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Lathander's Cloak or BI Cloak
laughingbirdddd
Member Posts: 84 Arc User
Since armor reinforcement kit can increase the action point gain, is the armor class gain from Lathander's Cloak more beneficial state.
I will not use the black ice set as I heard that the set bonus will only increase a little dps
I will not use the black ice set as I heard that the set bonus will only increase a little dps
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pve? black ice without a doubt
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Guess it's just a matter of taste. I like the more tanky aspect the Lathander's Cloak offers.
Personalized Archmage's ring
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Personalized_Archmage%27s_Ring_%2B6
High Recovery (naturally obtained from gear) + DC sigil + BI cloak = win
And if you do the math on ArPen:
If you have 2 legendary artifacts that grant ArPen (because your third artifact is DC sigil), that is 700 ArPen.
If you have 4x100 ArPen reinforcement kits on your gear, that is 400 ArPen.
If you have legendary BI cloak, that is 298 ArPen.
If you have 4xArchmage Rings (2 on stone, 2 on character), that is 1000 ArPen.
So, the total ArPen from these four sources is 2398 ArPen. Still lower than the 2530 max you need for PVE.
But if you also have legendary Arcane Eye, or legendary BI Belt, that will put you over. So that means you don't need as many Archmage rings. You can use the rings that grant HP or Life Steal instead.
Glad you know how every CW should/does play. You know my CW and also know that I probably don't need a marginal DPS/Daily-Spam increase, so why not opt for the more tanky path? Does that make me and all the other CWs that went down that route bad?
1) +8AC is something unique. You cant get AC in any other way (enchants, kits, boons, nothing), and we get lots of ap gain from feats (critical power...), recovery, WIS, kits, offhand feature, artifacts (passive AP gain and active from DC artifact), boons (+2% apgain aditive from sharandar, winters bounty), racial (sun elf), etc.
2) 4% AP gain every 3 secs = 1 daily every 75 secs (1 min and 15 secs). I know that when you put all the ap gain pieces is when you make a difference, but is far far from being a BIS feature, even in PvE.
3) I run at the moment with 39% damage reduction. when you have defense in soft cap (+-2300-2500), +4% FLAT damage reduction is a HUGE difference. The only red areas I must avoid are those that will 1-shot you no matter what is your DR (like 5% of all the red areas or less). Every time you must use dodge to avoid a red area, you lose 2 secs of DPS. In my experience this is a huge DPS lose. So in the case of CWs, more defense = more offense.
4) Ads and bosses hit harder every day. Sometimes 4 or 5 charge you at the same time hitting hard. Sometimes you have spikes of lag or a bit of delay that will make you die, and high DR plus 30k hp will keep you alive in lots of unforeseen situations.
About the armpen issue, archmage rings are BIS because they are the only ones that have power. When we have 20k+ GS characters, and every stat is soft-capped, you need items that give power+something else, looking for max power and the others stats in soft cap or near depending on the build.
I run with HV set (0 armpen), Lathander cloack (0 armpen), INT belt (0 armpen), 0 armpen kits, 0 dark enchants, 0 savage enchants, and I still have 2800 armPen. Had to make a respec to change the boon from armpen to defense because of this, and still 2600. Personalized rings should have personalized stats, that you can select from.
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You forgot about the 450 armor pen you get from DR + ToD boons.
I'll go with imperial cause even then i'll have way to much armor pen.
Math:
DR + ToD boons: 450
Lantern + GWF artifact: 700
Black Dragon stone: 200 something (208 iirc)
Black Ice Belt: 298
5x Archmage ring: 1250
Total: 2906 armor pen, way above 24% RI.
I can ofc choose the 200 defense instead of the 200 armor pen in the ToD campaign, but even if the 3% deflect severity boon from DR wouldn't be bugged it still wouldn't do anything for me with my grand total of 0 deflect.
For me, imperial or lathander would be more profitable than Black ice.
You can equip those rings on a augment pet?
Yes .
The OP asked for advice. I gave it. You all disagree. Fine. We agree to disagree then.
Yes I forgot about the +450 ArPen from the boons. So the calculation I provided earlier has to be modified. Maybe you have an INT belt instead of a BI belt.
Adding AC is not *always* better. All else being equal, in terms of damage resistance, +8 AC is approximately equal to somewhere between +1500 HP and +1750 HP (depends on your base HP). So if you have the option of adding, say, +2000 HP or +8 AC, go with the HP.
So in terms of defense reduction, 2xHero's Rings (+2400 HP) is better than Lathander Cloak (+8 AC). Even 1 Hero's Ring is only slightly worse than +8 AC.
Suppose you have 25000 HP with 30% DR and you suffer an attack worth 15000 damage.
After DR, the damage that you take is 15000*(1-.3)=10500.
So the percentage of your original HP that remains is (25000-10500)/25000 = 58%.
Now consider the same situation, but with a Lathander cloak with +8 AC. Now your DR is 30% + 4% = 34%.
After DR, the damage that you take is 15000*(1-.34)=9900. Your remaining HP is 15100.
So the percentage of your original HP that remains is (25000-9900)/25000 = 60.4%.
Now suppose you had equipped instead 1 Hero's Ring (+1200 HP), with a Radiant 9 in the defense slot (+1040 HP). So your total HP now is 25000+1200+1040 = 27240 HP.
After DR, the damage that you take is 15000*(1-.3)=10500. Your remaining HP is 16740.
So the percentage of your original HP that remains is (27240-10500)/27240 = 61.5%.
So you have a greater percentage of HP remaining by stacking HP than by stacking 8 AC.
The calculation is only intended to be illustrative, but you get the idea.
Let x = the amount of additional HP you want to stack.
Let y = the additional amount of DR you want to stack. (So +8 AC = 4% = 0.04 additional DR)
I computed that you get the same benefit from stacking HP as from stacking DR, if:
x/(HP+x) = y/(1-DR)
where HP is your original HP value and DR is your original DR value.
The left side is the fractional increase in HP. The right side is the fraction of damage remaining that is *not* mitigated.
So if your original DR value is 30% and you want to add a +8 AC cloak, then y = 0.04 and y/(1-DR) = 0.0571.
So you would need a fractional increase of 5.7% of HP in order to have an equivalent effect in terms of HP. So if your base HP is 25000, you would need to stack 1429 HP in order to have an equivalent effect. If you stack more than 1429 HP, then HP is more effective. If you stack less than 1429 HP, than the +8 AC is more effective.
Tankier builds are better suited for PvP.
Whoever wrote that AC is unique thing to stack on a CW doesn't know how to play a CW.
Hp's Always welcomed, but it's not Necessary to have on a CW. Most good CW's don't stack more than 30k HP for one obvious reason - mobs can't kill you if you kill them first.
However, I wholeheartedly suggest to new players of CW class to start by using Magelord Set, then slowly progressing towards the Damage builds for one simple reason - you can't learn to be a good CW by trying just one thing.
For me Black Ice set is imperative, I run HV Renegade with great micromanagment focus on Combat Advantage which is why the CA inclusive Artifacts are my sort of a thing.
Feats which I use do not give a lot of HP, truly, but they do give me a lot of AP/REC gain which is why I needn't anything else besides more DPS. I run with 7k Power and 16k GS I'm quite evenly matched with people who run much better builds than me (I've seen people with 13k Power who couldn't come close to the DPS I did, despite the fact that I was the one who did all the debuffs and evenly gave them the same (even bigger) ratio of damage increase. Luckily, I didn't die 7 times :} and I'm not even running the OPTIMAL build for DPS.
It just means one thing. Build means nothing if you've got no skill. What one person uses means nothing without the very person who utilize it. Experimentation is required, and artifact gear is no exclusion.
Given the attributes that Black Ice gives means much more to me.
Whoever wants to go one set of artifact belt solely for the purpose of AP gain, just buy one Sunlord's Gift ffs and use Lathander's Dew
How is that a lot better? Almost every piece of CW gear has recovery on it. I doubt it's adding even 0.0005% to recharge speed.
Now, with your analysis:
You are comparing HP from a RING VS the AC from a CLOAK. You are comparing apples vs pears you can have all that HP from the rings you want AND the +8AC.
What we are comparing is
4% AP each 3 secs VS +8AC
And I can put you lots of examples when the +4% DR will make a difference and 1 Oppresive force each 75 secs wont.
This is the same kind of discussion that we had allways since mod 1 we had 28k HP and 2k Def CWs and glass cannon CWs with 500 def and 20k HP. Is the same issue and everyone will play the way they feel better, I am only arguing that being more tanky usually gives you more DPS than people think.
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I'm not, because AP is usually easy to gain in PvE because of hitting tons of monsters, whereas in PvP your targets are limited. Assured refill over time is very useful.
Meanwhile, if you're doing these big pulls in PvE, lots of stuff is trying to hurt you at once, and having the damage resistance to survive that is a big deal.
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Dang, Les, we should probably just uninstall and play CoD for we clearly don't know how to CW.
Best point in this thread by miles:
Well you can't compare directly an offensive stat like AP gain with a defensive stat like AC.
So my reasoning was, if you equip the BI cloak over the Lathander cloak, you are gaining a offensive stat but losing a defensive stat. Since there is no other way to obtain AC as you pointed out, then the only real substitute possible is to increase Defense or increase HP. Since the BI cloak has ArP and, as others pointed out, people are starting to get overstacked on ArP with the inclusion of things like Archmage rings, one possible substitute is to replace an Archmage ring with a Hero ring.
That was why I made the comparison that I did.
The hero / archmage ring is another decision. More HP/ deflect or more power/armPen. Again more defensive vs more offensive.
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Wow, an attempt of sarcasm. Surely, you're not trying to make a valid micromanagment decision regarding a 3-4% AP gain versus AC stat that will somehow magically make a CW not-dodge the incoming DPS, besides the fact that Renegade outheals everything in his path and that Life-Steal is swell on a Thaum CW while also not forgetting the important factor of precise timing between the EotS activation and the mere fact that, well, people don't really build a lot of AP gain overall as a DPS PvE SS CW to begin with.
With the optimal DPS thingy called HV set, you can't really build a lot of HP without discarding some DPS in the longer run. It's possible to go up to 37k with HV and new rings, etc, probably going to get a bit extra if using Draconic Orb + Amulet before getting the artifact weaponry set, but in all truth as a CW you have to dodge in order to find that special place and unleash the fury and most of the times you won't be holding up aggro in dungeons and, if you go with another CW in the party it's even easier.
You have three-four dodges + a controlling spell called Steal Time, not to mention the ability to freeze anything in your path with six stacks of chill, and 4 sec of fury unleashing EotS+StormSpell. Why, in hell, would you want more AC on a PvE build is beyond me, but AP gain to me seems far more reasonable to take rather than the AC which won't benefit the optimal CW build, unless you run CON build. Gandalf or no Gandalf, this is the truth and I don't see what's so hard to choose here. If anything, it's rather nitpicking trough a blanch innuendo against AP gain.
If you want to be a tankier CW with more sustain, go Renegade. Regards.
When running with another mage who has it, I think you're better off with draconic set which boosts everyone's cooldown.
Draconic needs to be builded differently than HV, it adds no recovery and some critic/ArPen. With that setup, BI cloak seems redundant, especially the ArPen stat.
A draconic mage is better of with Imperial Cloak.
Another thing about Lifesteal, yes it's awesome and gives more sustain, but it's useless if you get one shot. Which can happen in tiamat or in IWD.
But here you go:
+8AC doesnt make you magically immune to all the red areas, and 4% ap every 3 secs doesnt make you a OF spammer also.
It helps to be more tough and with a good defense and HP (sacrificing 0 offense with new items) you can get a good resistance wich makes you be better in your role, and not depend on a GF like other CWs or not being a bumping man that runs like a chicken when your encounters are on CD. Lifesteal and Renegade heals doesn't matter when you are dead by 1 shot that can be resisted with a good DR and HP combination. Mistakes happen, lag spikes, etc. Maybe you never make mistakes or have lag spikes but well it happens to normal people.
You talk about optimal DPS and include Draconic Orb-amulet in the phrase or that you are usually not holding agro, seems that we play in different leagues and that explains lots of things. Even with GFs in the group, you should have the agro if you are doing what you should. At some point you will understand other "optimal" ways to play your CW.
I found CWs with 60% recharge speed and 50% ap gain doing a nice DPS, and other builds that you would call "bad builds" because you didnt even test or cant even imagine that can do the job. Eye of the Storm is 6 secs not 4, and soon new meta will be Chilling presence when chilling advantage is fixed. And yes I am renegade, and it doesnt make you tankier in pve. Lifesteal or healing doesnt make you tankier. DR and HP do.
Just open your mind, you will find lots of things, builds, and options to explore that can surprise you, sometimes in a way you didnt spect.
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