Again, if ZEN was traded from AD, that AD simply changed hands. It's still there, it didn't disappear and it wasn't even "taxed" as happens in the AH.
If I purchased ten milion ZEN right now, and spent all that ZEN on fashion, the inflation would not change by a single bit. Maybe it would even increase (temporarily), because I pushed in a lot of AD that I had stored/not using and it was effectively out of circulation.
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luxarkMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Again, if ZEN was traded from AD, that AD simply changed hands. It's still there, it didn't disappear and it wasn't even "taxed" as happens in the AH.
If I purchased ten milion ZEN right now, and spent all that ZEN on fashion, the inflation would not change by a single bit.
Can you please stop hanging yourself up on that one tought? It is not like it is the only thing i wrote. To be exact: I haven't even written it like you are telling me.
And just for clarification: You buy 1000 Zen. This makes 1000 Zen more which is circling in the "economy". You spend it immediately for something in the shop. That makes 1000 less in the economy. You HAVE to count it since you could have also traded it for AD.
You got similar principles in retail-market: You sell an employee something directly from the storage and it counts as a sale you have to pay taxes for, even if it never reached the actual marked.
It used to be taxed before it hit the 500 wall.
The Zen you sold at 400 and I had to buy at 405, just at the upper limit there is no tax. Which might be a mistake, as it creates a cheap speculation window.
And just for clarification: You buy 1000 Zen. This makes 1000 Zen more which is circling in the "economy". You spend it immediately for something in the shop. That makes 1000 less in the economy. You HAVE to count it since you could have also traded it for AD.
1) You buy 1000 ZEN (with AD): nothing really changes (as per above statement) someone lost 1000ZEN, you lost 500k AD, but nothing was pulled out of the total amount of ZEN or AD.
2) You buy 1000 ZEN (with RL money): this "creates" 1000 ZEN more in the economy. You buy a nice ZEN hat for 1000 ZEN. 1000 ZEN is "destroyed". Nothing really changes (except for a new hat you can show on your character).
3) You buy 1000 ZEN (with RL money): this "creates" 1000 ZEN more in the economy. You trade it for 500k AD. You now have 500k AD that another player had. Another player gains 1000 ZEN. He eventually trades it again for AD (return to step 1). At the end of the chain, someone else buys a ZEN hat for 1000 ZEN. 1000 ZEN is "destroyed". Again, nothing changes (as per point 1)
4) You buy 1000 ZEN (with RL money): this "creates" 1000 ZEN more in the economy. Also, you notice the devs have decided to remove the ZAX limit! You trade it for twentyfivethousandzillions AD. You now have twentyfivethousandzillions AD that another player had. Another player gains 1000 ZEN. He eventually trades it again for AD (return to step 1). At the end of the chain, someone else buys a ZEN hat for 1000 zen. 1000 zen is "destroyed". Again, see point 1: twentyfivethousandzillions AD changed hands, but not a single one was removed.
5) You drop an Artifact of Recombobulation: this "creates" a BoE item. You trade it for 500k AD on the AH. You now have 450k AD that another player had. 50k AD is permanently lost in the process. Another player gains an Artifact of Recombobulation. He eventually trades it for 500k AD (50k more is lost in the process as long as this continues). Eventually someone binds that Artifact of Recombobulation. This "destroys" a BoE item (except for a new artifact you can show on your character). 50k^n AD was definitely lost in the process.
So, the AD/ZEN limit has no importance in the grand scheme. Unless you are planning on buying items on the AD store (and there is currently no reason to do so, as you find much better and/or much cheaper items on the AH), inflation stays the same.
It used to be taxed before it hit the 500 wall.
The Zen you sold at 400 and I had to buy at 405, just at the upper limit there is no tax. Which might be a mistake, as it creates a cheap speculation window.
This is not "tax". It's simply where demand and offer meets. You could sell ZEN at 400 and buy back at 400 provided someone was willing to sell at that price.
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luxarkMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
So, the AD/ZEN limit has no importance in the grand scheme. Unless you are planning on buying items on the AD store (and there is currently no reason to do so, as you find much better and/or much cheaper items on the AH), inflation stays the same.
I asked you to read all i wrote earlier.
There is quite a lot of stuff in the game at the moment you have to pay AD for. Campaigns for example. Or upgrading companions.
You do not need to tell me, that this stuff is "useless" or anything like that. Most players of computergames do not care about maximum effectiveness. They actually do pay those AD to upgrade a companion. Or buying useless stuff from the AD-Shop. And those AD vanish.
And you can bet, that a grant fraction of the playerbase consists of such people.
This is not "tax". It's simply where demand and offer meets. You could sell ZEN at 400 and buy back at 400 provided someone was willing to sell at that price.
as 5 AD per Z vanished I consider this a tax, you, of course, are free to have a different opinion.
while the ZAX rate was, e.g. 400/405 you could not sell for 400, even if you'd sell your AD for 400 the system would adjust the AD to 405, taking 405 from the player who buys, removing 5 AD from the game. Try selling today 1 Z for 400 AD and see what you get (500 AD)
There always was a 5 AD gap vetween selling/buying, except when facing the limit.
I asked you to read all i wrote earlier.
There is quite a lot of stuff in the game at the moment you have to pay AD for. Campaigns for example. Or upgrading companions.
You do not need to tell me, that this stuff is "useless" or anything like that. Most players of computergames do not care about maximum effectiveness. They actually do pay those AD to upgrade a companion. Or buying useless stuff from the AD-Shop. And those AD vanish.
And you can bet, that a grant fraction of the playerbase consists of such people.
A character usually generates enough AD by passive tasks (invocation, leadership) to cover the "must haves", like artifact upgrade materials and one-time purchases in the campaigns, especially if it doesn't need dungeon unlocks (that are the costliest, and rather unrewarding).
As for the average player, it's hard to tell how much he uses the "extra" items from AD shops (or companion upgrades). Unless we have some data (that Cryptic will never disclose), both yours and mine are just opinions.
as 5 AD per Z vanished I consider this a tax, you, of course, are free to have a different opinion.
while the ZAX rate was, e.g. 400/405 you could not sell for 400, even if you'd sell your AD for 400 the system would adjust the AD to 405, taking 405 from the player who buys, removing 5 AD from the game. Try selling today 1 Z for 400 AD and see what you get (500 AD)
There always was a 5 AD gap vetween selling/buying, except when facing the limit.
The AD is NEVER removed in the ZAX. If you sell 100Z for 400AD you get 40k AD. If you buy 100Z for 400AD you spend 40k AD.
If you try to sell zen for less than the current highest offer, there is a safeguard mechanic that will sell the ZEN to the best offer (i.e. if you wanted to sell ZEN for 50AD and there was an offer to buy ZEN for 400 AD, you would sell the ZEN for 400 AD. If there was no better offer than 50 AD, you would sell for 50 AD. It always gives to you every single AD removed from the other player.
Also, the underlined part means that you actually get MORE AD, not less, how can that be a tax?
The AD is NEVER removed in the ZAX. If you sell 100Z for 400AD you get 40k AD. If you buy 100Z for 400AD you spend 40k AD.
[...]
Also, the underlined part means that you actually get MORE AD, not less, how can that be a tax?
Sorry, either I wrote it wrong or you got it wrong.
The Z you sold for 400AD I had to buy for 405AD ... there never was an overlap if you compared the "buy offers" with the "sell offers".
If I only offered 400 AD I would not get the AD, as none were on the window for the "ZEN OFFERS" window. The lowest Z offer had been your offer +5 AD.
But I might just as well have a wrong impression there ... maybe we will see it one day where the ADX is below 495 again!
But if you feel that no AD were taken out of the system that might be OK as well.
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luxarkMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
As for the average player, it's hard to tell how much he uses the "extra" items from AD shops (or companion upgrades). Unless we have some data (that Cryptic will never disclose), both yours and mine are just opinions.
Of course they are just opinions and might be wrong, but years of MMO-experience give you a pretty solid idea on how the average player ... well, plays. And what he spends his money on.
I can tell you for sure, that only very few people actually think that much about stuff like we are doing right now.
Also i can assure you, that you do NOT generate enough AD through passive tasks as a somewhat new player. I haven't played this game for long yet and i got only three characters, two of them at 60. And I often struggle to get enough AD for campaign unlocks on my youngest character withhout spending much on anything else.
This is mostly because iam not playing every day for hours to do all those dailys and dungeonruns i would actually need to do in order to advance smoothly.
Yet i do not see myself as someone who does not think about what he is doing much. I actually do try to maximize effectiveness of everything I do as much as iam able. Now think about this: Most people do not.
When did you start over with a fresh account withhout help of anyone? Months of even a year ago? You might wanna try it out for yourself on a fresh account. It is not as easy as you might think anymore.
Sorry, either I wrote it wrong or you got it wrong.
The Z you sold for 400AD I had to buy for 405AD ... there never was an overlap if you compared the "buy offers" with the "sell offers".
If I only offered 400 AD I would not get the AD, as none were on the window for the "ZEN OFFERS" window. The lowest Z offer had been your offer +5 AD.
These are simply offer/demand dynamics. You can offer even now to buy ZEN at 50 AD each, but if no one is willing to sell, your offer will just stay there forever. Don't mistake the lack of an offer at a certain price for some kind of hidden tax.
There was no overlap simply because if there were offers to buy zen at price X and offers to sell zen at the same price X, they would be automatically matched and fulfilled, until there is either no more zen for sale at price X or no more buy offers at the same price.
It's pretty much like buying games at Gamestop. You buy a new game for $50. The next day you decide you don't like it and want to trade it back and you walk out with $10. It's not because there is some kind of $40 tax, simply they aren't interested to buy the game back for more than that.
Also i can assure you, that you do NOT generate enough AD through passive tasks as a somewhat new player. I haven't played this game for long yet and i got only three characters, two of them at 60. And I often struggle to get enough AD for campaign unlocks on my youngest character withhout spending much on anything else.
That's weird. If you just log twice a day, you get 1665 AD per character by invoking (we assume a fresh lv60). Leadership twice a day at low levels (it takes a couple days to get to lv 10) nets 2200 AD per day (3x Battle Undead twice a day). A couple days later you unlock Mining Claims task (lv 13), about 1400 AD a day (2x Mining Claim twice a day, we assume that you unlocked only the free 5 task slots).
That's 5200 AD a day, and you didn't even start "playing", it's passive income. It takes some 250k to unlock all non-dungeon campaign stuff, plus some 150k more if you plan on doing all the dungeons (but you can really pass on both Sharandar and Dread Ring ones). It takes a month and a half to unlock everything non-dungeon related (but considering it's mostly time-gated, you will take far more time and have more AD).
But if you do a single daily every day, say 3x skirmishes, and we assume you are terribly unlucky and drop nothing at all (and that's hardly possible) and your timing is so bad you never do it when Skirmish bonus is on, you get an extra 3000 AD, for a total of 8200 AD a day, and you unlock *everything* campaign related in 48 days. If you consider you need at least 14 days to unlock IwD and then a minimum of 35 days to complete it (350 rep, 10 a day), it matches perfectly (i don't know how much it takes to unlock the whole ToD campaign, but I assume even more than IwD).
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luxarkMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited October 2014
It would actually take 76 days of "passive" stuff (and i doubt a lot of "normal" players actually use Leadership) for a single character if i take your numbers just for the campaigns, assuming you do not spend anything on anything else.
400k/5200=76
On a single character and you havent bought anything "fun" yet. Only campaign progress. At the same time you could finish most campaigns earlier if you have enough AD at all times. I think you see where the "struggle" point comes from. Now make this two characters (since you start out with only two at maximum) and you might see it even more.
And you still have not bought anything "fun".
It would actually take 76 days of "passive" stuff (and i doubt a lot of "normal" players actually use Leadership) for a single character if i take your numbers just for the campaigns, assuming you do not spend anything on anything else.
400k/5200=76
Well "normal" players also do dungeon runs and play the game actively, they don't rely on passive income only, i was doing calculations on the "zero playtime" characters, but obviously average player will actively play the game and gain way more AD. A single PK run takes less than 15 minutes and it's a T2 dungeon, so you will always get a purple item to salvage (4-5k AD per run, plus other stuff).
The more AD we add to the global economy, the less the AD is worth. It's a basic principle that, after the ZAX backlog hit 15 milion ZEN, and everything on the AH was priced 2 or 3 times the current price, should already be public knowledge.
This thread is about the limit for refining rough AD. For most players, most of that goes into AD Sinks anyway. AD Sinks do not add anything to the global economy - only trading on the ZAX and AH does that. But this thread is not about the ZAX or the AH.
During the hyper-inflation period, I did not buy anything on the AH at a silly price. It's always a Buyer's Market, as long as you are patient and sensible. The prices came down, but not because everyone was paying ludicrous prices; most people did not have giga-amounts of AD (except the exploiters); prices dropped largely because a lot of people who tried to take advantage of the situation lost their posting fee and had to re-post at a lower price. I watched the prices drop until they got to a level I was happy with. Perfect Vorpals dropped from 20 million to less than 6 million, for example. That's another AD Sink: people who are too greedy lose their posting fee. But only patient players can make sure that they DO lose their posting fee - by not buying.
There is quite a lot of stuff in the game at the moment you have to pay AD for. Campaigns for example. Or upgrading companions.
Exactly!
It's 750k AD to open the fifth Vault in our Guild Bank, which is full already.
It's 600k and 750k (IIRC) to upgrade a single Green Companion.
It's 25k for a Mark of Potency and 100k for a Greater Mark of Potency. Sometimes, the AH is cheaper, but often not.
It's something like 50k AD as a raw material for some crafting tasks, IIRC.
It takes thousands of AD to unlock Dread Vault and Sharandar Boons.
I have no idea how much AD you need for IWD and ToD.
And ALL of those are AD Sinks.
I want 2 million AD to get 4000 Zen for a Shadow Wolf. I do not "need" it, but I want it. That will take well over a month if I do not buy Marks, Professional staff etc. But I will probably lose patience and get out my credit card. That's another reason they will not raise the refining limit on RAD. And it's probably good and reasonable business practice for them to take that attitude. You eventually get enough AD to unlock the level 60 boons, it's just all the other sinks that are a problem.
Maybe two different types of AD? 24k per day for "global" use, and anything above that is "Personal Use AD", maybe a different colour in a different currency slot, and can only be spent on official AD Sinks? I have never bought Zen to trade for AD so I can pour it down an AD Sink and I never will. But I pour AD I refine down them all the time, and do not hurt the economy at all. I also have bought a lot of Zen, but I spend it on Character Slots, Retraining Tokens, Shared Bank Slots, Greater Bags of Holding, Dye Packs, Account-Wide Mounts etc - stuff that the Zen Market has that I cannot get cheaper elsewhere.
But imagine how many AD I need for 15 characters! Only 12 are level 60, but I "Main" a DO, an AC, an MI, a WK, an HR Pathfinder and a GWF Swordmaster.
I will be "maining" the others soon for the AD, as I have several PvP and Dungeon Delve quests saved up, but they have to have a decent gear score before I can show my face in there, as I have little skill with anything that is not DC or TR. Although, my 10k HR does surprisingly well.
Both my TRs have *cheap* Battlefield Skulker gear from the AH, and have three pieces of their Profound sets from PvP. They just need the actual armour now. It's the Seals of Triumph that take the time at one per day. Then I can salvage their Skulker's gear.
But at the moment I have zero Zen and about 50k AD, and only a little unrefined.
It takes some 250k to unlock all non-dungeon campaign stuff, plus some 150k more if you plan on doing all the dungeons (but you can really pass on both Sharandar and Dread Ring ones). It takes a month and a half to unlock everything non-dungeon related (but considering it's mostly time-gated, you will take far more time and have more AD).
You won't be unlocking anything in Dread Ring or Sharandar with AD unless you also have the crescents, fey sparks, seeds, Vanguard Scripts, Thayan Scrolls etc etc. Some of these currencies you can get from Celestial Coin Campaign Boxes, but you will never unlock the boons from Invoking, Leadership and Skirmishes; you have to actively run through those campaigns many times.
~
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Except the times that Invoking gives you 335 AD or no AD at all.
335AD is the third time before your invoking "day" resets. 0AD is every time after that before your rewards reset and you get coins and 1000AD. If you log in to invoke twice per day, you would get 1665AD as stated. 2000AD is the maximum available to level 60s, doled out in diminishing amounts.
Only the blessings and potions are randomized. The AD is a fixed reward, scaled to your level.
It's 750k AD to open the fifth Vault in our Guild Bank, which is full already.
It's 600k and 750k (IIRC) to upgrade a single Green Companion.
It's 25k for a Mark of Potency and 100k for a Greater Mark of Potency. Sometimes, the AH is cheaper, but often not.
It's something like 50k AD as a raw material for some crafting tasks, IIRC.
It takes thousands of AD to unlock Dread Vault and Sharandar Boons.
I have no idea how much AD you need for IWD and ToD.
Most of this is either unneeded to a single player (the 750k for bank are per guild not per person, thus potentially 5k per person -you must have a huge guild, mine is over 100 players and we still have plenty of space-), purchased on the AH cheaper than in AD store (especially blue Marks of Potency that can get as low as 15k sometimes, but I get them regularly for 22-23k), or can be found far better versions of in AH (for every green companion you might want there is a better version that costs less and is available on the AH. Want a healer? Lillend is 480k on the AH, Angel of Protection even cheaper. Need a tank? Galeb Dhur is among the best, 990k).
Your other point, about needing extra stuff to advance in the campaign, was unrelated as well, we were talking about how much time do you need to get enough AD, of course you need other stuff, but that was obvious and out of scope :P
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luxarkMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Well "normal" players also do dungeon runs and play the game actively, they don't rely on passive income only, i was doing calculations on the "zero playtime" characters, but obviously average player will actively play the game and gain way more AD. A single PK run takes less than 15 minutes and it's a T2 dungeon, so you will always get a purple item to salvage (4-5k AD per run, plus other stuff).
And how do you know how much the average player plays?
Also, like someone already said: you actually also have to use time to run those campaign quests in order to advance. This reduces the time you actually have for running dungeons and other stuff that give AD. I think you know where this is going, if you have only limited time per day for computer games.
Yes, this is actually a casual-problem. But guess who is the main-playerbase of nearly every MMO.
the 750k for bank are per guild not per person, thus potentially 5k per person -you must have a huge guild
But 750/5 = 150! Are you sure you do not mean 250k per member?
FIVE K AD?
You have 150 Guild Members? My Guild has FOUR active members.
FOUR.
The fifth original member could not continue playing due to poor connection speeds and members six and seven are pretty inactive now. Unlike many Guilds, we rarely play together anymore as they hate PvP and are ex-Pats living abroad. But we have a Vault each:
Vault 1
was opened by the first of us to start playing (our Captain, Mentor and God of Neverwinter), but he sells and Auctions everything, so he does not need it anymore. It is full of potions for new characters and for leveling Alchemy; mostly put there by me.
Vault 2
is the guy who cannot play anymore, so it is also full of Node Kits, injury kits, scrolls and potions for new characters, plus some dye kits and other stuff. Again, mostly put there by me.
Vault 3
is shared by members 3 and 4 as they are married and do not want to spend any more AD on Guild Vaults.
Vault 4
was was opened by me and has gear, food items and other stuff and is used for transferring gear between characters when my 48 Shared Bank Vault Slots are full. The cost for this Vault, IIRC, was 600k AD, which worked out cheaper per slot than 16 slots in a Personal Bank and a lot cheaper than 8 Slots in a Shared Bank Vault.
In any case, the purchase has to be made by a single player - we knew of no legitimate way of pooling AD from several players into one, so we took turns to open the Vaults. The more you open, the more expensive they become. The others are not interested in blowing that much AD on another one, but I need the space for transferring stuff between characters. I am still killing Pinatas from the Summer Festival!
you must have a huge guild, mine is over 100 players and we still have plenty of space-)
Really? It is such a shame that with your 100+ members, you do not feel that you can trust each other enough to be able to use the Guild Vault in a sensible, convenient manner. I am so glad that in the world of NW, there are three people I KNOW I can trust - we are old friends from Skyrim and we can put Epic Gear and Rank 8 Enchants in there and know they will still be there 6 months later.
We would NEVER let someone we do not know have access to our Guild Vaults. We all have Full Access as Guild Leaders.
for every green companion you might want there is a better version that costs less and is available on the AH.
Want a healer? Lillend is 480k on the AH
Angel of Protection even cheaper.
Need a tank? Galeb Dhur is among the best, 990k)
You are missing the point a bit. Those are NOT AD sinks.
So it would be YOU, not me, who would pump AD into the player economy.
It would be YOU, not me, who would fuel inflation.
It would be YOU, not me, who would devalue AD.
And people also need to understand that the way THEY play is not THE way to play.
I have the following Companions available to any new Character I make:
[COLOR="#000000"]
[B][COLOR="#EE82EE"]Epic Sylph Knights of the Feywild[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#0000FF"]Rare Erinyes of Belial Scourge Warlock's Booster Pack[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#008000"]Uncommon Storm Rider some promotion or other
Uncommon Ioun Stone of Radiance some Arc Promotion[/COLOR]
Common whatever in-game Companion quest[/COLOR][/B]
I also have a free War Dog, two Rare Priestesses of Sune and two Rare Skeletal Dogs from somewhere. And some characters have Fire Sprites (+2% AP Gain), Moonshea Druids, Green Slime and other companions which are in the Stable most of the time. One has an active Ioun Stone of Allure as well as the Stone of Radiance.
But I choose Companions and upgrade them based on the Active Bonus they give in PvE, not what they can do when Summoned or how cheap they are on the AH. I WOULD like some Ioun Stones of Might, though.
Of course, the only Companion worth summoning in PvE is the Ioun Stone for the enhancement.
But, as I stated throughout, I need more AD for my characters to pour into AD Sinks.
So, forget the AD Tax system I suggested in Post #12. I think a better system would be:
NO RAD Refinement Limit.
Up to 24 RAD per day are refined into Silvery Astral Diamonds, usable for Global AD Purchases, as they are now.
Any RAD over 24k per day are refined into Azure Astral Diamonds, usable ONLY for AD Sinks.
Silvery Astral Diamonds can ALSO be used on AD Sinks, if desired
Azure Astral Diamonds can NEVER be used on the AH, the ZAX or any other non-AD Sink.
Player still has choice to refine into Azure, or wait until the clock re-sets to refine into Silvery.
So anything over 24k per day can ONLY be used for upgrading Bound Companions, opening Guild Bank Vaults, buying Refining Stones and Marks from the Wondrous Bazaar, advancing Dread Ring, Sharandar etc.
And Azure AD will be NO USE AT ALL to Bot Farmers.
Azure AD will NEVER BE ABLE TO INFLATE THE ECONOMY.
I now think that this would be much better than a Tax on Refined RAD.
The only thing needed then would be a way of pooling all the Azure AD onto a single character, like we can by putting up very low offers for Zen, then cancelling and withdrawing the AD with another character.
And, of course, the AD Sinks will have to be coded to accept Azure AD as a currency, in addition to Silvery AD.
And how do you know how much the average player plays?
Well, if you don't play the game much you won't be really power-hungry as to want to complete everything... that's quite obvious though. Most casual players that play just for lulz and fun an average of 15 minutes a day probably won't even look at the campaigns, or will just pick the latest one, or the one that looks better. If you know you can't or don't want to dedicate more than a couple hours a week to the game, you won't complete everything. But that's true for every MMO out there.
It is probably true that casual players are the main playerbase, but they probably have the minor impact on inflation, as they create and spend few AD. Those people will never reach the 24k AD limit, and it is definitely not an issue to them (I play up to 3 hours a day and get no more than 15-20k rAD per character). Thus casual players are not concerned by the OP proposal.
The people who create the most AD are those with 10 characters on account, log every day 3x for invoking and do leadership professions 3x (with all slots unlocked). A single one of such players creates more AD in a week than 100 casual players that play 2-3 hours a week.
But 750/5 = 150! Are you sure you do not mean 250k per member?
FIVE K AD?
You have 150 Guild Members? My Guild has FOUR active members.
FOUR.
[cut]
Really? It is such a shame that with your 100+ members, you do not feel that you can trust each other enough to be able to use the Guild Vault in a sensible, convenient manner. I am so glad that in the world of NW, there are three people I KNOW I can trust - we are old friends from Skyrim and we can put Epic Gear and Rank 8 Enchants in there and know they will still be there 6 months later.
We would NEVER let someone we do not know have access to our Guild Vaults. We all have Full Access as Guild Leaders.
You missed the point. If you *need* 7 vault tabs for 4 players, you are using the guild vault as a personal storage, and that is not the intended use. Of course you *can* do it, but it is not an expense every player will face, as opposed to campaign and artifact upgrade costs.
It has nothing to do with trust, it's about storing things you know someone might find useful. If an item lays around for more than a week, it means it's not useful to anyone and it is better sold/salvaged/scrapped.
You are missing the point a bit. Those are NOT AD sinks.
So it would be YOU, not me, who would pump AD into the player economy.
It would be YOU, not me, who would fuel inflation.
It would be YOU, not me, who would devalue AD.
And people also need to understand that the way THEY play is not THE way to play.
I know those are not AD sinks, but these are, simply, on average, *better* value to a player than AD sinks. Not a single player thinks "what will benefit more the economy, upgrading this white/green companion for 1,5mil AD or buying an already maxed purple companion with the similar/same bonus from the AH, for 500k?". They see a better and cheaper option and they take it.
Comments
Again, if ZEN was traded from AD, that AD simply changed hands. It's still there, it didn't disappear and it wasn't even "taxed" as happens in the AH.
If I purchased ten milion ZEN right now, and spent all that ZEN on fashion, the inflation would not change by a single bit. Maybe it would even increase (temporarily), because I pushed in a lot of AD that I had stored/not using and it was effectively out of circulation.
Can you please stop hanging yourself up on that one tought? It is not like it is the only thing i wrote. To be exact: I haven't even written it like you are telling me.
And just for clarification: You buy 1000 Zen. This makes 1000 Zen more which is circling in the "economy". You spend it immediately for something in the shop. That makes 1000 less in the economy. You HAVE to count it since you could have also traded it for AD.
You got similar principles in retail-market: You sell an employee something directly from the storage and it counts as a sale you have to pay taxes for, even if it never reached the actual marked.
The Zen you sold at 400 and I had to buy at 405, just at the upper limit there is no tax. Which might be a mistake, as it creates a cheap speculation window.
1) You buy 1000 ZEN (with AD): nothing really changes (as per above statement) someone lost 1000ZEN, you lost 500k AD, but nothing was pulled out of the total amount of ZEN or AD.
2) You buy 1000 ZEN (with RL money): this "creates" 1000 ZEN more in the economy. You buy a nice ZEN hat for 1000 ZEN. 1000 ZEN is "destroyed". Nothing really changes (except for a new hat you can show on your character).
3) You buy 1000 ZEN (with RL money): this "creates" 1000 ZEN more in the economy. You trade it for 500k AD. You now have 500k AD that another player had. Another player gains 1000 ZEN. He eventually trades it again for AD (return to step 1). At the end of the chain, someone else buys a ZEN hat for 1000 ZEN. 1000 ZEN is "destroyed". Again, nothing changes (as per point 1)
4) You buy 1000 ZEN (with RL money): this "creates" 1000 ZEN more in the economy. Also, you notice the devs have decided to remove the ZAX limit! You trade it for twentyfivethousandzillions AD. You now have twentyfivethousandzillions AD that another player had. Another player gains 1000 ZEN. He eventually trades it again for AD (return to step 1). At the end of the chain, someone else buys a ZEN hat for 1000 zen. 1000 zen is "destroyed". Again, see point 1: twentyfivethousandzillions AD changed hands, but not a single one was removed.
5) You drop an Artifact of Recombobulation: this "creates" a BoE item. You trade it for 500k AD on the AH. You now have 450k AD that another player had. 50k AD is permanently lost in the process. Another player gains an Artifact of Recombobulation. He eventually trades it for 500k AD (50k more is lost in the process as long as this continues). Eventually someone binds that Artifact of Recombobulation. This "destroys" a BoE item (except for a new artifact you can show on your character). 50k^n AD was definitely lost in the process.
So, the AD/ZEN limit has no importance in the grand scheme. Unless you are planning on buying items on the AD store (and there is currently no reason to do so, as you find much better and/or much cheaper items on the AH), inflation stays the same.
This is not "tax". It's simply where demand and offer meets. You could sell ZEN at 400 and buy back at 400 provided someone was willing to sell at that price.
I asked you to read all i wrote earlier.
There is quite a lot of stuff in the game at the moment you have to pay AD for. Campaigns for example. Or upgrading companions.
You do not need to tell me, that this stuff is "useless" or anything like that. Most players of computergames do not care about maximum effectiveness. They actually do pay those AD to upgrade a companion. Or buying useless stuff from the AD-Shop. And those AD vanish.
And you can bet, that a grant fraction of the playerbase consists of such people.
while the ZAX rate was, e.g. 400/405 you could not sell for 400, even if you'd sell your AD for 400 the system would adjust the AD to 405, taking 405 from the player who buys, removing 5 AD from the game. Try selling today 1 Z for 400 AD and see what you get (500 AD)
There always was a 5 AD gap vetween selling/buying, except when facing the limit.
A character usually generates enough AD by passive tasks (invocation, leadership) to cover the "must haves", like artifact upgrade materials and one-time purchases in the campaigns, especially if it doesn't need dungeon unlocks (that are the costliest, and rather unrewarding).
As for the average player, it's hard to tell how much he uses the "extra" items from AD shops (or companion upgrades). Unless we have some data (that Cryptic will never disclose), both yours and mine are just opinions.
The AD is NEVER removed in the ZAX. If you sell 100Z for 400AD you get 40k AD. If you buy 100Z for 400AD you spend 40k AD.
If you try to sell zen for less than the current highest offer, there is a safeguard mechanic that will sell the ZEN to the best offer (i.e. if you wanted to sell ZEN for 50AD and there was an offer to buy ZEN for 400 AD, you would sell the ZEN for 400 AD. If there was no better offer than 50 AD, you would sell for 50 AD. It always gives to you every single AD removed from the other player.
Also, the underlined part means that you actually get MORE AD, not less, how can that be a tax?
The Z you sold for 400AD I had to buy for 405AD ... there never was an overlap if you compared the "buy offers" with the "sell offers".
If I only offered 400 AD I would not get the AD, as none were on the window for the "ZEN OFFERS" window. The lowest Z offer had been your offer +5 AD.
But I might just as well have a wrong impression there ... maybe we will see it one day where the ADX is below 495 again!
But if you feel that no AD were taken out of the system that might be OK as well.
Of course they are just opinions and might be wrong, but years of MMO-experience give you a pretty solid idea on how the average player ... well, plays. And what he spends his money on.
I can tell you for sure, that only very few people actually think that much about stuff like we are doing right now.
Also i can assure you, that you do NOT generate enough AD through passive tasks as a somewhat new player. I haven't played this game for long yet and i got only three characters, two of them at 60. And I often struggle to get enough AD for campaign unlocks on my youngest character withhout spending much on anything else.
This is mostly because iam not playing every day for hours to do all those dailys and dungeonruns i would actually need to do in order to advance smoothly.
Yet i do not see myself as someone who does not think about what he is doing much. I actually do try to maximize effectiveness of everything I do as much as iam able. Now think about this: Most people do not.
When did you start over with a fresh account withhout help of anyone? Months of even a year ago? You might wanna try it out for yourself on a fresh account. It is not as easy as you might think anymore.
These are simply offer/demand dynamics. You can offer even now to buy ZEN at 50 AD each, but if no one is willing to sell, your offer will just stay there forever. Don't mistake the lack of an offer at a certain price for some kind of hidden tax.
There was no overlap simply because if there were offers to buy zen at price X and offers to sell zen at the same price X, they would be automatically matched and fulfilled, until there is either no more zen for sale at price X or no more buy offers at the same price.
It's pretty much like buying games at Gamestop. You buy a new game for $50. The next day you decide you don't like it and want to trade it back and you walk out with $10. It's not because there is some kind of $40 tax, simply they aren't interested to buy the game back for more than that.
That's weird. If you just log twice a day, you get 1665 AD per character by invoking (we assume a fresh lv60). Leadership twice a day at low levels (it takes a couple days to get to lv 10) nets 2200 AD per day (3x Battle Undead twice a day). A couple days later you unlock Mining Claims task (lv 13), about 1400 AD a day (2x Mining Claim twice a day, we assume that you unlocked only the free 5 task slots).
That's 5200 AD a day, and you didn't even start "playing", it's passive income. It takes some 250k to unlock all non-dungeon campaign stuff, plus some 150k more if you plan on doing all the dungeons (but you can really pass on both Sharandar and Dread Ring ones). It takes a month and a half to unlock everything non-dungeon related (but considering it's mostly time-gated, you will take far more time and have more AD).
But if you do a single daily every day, say 3x skirmishes, and we assume you are terribly unlucky and drop nothing at all (and that's hardly possible) and your timing is so bad you never do it when Skirmish bonus is on, you get an extra 3000 AD, for a total of 8200 AD a day, and you unlock *everything* campaign related in 48 days. If you consider you need at least 14 days to unlock IwD and then a minimum of 35 days to complete it (350 rep, 10 a day), it matches perfectly (i don't know how much it takes to unlock the whole ToD campaign, but I assume even more than IwD).
400k/5200=76
On a single character and you havent bought anything "fun" yet. Only campaign progress. At the same time you could finish most campaigns earlier if you have enough AD at all times. I think you see where the "struggle" point comes from. Now make this two characters (since you start out with only two at maximum) and you might see it even more.
And you still have not bought anything "fun".
Well "normal" players also do dungeon runs and play the game actively, they don't rely on passive income only, i was doing calculations on the "zero playtime" characters, but obviously average player will actively play the game and gain way more AD. A single PK run takes less than 15 minutes and it's a T2 dungeon, so you will always get a purple item to salvage (4-5k AD per run, plus other stuff).
This thread is about the limit for refining rough AD. For most players, most of that goes into AD Sinks anyway. AD Sinks do not add anything to the global economy - only trading on the ZAX and AH does that. But this thread is not about the ZAX or the AH.
During the hyper-inflation period, I did not buy anything on the AH at a silly price. It's always a Buyer's Market, as long as you are patient and sensible. The prices came down, but not because everyone was paying ludicrous prices; most people did not have giga-amounts of AD (except the exploiters); prices dropped largely because a lot of people who tried to take advantage of the situation lost their posting fee and had to re-post at a lower price. I watched the prices drop until they got to a level I was happy with. Perfect Vorpals dropped from 20 million to less than 6 million, for example. That's another AD Sink: people who are too greedy lose their posting fee. But only patient players can make sure that they DO lose their posting fee - by not buying.
Exactly!
And ALL of those are AD Sinks.
I want 2 million AD to get 4000 Zen for a Shadow Wolf. I do not "need" it, but I want it. That will take well over a month if I do not buy Marks, Professional staff etc. But I will probably lose patience and get out my credit card. That's another reason they will not raise the refining limit on RAD. And it's probably good and reasonable business practice for them to take that attitude. You eventually get enough AD to unlock the level 60 boons, it's just all the other sinks that are a problem.
Maybe two different types of AD? 24k per day for "global" use, and anything above that is "Personal Use AD", maybe a different colour in a different currency slot, and can only be spent on official AD Sinks? I have never bought Zen to trade for AD so I can pour it down an AD Sink and I never will. But I pour AD I refine down them all the time, and do not hurt the economy at all. I also have bought a lot of Zen, but I spend it on Character Slots, Retraining Tokens, Shared Bank Slots, Greater Bags of Holding, Dye Packs, Account-Wide Mounts etc - stuff that the Zen Market has that I cannot get cheaper elsewhere.
But imagine how many AD I need for 15 characters! Only 12 are level 60, but I "Main" a DO, an AC, an MI, a WK, an HR Pathfinder and a GWF Swordmaster.
I will be "maining" the others soon for the AD, as I have several PvP and Dungeon Delve quests saved up, but they have to have a decent gear score before I can show my face in there, as I have little skill with anything that is not DC or TR. Although, my 10k HR does surprisingly well.
Both my TRs have *cheap* Battlefield Skulker gear from the AH, and have three pieces of their Profound sets from PvP. They just need the actual armour now. It's the Seals of Triumph that take the time at one per day. Then I can salvage their Skulker's gear.
But at the moment I have zero Zen and about 50k AD, and only a little unrefined.
Does ANYONE rely on passive income only? Even Farmer Bots?
:rolleyes:
Except the times that Invoking gives you 335 AD or no AD at all.
You won't be unlocking anything in Dread Ring or Sharandar with AD unless you also have the crescents, fey sparks, seeds, Vanguard Scripts, Thayan Scrolls etc etc. Some of these currencies you can get from Celestial Coin Campaign Boxes, but you will never unlock the boons from Invoking, Leadership and Skirmishes; you have to actively run through those campaigns many times.
~
335AD is the third time before your invoking "day" resets. 0AD is every time after that before your rewards reset and you get coins and 1000AD. If you log in to invoke twice per day, you would get 1665AD as stated. 2000AD is the maximum available to level 60s, doled out in diminishing amounts.
Only the blessings and potions are randomized. The AD is a fixed reward, scaled to your level.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Is that right? It's just the number of times you have invoked per day, not the time of day you do it?
Why did I never notice that? :rolleyes:
So, each level 60 should get 2000 RAD per day from invoking?
Ah, well, at least my other points are valid!
Thanks for that.
Most of this is either unneeded to a single player (the 750k for bank are per guild not per person, thus potentially 5k per person -you must have a huge guild, mine is over 100 players and we still have plenty of space-), purchased on the AH cheaper than in AD store (especially blue Marks of Potency that can get as low as 15k sometimes, but I get them regularly for 22-23k), or can be found far better versions of in AH (for every green companion you might want there is a better version that costs less and is available on the AH. Want a healer? Lillend is 480k on the AH, Angel of Protection even cheaper. Need a tank? Galeb Dhur is among the best, 990k).
Your other point, about needing extra stuff to advance in the campaign, was unrelated as well, we were talking about how much time do you need to get enough AD, of course you need other stuff, but that was obvious and out of scope :P
And how do you know how much the average player plays?
Also, like someone already said: you actually also have to use time to run those campaign quests in order to advance. This reduces the time you actually have for running dungeons and other stuff that give AD. I think you know where this is going, if you have only limited time per day for computer games.
Yes, this is actually a casual-problem. But guess who is the main-playerbase of nearly every MMO.
Thanks for your input, but "Nonsense".
But 750/5 = 150! Are you sure you do not mean 250k per member?
FIVE K AD?
You have 150 Guild Members? My Guild has FOUR active members.
FOUR.
The fifth original member could not continue playing due to poor connection speeds and members six and seven are pretty inactive now. Unlike many Guilds, we rarely play together anymore as they hate PvP and are ex-Pats living abroad. But we have a Vault each:
Vault 1
was opened by the first of us to start playing (our Captain, Mentor and God of Neverwinter), but he sells and Auctions everything, so he does not need it anymore. It is full of potions for new characters and for leveling Alchemy; mostly put there by me.
Vault 2
is the guy who cannot play anymore, so it is also full of Node Kits, injury kits, scrolls and potions for new characters, plus some dye kits and other stuff. Again, mostly put there by me.
Vault 3
is shared by members 3 and 4 as they are married and do not want to spend any more AD on Guild Vaults.
Vault 4
was was opened by me and has gear, food items and other stuff and is used for transferring gear between characters when my 48 Shared Bank Vault Slots are full. The cost for this Vault, IIRC, was 600k AD, which worked out cheaper per slot than 16 slots in a Personal Bank and a lot cheaper than 8 Slots in a Shared Bank Vault.
In any case, the purchase has to be made by a single player - we knew of no legitimate way of pooling AD from several players into one, so we took turns to open the Vaults. The more you open, the more expensive they become. The others are not interested in blowing that much AD on another one, but I need the space for transferring stuff between characters. I am still killing Pinatas from the Summer Festival!
Really? It is such a shame that with your 100+ members, you do not feel that you can trust each other enough to be able to use the Guild Vault in a sensible, convenient manner. I am so glad that in the world of NW, there are three people I KNOW I can trust - we are old friends from Skyrim and we can put Epic Gear and Rank 8 Enchants in there and know they will still be there 6 months later.
We would NEVER let someone we do not know have access to our Guild Vaults. We all have Full Access as Guild Leaders.
You are missing the point a bit. Those are NOT AD sinks.
So it would be YOU, not me, who would pump AD into the player economy.
It would be YOU, not me, who would fuel inflation.
It would be YOU, not me, who would devalue AD.
And people also need to understand that the way THEY play is not THE way to play.
I have the following Companions available to any new Character I make:
I also have a free War Dog, two Rare Priestesses of Sune and two Rare Skeletal Dogs from somewhere. And some characters have Fire Sprites (+2% AP Gain), Moonshea Druids, Green Slime and other companions which are in the Stable most of the time. One has an active Ioun Stone of Allure as well as the Stone of Radiance.
But I choose Companions and upgrade them based on the Active Bonus they give in PvE, not what they can do when Summoned or how cheap they are on the AH. I WOULD like some Ioun Stones of Might, though.
Of course, the only Companion worth summoning in PvE is the Ioun Stone for the enhancement.
But, as I stated throughout, I need more AD for my characters to pour into AD Sinks.
So, forget the AD Tax system I suggested in Post #12. I think a better system would be:
So anything over 24k per day can ONLY be used for upgrading Bound Companions, opening Guild Bank Vaults, buying Refining Stones and Marks from the Wondrous Bazaar, advancing Dread Ring, Sharandar etc.
And Azure AD will be NO USE AT ALL to Bot Farmers.
Azure AD will NEVER BE ABLE TO INFLATE THE ECONOMY.
I now think that this would be much better than a Tax on Refined RAD.
The only thing needed then would be a way of pooling all the Azure AD onto a single character, like we can by putting up very low offers for Zen, then cancelling and withdrawing the AD with another character.
And, of course, the AD Sinks will have to be coded to accept Azure AD as a currency, in addition to Silvery AD.
Maybe something for Module 6?
Well, if you don't play the game much you won't be really power-hungry as to want to complete everything... that's quite obvious though. Most casual players that play just for lulz and fun an average of 15 minutes a day probably won't even look at the campaigns, or will just pick the latest one, or the one that looks better. If you know you can't or don't want to dedicate more than a couple hours a week to the game, you won't complete everything. But that's true for every MMO out there.
It is probably true that casual players are the main playerbase, but they probably have the minor impact on inflation, as they create and spend few AD. Those people will never reach the 24k AD limit, and it is definitely not an issue to them (I play up to 3 hours a day and get no more than 15-20k rAD per character). Thus casual players are not concerned by the OP proposal.
The people who create the most AD are those with 10 characters on account, log every day 3x for invoking and do leadership professions 3x (with all slots unlocked). A single one of such players creates more AD in a week than 100 casual players that play 2-3 hours a week.
You missed the point. If you *need* 7 vault tabs for 4 players, you are using the guild vault as a personal storage, and that is not the intended use. Of course you *can* do it, but it is not an expense every player will face, as opposed to campaign and artifact upgrade costs.
It has nothing to do with trust, it's about storing things you know someone might find useful. If an item lays around for more than a week, it means it's not useful to anyone and it is better sold/salvaged/scrapped.
I know those are not AD sinks, but these are, simply, on average, *better* value to a player than AD sinks. Not a single player thinks "what will benefit more the economy, upgrading this white/green companion for 1,5mil AD or buying an already maxed purple companion with the similar/same bonus from the AH, for 500k?". They see a better and cheaper option and they take it.