The ‘greed’ mentality is getting out of hand

niteingale · October 2014

Last night I joined VT via queue with my TR and ended up before last boss fight. The positions were divided and we joined the fight. When a TR Dread Legion set chest piece dropped I was like ‘OMG, finally!!!’ and needed it of course just to end up in PE kicked from the party. This is ridiculous!!! While I can understand the ‘greed’ rolls on saleable loot (I do that always outside of guild only runs) it just pisses me off that this attitude has now spread to BoP class specific drops. I think we can all agree how time consuming and luck-related Dread Legion chest piece drops for you particular class are. Personally, I’ve been trying to get it since the launch of Mod2.
Apparently, it was agreed ‘no need’ beforehand. Funny that nobody mentioned it when I joined. Had I known it after joining I would have left and wished them good luck.
If somebody needs 10k RAD that badly I’d suggest running T1s or doing daily quests for it.
This is just pathetic. Had they just complained before kicking me I would have gladly given each one of them a salvageable piece for their trouble, but no…just kick and that’s all. I guess that means no more PUGs for me or helping out random parties to finish dungeons. Full guild runs or majority guild runs only from now on.

frishter · October 2014

That does sound really sucky and against the spirit of the game. I'm very for greed on BoE items unless it's something everyone can need on and plan to all do so. However for BoP I expect you to need on it unless you already have it, otherwise it's a wasted opportunity. Kicking you for that kind of makes them selfish jerks. One thing to note is that a t1 boe piece can also drop which can get your hopes up and roll incorrectly if you don't read what the drop is.

rashylewizz · October 2014

Looks like you were unfortunate enough to be put into an existing party with a different mindset than yours by the queue system.

Apparently, you did have a guild. I highly recommend you always just running with your guild anyway. Don't ever PUG. If you find yourself having to PUG, you probably need a guild that isn't dead.

frishter · October 2014

rashylewizz wrote: »

Looks like you were unfortunate enough to be put into an existing party with a different mindset than yours by the queue system.

Apparently, you did have a guild. I highly recommend you always just running with your guild anyway. Don't ever PUG. If you find yourself having to PUG, you probably need a guild that isn't dead.

I don't pug that much and they can be sucky, but they can be sort of ok too. I've done it if I've needed to gear up or do shores of tuern/lostmauth a couple of times some were annoying or didn't go quite so well but otherwise it got the job done. lfg probably yields better results. I do have my own guild, but I generally don't want to be a hassle and force them to do stuff that's not really worth doing.

I've never been kicked to my memory, though I've done more guild runs anyway and the times I do I'm fine with greeding it all basically. It would pmo if someone ninja kicked to get rare loot though.

niteingale · October 2014

I do have a guild and almost always run with them. This was just a chance queue while my guildies were finishing up their daily dose of dragon slaying. I've pugged more in the past and never had a situation like that. I even remember a great ToS run with a particular guild (I was the only random player there) when I was a **** myself and was still trying to get my first swash chest. The guild leader taught me the details of the dungeon and offered anything that would drop just to help me gear up - I did get the chest piece from the DD chest then. Those were the 'good old times' and thanks to that I have never said 'no' if somebody asked for legitimate help. But I guess the general community has changed too much, if it can still be called a community. I do know there are good and helpful players out there, but a general impression of a random group is getting worse all the time. Oh well..my fury has already passed but it has left a bad taste in my mouth...

johnperq · October 2014

Sorry that happened to you.
Most VT pug groups I did where need as you like.

Best if you enter an existing group you ask for loot rules,
even if it should actually be the ones informing you.
Safeguards you against a lot misunderstandings.

Its about bloody time they make the VT boss drops BoE though.
Even if you dont get lucky eventually you can get one from the ah that way.

hefisdo · October 2014

Sorry but this is totally unrelated to the greed agreement.

lirithiel · October 2014

hefisdo wrote: »

Sorry but this is totally unrelated to the greed agreement.

How so? I belong to a guild that employs all-greed loot rules UNLESS it's a BoP item that's an upgrade to the person who needs it. If we have to pug one or two they usually agree to this. I remember only once when a player kicked up a fuss and left before we got going.

I feel for the OP, I have not seen the armor piece drop off bosses or the chest in about 30 VT runs now. Still trying and mostly pugs these days...

However, I always ask about loot rules beforehand and you should have too

nameexpired · October 2014

The problem is that the design of the game allows these kind of actions.
And nothing is being done about this.
You are not the first to have this problem, but to me it looks like the game development company does not think this issue as important as some other exploits.
And kicking after the final boss is dead is an exploit. It's simple.
But we all are at the mercy of the game managers/developers, so my the gods in the future have mercy on us.

asterotg · October 2014

When we did VT to get the DC offhand for the ioun stones, we told the random DC BEFORE we invited him, that he should greed on the drop. Otherwise we allways informed the random at the begin of the run.

On the other hand, when I farmed the GWF offhand, I asked, if I could NEED on the sword knot. Before I got an answer, the roll expired, I greeded and the other GWF needed.

IMO, they should not have kicked him, but hey I got kicked by a PuG bc. I took some time to write a advice for the bossfight after a whipe before I resetted. What do I know?

lirithiel · October 2014

nameexpired wrote: »

The problem is that the design of the game allows these kind of actions.
And nothing is being done about this.
You are not the first to have this problem, but to me it looks like the game development company does not think this issue as important as some other exploits.
And kicking after the final boss is dead is an exploit. It's simple.
But we all are at the mercy of the game managers/developers, so my the gods in the future have mercy on us.

The problem is what if, despite agreeing to greed on an item, the player decides to need for whatever reason, how else would he be dealt with if he cannot be kicked for his actions? But then again people are all too happy to agree to the kick...

xd108x · October 2014

My advice when joining a group is assume it's a greed run and if ur not sure then ask. Personally I agree with you that if something drops and it is something that you would equip as its an item you are after or an upgrade then you should need it....BUT...ask first! This is just more polite and will let others know that ur not just one of the selfish ninja looters. They may say no, which I would disagree with but I think most people are reasonable about this, especially when its BoP class item and the only thing they can do with it is salvage.

For me loot rules in a group are simple, DONT need on something you dont actually need i.e. wont use, and if you do need something just ask

This includes random blue/green item drops...people needing on these are still doing it for greed reasons and should greed along with the rest of the group. Things like enchants/runestones/shards/crafting items are fine to need however as everyone is able to and everyone uses them.

group5e · October 2014

If you are running VT, the rule is simple... need on BoP items if you need them. Greed on everything else. Any PUG group that does otherwise should be keel-hauled, quartered and fed to the sharks. In a nutshell... they are bad players as they don't understand the concept of BoP.

I usually clear up this nonsense before the final VT fight. If they want to greed on everything, I leave (no questions or explanations given). I have NO PROBLEMS stranding a group with this selfish attitude on BoP items. I'm not going to waste my time (and pots) with no chance of winning that 1% RNG item that is specifically for my class if I can't roll need on it if I need it.

vinceent1 · October 2014

xd108x wrote: »

My advice when joining a group is assume it's a greed run and if ur not sure then ask. Personally I agree with you that if something drops and it is something that you would equip as its an item you are after or an upgrade then you should need it....BUT...ask first! This is just more polite and will let others know that ur not just one of the selfish ninja looters. They may say no, which I would disagree with but I think most people are reasonable about this, especially when its BoP class item and the only thing they can do with it is salvage.

For me loot rules in a group are simple, DONT need on something you dont actually need i.e. wont use, and if you do need something just ask This includes random blue/green item drops...people needing on these are still doing it for greed reasons and should greed along with the rest of the group. Things like enchants/runestones/shards/crafting items are fine to need however as everyone is able to and everyone uses them.

"but I think most people are reasonable about this"

i am not so sure, i was at spellplague and from the start i was writing how badly i need that helm for my class. and again through run twice. when we kill final boss helm was loot from him. i write to the chat please let me and press need. i was kicked anyway ....

johnperq · October 2014

vinceent1 wrote: »

"but I think most people are reasonable about this"

i am not so sure, i was at spellplague and from the start i was writing how badly i need that helm for my class. and again through run twice. when we kill final boss helm was loot from him. i write to the chat please let me and press need. i was kicked anyway ....

If the party agreed on a greed run and you pressed need,
you disserved that kick.

Depending on your class that helm could be quite valuable.
I know I wouldn't run a need run on most T2's.
I would be perfectly happy to run the dungeon a few more times
with you till you got your drop from the chest though.

VT is different as the drop binds on pickup.
It has no value beyond equiping and salvage.
Thats why most people run VT as a need run.

reiwulf · October 2014

Malabog's castle is also BoP equip?

johnperq · October 2014

reiwulf wrote: »

Malabog's castle is also BoP equip?

Epic equipment yes.
Crafting resources (you need for the mainhand) no.

chemboy613 · October 2014

niteingale wrote: »

Last night I joined VT via queue with my TR and ended up before last boss fight. The positions were divided and we joined the fight. When a TR Dread Legion set chest piece dropped I was like ‘OMG, finally!!!’ and needed it of course just to end up in PE kicked from the party. This is ridiculous!!! While I can understand the ‘greed’ rolls on saleable loot (I do that always outside of guild only runs) it just pisses me off that this attitude has now spread to BoP class specific drops. I think we can all agree how time consuming and luck-related Dread Legion chest piece drops for you particular class are. Personally, I’ve been trying to get it since the launch of Mod2.
Apparently, it was agreed ‘no need’ beforehand. Funny that nobody mentioned it when I joined. Had I known it after joining I would have left and wished them good luck.
If somebody needs 10k RAD that badly I’d suggest running T1s or doing daily quests for it.
This is just pathetic. Had they just complained before kicking me I would have gladly given each one of them a salvageable piece for their trouble, but no…just kick and that’s all. I guess that means no more PUGs for me or helping out random parties to finish dungeons. Full guild runs or majority guild runs only from now on.

Honestly man, I think greed all for everything except BoP items. The fact this happened to you is BS. I'm sorry about it.

sexwax45 · October 2014

This is yet another consequence of the Greed mentality infecting the community and ruining the player base. All these player created rules that people are just supposed to know as you should greed this or need that, all these players probably know is that in LFG they always see people say GREEEED RUN so they just assume that all players should always roll greed on all epic items they probably didn't even know the item was BoP. It's no wonder why these things happen because their is no newsletter sent out with all the player created rules that every one assumes everyone knows and should always follow. Issues like these will just continue to happen because of what the Greed Mentality has done to the community.

chemboy613 · October 2014

group5e wrote: »

If you are running VT, the rule is simple... need on BoP items if you need them. Greed on everything else. Any PUG group that does otherwise should be keel-hauled, quartered and fed to the sharks. In a nutshell... they are bad players as they don't understand the concept of BoP.

I usually clear up this nonsense before the final VT fight. If they want to greed on everything, I leave (no questions or explanations given). I have NO PROBLEMS stranding a group with this selfish attitude on BoP items. I'm not going to waste my time (and pots) with no chance of winning that 1% RNG item that is specifically for my class if I can't roll need on it if I need it.

exactly/10 char

chemboy613 · October 2014

kk - look guys, It should be greed all so we all have equal chance at equal loot. It's the only equitable solution without splitting items - which i did for months but the bookwork got maddening

The exception is BoP items. Always need on BoP items because it's just stupid RAD to everyone else.

People who are too stupid to understand this or too greedy to let you get your BOP item when it's 10k AD should be ignored, hung, and quartered.

No one forces you to run with idiots... and yeah it sucks when unfair things happen, it really does, but no system is perfect. just don't have to run with those dumbasses again.

hefisdo · October 2014

lirithiel wrote: »

How so?

The greed agreement only applies to BoE items that are class specific.

If someone kicks a guy that needed a BoP item he's not one of us; he's just an ***hole. What I suspect is that there was another TR in the group and they kicked the OP because he wanted that, but that doesn't change anything.

group5e · October 2014

hefisdo wrote: »

What I suspect is that there was another TR in the group and they kicked the OP because he wanted that...

This could very well be the answer.

tradeactbd · October 2014

niteingale wrote: »

Last night I joined VT via queue with my TR and ended up before last boss fight. The positions were divided and we joined the fight. When a TR Dread Legion set chest piece dropped I was like ‘OMG, finally!!!’ and needed it of course just to end up in PE kicked from the party. This is ridiculous!!! While I can understand the ‘greed’ rolls on saleable loot (I do that always outside of guild only runs) it just pisses me off that this attitude has now spread to BoP class specific drops. I think we can all agree how time consuming and luck-related Dread Legion chest piece drops for you particular class are. Personally, I’ve been trying to get it since the launch of Mod2.
Apparently, it was agreed ‘no need’ beforehand. Funny that nobody mentioned it when I joined. Had I known it after joining I would have left and wished them good luck.
If somebody needs 10k RAD that badly I’d suggest running T1s or doing daily quests for it.
This is just pathetic. Had they just complained before kicking me I would have gladly given each one of them a salvageable piece for their trouble, but no…just kick and that’s all. I guess that means no more PUGs for me or helping out random parties to finish dungeons. Full guild runs or majority guild runs only from now on.

Some people are just too stupid to play and don't deserve to be allowed to initiate a vote kick. Perhaps they need to give a test to players before they allow the option to be enabled.

Anyone that would kick someone over a BoP item just shouldn't be playing this game. Same thing happened to me in an MC run when after 50 runs my offhand finally dropped. I really wonder sometimes what is wrong with some people.

tradeactbd · October 2014

lirithiel wrote: »

How so? I belong to a guild that employs all-greed loot rules UNLESS it's a BoP item that's an upgrade to the person who needs it. If we have to pug one or two they usually agree to this. I remember only once when a player kicked up a fuss and left before we got going.

I feel for the OP, I have not seen the armor piece drop off bosses or the chest in about 30 VT runs now. Still trying and mostly pugs these days...

However, I always ask about loot rules beforehand and you should have too

Sorry but "greed rules" do not apply to BoP items. You can't sell or trade them. They are effectively worthless to anyone except for the class that it dropped for. If you can't understand the distinction, then you shouldn't be playing the game.

group5e · October 2014

tradeactbd wrote: »

Some people are just too stupid to play and don't deserve to be allowed to initiate a vote kick. Perhaps they need to give a test to players before they allow the option to be enabled.

Anyone that would kick someone over a BoP item just shouldn't be playing this game. Same thing happened to me in an MC run when after 50 runs my offhand finally dropped. I really wonder sometimes what is wrong with some people.

I got a list of these people I keep (27 kickers or ninjas on it so far)... been thinking of posting it on private site... people could look up if they are reputable or not ... :P

Seriously though, I hear ya. Its complete nonsense.

lirithiel · October 2014

tradeactbd wrote: »

Sorry but "greed rules" do not apply to BoP items. You can't sell or trade them. They are effectively worthless to anyone except for the class that it dropped for. If you can't understand the distinction, then you shouldn't be playing the game.

Sigh read my post...I even added it in caps "UNLESS it's BoP..."

group5e · October 2014

johnperq wrote: »

Depending on your class that helm could be quite valuable.
I know I wouldn't run a need run on most T2's....

I know my SW bracers took over 20 runs and in the end, it was a drop my guildies let me have. Guess I'm just lucky that I have great guild members as opposed to people who would never run with me unless it was a 100% profit runs all the time. :P

I get what you are saying... but it sounds, well... it kind of sounds like that kind of attitude is a big problem with this game. I realize you wouldn't want to do it all the time, but once in a while isn't going to kill you...

Just sayin'

str8slayer · October 2014

So you carried some pugs through VT and got kicked at the end for needing the BOP chest? Odds are they were nubs and didn't understand that the armor was BOP (guy who won it probably thought he was rich, haha NOT).

refracted0dawn · October 2014

niteingale wrote: »

When a TR Dread Legion set chest piece dropped I was like ‘OMG, finally!!!’ and needed it of course just to end up in PE kicked from the party.

Did you get the item, or were you kicked before the roll was decided?

I will not do GRREEEEEEEDDD RRRUUUUNNNNNNNSSSSSAAAAAHHHHH!!!! under any circumstances, for reasons I have stated elsewhere.

The main reason is that I am a mature adult and I will not exploit or pervert the intent and design of the game code in any way at all, and will certainly never do anything which is entirely and utterly against the spirit, ethos and raison d'être of AD&D.

But, one time, I got a DC piece and got kicked, but I had the item in inventory anyway. One guy PM'd me to apologise and said he voted "NO", but also said that it was a GRREEEEEEEDDD RRRUUUUNNNNNNNAHHHHH!!!!

I said that maybe they should have told me that when I joined the dungeon.

He PM'd me again later on saying they had to give up as they could not kill the final boss.

Hmmm.... maybe they should not have kicked their DC for winning a DC item that the game intended for the DC and the Need or Greed roll is ONLY to decide which DC gets it if there is more than one DC in the party...

ambisinisterr · October 2014

As others said, ask!

Asking is key. If the people you joined expected greed all and saw you need, even if it is BoP, then I can't blame them for kicking you truly.

The sad truth is that unless you ask or say you want a specific piece of gear beforehand they will assume foul play. Do you have any idea how many people I have done runs with needing on every item they can because they "need AD?"

Mature people are not the average players in any MMO. Spirit of D&D? Bologna. I don't run a charity event. I am not going to run dungeons and consistently get nothing because some screwball thinks he needs AD more than me.

As such you get one chance when needing on epic gear. One. If you continue to need on epic gear when we specifically ask you not to then you will get kicked.

It's a tad bit of a shame people don't give that one chance but at the same time it's normally completely avoidable if you discuss things beforehand. It's FAR more likely you are stealing the 10K AD salvage than needing a BoP item (other than the offhand) to equip it. They can't read minds. All they see is a person needing on 10K AD.

And the spirit of D&D says nothing about assuming people aren't being greedy.
That's called naivety.

The ‘greed’ mentality is getting out of hand

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