.
You hit the nail on the head there are classes that don't have dodge mechanics (GWF, SW, GF to a lesser degree) which have no chance for complete avoidance. However even classes that do have dodge mechanics can be dazed and then one shotted. It's just too much and it takes away from the challenge and competition in PVP.
Thanks for your reply.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Very dead.
Almost everyone playes with DC artifact as main, and with AP-gain cloak players have daily much more freqently then we used to have. Before we hade to work our target(s) to get AP up then finish our target with daily in a good timing. Now its just daily, daily, daily and it dishes out to much dmg and take away the fun and skill from pvp imo.
I am running 5400 - 7000 power with legendary artifact weapon (perfect vorpal) and these are the numbers I pull
[Combat (Self)] Your Gloaming Cut deals 2524 (3294) Physical Damage to MrFrankieGio.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Steal gives 171 (310) Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Steal gives 30 (54) Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Fey Thistle deals 439 (572) Physical Damage to MrFrankieGio.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Gloaming Cut gives 0 (10554) Physical Damage to MrFrankieGio.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity gives 0 (1993) Physical Damage to MrFrankieGio.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 119 (215) Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Purified Black Ice Lifesteal absorbs 618 damage from Skype's Gloaming Cut.
[Combat (Self)] Your Purified Black Ice Lifesteal absorbs 50 damage from Skype's Shadowtouched.
[Combat (Self)] Skype deals 618 (3099) Physical Damage to you with Gloaming Cut.
[Combat (Self)] Your Purified Absorbtion: Shield absorbs 711 damage from Skype's Gloaming Cut.
[Combat (Self)] Skype gives 0 (3566) Physical Damage to you with Gloaming Cut.
[Combat (Self)] Skype's Barkshield Armor absorbs 7 (1) damage from your Fey Thistle.
[Combat (Self)] Your Fey Thistle deals 79 (572) Physical Damage to Skype.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Steal gives 7 (13) Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Purified Absorbtion: Shield absorbs 50 damage from Skype's Shadowtouched.
[Combat (Self)] Skype gives 0 (250) Necrotic Damage to you with Shadowtouched.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Skype deals 1799 (10911) Physical Damage to you with Gloaming Cut.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Steal gives 0 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Skype's Barkshield Armor absorbs 3325 (631) damage from your Gloaming Cut.
[Combat (Self)] Your Gloaming Cut gives 0 (3325) Physical Damage to Skype.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Gloaming Cut deals 8162 (11522) Physical Damage to Skype.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Steal gives 303 (274) Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Steal gives 1105 (1002) Hit Points to you.
[Queue] 50 Kill
[Queue] Skype was killed by Demonmonger's Child
NOTICE the final damage was only 11k as a finisher on my gloaming... before this the skill was doing less damage.
Remember to that gloaming is supposed to do more damage to a target based on how much HP that target has remaining.
I am just saying that you have failed hard on perma-tr! U were talking about the possible end of perma -tr cause u don't like the idea and u end up making a ridiculously OP perma tr ! Now go on and remove this also. I bet the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> RoC term i used is bannable.
Courage breaker which hits multiple times just like bloodbath actually reduces cooldowns by 15%.
TR's where so fast at reporting that dex gave double deflect to everyone instead just them, but they fail to report that obvious bug.
Because this thread is not about that. This thread is about a shot from a daily regardless of skill and that it doesn't really take that much gear at all to pull off.
I was playing a GWF with over 60k HP, had my shield up and took 46k damage after it said "blocked" - In the past I have NEVER not been able to block a shocking, it was actually hilarious to hold up my shield and block it. I have no idea if this was a bug and that my meter was almost gone and it just happened to go through while still saying block....BUT - I sure took 46k hp. And I sure saw the "blocked" animation.
A good TR vs a bad TR is 60% skill, 40% gear. This removes that little bit of skill that TR's needed, the majority of the gear, and now anyone can gear up a TR, put shmeh gear on it, shmeh enchants, and 1 shot Bis players. I love TR's being OP, because I just let them fight each other, or let me kill the none OP people who aren't chasing them lol. But the fact that I was on my GF 1v1'ing a TR got him down pretty low, he is a well known TR from EOA. Tyrion runs up, as I was near death, and says he'll try and hold the node. It was no lie, 5 seconds til he said. "Dead". It was instant. And it was every single time. The fact that I have 8-12k more hp than everyone else is the only reason I could live through it.
#1 - shocking needs nerfed.
#2 - BB damage needs reduced as with 63K HP it killed me 100% of the time when fighting same EOA rogue, and CS rogue. Both arguable top 5 on the server.... but 63k HP everytime? every single time?
- They need toned down, not nerfed back into mod 3, but adjusted.
- To comment on the GF who posted those super high gloomings, he didn't tell us if the TR was buffed by a GF, a mark, if he was debuffed, ETC, nor did he mention his HP, nor is this thread about that so please move on from it.
Tyrion - I wuv you
He's not a dev, just some unemployed guy they have do this for free
I was vs a Tr and HR.The Hr was 13k gs ,i don't know if they have buff /debuff powers.None else present.
My hp?51k at the time.
And this thread is about it cause the op mentioned that does not havea problem with att wills cause in the end game "they hit only for 10k".
And i said he should have and i posted a log showing 25 and 15k by ordinary TRs.I think this is relevant.
Cheers.
However I do have a problem with Shocking execution at the moment. Why you might wonder?
I can do something against the constant stream of BB's as DC. If I rotate my AS, dodges and exaltation properly I will live (iv been ranking between page 2 and 7).
The main problem with SE (on good TR's) is they notice you dodge the first SE (which is the only way to live against BiS TR's SE), then they will wait till they have a daze on you and SE (while I have 100% hp - standing in hallowed ground - 3x empowered AS up - 50% DR - 45k hp ect..) I can not dodge but will still be one shot.
I do not mind any ability doing this damage but I NEED to be able to live or counter it somehow. Maybe someone can shine a light on this problem for me but basically I have to dodge every daze or get one shot.
Now for a fix, i suggest at least make it obey tenacity and learn the lesson of the HR and make the daily obey DR’s but deal more damage.
Kinda from a DC PoV, can't comment on other classes really.
//
With the stats mentioned and the debuf mentioned that number he gave is a clear sign of QQ. It's fine, we are all upset about that. But again, the issue and the reason of this post is the SHOCKING EXECUTION and secondarily BB.
I have an idea about that. Since stealth is supposed to be, in theory, an ultimate defense tool, then I suggest that all the benefits comming from it should only be applicable if TR backstabs. IT makra sense from RPG perspective, and will also require some skills in proper positioning. At least in PVP. If you want to defend, just try to stand face to face with them. Their stealth will still be protecting them from being seen, but their attacks will have standard crit chance and severity.
Backatabbing - that sounds very nice, don't you think?