There is a role and place for damage that can't be mitigated. But currently, the game has too much of it, and it's too easy to use in most cases. If it would come from a combo that's hard to pull off, a move with a very long casting time, or be suboptimal in some other fashion, that would make it acceptable.
Being killed by an HR that looks at you the wrong way is bad. A TR that hits you with a daily that can't be mitigated from stealth is bad too, but far less frequent. Any free-riding glyph damage that goes through everything is bad. CWs hitting you with easy Storm Spell procs from continuous Ray of Frost is bad. Even GWFs being able to run close to you and intimidate you is bad.
Well put, whole-heartedly agreed.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The devs completely ruined some fun combat mechanics by taking away damage from encounters and replacing it with passive damage. They ruined rangers as far as I'm concerned by pigeon holing people into onc build and one build only. I promptly deleted my capped ranger as soon as I saw that mod 4 was going to force me to be a combat pathfinder. My fun was from the playstyle of always switching stances and moving around doing diff encounters. Not ambush/marauders/bulls rush/aimed strike then dance about watching bleeds with unmitigated damage kill off who ever I just hit. They made other HUGE mistakes with classes in mod 4 but those issues are for another thread.
I still cannot understand why they cannot do something about the unmitigated damage from glyphs. In pve which is what they are based on are not needed at all and make it easier for a cw to solo t2 epics.......
And pvp it is broken on every character.
There needs to be mitigation, this unmitigated damage is absurd and a complete breaking of class mechanics. Yes i enjoy being melted while using my block that does nothing to the dot spam being used on me.....with red glyphs or another glyph bypassing it. I am sure other classes enjoy this same feeling when they cannot do anything to counter it.
"Even GWFs being able to run close to you and intimidate you is bad."
So what is a GWF supposed to do?
Run close to you and hit you with a takedown if sprinter build, or fls, or restoring strike. Not some insta- cast aoe. However, i got the impression that intimidation could be mitigated and hit for less on some targets. But i play destro so not sure about how it works.
To me, the question is how easy it is to dispatch damage. I have no problems if a CW can get me with shard and deal 30k damage to me with it. No problem if a GF can guard well against my sprint and then hit me hard. No problem if a HR can hit me hard with a hard-to-land encounter (and no, by my standard boar is not 'hard to land'. No guaranteed hit =/= hard to land).
I have a problem when i must work my *** to land my DPS while the enemy can eat through my defense and hp pool just holding down a button, no matter what i do.
The feeling is exactly this: the cheesy enemy start hitting you with undodgeable/ almost undodgeable unmitigated damage. You have a timer and you must kill him before time is over.
Fighting a glyph user or a toon with easy mode passive DPS is like that for me on my gwf. Hp start dropping no matter how much you sprint or how much you outplay the enemy. So kill faster or lose.
I don't think anyone has to worry about intimidation's unmitigated damage. A gwf needs 10k power to deal 5k damage with either daring shout or come and get it. And since people stack 35k+ hp for pvp, that's a joke. Oh and btw, it can't crit.
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idontwinitskkMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 43Arc User
edited September 2014
As a GWF player myself,i can honestly say pando pretty much spot on summarizes how difficult and frustrating it is to play a completely skill based class in todays cheesefest of passive brainless point and click mass dps.And people thought having to actually LAND Roar and Takedown while everything else apart from Shard on tab was autotarget made the class easiest to play lol.I hope those same individuals enjoy getting storm spelled,pierced up the *** or anvil'd to death in seconds now.
Module 3 PvP for all it's problems was actually way better than all the crybabies on forum made it out be.The top 2 PvP classes needed SPECIFIC and MODERATE nerfs to bring them more in line with the general power curve(damage scaling and Roar duration tonedown for GWFs so they can't hulk you down too easily;dot and profound set nerf for HRs to remove the stupid apply dot run around untill enemy dead playstyle).Even though they were the obvious top dogs,nothing was so blatantly overpowered about either to completely remove any counterplay possibilities.
Couple the tweaks to the *overpowered* classes with mainly QoL changes to the weaker ones(faster animations,slightly more base damage and block buff for GF; defence-oriented tweaks to CW to help them survive chain cc without needing to go into instant low hp panic mode if they don't straight up die to whatever is hitting them) as well as giving the niche classes(DC and TR) some more playstyle options and there you have it - balanced PvP.Obviously with the massive power creep that came with Module 4 in the form of artifact gear those changes might have proven to be insufficient but atleast would act as a proper stepping stone for further tweaking.
What we have now instead is a completely borked and skillless *action-oriented* pvp system that doesn't in any way,shape or form reward skillfull play.Free dailies,free proc damage,free fire and forget dots,free autotarget stun chains,free unmitigated damage from everything and *hold shift for absurd reflect damage skillfull build* - all of which require no effort or brainpower to achieve and very low ad investment in the form of various mindnumbingly stupid designed overload enchants.
Now on the topic at hand,should unmitigated damage exist? Yes.
Should EVERY class have access to unmitigated damage and should that damage be sufficient to kill anything in itself? F**k no. Unmitigated damage should be a NICHE of say,Warlocks for example.
If it makes sense,don't do it.Let's see how long players have to suffer for that stupid balance model Cryptic applies to both PvE and PvP.
dot and profound set nerf for HRs to remove the stupid apply dot run around untill enemy dead playstyle).Even though they were the obvious top dogs,nothing was so blatantly overpowered about either to completely remove any counterplay possibilities.
So I'm guessing back in Module 2 you were crying that they shouldn't nerf HR? Anyway, the HR DOT and kite playstyle took way more skill then the GWF roar IBS and Takedown play-style. In fact if they nerfed the set it'd take WAY more skill then your GWF playstyle right now.... Considering you guys do the same thing we do if you're smart (Get rotation off and then sprint around until off cooldown). The old play-style (remember I'm talking about if they nerf the set) actually took more skill then landing shard (When I played with my CW shard was never hard to land if you were smart enough to CC the player.) So why remove it? Because it got your balls in a bunch when you couldn't catch the HR? If they give us our 3 fox shifts on 1 target back, and our old constricting, hindering, thorn ward, then by all means take our healing away, in fact we can pretend it never happened.. But people will cry like they always cry, people will cry if we do a lot of damage, a lot of healing, and a lot of DOT..
Know why? Because their Cleric should be able to beat us, their GWF should be able to beat us, their Rogue should be able to beat us, their Scourage Warlock should be able to beat us, their Gaurdian Fighter should be able to beat us. The devs messed up the HR in Mod 3 and people won't stop crying UNTIL we're over nerfed (You can still see people crying about our healing thinking it's the set or Wilds Medicine, you can still people crying about how we can hit them with 3 Fox Shifts, you can still see people crying about how Thorn Ward does 10k dmg on them..) IT WILL NEVER STOP
Give us DCs the ability to heal to full within few seconds then I don't mind having unmitigable damage. It's not absurd considering how everyone could kill us in 1 or 2 rotations.
Give us DCs the ability to heal to full within few seconds then I don't mind having unmitigable damage. It's not absurd considering how everyone could kill us in 1 or 2 rotations.
They nerfed tene because it was too OP, but then they introduced glyphs which are 10 times more broken...
Just LOL
Devs here doesn't know how to balance, just see how their class "balance" ended, just see their Glyphs... etc... They don't know their own game and it's a fact. We can only hope:
1- They start to play NWO to understand how to balance.
2- New Devs are hired.
The main reason GWF was easy mode wasn't because the powers were the easiest to land, but because it was so forgiving, between strong short cooldown CCs and Unstoppable. GWFs could usually afford to miss and to make mistakes, even lots of them, and could still come out on top against most other classes, who on their end could not really afford any mistakes, because that would usually just lead to death by IBS. The sole exception being HRs. A blundering oaf could enjoy reasonable success as GWF because of that; not because the moves were necessarily the easiest to pull off, but because of the comfortable margin for error they had.
Right now the tables turned. I play a no-glyphs 'sprinter' build. Battle fury, takedown, ibs. And i am quite safe saying it's 80% skill to play this way. Reason why i love it. It's true you can sprint most of the time, but
-you can't sprint non-stop. So you need to actually guess when the enemy will try to cc you and make them miss. I don't win against GF or HR cause i sprint all the time. I win when i guess right when they will try and prone me, and sprint with perfect timing. Then counter attack.
- if you're predictable, a good player can wait for you to actually stop sprinting when you attack, and cc you.
- using takedown means you need to anticipate where the enemy will teleport/ dodge and follow them to stay in melee range
There's no assistance. It's 100% in your hands. No 'point and click'. It's hard and unforgiving, but fun. And i really challenge any player to go pvp with this setup and be successful.
Look at the above duel. There's no easy button for both fighters. That's how i pvp usually, except for the fact that the gwf gets lazy at some point. But pretty much, it's skill and timing to evade (TR) vs skill and timing to use footwork to find the TR for gwf. It's not easy cause good permas are almost impossibile to catch. But still doable and fun.
Glyphs, red and blue are first source of imbalances. If i meet an enemy able to eat fast through my defense and hp it's 99% of the time a red glyph user, or a mix of blue and red. Else i always manage to fight back. And it's more rewarding cause when i hit, or when i dodge, i know skills are involved.
Right now the tables turned. I play a no-glyphs 'sprinter' build. Battle fury, takedown, ibs. And i am quite safe saying it's 80% skill to play this way. Reason why i love it. It's true you can sprint most of the time, but
-you can't sprint non-stop. So you need to actually guess when the enemy will try to cc you and make them miss. I don't win against GF or HR cause i sprint all the time. I win when i guess right when they will try and prone me, and sprint with perfect timing. Then counter attack.
- if you're predictable, a good player can wait for you to actually stop sprinting when you attack, and cc you.
- using takedown means you need to anticipate where the enemy will teleport/ dodge and follow them to stay in melee range
There's no assistance. It's 100% in your hands. No 'point and click'. It's hard and unforgiving, but fun. And i really challenge any player to go pvp with this setup and be successful.
Look at the above duel. There's no easy button for both fighters. That's how i pvp usually, except for the fact that the gwf gets lazy at some point. But pretty much, it's skill and timing to evade (TR) vs skill and timing to use footwork to find the TR for gwf. It's not easy cause good permas are almost impossibile to catch. But still doable and fun.
Glyphs, red and blue are first source of imbalances. If i meet an enemy able to eat fast through my defense and hp it's 99% of the time a red glyph user, or a mix of blue and red. Else i always manage to fight back. And it's more rewarding cause when i hit, or when i dodge, i know skills are involved.
Thanks for the vids. Fun to watch.. except for the customized camera distance... I think that almost made me barf... *urrrrppp...*
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So if this poll doesn't express what the community feels(on a sample size basis) I do not know what will push the devs to do something about glyphs/piercing blades XD.
unmitigated damage is just plain stupid, that being said, I can't think of a word for unmitigated damage from procs regardless of your dodge, is their another word for stupidier?
So if this poll doesn't express what the community feels(on a sample size basis) I do not know what will push the devs to do something about glyphs/piercing blades XD.
The devs would be pretty daft to pay any attention whatsoever to a poll that's only attracted 79 responses on a forum that comprises a very small percentage of the game's players and where PvP players are massively over-represented.
If there were red zones you couldn't dodge or avoid, the PvE outcry would be pretty big too. And that stuff usually gets fixed pretty fast, like with the falling stones hazard in Lostmauth's Lair and GWFs not being cc immune against it (iirc).
True macjae, glyphs matter in pvp more than pve. Ive always wished powers/feats/class features/enchants/boons worked differently between PvE and PvP...
I think what twilightwatchman is trying to get to is that 1 playstyle's complaint ends up <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people on the other side, in addition to their own. Ill admit I play PvE, with a little PvP'ing on the side. But when I come here on the forums, its all the same anymore. "X class has an advantage over me, QQ for nerfs. Ignore fact that I have advantages over him/other classes". Ive always referenced PvP as a 5v5 and 20v20 team style game... But im seeing a constant "I cant 1v1 this guy" QQ base.
Hey, Warlocks had problems in Lostmauth's Lair too :P.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
For me Class feature is ok I just don't like the additional unmitigated damage by the the enchantment or its not dodgeable. Its already too much. Unmitigated damage is ok if its a class to class basis I have already experience a PvP fight that last almost an hour because you cant kill each other beacause of high defence. If they take it out they should take out also the buffs that gives you high defence and high regeneration when below 30 percent of life. Just as my experience you cant kill some GF, HR and a GWf even if I use SE to them.
Comments
Well put, whole-heartedly agreed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So what is a GWF supposed to do?
Grow in size, shrink down, and die.
From procs? No.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
He is referring to Intimidation procs.
And pvp it is broken on every character.
There needs to be mitigation, this unmitigated damage is absurd and a complete breaking of class mechanics. Yes i enjoy being melted while using my block that does nothing to the dot spam being used on me.....with red glyphs or another glyph bypassing it. I am sure other classes enjoy this same feeling when they cannot do anything to counter it.
Run close to you and hit you with a takedown if sprinter build, or fls, or restoring strike. Not some insta- cast aoe. However, i got the impression that intimidation could be mitigated and hit for less on some targets. But i play destro so not sure about how it works.
To me, the question is how easy it is to dispatch damage. I have no problems if a CW can get me with shard and deal 30k damage to me with it. No problem if a GF can guard well against my sprint and then hit me hard. No problem if a HR can hit me hard with a hard-to-land encounter (and no, by my standard boar is not 'hard to land'. No guaranteed hit =/= hard to land).
I have a problem when i must work my *** to land my DPS while the enemy can eat through my defense and hp pool just holding down a button, no matter what i do.
The feeling is exactly this: the cheesy enemy start hitting you with undodgeable/ almost undodgeable unmitigated damage. You have a timer and you must kill him before time is over.
Fighting a glyph user or a toon with easy mode passive DPS is like that for me on my gwf. Hp start dropping no matter how much you sprint or how much you outplay the enemy. So kill faster or lose.
PvP right now is as skill-less as it can be.
I don't think anyone has to worry about intimidation's unmitigated damage. A gwf needs 10k power to deal 5k damage with either daring shout or come and get it. And since people stack 35k+ hp for pvp, that's a joke. Oh and btw, it can't crit.
Module 3 PvP for all it's problems was actually way better than all the crybabies on forum made it out be.The top 2 PvP classes needed SPECIFIC and MODERATE nerfs to bring them more in line with the general power curve(damage scaling and Roar duration tonedown for GWFs so they can't hulk you down too easily;dot and profound set nerf for HRs to remove the stupid apply dot run around untill enemy dead playstyle).Even though they were the obvious top dogs,nothing was so blatantly overpowered about either to completely remove any counterplay possibilities.
Couple the tweaks to the *overpowered* classes with mainly QoL changes to the weaker ones(faster animations,slightly more base damage and block buff for GF; defence-oriented tweaks to CW to help them survive chain cc without needing to go into instant low hp panic mode if they don't straight up die to whatever is hitting them) as well as giving the niche classes(DC and TR) some more playstyle options and there you have it - balanced PvP.Obviously with the massive power creep that came with Module 4 in the form of artifact gear those changes might have proven to be insufficient but atleast would act as a proper stepping stone for further tweaking.
What we have now instead is a completely borked and skillless *action-oriented* pvp system that doesn't in any way,shape or form reward skillfull play.Free dailies,free proc damage,free fire and forget dots,free autotarget stun chains,free unmitigated damage from everything and *hold shift for absurd reflect damage skillfull build* - all of which require no effort or brainpower to achieve and very low ad investment in the form of various mindnumbingly stupid designed overload enchants.
Now on the topic at hand,should unmitigated damage exist? Yes.
Should EVERY class have access to unmitigated damage and should that damage be sufficient to kill anything in itself? F**k no. Unmitigated damage should be a NICHE of say,Warlocks for example.
If it makes sense,don't do it.Let's see how long players have to suffer for that stupid balance model Cryptic applies to both PvE and PvP.
So I'm guessing back in Module 2 you were crying that they shouldn't nerf HR? Anyway, the HR DOT and kite playstyle took way more skill then the GWF roar IBS and Takedown play-style. In fact if they nerfed the set it'd take WAY more skill then your GWF playstyle right now.... Considering you guys do the same thing we do if you're smart (Get rotation off and then sprint around until off cooldown). The old play-style (remember I'm talking about if they nerf the set) actually took more skill then landing shard (When I played with my CW shard was never hard to land if you were smart enough to CC the player.) So why remove it? Because it got your balls in a bunch when you couldn't catch the HR? If they give us our 3 fox shifts on 1 target back, and our old constricting, hindering, thorn ward, then by all means take our healing away, in fact we can pretend it never happened.. But people will cry like they always cry, people will cry if we do a lot of damage, a lot of healing, and a lot of DOT..
Know why? Because their Cleric should be able to beat us, their GWF should be able to beat us, their Rogue should be able to beat us, their Scourage Warlock should be able to beat us, their Gaurdian Fighter should be able to beat us. The devs messed up the HR in Mod 3 and people won't stop crying UNTIL we're over nerfed (You can still see people crying about our healing thinking it's the set or Wilds Medicine, you can still people crying about how we can hit them with 3 Fox Shifts, you can still see people crying about how Thorn Ward does 10k dmg on them..) IT WILL NEVER STOP
Broken vs Broken FTW!!
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
Seconded Hehehehehe
Just LOL
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
Devs here doesn't know how to balance, just see how their class "balance" ended, just see their Glyphs... etc... They don't know their own game and it's a fact. We can only hope:
1- They start to play NWO to understand how to balance.
2- New Devs are hired.
Right now the tables turned. I play a no-glyphs 'sprinter' build. Battle fury, takedown, ibs. And i am quite safe saying it's 80% skill to play this way. Reason why i love it. It's true you can sprint most of the time, but
-you can't sprint non-stop. So you need to actually guess when the enemy will try to cc you and make them miss. I don't win against GF or HR cause i sprint all the time. I win when i guess right when they will try and prone me, and sprint with perfect timing. Then counter attack.
- if you're predictable, a good player can wait for you to actually stop sprinting when you attack, and cc you.
- using takedown means you need to anticipate where the enemy will teleport/ dodge and follow them to stay in melee range
There's no assistance. It's 100% in your hands. No 'point and click'. It's hard and unforgiving, but fun. And i really challenge any player to go pvp with this setup and be successful.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4sLcbLeVGYI
Look at the above duel. There's no easy button for both fighters. That's how i pvp usually, except for the fact that the gwf gets lazy at some point. But pretty much, it's skill and timing to evade (TR) vs skill and timing to use footwork to find the TR for gwf. It's not easy cause good permas are almost impossibile to catch. But still doable and fun.
Glyphs, red and blue are first source of imbalances. If i meet an enemy able to eat fast through my defense and hp it's 99% of the time a red glyph user, or a mix of blue and red. Else i always manage to fight back. And it's more rewarding cause when i hit, or when i dodge, i know skills are involved.
Thanks for the vids. Fun to watch.. except for the customized camera distance... I think that almost made me barf... *urrrrppp...*
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
True macjae, glyphs matter in pvp more than pve. Ive always wished powers/feats/class features/enchants/boons worked differently between PvE and PvP...
I think what twilightwatchman is trying to get to is that 1 playstyle's complaint ends up <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people on the other side, in addition to their own. Ill admit I play PvE, with a little PvP'ing on the side. But when I come here on the forums, its all the same anymore. "X class has an advantage over me, QQ for nerfs. Ignore fact that I have advantages over him/other classes". Ive always referenced PvP as a 5v5 and 20v20 team style game... But im seeing a constant "I cant 1v1 this guy" QQ base.
Hey, Warlocks had problems in Lostmauth's Lair too :P.