Renegades don't stack with each other do they? I remember reading about that at some point
Well, first of all nightmare wizardry bonus is not stackable, which is a major renegade buff.
This is same as how many CW abilites don't overstack. Remember HV stacks to 3, SW stacks to 3, Swath of Destruction isn't stackable, GPF isn't stackable beyond 3, P.Terror isn't stackable, etc...
I am not 100% certain that chaos magic isnt' stackable, but my impression is that anyone can only have one of the three buffs active at the same time.
Now, this actually makes sense, because if these things were stackable - buffs multiply and the result would make stacking CWs OP. It's obvious that the devs don't want any class, while stacked, to be OP.
That's why if you have multiple CWs the best option is for them to use different enchants and run different specs, so each one contributes a different set of buffs and debuffs to the team.
Yeah I meant the capstone, my main issue with nightmare wizardry is how often it is redundant which can unfortunately be true of the capstone. If you could be sure everyone wasn't balls deep into their rotation before you get a proc it would be one thing but it seems you can only count on it being relevant in a boss fight.
Yeah, Steal Time Critting 50k without much effort is pretty much imho. What's with "you didn't play mod bla bla" attitude there? Look at my joining date ffs :rolleyes:
And, on the other hand, look at my post more before jumping into conclusions. You'd save me a lot of trouble having to type over again, stating the obvious etc.
Also, when Chilling Advantage gets worked on and with so many nice belts lying around with CHA and INT I wouldn't be surprised to see one P.Vorp on me and go with a crazy random mayhem of crits. And actually go with Arcane Dragon build.
And, yes, a wizard should be much more if he can be much more and only sacrifice like, what, 5% DPS on an average? :rolleyes:
At least all my MoF friends will be glad I give them so much healing in the PT. Fair trade, I'd say.
you're admiring with 50k crits and i just remind you that's nothing comparing to mod3 dps
i highly doubt about 5%. really. difference is much more. but need further tests. unfortunately there're not that much top ren now.
steal on tab - i know that feeling when you start to run as a headless chicken. CA bonus? omg just one descent dmg companion slotted gives much more than ca bonus - it's kind of a joke especially on crits.
so in conclusion. there wasn't a slight insult in my post. unlike in yours. please let's keep ourselves within the bounds.
thank you.
Team effectiveness is the only thing that matters.
Maximum team effectiveness is by buff/debuff stacking since buffs and debuffs MULTIPLY each other.
Hence stacking buffs and debuffs is almost always better than increasing personal dps.
So IMO it is everyone's job to buff and debuff.
For most group content - I would agree.
But for the dragon HE's - I don't agree. Because there are so many people zerging the dragons you have to be a bit of a selfish d!ck in order to get great success, I think. I deliberately don't use RoE and I replace Swath of Destruction with Chilling Presence. Because I DON'T want to buff the group. I don't like doing this, I would rather that people could get great success based on debuffing and buffing alone. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
But for the dragon HE's - I don't agree. Because there are so many people zerging the dragons you have to be a bit of a selfish d!ck in order to get great success, I think. I deliberately don't use RoE and I replace Swath of Destruction with Chilling Presence. Because I DON'T want to buff the group. I don't like doing this, I would rather that people could get great success based on debuffing and buffing alone. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
When i tested on my GF, I had more GS when i was buffing than not buffing.
What we've been doing is finding a low pop instance and killing dragons in teams of 5-10. You are welcome to join. If group is full, follow me using friends list.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited November 2014
My guild does the same thing, Chem. Couple minutes before the event starts, we transfer to the lowest population instance. Last night when we did this, everyone got a great success on every dragon.
I got the feeling he's talking about being more useful to the whole party and you're talking about maximizeing own DPS which is not IMO, the CWs primary role...
But I'm the kind of guy who likes being useful to the party, and I play a MoF/Thaum and an MoF/Oppressor, so what do I know, right? =D
tested renegade on test, but to get nightmare wizardry and masterful arcane theft I have to give up on Twisting Immolation and I'm in love with it so much that I can't bring myself to do it on live...or use Steal Time on tab and miss out on CoI/EF (cause I use tabbed CoI for icing/doting swarms and EF when there are tricky mobs with an entourage or an oppressor friend to instaraise arcane stacks and CC the tricky one)
could be viable for me though if all people would know how to position for CaD, or all the HRs run aspect of the pack and all the GWFs and GFs used their power of marking, which, sadly, is rarely the case.
you're admiring with 50k crits and i just remind you that's nothing comparing to mod3 dps
i highly doubt about 5%. really. difference is much more. but need further tests. unfortunately there're not that much top ren now.
steal on tab - i know that feeling when you start to run as a headless chicken. CA bonus? omg just one descent dmg companion slotted gives much more than ca bonus - it's kind of a joke especially on crits.
so in conclusion. there wasn't a slight insult in my post. unlike in yours. please let's keep ourselves within the bounds.
thank you.
I have no idea what you want to pursue here, but I'll pretend that I care enough to meddle with your obvious lack of knowledge and tests Renegade-wise.
Let's start with first thing here. I don't admire 50.000 Damage on Steal Time on each mob. This is why I stated to you not to jump into the conclusions. I stated that I can do that on the average play without effort. Why do you have a problem with that? If you can produce the same effect with Thaumaturge, without using the (de)buff amplification of other players around you, that's great.
Now, I wouldn't call "50.000" damage on 15 mobs around me "nothing". That's each mob individually, not additively. When I really care, it goes up to 89.000 damage on individual mobs (given that they have enough HP, but most don't).
You doubt about 5% damage drop? Alright. That's fair enough. After all, a small price for tanking millions of damage, not dying, and actually healing millions of HP as well, giving 30% increased Armor Pen and Critical Strike to teammates, alongside 250% weapon damage HP refill and also increased life-steal. Green buff? One happy GWF who'll always go with you because you know what you're doing and how to help them along the line.
There're not that much "top ren" now? Wait until you get P.Vorp Renegades. People are afraid to test and spend money, and chilling advantage is still bugged. To play a Renegade properly you need to be a good cw first and foremost, and to understand the mechanic adequately and where it's applicable and for what purpose.
Yes, Steal Time on spell mastery does make you to run like insane. Only the very experienced players know how to use it's amazing advantage. Referring to the team-play, here.
CA bonus for the entire party? You'll want to actually test that before talking nonsense. Especially in dungeon runs with some heavy CHA people around you, hohoho merry X-mass.
Yes, keep yourself withing the bounds of the internet, or whatever, and, please, don't mind the 50.000 Steal Time critical strikes on the average Renegade build.
Curiously enough, you seem pretty sure yet didn't do any test. That's just blatant conjecture.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
If you count the storm spell procs, my steal time is doing even more than 50k damage with no one else around. That's also with even using a vorpal enchant (I run greater plague).
Well as it turns out you can get different chaos magic procs active at the same time. Did not think that would happen but once I started looking for it I noticed stuff like blue and red versions being on at the same time. I doubt you can get 2 blues or whatever though. That would be too cool. Mixed feelings about in pvp. You can't depend on getting a proc at all let alone the one you want but it obviously helps your fellow players and fighting 1v1 isn't a thing I'm too big on anyway.
Well as it turns out you can get different chaos magic procs active at the same time. Did not think that would happen but once I started looking for it I noticed stuff like blue and red versions being on at the same time. I doubt you can get 2 blues or whatever though. That would be too cool. Mixed feelings about in pvp. You can't depend on getting a proc at all let alone the one you want but it obviously helps your fellow players and fighting 1v1 isn't a thing I'm too big on anyway.
If you have 3 renegade CW, the heal proc should be there all the time!
ah, i started to forget why i do avoid forums.
everytime i'm forced to go and learn to play. ye, sure
i do really hope you have some more fun things to do on your weekend.
and do really hope there'll be more and more renegades. hey, i need your buffs and will gladly join you in any run
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited November 2014
Eh, I don't care what people say. The Renegade tree is fantastic now. The Chaos Magic buffs are amazing, and a substantial boost to the team DPS.
Nightmare Wizardry is wonderful, too. It ENSURES that your team will have 90%+ CA the entire run with no effort. Heh, it might as well be a +15% (or more) damage aura for the team.
Last night, we farmed some skirms for a while...averaged 75% crit. Perfect Vorpal, Epic Erynies, Phantasmal Destruction and Sqush Soup? I'll take my +155% damage on crits
i do really hope you have some more fun things to do on your weekend.
and do really hope there'll be more and more renegades. hey, i need your buffs and will gladly join you in any run
Don't worry, after all it's party-beneficial. Just like when Thaum can't reach the level of Control that Oppressor build has.
Yes, Thaum is the DPS tree, but with the current meta it doesn't matter much. CoI, ST, Icy, Sudden storm, EotS, Storm spell.
After all, Storm Spell alone is the main thing on all SS CWs. The rest is not really important, but the sustain that Renegade gives is AMAZING. I rest my case. Have a great weekend
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
I have no idea what you want to pursue here, but I'll pretend that I care enough to meddle with your obvious lack of knowledge and tests Renegade-wise.
Let's start with first thing here. I don't admire 50.000 Damage on Steal Time on each mob. This is why I stated to you not to jump into the conclusions. I stated that I can do that on the average play without effort. Why do you have a problem with that? If you can produce the same effect with Thaumaturge, without using the (de)buff amplification of other players around you, that's great.
Now, I wouldn't call "50.000" damage on 15 mobs around me "nothing". That's each mob individually, not additively. When I really care, it goes up to 89.000 damage on individual mobs (given that they have enough HP, but most don't).
You doubt about 5% damage drop? Alright. That's fair enough. After all, a small price for tanking millions of damage, not dying, and actually healing millions of HP as well, giving 30% increased Armor Pen and Critical Strike to teammates, alongside 250% weapon damage HP refill and also increased life-steal. Green buff? One happy GWF who'll always go with you because you know what you're doing and how to help them along the line.
There're not that much "top ren" now? Wait until you get P.Vorp Renegades. People are afraid to test and spend money, and chilling advantage is still bugged. To play a Renegade properly you need to be a good cw first and foremost, and to understand the mechanic adequately and where it's applicable and for what purpose.
Yes, Steal Time on spell mastery does make you to run like insane. Only the very experienced players know how to use it's amazing advantage. Referring to the team-play, here.
CA bonus for the entire party? You'll want to actually test that before talking nonsense. Especially in dungeon runs with some heavy CHA people around you, hohoho merry X-mass.
Yes, keep yourself withing the bounds of the internet, or whatever, and, please, don't mind the 50.000 Steal Time critical strikes on the average Renegade build.
Curiously enough, you seem pretty sure yet didn't do any test. That's just blatant conjecture.
CA can really be fantastic. Ran yesterday eLoL with my Trapper with Aspect of the Pack, a Combat HR, two TRs and a DC. CA for everybody in melee was a massive advantage. A CW renegade can do that even better.
Fully agree with those saying that Paingiver doesn´t really mean much. You can be Paingiver and make the dungeon a painful experience for all your mates, and you can not be it and make the run smooth.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Guys, renegades are really good in mod 5. Thaum is more personal dps, by a little. Renegade is likely more team DPS.
People who are complaining about renegades are thinking only about their selves. It's like... not understand what the path is supposed to do anyway? aren't the two best things in that tree team buffs? yes?
so well, truth is renegade is great. Thaum is still great. Discussion ended.
Don't worry, after all it's party-beneficial. Just like when Thaum can't reach the level of Control that Oppressor build has.
Yes, Thaum is the DPS tree, but with the current meta it doesn't matter much. CoI, ST, Icy, Sudden storm, EotS, Storm spell.
After all, Storm Spell alone is the main thing on all SS CWs. The rest is not really important, but the sustain that Renegade gives is AMAZING. I rest my case. Have a great weekend
i totally agree that with Ren runs must go much smoother. i'm just really short of testing by myself. switching to another set of artifacts/pets it's not that easy this Mod (and unfortunately i can't copy my characters to the preview since early of Mod 3 lol).
the problem is that i just stick to my 7-10 guildmates in almost all runs due to some tough experience in pugging and even legit channel and had no chance to party up with qualified ren's for some period. i'm doing for the party what i've supposed to and everyone's happy
and storm spell now can be easily switched to chilling presence in t3 runs and boss fights. tho with 15k+ parties onfront nuking even tough mobs will take you 10-15 sec, so burst damage with storm spell definitely works. however difference between 2 is about half-mil damage for eLoL.
tested renegade on test, but to get nightmare wizardry and masterful arcane theft I have to give up on Twisting Immolation and I'm in love with it so much that I can't bring myself to do it on live...or use Steal Time on tab and miss out on CoI/EF (cause I use tabbed CoI for icing/doting swarms and EF when there are tricky mobs with an entourage or an oppressor friend to instaraise arcane stacks and CC the tricky one)
could be viable for me though if all people would know how to position for CaD, or all the HRs run aspect of the pack and all the GWFs and GFs used their power of marking, which, sadly, is rarely the case.
..also, don't forget that Fury SWs self-buff with CA too, after every crit. CA uptime across the party can be quite high anyway, over the various classes.
Comments
Maximum team effectiveness is by buff/debuff stacking since buffs and debuffs MULTIPLY each other.
Hence stacking buffs and debuffs is almost always better than increasing personal dps.
So IMO it is everyone's job to buff and debuff.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Well, first of all nightmare wizardry bonus is not stackable, which is a major renegade buff.
This is same as how many CW abilites don't overstack. Remember HV stacks to 3, SW stacks to 3, Swath of Destruction isn't stackable, GPF isn't stackable beyond 3, P.Terror isn't stackable, etc...
I am not 100% certain that chaos magic isnt' stackable, but my impression is that anyone can only have one of the three buffs active at the same time.
Now, this actually makes sense, because if these things were stackable - buffs multiply and the result would make stacking CWs OP. It's obvious that the devs don't want any class, while stacked, to be OP.
That's why if you have multiple CWs the best option is for them to use different enchants and run different specs, so each one contributes a different set of buffs and debuffs to the team.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
you're admiring with 50k crits and i just remind you that's nothing comparing to mod3 dps
i highly doubt about 5%. really. difference is much more. but need further tests. unfortunately there're not that much top ren now.
steal on tab - i know that feeling when you start to run as a headless chicken. CA bonus? omg just one descent dmg companion slotted gives much more than ca bonus - it's kind of a joke especially on crits.
so in conclusion. there wasn't a slight insult in my post. unlike in yours. please let's keep ourselves within the bounds.
thank you.
For most group content - I would agree.
But for the dragon HE's - I don't agree. Because there are so many people zerging the dragons you have to be a bit of a selfish d!ck in order to get great success, I think. I deliberately don't use RoE and I replace Swath of Destruction with Chilling Presence. Because I DON'T want to buff the group. I don't like doing this, I would rather that people could get great success based on debuffing and buffing alone. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
When i tested on my GF, I had more GS when i was buffing than not buffing.
What we've been doing is finding a low pop instance and killing dragons in teams of 5-10. You are welcome to join. If group is full, follow me using friends list.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
But I'm the kind of guy who likes being useful to the party, and I play a MoF/Thaum and an MoF/Oppressor, so what do I know, right? =D
tested renegade on test, but to get nightmare wizardry and masterful arcane theft I have to give up on Twisting Immolation and I'm in love with it so much that I can't bring myself to do it on live...or use Steal Time on tab and miss out on CoI/EF (cause I use tabbed CoI for icing/doting swarms and EF when there are tricky mobs with an entourage or an oppressor friend to instaraise arcane stacks and CC the tricky one)
could be viable for me though if all people would know how to position for CaD, or all the HRs run aspect of the pack and all the GWFs and GFs used their power of marking, which, sadly, is rarely the case.
I have no idea what you want to pursue here, but I'll pretend that I care enough to meddle with your obvious lack of knowledge and tests Renegade-wise.
Let's start with first thing here. I don't admire 50.000 Damage on Steal Time on each mob. This is why I stated to you not to jump into the conclusions. I stated that I can do that on the average play without effort. Why do you have a problem with that? If you can produce the same effect with Thaumaturge, without using the (de)buff amplification of other players around you, that's great.
Now, I wouldn't call "50.000" damage on 15 mobs around me "nothing". That's each mob individually, not additively. When I really care, it goes up to 89.000 damage on individual mobs (given that they have enough HP, but most don't).
You doubt about 5% damage drop? Alright. That's fair enough. After all, a small price for tanking millions of damage, not dying, and actually healing millions of HP as well, giving 30% increased Armor Pen and Critical Strike to teammates, alongside 250% weapon damage HP refill and also increased life-steal. Green buff? One happy GWF who'll always go with you because you know what you're doing and how to help them along the line.
There're not that much "top ren" now? Wait until you get P.Vorp Renegades. People are afraid to test and spend money, and chilling advantage is still bugged. To play a Renegade properly you need to be a good cw first and foremost, and to understand the mechanic adequately and where it's applicable and for what purpose.
Yes, Steal Time on spell mastery does make you to run like insane. Only the very experienced players know how to use it's amazing advantage. Referring to the team-play, here.
CA bonus for the entire party? You'll want to actually test that before talking nonsense. Especially in dungeon runs with some heavy CHA people around you, hohoho merry X-mass.
Yes, keep yourself withing the bounds of the internet, or whatever, and, please, don't mind the 50.000 Steal Time critical strikes on the average Renegade build.
Curiously enough, you seem pretty sure yet didn't do any test. That's just blatant conjecture.
If you have 3 renegade CW, the heal proc should be there all the time!
everytime i'm forced to go and learn to play. ye, sure
i do really hope you have some more fun things to do on your weekend.
and do really hope there'll be more and more renegades. hey, i need your buffs and will gladly join you in any run
Nightmare Wizardry is wonderful, too. It ENSURES that your team will have 90%+ CA the entire run with no effort. Heh, it might as well be a +15% (or more) damage aura for the team.
Last night, we farmed some skirms for a while...averaged 75% crit. Perfect Vorpal, Epic Erynies, Phantasmal Destruction and Sqush Soup? I'll take my +155% damage on crits
Don't worry, after all it's party-beneficial. Just like when Thaum can't reach the level of Control that Oppressor build has.
Yes, Thaum is the DPS tree, but with the current meta it doesn't matter much. CoI, ST, Icy, Sudden storm, EotS, Storm spell.
After all, Storm Spell alone is the main thing on all SS CWs. The rest is not really important, but the sustain that Renegade gives is AMAZING. I rest my case. Have a great weekend
CA can really be fantastic. Ran yesterday eLoL with my Trapper with Aspect of the Pack, a Combat HR, two TRs and a DC. CA for everybody in melee was a massive advantage. A CW renegade can do that even better.
Fully agree with those saying that Paingiver doesn´t really mean much. You can be Paingiver and make the dungeon a painful experience for all your mates, and you can not be it and make the run smooth.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
People who are complaining about renegades are thinking only about their selves. It's like... not understand what the path is supposed to do anyway? aren't the two best things in that tree team buffs? yes?
so well, truth is renegade is great. Thaum is still great. Discussion ended.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
i totally agree that with Ren runs must go much smoother. i'm just really short of testing by myself. switching to another set of artifacts/pets it's not that easy this Mod (and unfortunately i can't copy my characters to the preview since early of Mod 3 lol).
the problem is that i just stick to my 7-10 guildmates in almost all runs due to some tough experience in pugging and even legit channel and had no chance to party up with qualified ren's for some period. i'm doing for the party what i've supposed to and everyone's happy
and storm spell now can be easily switched to chilling presence in t3 runs and boss fights. tho with 15k+ parties onfront nuking even tough mobs will take you 10-15 sec, so burst damage with storm spell definitely works. however difference between 2 is about half-mil damage for eLoL.
Superb!
Now CW should heal and DC should dps?
Opposite day much?
..also, don't forget that Fury SWs self-buff with CA too, after every crit. CA uptime across the party can be quite high anyway, over the various classes.