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Forums > Home› Class Forums› The Library

Renegade is not better than Thaum after all!

kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
edited November 2014 in The Library
I just tested on Dread Ring dummies for 5 mins I can do 44-48k dps with the same thaum build.

I can do only 41-42k dps only with renegade with Blink dog.
Roughly the same with feated chilling presence.

I could do 50k dps(...) with Renegade on preview a week ago but probably they changed something or fixed something strenghtening only my opinion that GWF(deep gash), SW(TT) and TR bugs can exist on live for half a year or months while CW things are fixed right away on preview state.

So thanks mod5 for nothing!

Only good thing that thaum remained the same.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • hfgtfsdfshfgtfsdfs Member Posts: 688 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Well you cant really see the buffs from Renegade for your teammates against dummies. And as I understand it chilling advantage isn't even working as Renegade so that cripples the whole build.
    ZengiaH@ejziponken
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The buffs Renegades bring to the group are pretty crazy. That's why you go Renegade. Not for the personal DPS boost, but because of the team boost.

    And even in that regard, unless you're trying to test something very specific in a controlled setting...Training Dummies are very "eh" for testing how effective a build actually is. It takes a lot of comparative runs in dungeons and skirmishes, or at least running through a bunch of HE's to really test out a build.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    kozi001 wrote: »
    So thanks mod5 for nothing!

    I think your expectations were unrealistic. Developers have said all along that they consider Thaumaturge to be the DPS tree. It sounds like the only way you would have been happy is if the Renegade tree could out-DPS the DPS tree.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Thaumaturgy is the power tree, Renegade is the crit tree.
    Just like scoundrel(power). Executironer(crit).
    Nobody said that one couldn't be better than the other forverer.

    I just waited that 50k dps but its obviously never reached live...
  • ychiakiychiaki Member Posts: 123 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    kozi001 wrote: »
    Thaumaturgy is the power tree, Renegade is the crit tree.
    Just like scoundrel(power). Executironer(crit).
    Nobody said that one couldn't be better than the other forverer.

    I just waited that 50k dps but its obviously never reached live...

    That was way too long ago. Ever since CW rework, devs stated that thamaturge is the dps tree, oppressor the cc and renegade would be party buff.
    DC Divine Oracle Faithful
    HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
    GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
    CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
    TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
    SW Soulbinder Fury
  • smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I'm willing to bet you didn't have CA artifacts.

    I wouldn't be surprised either if you only have one CA pet and with the blink dog being just green.
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ychiaki wrote: »
    That was way too long ago. Ever since CW rework, devs stated that thamaturge is the dps tree, oppressor the cc and renegade would be party buff.

    In mod3 thaum was the party buff.

    I am only sad and disappointed because renegade was so good on preview not so long ago...
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    But...by your own tests, the only difference is like what 8%? Compared with the absolute killer team buffs from the Renegade, I wouldn't quibble over 8%.

    A Renegade CW is far more valuable to the party than a Thaumaturge.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    This does need further testing, but the damage isn't that bad at all, especially for MOD5 purposes and the higher demand for active HP boost.

    Say, you don't have a DC in a party. Renegade SS will be one of the best assets to have in the team. And you may freely go and stack up to 40k HP with a Renegade casual PvE build for that matter.


    BUT, i think that this should be more of a talk between Chilling Presence vs Eye of the Storm, but the burst DPS that exists in Renegade requires a more straightforward spell choice rather than relying on ticks which CoI or Icy Terrain bring up.

    But, here's the catch, to utilize DPS in Renegade you need to use Sudden Storm. A lot. And make sure that each time it crits. A lot. So you need to invest more in the Critical Chance and higher Critical Strike numbers, while keeping your power relatively low. Which will ultimately hurt your overall DPS.

    The Bad thing about Renegade skill tree is the fact that some useful spells are not utilized good and you'd need to invest in things you won't use to begin with, which will, again, hurt your overall DPS.

    Thaum, on the other hand, gets far more while utilizing AoE build.

    However, I think that a Renegade will work much better with a proper MoF, but the timing needs to be very, very good! The burst will be amazing.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Renegade -> Thaum because of the group buffs.

    Plus, the personal damage from Renegade is more than solid as well.
  • helpimblindinrlhelpimblindinrl Member Posts: 972 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Renegade isn't bad but I'm not loving it either. Chaos magic is stronger than it was but the chance to proc on damage annoys me no end.

    I like I assume the rest of you spent some time mob slaying in brown dreadring today and yesterday and I paid a lot of attention to what effect I got but I found a lot of the time the effect would go on really late. Like you can be 3 encounters deep into your rotation and nothing. I read the notes about it not applying too fast on multitick powers so I used chillstrike as an opener and still a lot of the time it was very delayed. At one point I at willed a mob and it was like on the third mm rotation I finally got a proc.

    I could care less if it gives broadly similar sustained damage on a training dummy if in practice half the time everything dies and it oh look our buddy the renegade gave us more crit chance. Maybe it will last till be get another train going.

    So yeah. Not sure what to make of it. And on the other hand who cares with a lot of gear you can hulk smash all pve anyway.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    Now that the Chaos magic procs have been fixed (or nerfed), is the healing from Chaos growth still noticeable?
  • helpimblindinrlhelpimblindinrl Member Posts: 972 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Its hard to tell. I did mc earlier and I did it shortly before the patch. Didn't really notice any dramatic increase in tankiness but given how fast we squish things and the average lifesteal a high gs cw has its a very so what thing any day of the week.

    Haven't been in dom and it might take a while until they fix demise. I can't imagine that's fun to fight. Only been in gg and giving the buffs to people seems nice but I'm only queueing for guaranteed wins to get the title so I dunno. The major issue is the timing of the thing and that's only going to be worse if you want 1 of 3 things.
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    They either buffed my damage or nerfed the mobs. I'm now killing stuff much faster. Renegade needs a lot of skill and practice to beat a good Thaum. I could beat most in mod 3. I don't yet know if I can do it now, since I run with some very good thaums, and have mostly been doing LoL and SoT, where I can not do much damage at all.
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Three things man -

    a) Renegade is a team DPS tree, not a personal DPS tree. Thaum SHOULD do more damage when you are solo.

    b) Like smulch says, CA artifacts and pets can boost your damage significantly

    C) Your charisma rating is also important

    d) Chilling advantage is bugged

    So really, you SHOULD do a little less personal DPS with renegade than thaum. Your test, being about 15% less is a bit much, it should be more like 5-10% less. However your TEAM should have more DPS as renegade.

    I bet things are fine. You can't measure all that much by beating on dummies.
    http://chemboy613.tumblr.com/ - Neverwinter Photoblog

    Everything you need to know about CW:

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Obviously I used epic Blink Dog and lantern.

    Maybe I should level a CHA belt to yellow but after 50k dps->42k dps? (Probably the Chaos magic proccing nerf did the trick...)
    No way I invest in Renegade!

    By Fine you mean you can't have dps unless you are on SW then you are right!
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Too many people care about the Paingiver title...
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    Too many people care about the Paingiver title...

    ^ This

    I've been saying this for a long time.
    I aim to misbehave
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    That would be a CW forum to make our CW better...

    There are great support classes in the game. I recommend yout to play DC and GF!
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    chemboy613 wrote: »
    Three things man -

    a) Renegade is a team DPS tree, not a personal DPS tree. Thaum SHOULD do more damage when you are solo.

    b) Like smulch says, CA artifacts and pets can boost your damage significantly

    C) Your charisma rating is also important

    d) Chilling advantage is bugged

    So really, you SHOULD do a little less personal DPS with renegade than thaum. Your test, being about 15% less is a bit much, it should be more like 5-10% less. However your TEAM should have more DPS as renegade.

    I bet things are fine. You can't measure all that much by beating on dummies.

    I'll have to support this.

    - PvE-wise I didn't notice any big significance to the Paingiver. In fact on the average 20.000.000 I have around 19.000.000 compared to a fully equipped/buffed SS Thaum.
    - Healing-wise, hell yeah, this is the best thing ever on a CW. I tank things! Better than GFs and GWFs. I easily go with more regen and I can HOLD OUT the Black Ice IWD situations (events) with much ease. I don't have to spend a lot of stamina, and I don't even have a lot of HP either currently. With more HP this build would be so good.
    - HV + Plaguefire + Steal Time on tab (constant Combat Advantage).

    So, DPS is good. 9 out of 10 without much effort and the average 6-7k Power. Burst is amazing! 50k Crit with Steal time.
    Healing is 10 out of 10. Now, SS can repay others for their effort et cetera. Good. I see healing as much as 35k green.
    Buffs? Renegade gives. Debuff? Renegade Gives. Ability to change anytime to anything? Just change the suit.

    So, overall, I'm amazed by the Renegade currently and I think it'll be PvP viable with a CON build and end-game gear.

    I ran several tests with Chilling slotted as paragon, didn't like it, remained with the EotS and still managed to do a full rotation.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • commanderdata001commanderdata001 Member Posts: 307 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    c1k4ml3kc3 wrote: »

    So, DPS is good. 9 out of 10 without much effort and the average 6-7k Power. Burst is amazing! 50k Crit with Steal time.

    "Burst is amazing?" "50k crit?"
    Yeah! You clearly didn't play with CW in mod3...
  • smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    You didn't do 50k crits in mod 3 except with shard or a daily.
  • commanderdata001commanderdata001 Member Posts: 307 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    and sudden
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    Too many people care about the Paingiver title...

    +100

    Stop looking at paingiver. Play better. Be happy.
    http://chemboy613.tumblr.com/ - Neverwinter Photoblog

    Everything you need to know about CW:

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
  • veshorokveshorok Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 127 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    50k? you think that's much? i can watch 70k+ on steal quite regularly, 40k+ green numbers for healing..
    and ye, i'm not speaking about mod3 with 200k crits from sudden.
    9/10..honestly i'm not sure that was any descent ss thaum. adding all buffs from ren i'd say it'd be closer to 7/10.
    but really who cares about super party buffs if you can stand in red and clearing packs still wearing mod1 clothes.
    i just take my fellow guild gf and dc to the run if i want to do it faster.
    too many ppl pay too much attention to be good at everything.
    i'm good at one thing and that's pretty enough for me.
    tho i'll try to test renegade more intensively after double refinement weekend. now it's just a bit costy to waste all saved res.stones and sapphires.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    veshorok wrote: »
    50k? you think that's much? i can watch 70k+ on steal quite regularly, 40k+ green numbers for healing..
    and ye, i'm not speaking about mod3 with 200k crits from sudden.
    9/10..honestly i'm not sure that was any descent ss thaum. adding all buffs from ren i'd say it'd be closer to 7/10.
    but really who cares about super party buffs if you can stand in red and clearing packs still wearing mod1 clothes.
    i just take my fellow guild gf and dc to the run if i want to do it faster.
    too many ppl pay too much attention to be good at everything.
    i'm good at one thing and that's pretty enough for me.
    tho i'll try to test renegade more intensively after double refinement weekend. now it's just a bit costy to waste all saved res.stones and sapphires.

    I'm staying thaum for playstyle reasons, but I don't think renegade is worse - so i'm glad to defend them. Personally i think they might be a little better than us thaums, but it's highly varriable.
    http://chemboy613.tumblr.com/ - Neverwinter Photoblog

    Everything you need to know about CW:

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    veshorok wrote: »
    50k? you think that's much? i can watch 70k+ on steal quite regularly, 40k+ green numbers for healing..
    and ye, i'm not speaking about mod3 with 200k crits from sudden.

    Wow, you must be so pro! :eek:

    Yeah, Steal Time Critting 50k without much effort is pretty much imho. What's with "you didn't play mod bla bla" attitude there? Look at my joining date ffs :rolleyes:

    And, on the other hand, look at my post more before jumping into conclusions. You'd save me a lot of trouble having to type over again, stating the obvious etc.

    Also, when Chilling Advantage gets worked on and with so many nice belts lying around with CHA and INT I wouldn't be surprised to see one P.Vorp on me and go with a crazy random mayhem of crits. And actually go with Arcane Dragon build.

    And, yes, a wizard should be much more if he can be much more and only sacrifice like, what, 5% DPS on an average? :rolleyes:

    At least all my MoF friends will be glad I give them so much healing in the PT. Fair trade, I'd say. :o
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • yukimaru153yukimaru153 Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    The buffs Renegades bring to the group are pretty crazy. That's why you go Renegade. Not for the personal DPS boost, but because of the team boost.

    And even in that regard, unless you're trying to test something very specific in a controlled setting...Training Dummies are very "eh" for testing how effective a build actually is. It takes a lot of comparative runs in dungeons and skirmishes, or at least running through a bunch of HE's to really test out a build.

    wow normally I dont agree with you but everything you said here is right on the money ^^
  • yukimaru153yukimaru153 Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    c1k4ml3kc3 wrote: »
    Wow, you must be so pro! :eek:

    Yeah, Steal Time Critting 50k without much effort is pretty much imho. What's with "you didn't play mod bla bla" attitude there? Look at my joining date ffs :rolleyes:

    And, on the other hand, look at my post more before jumping into conclusions. You'd save me a lot of trouble having to type over again, stating the obvious etc.

    Also, when Chilling Advantage gets worked on and with so many nice belts lying around with CHA and INT I wouldn't be surprised to see one P.Vorp on me and go with a crazy random mayhem of crits. And actually go with Arcane Dragon build.

    And, yes, a wizard should be much more if he can be much more and only sacrifice like, what, 5% DPS on an average? :rolleyes:

    At least all my MoF friends will be glad I give them so much healing in the PT. Fair trade, I'd say. :o

    hellz ya! I'm not worried about being at the top of the dps charts either. I like being about to turn scrubs into super heros XD buffs buffs buffs for everyone!!! XD lol
  • commanderdata001commanderdata001 Member Posts: 307 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    I use my clercic to buff and my CW to dps if you excuse me!
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