Im pretty sure this was created by people running instances where they dont need anything that drops to improve their char,
they just want to farm. This slowly seeped into all runs.
Partially true. You can either have high-geared players in your group,
run the dungeon fast and hand them a fair chance for loot, or you can
try to run it with half-geared people and need on epic drops.
IMO the first one will get you geared faster, but everyone is free
to pick his own teams.
But also this:
The first High Vizier Armor I rolled I rolled by greed from Syndrith.
A few runs later I got one from the chest,
AND the funds to put some nice enchants in it,
from the sale of said armor.
I would have progressed slower had I equiped it.
Why would I be allowed to need on it if my best move is to sell it?
And how can I know you wont just do the same after you need?
When i joined a dungeon and someone tells me it not speed run i immediatly leave.
+1
I love clearing entire dungeons, all mobs, not humping mountains ...
Speed runs are not fun at all IMO, yet most pug's run speed.
I dont mind. Who am I to tell everyone else how to play?
Either I adapt to the majority or I find likeminded people.
People who want need runs should just do the same.
but i'm not ok with twisted mentality of imposing to greed BoP item for the hunger for 10k ad. blame me for that - i'm ready.
I run VT need on the BoP's too.
Doesn't make me think I'm qualified to judge others for wanting it different.
Same point as before, run with likeminded people and you wont have any problems.
Its not like there is 'one truth' in value-judgements.
There is place for manny mindsets in a game like this.
Preferring one, no matter how stupid the other options seem,
should not mean there is no place in the game for those who disagree.
For those saying make loots bind on pick-up so you cant sell.
How the f am i suppose to make AD? do you think i do runs for charity?.
+1
Also I dont understand why me wanting a fair chance
at other classes loot has to be 'greedy'.
Most usable stuff I get from greed rolls that isn't worth a fortune,
goes to the guild bank and gets handed out to newer players,
or gets used on an alt of mine.
If I got a penny for every guy I helped through t1/t2 till he got his gear,
I would be a rich man. If I dont get a fair chance on expensive loot
or stuff to help my FRIENDS out, why would I help you out?
Like i said, because i never did bossfight before.
But this matters not, nor is it point of this topic. Sorry for sidetracking.
Yes bit did they say it or you assume it?
Can't imagine anyone with half a brain would kick someone who can keep his own in a fight.
Then again half a brain is sometimes a bit much to ask from some pugs.
If I joined a random pug dungeon with a group of people that I had no prior arrangements with I will need on a Item if it is for my class, very simple. People need to stop thinking that pug dungeons are greed dungeons. If everybody join a pug dungeon and at the start of the run everybody agreed to a set rule, that is still fine. But if you want to to come halve way through a pug dungeon and then start dictating rules get lost.
If you want greed all item only runs, go to legit cause it they care about. If you want to go with greed on purple items go to LFG. If you want to state your own rules for the party make your own party and state the rules before you enter the dungeon.
PUG DUNGEONS IS NOT GREEEEEEEEED RUNSSSSSS......GET THAT IN YOUR HEAD.....How many times do people still have keep on syaing this.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited October 2014
I have had more than one dungeon run with PUGs where somebody was kicked for picking need on something like a low value ring. In none of these there was any agreement what the rules were upfront, which sometimes is not possible because of language differences, somebody picked need and without any further discussion they get kicked right away. I have tried a few times to confront people about kicking that person, I don't normally get a reasonable response back, they just unthinkingly have accepted greed as an unwritten rule that everyone has consented to.
I would not be surprised if there have been new players who rage quit because they got kicked after a long hard dungeon crawl because of this stupid rule.
The reason people get kicked is that there is a lot of legit and LFG people that join pug dungeons, and they want their type of loot rule to apply to any type of dungeon they join. IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. The stupid mentality of the community is that does this is the cause of the problem. They like x rule, and now they are FORCING it down players throats cause that is the way they want it. Instead of stepping back a bit and looking at the bigger picture. What this chain of stupidity is creating, is that all the new players that is joining the neverwinter community will have to same type of mind set.
In simple the old genre is setting a very bad example for the new genre and it is down right disgusting.
You like x rules for looting stick to your channel or group, stop forcing this stupid GREED rules on everyone.
So...for places like Valindra's Tower & Malabog's Castle where the armour/weapon drops are all BoP and class specific then of course it should be ok to need on them if you are planning to use them, tho still needing just so u can salvage it is pretty lame.
However in a normal greed dungeon run then I say it's still polite and best to ask before needing, however if people then are unreasonable and say "No you can't" then I would say it's best to greed on it instead otherwise you risk such unreasonable people kicking you.
I also disagree with the mentality of people insisting that everyone rolls greed on an item even when someone actually needs the item just cos the item is worth a bit and they want to sell it. Many people do dungeons to gear up and I have always considered that more important then someone wanting a chance at an item just to get even more money/AD.
Just a short example to all those ppl ranting about greedy ppl rolling on items they dont need.
A friend asked me to help a friend gear up. We put together a group of 5 ppl. 3 gearing up, 2 with decent gear.
We told the friend of our pal, that she should greed on purple gear, she did. Two runs in she said, that she would leave the group, bc. she had massive lags and could not help the group. We told her to hang in there, we would do the work anyway.
She did not have the 'authentic challanging' dungeon expirience of running on lvl. She did get her full T2 set in 1 1/2 hours getting carried by two well geared exp. players. She never ran T 2 before, bc. her gear was to bad. Now she has the full set. No high AD items dropped, I got ~20k AD from salvagable items.
I think she and 90% of the new players prefer this to playing T1 for a month and getting kicked from T2 PUGs for bad gear.
I would have got more than 20k RAD from epic LOL/SOT or CN runs in the time. Do I feel bad for greeding on the salvagable items, no. Does she feel cheated for me greeding on items I dont need, no.
Get down from your high horses. I play to have fun, not for you. If you dont like my way of playing, dont group with me. Same goes for me. I state/ ask at the beginning of the run for the rules. If I dont like it, I leave. If you dont like it, leave. There are 3 problems atm. First, bad communication and second ppl who think, that their opinion is the only valid one, ranting about ppl who dare to express another opinion. Last, but not least 'players' who ninja loot, kick others to get the loot in skrmishes etc. Sadly the community is to big and the GMs to ... (overworked?)... to handle the last ploblem.
I have had more than one dungeon run with PUGs where somebody was kicked for picking need on something like a low value ring. In none of these there was any agreement what the rules were upfront, which sometimes is not possible because of language differences, somebody picked need and without any further discussion they get kicked right away. I have tried a few times to confront people about kicking that person, I don't normally get a reasonable response back, they just unthinkingly have accepted greed as an unwritten rule that everyone has consented to.
I would not be surprised if there have been new players who rage quit because they got kicked after a long hard dungeon crawl because of this stupid rule.
I haven't seen people get kicked recently but when running skirmishes lately, I've noticed that the pugs I run with are needing on enchantments. This happened all of a sudden as I used to greed everything and I would get the vast majority of the enchants and green equipment because everyone else passed. I can't imagine that many players are farming enchantments and green equipment to feed to artifacts (I am) and I understood why they'd be doing it for double enchantment weekend, but it's been happening since then as well.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
I haven't seen people get kicked recently but when running skirmishes lately, I've noticed that the pugs I run with are needing on enchantments. This happened all of a sudden as I used to greed everything and I would get the vast majority of the enchants and green equipment because everyone else passed. I can't imagine that many players are farming enchantments and green equipment to feed to artifacts (I am) and I understood why they'd be doing it for double enchantment weekend, but it's been happening since then as well.
Unless decided upon beforehand I have never ever seen anyone intentionally greed on an enchantment during a skirmish. It's a complete need mentality when it comes to enchantments and you'd be stupid to be greeding on them anyway.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
If I joined a random pug dungeon with a group of people that I had no prior arrangements with I will need on a Item if it is for my class, very simple. People need to stop thinking that pug dungeons are greed dungeons. If everybody join a pug dungeon and at the start of the run everybody agreed to a set rule, that is still fine. But if you want to to come halve way through a pug dungeon and then start dictating rules get lost.
If you want greed all item only runs, go to legit cause it they care about. If you want to go with greed on purple items go to LFG. If you want to state your own rules for the party make your own party and state the rules before you enter the dungeon.
PUG DUNGEONS IS NOT GREEEEEEEEED RUNSSSSSS......GET THAT IN YOUR HEAD.....How many times do people still have keep on syaing this.
Here is the thing... you aren't anymore right than them. You want it to be a regular run, they want it to be a greed run. You have the right to need on stuff, sure. And they have the right to initiate a vote kick on you for doing so. Its kinda a jerk move, but no more so than needing if everyone else is choosing greed. If enough of your group wants it to be a greed run then they will kick you for needing. Your desires aren't more important than the rest of the group. This is why players should determine loot rules before they get started.
Really though, the ball is in Cryptic's hands. Players making their own rules is a bandaid. Cyrptic needs to adjust the dungeon loot mechanics. Some people here have claimed to know Cryptic's intentions with the current need/greed system. If they are right Cryptic could change things to reinforce their intent. They could also go the other way. With some adjustments players could check the loot type they want upon joining the queue. Or heck, just let the players vote on it upon entering or something. Someone initiates a greed all loot vote. If majority wants greed, then every item is greed only. Otherwise its normal loot rules.
Halgarth's Legacy-NWS-DSTGFZHFR
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
ok... so if we ever run together. My rules are greed everything, kill everything.
Often times when fighting i am not going to think "Do i need to need roll or greed roll this?" I'm just going to hit shift+2. I won't get bent out of shape about enchants or anything like that.
Partially this is a part of my "battlemage" style. I like fighting 20 things at once. It's the only way t2 runs are even fun anymore. I do it when i solo too, so i don't care about showing off or my dps or whatever, it's just how i like to play.
So if you don't like that, that's fine! There are plenty of wonderful people to play with who feel otherwise.
If you have a run and you have different rules, that's fine too!. Make sure i understand the rules so i can roll appropriately.
I have always been a proponent of the greed all system. I think when you have to pick between greed or need you just make more errors.
Now i heard "need if you need something", but with my old guild and almost everyone i run with, if you get a BoE item you are going to sell it and buy enchants and RP. So even if someone doesn't have that item, they are going to sell it anyway. Most of us hold out for the BoP items.
Honestly if you are going to equip it on the spot, I don't mind nearly as much. If NEED items were BOP then the issue would be solved too.
But I am also very tired of this discussion. People want different systems. There are flaws to all of them. And yes people get kicked for stupid reasons, and there are people who don't get one fundamental point.
Your network and your reputation are the two most valuable things in neverwinter.
There is no item in this game where it is worth it to unfairly kick someone so that you can win it. NOTHING is that valuable.
And yes, it sucks to be kicked, and it does all happen, but those people who are doing the kicking end up on a lot of ignore lists and you will be running with your friends all day long, and they will desperately be trying to pug just so they can ninja someone else. Who do you think is happier and makes more AD in the long run?
That's all i have to say on this topic. I've been discussing it over a year, so i'm tired of it. Best to the rest of the thread,
They should just scrub the greed function all together and be done with it, then there will be no problem, if the item is meant for your class it goes to you, and if not you pass. This mentality of I WANT THIS< I GREED THAT so you can get item for AD is sicking to the point that it all came down to the point where it is now.
The comes down to the people farming AD, they want something as compensation for their time they are running dungeons, it is not fun anymore as it should be, OHHH he needed lets us KICK so we can get ad, and the person that needed get nothing. But what they fail to understand is maybe that person joined the game for fun, now he gets kicked, so it is not fun anymore and goes to something else. To the people who kicked him, thinks it is ok now to kick, because they get a changes for AD, I SAY BSSSSS.
The comes down to the people farming AD, they want something as compensation for their time they are running dungeons, it is not fun anymore as it should be, OHHH he needed lets us KICK so we can get ad, and the person that needed get nothing. But what they fail to understand is maybe that person joined the game for fun, now he gets kicked, so it is not fun anymore and goes to something else. To the people who kicked him, thinks it is ok now to kick, because they get a changes for AD, I SAY BSSSSS.
The way you are looking at this is totally one-sided. Just try to see the other point of view. Is it so surprising that people farming AD want compensation for their time running dungeons. You expect them to just run the dungeons for no reason. Helping you get your gear and they get nothing? Who is being greedy now?
The seemingly obvious solution would be to divide those using need and greed players into separate queues. But I don't really know if that's viable. Unfortunately I can think of several possible issues with it off the top of my head. There is no solution everyone will be happy with. But I think the ability for a team to vote on a specific loot style would be a step in the right direction.
I think the lesson to be learned here is to communicate.
Communication is key. ASK! This is not a singleplayer game, this is an MMO. Running dungeons is not a 1-man affair, it is a 5-man affair. Cryptic's gear progression system is set up to where most players would rather prefer greed runs than need runs for good reason. It doesn't hurt to communicate with your party.
The way you are looking at this is totally one-sided. Just try to see the other point of view. Is it so surprising that people farming AD want compensation for their time running dungeons. You expect them to just run the dungeons for no reason. Helping you get your gear and they get nothing? Who is being greedy now?
Why do I need help to gear up????????????????? Most of my characters is 20K plus I don't need your help with anything. I play this game for fun, not for greedy people. If I need gear, we will get a group together and then set the loot rules, to get gear it is in the chest most of the time. Do us all a favor and read the rest of the post not just your narrow minded few of some of the post you see.
I stated that in most cases people agree to loot roles before they enter the dungeon, but pug dungeons is something else.
Mod can you please just close this threat, as it is causing flaming and people opinions differs. nobody is going to to agree on this, the community divide on this, and to respond to people this cause they refuse to see the other side is not worth it. There is anyways nothing constructive about such debate anyways.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2014
This whole "but it is BoP" argument means nothing.
That armor is 10K AD salvage. Just because it can't be sold on the Auction House doesn't mean it doesn't have value to the rest of the party.
Unless you make your desires clear from the beginning or get permission before you need in some way it will be looked at as plain and simple greediness. People can and do need on epic items just to salvage them.
And bottom line is that pointing the finger at the rest of the team is really in no way an adequate defense. They might not have informed you of the rules they wished to use but it takes two to tango. If you choose not to inform them of your desires before you need then you ALWAYS run the risk of getting kicked if the rest of the party wishes for greed to be used.
You won't get sympathy for that in real life so I don't see the desire for it from a game as reasonable too. Communication is a two way street. If you end up before a judge and pull the argument of 'they didn't tell me' the response you would get is 'did you ask or make your own desires clear?'
Truth of the matter there's no fault here. Some people might kick at the first sign of a need without laying out the rules. Should they? No. But neither should you assume they won't get upset when they see AD withheld from them via a need vote.
As such ask. Communicate.
If you don't you are just as much at fault regardless of the bind style on the item.
Why do I need help to gear up????????????????? Most of my characters is 20K plus I don't need your help with anything. I play this game for fun, not for greedy people. If I need gear, we will get a group together and then set the loot rules, to get gear it is in the chest most of the time. Do us all a favor and read the rest of the post not just your narrow minded few of some of the post you see.
I'm sorry. I really meant people who need in general, not you specifically. I should have worded it better. You had referred to new players (who would be inexperienced). Also depending on the class players who haven't completed certain sets may be at a disadvantage compared to players who have run a particular dungeon dozens of times already.
I stated that in most cases people agree to loot roles before they enter the dungeon, but pug dungeons is something else.
Which is why I've suggested the party have the option to vote on loot type after a pug starts. Right now pretty much everyone assumes pugs are greed. Those who don't feel the same way get upset. Arguments break out both in-game and here in the forums. If players could initiate a vote to set the loot type (and the game had mechanics to enforce it), then at least everyone it would eliminate misunderstandings. Party majority rule is not a perfect solution, but I think it would be better than what we have now.
There is anyways nothing constructive about such debate anyways.
I disagree. Every time the issue is brought up it increases its visibility. Making it slightly more likely for the people running the game to decide to make changes that help solve the issue.
Its sad to see that the forum mods are just as selfish as the rest of the player base, and people wonder why.... You should be trying to set a good example not trying to force everyone to play by your player made rule book. The real difference between people who are Greed advocates try to force everyone else to play their way, eg. if you don't like it leave the party or you need to ask the loot rules that is pathetic BS for que groups. Private groups are free to play how ever they like but if some one joins from the que or the party forms using the que you can't force people to play how you want them to based on player created rules. The argument that if they don't like it they can leave is detrimental to the que as most of you have not used it you probably don't realize but sometimes it can take over an hour to get into an instance and after all that waiting what is the response "If you don't play like us, Leave", so apparently you have no regard for the time they spent waiting to get into the group how selfish is that?
The real issues is that the non-greed proponents let people play how ever they like if you want to need you can and if you want to greed or pass you can they could care less their just here to enjoy playing the game theirs no hidden agenda if someone ninjas some loot well who really cares they just might avoid that person in the future. The greed proponents want everyone to play like they do and they better ask before hand or reek unjustified kicking, because they feel that their system is better/more fair but that is a matter of opinion and its not more valuable then anyone else opinion. Let people play the way they like to play and stop trying to force people to play by user created rules.
Additionally what i think is hilarious is that earlier in the game history anyone could roll on any item, some of you may remember this. Then the community complained that it wasn't fair, granted it was before DD chests, so the devs changed the system to be class biased based on requests of the community, you reap what you sew. People caused the change to transpire because it didn't meet their play style and now that they have their gear their play style has changed and again they want the game to change to match, unfortunately you can't always have it your way this isn't Burger King.
TL;DR Stop trying to force everyone to play like you and allow people to play as they desire what ever roll method that may be.
Not just surprising, completely mystifying. Compensation? Is this your full-time day job? Running dungeons is for fun. Isn't it?
If you are not having fun and only doing it for some sort of gain, such as stealing other people's drops, you have lost the plot. Maybe it is time you took a break, or moved on to another game?
I mean... WHAT?
In what way do they get "nothing"?
They have the fun of running the dungeon, they have the fun of experiencing co-operative party play,they have the fun of being part of a group working towards a common goal, they have the fun of experiencing a helpful, friendly, supportive and nurturing environment, they have the fun of getting new and better gear, more enchants, AD from Rhix and/or Lord Nevember and so on.
MMORPGs are mostly based on a gear progression design. That is how you motivate people to play. Have an endgoal, have a reward. Contrary to your beliefs, "fun" isn't solely based on running pointless errands. There has to be a reward for most people. They want to see tangible progression (as reinforced by the Expectancy Theory by Victor Voom). Chasing that carrot on the stick is part of the fun.
Some people are roleplayers and run dungeon for the sake of running it, most MMORPG players don't and that is why greed runs are the most popular.
Not just surprising, completely mystifying. Compensation? Is this your full-time day job? Running dungeons is for fun. Isn't it?
No. Running them was fun the first few times. Now people run them for AD. So they can do other fun stuff. The alternative is they not run them at all. And suddenly pugs have an hour or more long wait for their queue to pop. Personally I prefer foundries over most of these dungeons. I run those for fun. Dungeons I run for the reward, because foundry content currently has none.
Need should be changed to player bound, unsalvageable, no value at vendor. problem solved.
If the person's intent was to sell the item, they will quickly learn that greed is the way to go.
Sounds great.
Can't think of a better way, for all ppl to be sure the items is really NEEDed and not just greed(in bigger form), although i'm sure even then, you'll find ppl that get so low, to need it, just to deny the others a chance - sadly it's that bad some players mentality these days.......
At least this will remove all GREEDy ninjas
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2014
I love the pot calling the kettle black.
Here's the be all, end all: communicate.
People are running dungeons for money and their own progression as much as you. Selfishness is defined by putting your needs in front of all others which is what is being done when you need on gear.
It's fine to do if you commuinicate and your party members agree. If they do not agree to those terms it is you running the risk of being kicked whether it is discussed beforehand or not.
Don't put your needs before the needs of others. We're all playing the same game. If you do without asking permission you are doomed to have this situation repeat itself.
But alas since those in favor of need seem unable to look at their own actions and realize they are the ones pushing their views on everybody else rather than the other way around there's nowhere left for this to go. Sorry, call abuse all you want if you step back and look at what you are saying you'll realize you are being far more unreasonable.
If you want to avoid being kicked communicate. That's the end of this discussion.
Comments
Partially true. You can either have high-geared players in your group,
run the dungeon fast and hand them a fair chance for loot, or you can
try to run it with half-geared people and need on epic drops.
IMO the first one will get you geared faster, but everyone is free
to pick his own teams.
But also this:
The first High Vizier Armor I rolled I rolled by greed from Syndrith.
A few runs later I got one from the chest,
AND the funds to put some nice enchants in it,
from the sale of said armor.
I would have progressed slower had I equiped it.
Why would I be allowed to need on it if my best move is to sell it?
And how can I know you wont just do the same after you need?
+1
I love clearing entire dungeons, all mobs, not humping mountains ...
Speed runs are not fun at all IMO, yet most pug's run speed.
I dont mind. Who am I to tell everyone else how to play?
Either I adapt to the majority or I find likeminded people.
People who want need runs should just do the same.
I run VT need on the BoP's too.
Doesn't make me think I'm qualified to judge others for wanting it different.
Same point as before, run with likeminded people and you wont have any problems.
Its not like there is 'one truth' in value-judgements.
There is place for manny mindsets in a game like this.
Preferring one, no matter how stupid the other options seem,
should not mean there is no place in the game for those who disagree.
+1
Also I dont understand why me wanting a fair chance
at other classes loot has to be 'greedy'.
Most usable stuff I get from greed rolls that isn't worth a fortune,
goes to the guild bank and gets handed out to newer players,
or gets used on an alt of mine.
If I got a penny for every guy I helped through t1/t2 till he got his gear,
I would be a rich man. If I dont get a fair chance on expensive loot
or stuff to help my FRIENDS out, why would I help you out?
I got kicked.
Sorry to hear it.
They told you why?
Or they just kicked you out of the blue?
Like i said, because i never did bossfight before.
But this matters not, nor is it point of this topic. Sorry for sidetracking.
Yes bit did they say it or you assume it?
Can't imagine anyone with half a brain would kick someone who can keep his own in a fight.
Then again half a brain is sometimes a bit much to ask from some pugs.
If you want greed all item only runs, go to legit cause it they care about. If you want to go with greed on purple items go to LFG. If you want to state your own rules for the party make your own party and state the rules before you enter the dungeon.
PUG DUNGEONS IS NOT GREEEEEEEEED RUNSSSSSS......GET THAT IN YOUR HEAD.....How many times do people still have keep on syaing this.
I would not be surprised if there have been new players who rage quit because they got kicked after a long hard dungeon crawl because of this stupid rule.
In simple the old genre is setting a very bad example for the new genre and it is down right disgusting.
You like x rules for looting stick to your channel or group, stop forcing this stupid GREED rules on everyone.
However in a normal greed dungeon run then I say it's still polite and best to ask before needing, however if people then are unreasonable and say "No you can't" then I would say it's best to greed on it instead otherwise you risk such unreasonable people kicking you.
I also disagree with the mentality of people insisting that everyone rolls greed on an item even when someone actually needs the item just cos the item is worth a bit and they want to sell it. Many people do dungeons to gear up and I have always considered that more important then someone wanting a chance at an item just to get even more money/AD.
A friend asked me to help a friend gear up. We put together a group of 5 ppl. 3 gearing up, 2 with decent gear.
We told the friend of our pal, that she should greed on purple gear, she did. Two runs in she said, that she would leave the group, bc. she had massive lags and could not help the group. We told her to hang in there, we would do the work anyway.
She did not have the 'authentic challanging' dungeon expirience of running on lvl. She did get her full T2 set in 1 1/2 hours getting carried by two well geared exp. players. She never ran T 2 before, bc. her gear was to bad. Now she has the full set. No high AD items dropped, I got ~20k AD from salvagable items.
I think she and 90% of the new players prefer this to playing T1 for a month and getting kicked from T2 PUGs for bad gear.
I would have got more than 20k RAD from epic LOL/SOT or CN runs in the time. Do I feel bad for greeding on the salvagable items, no. Does she feel cheated for me greeding on items I dont need, no.
Get down from your high horses. I play to have fun, not for you. If you dont like my way of playing, dont group with me. Same goes for me. I state/ ask at the beginning of the run for the rules. If I dont like it, I leave. If you dont like it, leave. There are 3 problems atm. First, bad communication and second ppl who think, that their opinion is the only valid one, ranting about ppl who dare to express another opinion. Last, but not least 'players' who ninja loot, kick others to get the loot in skrmishes etc. Sadly the community is to big and the GMs to ... (overworked?)... to handle the last ploblem.
I haven't seen people get kicked recently but when running skirmishes lately, I've noticed that the pugs I run with are needing on enchantments. This happened all of a sudden as I used to greed everything and I would get the vast majority of the enchants and green equipment because everyone else passed. I can't imagine that many players are farming enchantments and green equipment to feed to artifacts (I am) and I understood why they'd be doing it for double enchantment weekend, but it's been happening since then as well.
Unless decided upon beforehand I have never ever seen anyone intentionally greed on an enchantment during a skirmish. It's a complete need mentality when it comes to enchantments and you'd be stupid to be greeding on them anyway.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Need Before Greed -> Need only if you equip it on the spot.
I only do this with guildies.
Epic Greed -> Greed only on epic gear (=salvagables).
My favorite and most popular with the lfg/pug crowd
Greed All -> Greed on everything including greens and enchants.
The only ones using this as far as I know is the majority of legit runs.
Since most groups run Epic Greed,
most groups allow you to need on enchants.
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's
That's BS man. Again, why i don't pug.
My run, i probably assume people are experinced if they don't tell me.
If it's first time, say so, I'll explain to you, and then we try 2-3 times to get the feel for it.
People who kick you because you are new are just ********. You shouldn't play with them.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Here is the thing... you aren't anymore right than them. You want it to be a regular run, they want it to be a greed run. You have the right to need on stuff, sure. And they have the right to initiate a vote kick on you for doing so. Its kinda a jerk move, but no more so than needing if everyone else is choosing greed. If enough of your group wants it to be a greed run then they will kick you for needing. Your desires aren't more important than the rest of the group. This is why players should determine loot rules before they get started.
Really though, the ball is in Cryptic's hands. Players making their own rules is a bandaid. Cyrptic needs to adjust the dungeon loot mechanics. Some people here have claimed to know Cryptic's intentions with the current need/greed system. If they are right Cryptic could change things to reinforce their intent. They could also go the other way. With some adjustments players could check the loot type they want upon joining the queue. Or heck, just let the players vote on it upon entering or something. Someone initiates a greed all loot vote. If majority wants greed, then every item is greed only. Otherwise its normal loot rules.
Often times when fighting i am not going to think "Do i need to need roll or greed roll this?" I'm just going to hit shift+2. I won't get bent out of shape about enchants or anything like that.
Partially this is a part of my "battlemage" style. I like fighting 20 things at once. It's the only way t2 runs are even fun anymore. I do it when i solo too, so i don't care about showing off or my dps or whatever, it's just how i like to play.
So if you don't like that, that's fine! There are plenty of wonderful people to play with who feel otherwise.
If you have a run and you have different rules, that's fine too!. Make sure i understand the rules so i can roll appropriately.
I have always been a proponent of the greed all system. I think when you have to pick between greed or need you just make more errors.
Now i heard "need if you need something", but with my old guild and almost everyone i run with, if you get a BoE item you are going to sell it and buy enchants and RP. So even if someone doesn't have that item, they are going to sell it anyway. Most of us hold out for the BoP items.
Honestly if you are going to equip it on the spot, I don't mind nearly as much. If NEED items were BOP then the issue would be solved too.
But I am also very tired of this discussion. People want different systems. There are flaws to all of them. And yes people get kicked for stupid reasons, and there are people who don't get one fundamental point.
Your network and your reputation are the two most valuable things in neverwinter.
There is no item in this game where it is worth it to unfairly kick someone so that you can win it. NOTHING is that valuable.
And yes, it sucks to be kicked, and it does all happen, but those people who are doing the kicking end up on a lot of ignore lists and you will be running with your friends all day long, and they will desperately be trying to pug just so they can ninja someone else. Who do you think is happier and makes more AD in the long run?
That's all i have to say on this topic. I've been discussing it over a year, so i'm tired of it. Best to the rest of the thread,
Chem
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
The comes down to the people farming AD, they want something as compensation for their time they are running dungeons, it is not fun anymore as it should be, OHHH he needed lets us KICK so we can get ad, and the person that needed get nothing. But what they fail to understand is maybe that person joined the game for fun, now he gets kicked, so it is not fun anymore and goes to something else. To the people who kicked him, thinks it is ok now to kick, because they get a changes for AD, I SAY BSSSSS.
The way you are looking at this is totally one-sided. Just try to see the other point of view. Is it so surprising that people farming AD want compensation for their time running dungeons. You expect them to just run the dungeons for no reason. Helping you get your gear and they get nothing? Who is being greedy now?
The seemingly obvious solution would be to divide those using need and greed players into separate queues. But I don't really know if that's viable. Unfortunately I can think of several possible issues with it off the top of my head. There is no solution everyone will be happy with. But I think the ability for a team to vote on a specific loot style would be a step in the right direction.
Communication is key. ASK! This is not a singleplayer game, this is an MMO. Running dungeons is not a 1-man affair, it is a 5-man affair. Cryptic's gear progression system is set up to where most players would rather prefer greed runs than need runs for good reason. It doesn't hurt to communicate with your party.
That armor is 10K AD salvage. Just because it can't be sold on the Auction House doesn't mean it doesn't have value to the rest of the party.
Unless you make your desires clear from the beginning or get permission before you need in some way it will be looked at as plain and simple greediness. People can and do need on epic items just to salvage them.
And bottom line is that pointing the finger at the rest of the team is really in no way an adequate defense. They might not have informed you of the rules they wished to use but it takes two to tango. If you choose not to inform them of your desires before you need then you ALWAYS run the risk of getting kicked if the rest of the party wishes for greed to be used.
You won't get sympathy for that in real life so I don't see the desire for it from a game as reasonable too. Communication is a two way street. If you end up before a judge and pull the argument of 'they didn't tell me' the response you would get is 'did you ask or make your own desires clear?'
Truth of the matter there's no fault here. Some people might kick at the first sign of a need without laying out the rules. Should they? No. But neither should you assume they won't get upset when they see AD withheld from them via a need vote.
As such ask. Communicate.
If you don't you are just as much at fault regardless of the bind style on the item.
I'm sorry. I really meant people who need in general, not you specifically. I should have worded it better. You had referred to new players (who would be inexperienced). Also depending on the class players who haven't completed certain sets may be at a disadvantage compared to players who have run a particular dungeon dozens of times already.
Which is why I've suggested the party have the option to vote on loot type after a pug starts. Right now pretty much everyone assumes pugs are greed. Those who don't feel the same way get upset. Arguments break out both in-game and here in the forums. If players could initiate a vote to set the loot type (and the game had mechanics to enforce it), then at least everyone it would eliminate misunderstandings. Party majority rule is not a perfect solution, but I think it would be better than what we have now.
I disagree. Every time the issue is brought up it increases its visibility. Making it slightly more likely for the people running the game to decide to make changes that help solve the issue.
The real issues is that the non-greed proponents let people play how ever they like if you want to need you can and if you want to greed or pass you can they could care less their just here to enjoy playing the game theirs no hidden agenda if someone ninjas some loot well who really cares they just might avoid that person in the future. The greed proponents want everyone to play like they do and they better ask before hand or reek unjustified kicking, because they feel that their system is better/more fair but that is a matter of opinion and its not more valuable then anyone else opinion. Let people play the way they like to play and stop trying to force people to play by user created rules.
Additionally what i think is hilarious is that earlier in the game history anyone could roll on any item, some of you may remember this. Then the community complained that it wasn't fair, granted it was before DD chests, so the devs changed the system to be class biased based on requests of the community, you reap what you sew. People caused the change to transpire because it didn't meet their play style and now that they have their gear their play style has changed and again they want the game to change to match, unfortunately you can't always have it your way this isn't Burger King.
TL;DR Stop trying to force everyone to play like you and allow people to play as they desire what ever roll method that may be.
MMORPGs are mostly based on a gear progression design. That is how you motivate people to play. Have an endgoal, have a reward. Contrary to your beliefs, "fun" isn't solely based on running pointless errands. There has to be a reward for most people. They want to see tangible progression (as reinforced by the Expectancy Theory by Victor Voom). Chasing that carrot on the stick is part of the fun.
Some people are roleplayers and run dungeon for the sake of running it, most MMORPG players don't and that is why greed runs are the most popular.
There is, you seem to be unwilling to see it though.
Is no worse than forcing unwilling need runs.
No. Running them was fun the first few times. Now people run them for AD. So they can do other fun stuff. The alternative is they not run them at all. And suddenly pugs have an hour or more long wait for their queue to pop. Personally I prefer foundries over most of these dungeons. I run those for fun. Dungeons I run for the reward, because foundry content currently has none.
Sounds great.
Can't think of a better way, for all ppl to be sure the items is really NEEDed and not just greed(in bigger form), although i'm sure even then, you'll find ppl that get so low, to need it, just to deny the others a chance - sadly it's that bad some players mentality these days.......
At least this will remove all GREEDy ninjas
Here's the be all, end all: communicate.
People are running dungeons for money and their own progression as much as you. Selfishness is defined by putting your needs in front of all others which is what is being done when you need on gear.
It's fine to do if you commuinicate and your party members agree. If they do not agree to those terms it is you running the risk of being kicked whether it is discussed beforehand or not.
Don't put your needs before the needs of others. We're all playing the same game. If you do without asking permission you are doomed to have this situation repeat itself.
But alas since those in favor of need seem unable to look at their own actions and realize they are the ones pushing their views on everybody else rather than the other way around there's nowhere left for this to go. Sorry, call abuse all you want if you step back and look at what you are saying you'll realize you are being far more unreasonable.
If you want to avoid being kicked communicate. That's the end of this discussion.