I always look at it like this. If you need it then need it. All armor should be BOP. What a lot of people get pissed about is when you have people who do not need it.But all the time roll need from blues up. I pass on all rings and necklaces. Hell on certain drops I have been booted before I even had a chance to greed before. That really pisses me off. I say put a cool down before you can boot someone after a boss drop. And a lot of these problems are from gold sellers. They wont run in groups and farm. They pug a lot. Makes the boss happy
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
Agreed. No wonder people don't pug anymore. I wouldn't run any dungeon without guildies or /legit. Without them I'd have quit a long time ago since cryptic does nothing to protect the players from their rightful drops.
Legit is good.
Seriously, kick for needing on BoP gear? I find this disgusting.
All my runs are greed all runs, but the TR armor drops and there is a TR in party? The only thing i say is "grats!"
Do you have any idea how many people I have done runs with needing on every item they can because they "need AD?"
Yet some of us still hate the Greed system, if players have the gut to kick someone out for an item you can only salvage for 10k, i dont know what makes them so sure that these same players wont have the gut to need on items they dont even need, but want to sell.
Sure when things like this happens it sucks, im not going to lie or try and make myself as if i know everything, OP shouldnt have gotten kicked, especially due to the fact that no one told him the rules, sometimes when you join dungeon at the end only thing you think about is to get in and kill the boss, maybe party members forgot aswell, so it no one's fault, but kicking someone for 10k?
You think The "greed" mentality is getting out of hand? just imagine what would have happened with the "Need" mentality, where everyone will be needing every epic they can.
Lol i barely come across players these days that will greed or pass on any item that is for their class, so if players dont even want to pass on their classes blue loots, why would they pass on their classes epic loots?
And kicking after the final boss is dead is an exploit. It's simple.
Kicking without a reason is an annoying jerk move. Especially after the boss died. However nothing in the OPs post says this happened without reason. He didn't list the groups loot rules, instead he talked about how he doesn't like all greed rules. Sure makes it sound like he broke the groups rules and didn't like being punished for it. We won't even know though, as we weren't there.
BOP stuff has value as its salvageable. I told people when the salvage system was added that players would start rolling on BOP stuff they can't use for the salvage value. A person would rather have 8K-10K rough diamonds from a run than none. People just scoffed and said it wouldn't be an issue. Imo the whole loot system needs an overhaul.
It is incumbent on YOU as party leader to tell new arrivals that you want a GRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRRRUUUUNNNNNAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!
And I will leave you to your childish, greedy, immature and moronically selfish behaviour and exit.
The intended spirit and design of the game's code is:
NEED if you can
GREED if you can't
PASS if you do not care.
This is incontrovertible and cannot be denied.
If YOU choose to pervert, cheat and exploit the code to your own advantage by enforcing the use of the feature in a manner for which it was never intended or designed, then go and exploit someone else. Preferably in a different game. You will not be delving in the same party as ME.
then I will never join you. You will not have to say. The question will never arise.
But if I join a normal Dungeon Delve PuG queue it WILL be played as the designers intended, with NO exploits, including not exploiting other players by using some bizarre, self-entitled, warped and perverted logic.
That is:
NEED if you can
GREED if you can't
PASS if you do not care
THAT is how the game is intended to be played. THAT is how the Need or Greed mechanic is intended to be used. Perverters, Twisters and Exploiters have to say if they want to do it different.
It is incumbent on YOU as party leader to tell new arrivals that you want a GRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRRRUUUUNNNNNAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!
And I will leave you to your childish, greedy, immature and moronically selfish behaviour and exit.
The intended spirit and design of the game's code is:
NEED if you can
GREED if you can't
PASS if you do not care.
This is incontrovertible and cannot be denied.
If YOU choose to pervert, cheat and exploit the code to your own advantage by enforcing the use of the feature in a manner for which it was never intended or designed, then go and exploit someone else. Preferably in a different game. You will not be delving in the same party as ME.
then I will never join you. You will not have to say. The question will never arise.
But if I join a normal Dungeon Delve PuG queue it WILL be played as the designers intended, with NO exploits, including not exploiting other players by using some bizarre, self-entitled, warped and perverted logic.
That is:
NEED if you can
GREED if you can't
PASS if you do not care
THAT is how the game is intended to be played. THAT is how the Need or Greed mechanic is intended to be used. Perverters, Twisters and Exploiters have to say if they want to do it different.
But they will not be doing it with me.
:mad:
Really this is how you make a point? by insulting the other party?
It appears you lack the decency to acknowledge other players views and opinions, that alone in itself shows who the child kid is here.
You cant even respect another man's opinion and yet you are the one calling others immature?
It is incumbent on YOU as party leader to tell new arrivals that you want a GRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRRRUUUUNNNNNAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!
And I will leave you to your childish, greedy, immature and moronically selfish behaviour and exit.
The intended spirit and design of the game's code is:
NEED if you can
GREED if you can't
PASS if you do not care.
This is incontrovertible and cannot be denied.
If YOU choose to pervert, cheat and exploit the code to your own advantage by enforcing the use of the feature in a manner for which it was never intended or designed, then go and exploit someone else. Preferably in a different game. You will not be delving in the same party as ME.
then I will never join you. You will not have to say. The question will never arise.
But if I join a normal Dungeon Delve PuG queue it WILL be played as the designers intended, with NO exploits, including not exploiting other players by using some bizarre, self-entitled, warped and perverted logic.
That is:
NEED if you can
GREED if you can't
PASS if you do not care
THAT is how the game is intended to be played. THAT is how the Need or Greed mechanic is intended to be used. Perverters, Twisters and Exploiters have to say if they want to do it different.
But they will not be doing it with me.
:mad:
Thats how a greedy person would put it.
Need= screw you guys this piece is mine.
Greed= aww man i wish i could need on this and screw these guys and this piece would be mine.
and lol @ you thinking it is the existing party members that have to instruct the new guy to the group. You are all about YOU and noone else. Selfish people like you ruin games, and forums with self righteous posts that only show how greedy you are.
THAT is how the game is intended to be played. THAT is how the Need or Greed mechanic is intended to be used. Perverters, Twisters and Exploiters have to say if they want to do it different.
But they will not be doing it with me.
:mad:
That is an awful argument. The game is intended to be not botted as well so does that mean we can't buy any of the cheap refining stones?
Like a lot of people said, learn to use party chat learn to communicate. ASK the group when you enter what type of run it is. It isn't the way the game is coded but that's the way most of Neverwinter's community play. If you don't, you are only hurting yourself by the possible unfortunate consequences that may occur later.
Yeah, yeah, keep perverting the design and intent of the game by deluding yourself you have a valid point about GRRRREEEEEDDDD!!! being more "fair" because you are saying:
"That item is for the other guy, but I got a chance to STEAL it because we're making that nub GRRRREEEEEEEDDDDD on everything!"
That is NOT what it is intended for and therefore it is an EXPLOIT.
And later on, in another run, he'll get a chance to steal YOUR drop - what is the point of that?
The RNG decides who the drop is for, NEED or GREED decides who actually gets it if there is more than one of the same class in the party.
There is nothing immature, selfish or greedy about playing the game properly, according to the rules. Quite the reverse, in fact.
If you are doing Epic dungeons only for 10k AD Salvage, maybe you should level up Leadership. Or play a different game?
That is an awful argument. The game is intended to be not botted as well so does that mean we can't buy any of the cheap refining stones?
Like a lot of people said, learn to use party chat learn to communicate. ASK the group when you enter what type of run it is. It isn't the way the game is coded but that's the way most of Neverwinter's community play. If you don't, you are only hurting yourself by the possible unfortunate consequences that may occur later.
One word Ego, one of those players that thinks they are better than anyone else.
Greed runs are the direct result and arises from greed, there is no denying it. This is due to the imbalance of class gear value and a system that allows a class to click NEED on a corresponding class drop where others have no choice to roll for it.
Vote kick is the enforcer of that greed.
Ideally, the NEED/GREED/PASS system is meant for Need if it's your class gear and it's something you don't already have or require, GREED if you no longer need it so everyone can get a chance roll and salvage or sell it, PASS if you don't want it at all.
This game is such a money grab that the community is pretty much on the selfish or unsavory side such that the loot system becomes NEED if you can, GREED if you can't and KICK if some one NEEDS and you can't.
If players were more mature about the system, the loot system isn't a problem at all. I organise groups without specifying group rules, unless some asks if it's a greed run, then I'll just go 'Sure' because it's what they have come to expect. But when I roll loot, I never click NEED on class gear ever if I don't really need it. I don't need to specify rules for others, I simply do what mature gamers would in fair play by myself and leave others to their own morality. I don't even bother to kick players if they consistently need drops.
Yeah, yeah, keep perverting the design and intent of the game by deluding yourself you have a valid point about GRRRREEEEEDDDD!!! being more "fair" because you are saying:
Your reasoning won't change the situation. Players have been "perverting the design and intent" of games for decades. Some aspects of games (such as agro and pulling) actually started out with different intents and players changed them.
The RNG decides who the drop is for, NEED or GREED decides who actually gets it if there is more than one of the same class in the party.
Need/Greed is a terrible system. Its used in many games because its simple to implement or easily copied, and in every one of them players argue like this about it. Players make the best on it by deciding their own group rules (greed runs). If you don't like a groups rules, don't run with that group - make your own.
There is nothing immature, selfish or greedy about playing the game properly, according to the rules. Quite the reverse, in fact.
If you are doing Epic dungeons only for 10k AD Salvage, maybe you should level up Leadership. Or play a different game?
:mad:
Don't go there. Not everyone agrees with your version of proper. And trying to roll need in a declared greed run is a selfish/jerk move. Whatever excuse you have about 10K being small change doesn't alter that fact.
This is a highly contested issue. Some players like greed runs. Others hate greed runs. As long as Neverwinter uses the Need/Greed system there will be arguments that pop up about it. That's just life. The real problem in this is that we don't have a system to divide players by loot preference. And the whole issue is made practically explosive when you have people who think everyone else in the group should play like they do, and anyone else is just wrong.
This entire thread is I'm crying because or i'm defending because I dislike/like the use of greed via player implementation because they don't want to feel like 45mins to 1-1/2 hours of their time was wasted because of the RNG-hell that this game suffers from.
TL;DR boys, if you don't like greed runs its simple - don't go on any, organize a need run.
TL;DR boys, if you don't like need runs its simple - don't go on any, organize a greed run.
Don't expect to pop into a PuG that shares your same views on how drops should be allocated, take the time and effort to shout in zone and lfg to assemble a like-minded team.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable.
A Tool used by those with power to stay in power. I object to your objection
I remember playing with RL friends in another popular MMO (the most popular one). A Robe dropped, BOP that only the priest could use (nobody else could equip it). Definite upgrade for the priest. The rogue rolled on it. When asked why he rolled need and won the item, he stated "I need the money". Suffice to say, the guy wasn't a very good friend before, and a worse friend after. But the rogue felt that his need for gaining money, was more important than the priests need to upgrade equipment. However, that game did not control who could or couldn't roll.
Fast forward to here. The game has already determined the classes that can need for an item when the item dropped. Players don't like that the game enforces need before greed, and they hate the RNG, so they come up with a Greed system where all players greed and therefore making it harder to get the gear you need. Im pretty sure this was created by people running instances where they dont need anything that drops to improve their char, they just want to farm. This slowly seeped into all runs.
The greed run mentality is basically the "I can get something out of it therefore I deserve to be able to roll despite what the game says or what anyone else needs".
Salvaging equipment is a terrible idea and should be scraped - without it, this wouldnt be a problem at all. At the very least, you should only be able to salvage your classes equipment, therefore not stealing loot from others.
Again, the RNG already determined who the loot was for. Greed demands simply want to change that so that the other classes get a second chance.
THAT SAID, I always follow the loot rules, but it should be everyone's responsibility to make sure everyone knows whats agreed upon.
That is NOT what it is intended for and therefore it is an EXPLOIT.
You clearly have no idea what an exploit is. When exploiting you have to unfair gain an advantage in some way upon others. Please tell me how a group agreeing on rules to get the same chance to get on average the same value of loot is an exploit.
Another game I used to play a lot was league of legends. People made their own custom game mode called all random all mid (aram) where you were only allowed to play in the centre lane and not allowed to recall. The game was obviously not designed to be played that way. Yet in the same way, people formed their own groups with people who agreed to the rules. Was it an exploit too? Riot actually eventually made it into an official although more casual game mode.
Honestly I find a lot of peoples attitudes disgusting. Kicking someone needing on BoP gear is low, judging other people for playing their own way is low, ninjaing loot for yourself is low, actually punishing other players for your own gain is low. Your whole argument is pretty similar to those against homosexuality because it "isn't right" or "the way we were made". Yet those people are the true cancer in this world. Personally I'm unsure if we're even deserving as a species with so many disgusting traits.
Im pretty sure this was created by people running instances where they dont need anything that drops to improve their char, they just want to farm.
You're so wrong.
I'm currently farming dungeons for my GF, and even tho i need GF gears i still only do Greed runs.
Even if i was in a Need run, and boss drops GF loot, i will not use that loot, i will sell it in the AH instead, do you know why? because most i have brains (Not saying you dont) and i realized that the primary reason for boss loots from T2 dungeons is to get a little bit of income.
You want to gear up? there is a reason they have chests that can sometimes give you an option to choose from 1/3 of your choice of gear.
withing the last 20 FH runs i have done, boss have never dropped my boots, but i have gotten the choice from chest atleast 13 times to get the best gears.
So sleepy i doubt what i just wrote might make any sense, but oh well.
For those saying make loots bind on pick-up so you cant sell.
How the f am i suppose to make AD? do you think i do runs for charity? (not that i dont help players gear up sometimes) When i joined a dungeon and someone tells me it not speed run i immediatly leave.
So if you join my party and say you dont do greed run, i will ask you to kindly GTFO my party.
Need should be changed to player bound, unsalvageable, no value at vendor. problem solved.
If the person's intent was to sell the item, they will quickly learn that greed is the way to go.
I also agree that rolling need should make gear worthless for anything but equipping. But its only one of many fixes that are needed. Such as separating greed/need players in the first place. Whether everyone likes it or not running dungeons for loot to sell is a part of the game. And one player being able to equip an item shouldn't completely trump the whole reason the rest of the group is there.
The greed agreement only applies to BoE items that are class specific.
... What I suspect is that there was another TR in the group and they kicked the OP because he wanted that, but that doesn't change anything.
That's exactly what I assume myself. Greed on BoE, need on BoP. Frankly, this was the first time I have ever seen 'greed' on DL chest piece, given the rarity of the drop. And no, there was no other TR on the run, so all the fuss was about 10K RAD salvage really. After all, it's not an offhand that one can equip on a companion.
Asking is key. If the people you joined expected greed all and saw you need, even if it is BoP, then I can't blame them for kicking you truly.
The sad truth is that unless you ask or say you want a specific piece of gear beforehand they will assume foul play. Do you have any idea how many people I have done runs with needing on every item they can because they "need AD?"
Mature people are not the average players in any MMO. Spirit of D&D? Bologna. I don't run a charity event. I am not going to run dungeons and consistently get nothing because some screwball thinks he needs AD more than me.
As such you get one chance when needing on epic gear. One. If you continue to need on epic gear when we specifically ask you not to then you will get kicked.
It's a tad bit of a shame people don't give that one chance but at the same time it's normally completely avoidable if you discuss things beforehand. It's FAR more likely you are stealing the 10K AD salvage than needing a BoP item (other than the offhand) to equip it. They can't read minds. All they see is a person needing on 10K AD.
And the spirit of D&D says nothing about assuming people aren't being greedy.
That's called naivety.
‘Greed’ on BoP VT/MC gear is something totally new for me in PuG groups or any other for that matter and I’ve been here for a while. The exceptions are some offhands which can be equipped on companions but they are usually asked for as far as I know. Besides, if a party is stuck and lacks a member and one joins via queue (no other way as of now) then if they have pre-agreed loot rules they should inform the last one joining. Funny that nobody bothered to mention it before we started.
Do you really expect everyone to ask for every piece of loot? What next? Ask what powers I can and cannot use? (ok, I know it is valid sometimes ) Or how I should dye my pants maybe?
It’s both sad and funny for me as, personally, I always assume ‘greed run’ in PuGs and act accordingly but there are widely accepted exceptions as MC/VT BoP drops.
It’s not about charity, it’s about decency. If somebody really thinks that 10k RAD is more important than a full set which is not the easiest to complete in this ruthless RNG reality then I really wish they are in the same spot next time they run VT and see their chest piece drop.
Besides, one always gets the DD chest loot for their salvage.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Last night I joined VT via queue with my TR and ended up before last boss fight. The positions were divided and we joined the fight. When a TR Dread Legion set chest piece dropped I was like ‘OMG, finally!!!’ and needed it of course just to end up in PE kicked from the party. This is ridiculous!!! While I can understand the ‘greed’ rolls on saleable loot (I do that always outside of guild only runs) it just pisses me off that this attitude has now spread to BoP class specific drops. I think we can all agree how time consuming and luck-related Dread Legion chest piece drops for you particular class are. Personally, I’ve been trying to get it since the launch of Mod2.
Apparently, it was agreed ‘no need’ beforehand. Funny that nobody mentioned it when I joined. Had I known it after joining I would have left and wished them good luck.
If somebody needs 10k RAD that badly I’d suggest running T1s or doing daily quests for it.
This is just pathetic. Had they just complained before kicking me I would have gladly given each one of them a salvageable piece for their trouble, but no…just kick and that’s all. I guess that means no more PUGs for me or helping out random parties to finish dungeons. Full guild runs or majority guild runs only from now on.
Valindra's drops are not BoP they are BoE
Greed everything unless you ask for the item and party says ok
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Yeah, yeah, keep perverting the design and intent of the game by deluding yourself you have a valid point about GRRRREEEEEDDDD!!! being more "fair" because you are saying:
"That item is for the other guy, but I got a chance to STEAL it because we're making that nub GRRRREEEEEEEDDDDD on everything!"
That is NOT what it is intended for and therefore it is an EXPLOIT.
And later on, in another run, he'll get a chance to steal YOUR drop - what is the point of that?
The RNG decides who the drop is for, NEED or GREED decides who actually gets it if there is more than one of the same class in the party.
There is nothing immature, selfish or greedy about playing the game properly, according to the rules. Quite the reverse, in fact.
If you are doing Epic dungeons only for 10k AD Salvage, maybe you should level up Leadership. Or play a different game?
:mad:
While i respect different viewpoints, i personally think this is over the top.
The problem is that what people want is a relatively equal distribution of resources, under normal circumstances. The reason greed runs are necessary is that class items do not have equal value. They never have and probably never will.
I also think this idea of ownership before something is inventory is silly. It's not yours until you win the roll. Even then PWE or Cryptic could argue it's not "yours" but rather a license to use the virtual item under their TOS, so you don't actually "own" anything like property, just a license.
I am lost at how letting everyone have a chance at something is an "exploit." It's like drawing lots, which humans have been doing since recorded history in the spirit of fairness. The intent of this system is to make things more fair, not less.
Now about this situation, kicking someone for needing on a BoP item is absolutely utterly detestable. I have six words for that group:
If the people you joined expected greed all and saw you need, even if it is BoP, then I can't blame them for kicking you truly.
i think i got a clear answer whether i should stick to legit channel runs.
fortunately, i've got really cool guildies.
really love threads like this one. but guys, too many popcorn isn't that good for my health.
@op i feel really sorry about the incident. i got my chest after 300+ runs. and actually after i stopped farming poor Vali.
the only way to avoid such stuff is to ask beforehand and leave after kids screaming 'greeeeed only!' tho it's something super unusual for me being kicked because of BoP items. ye 10k surely makes perfect sense. no.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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luxarkMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
i think i got a clear answer whether i should stick to legit channel runs.
fortunately, i've got really cool guildies.
really love threads like this one. but guys, too many popcorn isn't that good for my health.
@op i feel really sorry about the incident. i got my chest after 300+ runs. and actually after i stopped farming poor Vali.
the only way to avoid such stuff is to ask beforehand and leave after kids screaming 'greeeeed only!' tho it's something super unusual for me being kicked because of BoP items. ye 10k surely makes perfect sense. no.
If you agreed to a certain form of loot mode before entering a dungeon, then break said agreement, whose fault is it? Ignore the particular piece of loot or it's binding status for a moment - did you or did you not agree to a particular loot mode before you entered the instance? If you can't be true to your word, then what kind of teammate are you?
If you discuss things with your team, and express how much you want a piece of gear, should it drop, and they are cool with you grabbing it, then all is well. Just speak up and let your desires be known. All we want is for players to keep their word...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
If you agreed to a certain form of loot mode before entering a dungeon, then break said agreement, whose fault is it? Ignore the particular piece of loot or it's binding status for a moment - did you or did you not agree to a particular loot mode before you entered the instance? If you can't be true to your word, then what kind of teammate are you?
emm..you're trying to talk about some hypothetical situations with different loot modes, social agreements, discussing how someone needs or not an item and so on. that's nice but absolutely irrelevant to my post.
from a point of experience of hundreds of VT runs - 99% of them were pugging - i didn't witness a single time that anyone initiated kicking because of a need roll on BoP piece of dread legion set. even if there wasn't said a single word during the whole run. why? common sense, piece of humanism, adequate player behavior - name it whatever you like.
and know what? that was quite a bit time ago. a month or so after release of VT.
nowadays every week we have such kind of a topic about kicking, loot rolls restrictions etc so maybe something is really wrong with our community now? don't you think so?
i'm absolutely ok with greed runs and whenever i invite from legit to join our guild run - i'm telling my guildies about pressing shift+2 on every single loot.
but i'm not ok with twisted mentality of imposing to greed BoP item for the hunger for 10k ad. blame me for that - i'm ready. tho won't change my mind.
Im pretty sure this was created by people running instances where they dont need anything that drops to improve their char,
they just want to farm. This slowly seeped into all runs.
Partially true. You can either have high-geared players in your group,
run the dungeon fast and hand them a fair chance for loot, or you can
try to run it with half-geared people and need on epic drops.
IMO the first one will get you geared faster, but everyone is free
to pick his own teams.
But also this:
The first High Vizier Armor I rolled I rolled by greed from Syndrith.
A few runs later I got one from the chest,
AND the funds to put some nice enchants in it,
from the sale of said armor.
I would have progressed slower had I equiped it.
Why would I be allowed to need on it if my best move is to sell it?
And how can I know you wont just do the same after you need?
When i joined a dungeon and someone tells me it not speed run i immediatly leave.
+1
I love clearing entire dungeons, all mobs, not humping mountains ...
Speed runs are not fun at all IMO, yet most pug's run speed.
I dont mind. Who am I to tell everyone else how to play?
Either I adapt to the majority or I find likeminded people.
People who want need runs should just do the same.
but i'm not ok with twisted mentality of imposing to greed BoP item for the hunger for 10k ad. blame me for that - i'm ready.
I run VT need on the BoP's too.
Doesn't make me think I'm qualified to judge others for wanting it different.
Same point as before, run with likeminded people and you wont have any problems.
Its not like there is 'one truth' in value-judgements.
There is place for manny mindsets in a game like this.
Preferring one, no matter how stupid the other options seem,
should not mean there is no place in the game for those who disagree.
For those saying make loots bind on pick-up so you cant sell.
How the f am i suppose to make AD? do you think i do runs for charity?.
+1
Also I dont understand why me wanting a fair chance
at other classes loot has to be 'greedy'.
Most usable stuff I get from greed rolls that isn't worth a fortune,
goes to the guild bank and gets handed out to newer players,
or gets used on an alt of mine.
If I got a penny for every guy I helped through t1/t2 till he got his gear,
I would be a rich man. If I dont get a fair chance on expensive loot
or stuff to help my FRIENDS out, why would I help you out?
Comments
Legit is good.
Seriously, kick for needing on BoP gear? I find this disgusting.
All my runs are greed all runs, but the TR armor drops and there is a TR in party? The only thing i say is "grats!"
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Yet some of us still hate the Greed system, if players have the gut to kick someone out for an item you can only salvage for 10k, i dont know what makes them so sure that these same players wont have the gut to need on items they dont even need, but want to sell.
Sure when things like this happens it sucks, im not going to lie or try and make myself as if i know everything, OP shouldnt have gotten kicked, especially due to the fact that no one told him the rules, sometimes when you join dungeon at the end only thing you think about is to get in and kill the boss, maybe party members forgot aswell, so it no one's fault, but kicking someone for 10k?
You think The "greed" mentality is getting out of hand? just imagine what would have happened with the "Need" mentality, where everyone will be needing every epic they can.
Lol i barely come across players these days that will greed or pass on any item that is for their class, so if players dont even want to pass on their classes blue loots, why would they pass on their classes epic loots?
Kicking without a reason is an annoying jerk move. Especially after the boss died. However nothing in the OPs post says this happened without reason. He didn't list the groups loot rules, instead he talked about how he doesn't like all greed rules. Sure makes it sound like he broke the groups rules and didn't like being punished for it. We won't even know though, as we weren't there.
BOP stuff has value as its salvageable. I told people when the salvage system was added that players would start rolling on BOP stuff they can't use for the salvage value. A person would rather have 8K-10K rough diamonds from a run than none. People just scoffed and said it wouldn't be an issue. Imo the whole loot system needs an overhaul.
Absolute nonsense.
No, sir!
YOU say!
*I* do not ask.
It is incumbent on YOU as party leader to tell new arrivals that you want a GRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRRRUUUUNNNNNAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!
And I will leave you to your childish, greedy, immature and moronically selfish behaviour and exit.
The intended spirit and design of the game's code is:
NEED if you can
GREED if you can't
PASS if you do not care.
This is incontrovertible and cannot be denied.
If YOU choose to pervert, cheat and exploit the code to your own advantage by enforcing the use of the feature in a manner for which it was never intended or designed, then go and exploit someone else. Preferably in a different game. You will not be delving in the same party as ME.
If you advertise in LFG as
"21k RTRD!! (drool!) CN GRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRRRUUUUNNNNNAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!! (dribble)!"
then I will never join you. You will not have to say. The question will never arise.
But if I join a normal Dungeon Delve PuG queue it WILL be played as the designers intended, with NO exploits, including not exploiting other players by using some bizarre, self-entitled, warped and perverted logic.
That is:
NEED if you can
GREED if you can't
PASS if you do not care
THAT is how the game is intended to be played. THAT is how the Need or Greed mechanic is intended to be used. Perverters, Twisters and Exploiters have to say if they want to do it different.
But they will not be doing it with me.
:mad:
Really this is how you make a point? by insulting the other party?
It appears you lack the decency to acknowledge other players views and opinions, that alone in itself shows who the child kid is here.
You cant even respect another man's opinion and yet you are the one calling others immature?
Wake up.
Need= screw you guys this piece is mine.
Greed= aww man i wish i could need on this and screw these guys and this piece would be mine.
and lol @ you thinking it is the existing party members that have to instruct the new guy to the group. You are all about YOU and noone else. Selfish people like you ruin games, and forums with self righteous posts that only show how greedy you are.
That is an awful argument. The game is intended to be not botted as well so does that mean we can't buy any of the cheap refining stones?
Like a lot of people said, learn to use party chat learn to communicate. ASK the group when you enter what type of run it is. It isn't the way the game is coded but that's the way most of Neverwinter's community play. If you don't, you are only hurting yourself by the possible unfortunate consequences that may occur later.
"That item is for the other guy, but I got a chance to STEAL it because we're making that nub GRRRREEEEEEEDDDDD on everything!"
That is NOT what it is intended for and therefore it is an EXPLOIT.
And later on, in another run, he'll get a chance to steal YOUR drop - what is the point of that?
The RNG decides who the drop is for, NEED or GREED decides who actually gets it if there is more than one of the same class in the party.
There is nothing immature, selfish or greedy about playing the game properly, according to the rules. Quite the reverse, in fact.
If you are doing Epic dungeons only for 10k AD Salvage, maybe you should level up Leadership. Or play a different game?
:mad:
One word Ego, one of those players that thinks they are better than anyone else.
Vote kick is the enforcer of that greed.
Ideally, the NEED/GREED/PASS system is meant for Need if it's your class gear and it's something you don't already have or require, GREED if you no longer need it so everyone can get a chance roll and salvage or sell it, PASS if you don't want it at all.
This game is such a money grab that the community is pretty much on the selfish or unsavory side such that the loot system becomes NEED if you can, GREED if you can't and KICK if some one NEEDS and you can't.
If players were more mature about the system, the loot system isn't a problem at all. I organise groups without specifying group rules, unless some asks if it's a greed run, then I'll just go 'Sure' because it's what they have come to expect. But when I roll loot, I never click NEED on class gear ever if I don't really need it. I don't need to specify rules for others, I simply do what mature gamers would in fair play by myself and leave others to their own morality. I don't even bother to kick players if they consistently need drops.
Your reasoning won't change the situation. Players have been "perverting the design and intent" of games for decades. Some aspects of games (such as agro and pulling) actually started out with different intents and players changed them.
Pretending that everyone who disagrees with you is using an exploit isn't going to make you right.
Need/Greed is a terrible system. Its used in many games because its simple to implement or easily copied, and in every one of them players argue like this about it. Players make the best on it by deciding their own group rules (greed runs). If you don't like a groups rules, don't run with that group - make your own.
Don't go there. Not everyone agrees with your version of proper. And trying to roll need in a declared greed run is a selfish/jerk move. Whatever excuse you have about 10K being small change doesn't alter that fact.
This is a highly contested issue. Some players like greed runs. Others hate greed runs. As long as Neverwinter uses the Need/Greed system there will be arguments that pop up about it. That's just life. The real problem in this is that we don't have a system to divide players by loot preference. And the whole issue is made practically explosive when you have people who think everyone else in the group should play like they do, and anyone else is just wrong.
TL;DR boys, if you don't like greed runs its simple - don't go on any, organize a need run.
TL;DR boys, if you don't like need runs its simple - don't go on any, organize a greed run.
Don't expect to pop into a PuG that shares your same views on how drops should be allocated, take the time and effort to shout in zone and lfg to assemble a like-minded team.
Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication
or other information which may be considered objectionable.
A Tool used by those with power to stay in power.
I object to your objection
Fast forward to here. The game has already determined the classes that can need for an item when the item dropped. Players don't like that the game enforces need before greed, and they hate the RNG, so they come up with a Greed system where all players greed and therefore making it harder to get the gear you need. Im pretty sure this was created by people running instances where they dont need anything that drops to improve their char, they just want to farm. This slowly seeped into all runs.
The greed run mentality is basically the "I can get something out of it therefore I deserve to be able to roll despite what the game says or what anyone else needs".
Salvaging equipment is a terrible idea and should be scraped - without it, this wouldnt be a problem at all. At the very least, you should only be able to salvage your classes equipment, therefore not stealing loot from others.
Again, the RNG already determined who the loot was for. Greed demands simply want to change that so that the other classes get a second chance.
THAT SAID, I always follow the loot rules, but it should be everyone's responsibility to make sure everyone knows whats agreed upon.
You clearly have no idea what an exploit is. When exploiting you have to unfair gain an advantage in some way upon others. Please tell me how a group agreeing on rules to get the same chance to get on average the same value of loot is an exploit.
Another game I used to play a lot was league of legends. People made their own custom game mode called all random all mid (aram) where you were only allowed to play in the centre lane and not allowed to recall. The game was obviously not designed to be played that way. Yet in the same way, people formed their own groups with people who agreed to the rules. Was it an exploit too? Riot actually eventually made it into an official although more casual game mode.
Honestly I find a lot of peoples attitudes disgusting. Kicking someone needing on BoP gear is low, judging other people for playing their own way is low, ninjaing loot for yourself is low, actually punishing other players for your own gain is low. Your whole argument is pretty similar to those against homosexuality because it "isn't right" or "the way we were made". Yet those people are the true cancer in this world. Personally I'm unsure if we're even deserving as a species with so many disgusting traits.
You're so wrong.
I'm currently farming dungeons for my GF, and even tho i need GF gears i still only do Greed runs.
Even if i was in a Need run, and boss drops GF loot, i will not use that loot, i will sell it in the AH instead, do you know why? because most i have brains (Not saying you dont) and i realized that the primary reason for boss loots from T2 dungeons is to get a little bit of income.
You want to gear up? there is a reason they have chests that can sometimes give you an option to choose from 1/3 of your choice of gear.
withing the last 20 FH runs i have done, boss have never dropped my boots, but i have gotten the choice from chest atleast 13 times to get the best gears.
So sleepy i doubt what i just wrote might make any sense, but oh well.
How the f am i suppose to make AD? do you think i do runs for charity? (not that i dont help players gear up sometimes) When i joined a dungeon and someone tells me it not speed run i immediatly leave.
So if you join my party and say you dont do greed run, i will ask you to kindly GTFO my party.
If the person's intent was to sell the item, they will quickly learn that greed is the way to go.
I also agree that rolling need should make gear worthless for anything but equipping. But its only one of many fixes that are needed. Such as separating greed/need players in the first place. Whether everyone likes it or not running dungeons for loot to sell is a part of the game. And one player being able to equip an item shouldn't completely trump the whole reason the rest of the group is there.
That's exactly what I assume myself. Greed on BoE, need on BoP. Frankly, this was the first time I have ever seen 'greed' on DL chest piece, given the rarity of the drop. And no, there was no other TR on the run, so all the fuss was about 10K RAD salvage really. After all, it's not an offhand that one can equip on a companion.
‘Greed’ on BoP VT/MC gear is something totally new for me in PuG groups or any other for that matter and I’ve been here for a while. The exceptions are some offhands which can be equipped on companions but they are usually asked for as far as I know. Besides, if a party is stuck and lacks a member and one joins via queue (no other way as of now) then if they have pre-agreed loot rules they should inform the last one joining. Funny that nobody bothered to mention it before we started.
Do you really expect everyone to ask for every piece of loot? What next? Ask what powers I can and cannot use? (ok, I know it is valid sometimes
It’s both sad and funny for me as, personally, I always assume ‘greed run’ in PuGs and act accordingly but there are widely accepted exceptions as MC/VT BoP drops.
It’s not about charity, it’s about decency. If somebody really thinks that 10k RAD is more important than a full set which is not the easiest to complete in this ruthless RNG reality then I really wish they are in the same spot next time they run VT and see their chest piece drop.
Besides, one always gets the DD chest loot for their salvage.
Valindra's drops are not BoP they are BoE
Greed everything unless you ask for the item and party says ok
The dread set piece is BoP, she can drop other t1 gear that is BoE.
While i respect different viewpoints, i personally think this is over the top.
The problem is that what people want is a relatively equal distribution of resources, under normal circumstances. The reason greed runs are necessary is that class items do not have equal value. They never have and probably never will.
I also think this idea of ownership before something is inventory is silly. It's not yours until you win the roll. Even then PWE or Cryptic could argue it's not "yours" but rather a license to use the virtual item under their TOS, so you don't actually "own" anything like property, just a license.
I am lost at how letting everyone have a chance at something is an "exploit." It's like drawing lots, which humans have been doing since recorded history in the spirit of fairness. The intent of this system is to make things more fair, not less.
Now about this situation, kicking someone for needing on a BoP item is absolutely utterly detestable. I have six words for that group:
"Ser Illyn! Bring me their heads!"
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
i think i got a clear answer whether i should stick to legit channel runs.
fortunately, i've got really cool guildies.
really love threads like this one. but guys, too many popcorn isn't that good for my health.
@op i feel really sorry about the incident. i got my chest after 300+ runs. and actually after i stopped farming poor Vali.
the only way to avoid such stuff is to ask beforehand and leave after kids screaming 'greeeeed only!' tho it's something super unusual for me being kicked because of BoP items. ye 10k surely makes perfect sense. no.
Nothing against getting kicked before an encounter, because you tell your party, that you do not know that encounter. Just think about it.
You could always try explaining the encounter to them?
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
If you agreed to a certain form of loot mode before entering a dungeon, then break said agreement, whose fault is it? Ignore the particular piece of loot or it's binding status for a moment - did you or did you not agree to a particular loot mode before you entered the instance? If you can't be true to your word, then what kind of teammate are you?
If you discuss things with your team, and express how much you want a piece of gear, should it drop, and they are cool with you grabbing it, then all is well. Just speak up and let your desires be known. All we want is for players to keep their word...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
emm..you're trying to talk about some hypothetical situations with different loot modes, social agreements, discussing how someone needs or not an item and so on. that's nice but absolutely irrelevant to my post.
from a point of experience of hundreds of VT runs - 99% of them were pugging - i didn't witness a single time that anyone initiated kicking because of a need roll on BoP piece of dread legion set. even if there wasn't said a single word during the whole run. why? common sense, piece of humanism, adequate player behavior - name it whatever you like.
and know what? that was quite a bit time ago. a month or so after release of VT.
nowadays every week we have such kind of a topic about kicking, loot rolls restrictions etc so maybe something is really wrong with our community now? don't you think so?
i'm absolutely ok with greed runs and whenever i invite from legit to join our guild run - i'm telling my guildies about pressing shift+2 on every single loot.
but i'm not ok with twisted mentality of imposing to greed BoP item for the hunger for 10k ad. blame me for that - i'm ready. tho won't change my mind.
Partially true. You can either have high-geared players in your group,
run the dungeon fast and hand them a fair chance for loot, or you can
try to run it with half-geared people and need on epic drops.
IMO the first one will get you geared faster, but everyone is free
to pick his own teams.
But also this:
The first High Vizier Armor I rolled I rolled by greed from Syndrith.
A few runs later I got one from the chest,
AND the funds to put some nice enchants in it,
from the sale of said armor.
I would have progressed slower had I equiped it.
Why would I be allowed to need on it if my best move is to sell it?
And how can I know you wont just do the same after you need?
+1
I love clearing entire dungeons, all mobs, not humping mountains ...
Speed runs are not fun at all IMO, yet most pug's run speed.
I dont mind. Who am I to tell everyone else how to play?
Either I adapt to the majority or I find likeminded people.
People who want need runs should just do the same.
I run VT need on the BoP's too.
Doesn't make me think I'm qualified to judge others for wanting it different.
Same point as before, run with likeminded people and you wont have any problems.
Its not like there is 'one truth' in value-judgements.
There is place for manny mindsets in a game like this.
Preferring one, no matter how stupid the other options seem,
should not mean there is no place in the game for those who disagree.
+1
Also I dont understand why me wanting a fair chance
at other classes loot has to be 'greedy'.
Most usable stuff I get from greed rolls that isn't worth a fortune,
goes to the guild bank and gets handed out to newer players,
or gets used on an alt of mine.
If I got a penny for every guy I helped through t1/t2 till he got his gear,
I would be a rich man. If I dont get a fair chance on expensive loot
or stuff to help my FRIENDS out, why would I help you out?