Do You Think Unmitigated damage belongs in Neverwinter?

mfgamesys

I pose a Question to those out there who are willing to listen.

Should this game continue down the path of having more unmitigated damage/'glyphs' or do we fight for a game that respects our defenses. Because with the additions in mod 4 with certain class changes and new overload slot enchants the game has become less about skill and more about how can I apply the most dots and kite my opponent. Do we really want to continue down this road of dots and procs?

For example was giving the cw a proc that would ignore dr and deflect a good idea? Imo no, and I am glad it was changed to respect such things.

Another would be Teneboros Enchantments doing unmitigated damage, great idea? No it wasn't and the community a year ago did not like such a thing and with the new glyphs some have quit the game till a fix has been implemented or have moved on.

What is the point of stacking armor pen when you get most of your damage that bypasses armor completely? Should I worry about defense at this point and only worry about my hp? Do I need power to increase my damage or is it good enough with the enchants I use? Critical strike whats that? So then should I only worry about recovery, hp, hp/stamina regen, ap gain, and movement?

I ask you do we want to have unmitigated damage in this game or not?

ripyourlipsoff

Absolutely not! This is a game based on dice rolls and everything having a counter. There should not be any damage that cannot be defended/ blocked/ dodged/ or absorbed. Period!

magiquepurse

It's an Action MMO. You shouldn't have EASY MODE damage sources, you should AIM and TIME your abilities.

So NO. Get that **** outta here.

sprawlfx

Sure. I like things that ignore my defenses. Just so long as they introduce impenetrable mitigation to counter it. Then everyone can stand around, blink at each other, and toss out the odd insult for effect.

Nah.. No Unmitigated Damage In Neverwinter, please.

silverkelt

unmitgated? maybe not, but why not ignore 50% of the persons defense raiting or something instead? There are things you can do to tone down certain effects, without making them pointless builds.

Sadly, all the nerfing and QQing ever does is remove fun things in this game... Shard, Constrictive Arrow, Roar.. instead of toning them down, improving code in pvp (IE 50% functionality or something) all they seem to do most of the time is totally destroy a encounter until its worthless.

Im opposed in general to any changes that curtail functionality of a encounter by such huge margins, its destroying the unique classes.

plavia

what about dice roll from control?
as far as I see it, its the major problem in PVP now

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magiquepurse

magenubbie wrote: »

finisher moves.

The finisher moves hit hard enough with DR considered already. 10-25K Icy Rays and even higher damage Ice Knives are common with geared people.

Whirlwind of Blades hits for 20K. Shocking for huge amounts too, especially if target low. Bull Charge, Anvil, all of these moves can easily go 25K+.

There's no need whatsoever to have the pierce DR as well. The damage scaling from lots of Power (people sporting 6-8K Power in PvP) and buff/debuffs is sufficient, as most geared PvPers are around just 40K HP, with usually only the the G(W)Fs going to 50K HP+.

We have too much damage and too much "finishing" already.

thedemien

Note on why I think Unmitigated Damage is OK. But NOT GOOD in way it is now.

In D&D and D&D games there were 4 of main defenses http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Defense

Armor Class (AC) + from dex or Int and armor ~ deflect and dodge , armor defense.

Fortitude + from Strength and Constitution ~ physical stress, poison, intense pain and other mostly AoE /over time damage
Reflexes + from Dex or Int ~ Many spells and some physical attacks target your reflex defense - so you can deflect them completely or partially in some cases
Will + from Wis and Cha ~ mind effects like Daze or Stun

Most of attack target priority and secondary defense. Most of classes have 2 major defenses.

SO in D&D in general it is ok to have 100% effect of power based on Will on somebody that have only High Fortitude or Reflexes defenses. And this will be considered as high Unmitigated Damage against that one class.

Arm Pen was basically should be targeting Armor Class and Defense from armor while we still other 4.

But in this game we have none of those 4. So on your poll I say yes but not in the way it is now.

PS everybody hates new HRs piercing. And believe me 80% of HR do hate this new HR mod 4 too. I do personally wish that we have changes to mod 3 HR but not this that we got. Like made it + 100% of off hand damage with artifact weapon or bow(only 1 allowed to equip) instead of no-skill piercing.

I do think we need Piercing as Armor Piercing so that 80% defense GWF or any other high regen/defence would not be unkillable kings. But it requires changes to all complexity for all defence type. Cryptic on other side work in way of making everything simpler and 2 button.

mfgamesys

My question was aimed at how in the current state of affairs is 'the current unmitigated damage' something you want to see in neverwinter?

thedemien

mfgamesys wrote: »

My question was aimed at how in the current state of affairs is 'the current unmitigated damage' something you want to see in neverwinter?

No in this case I don't want to see it the way it is now. But getting rid of unmitigated damage just because

... do we fight for a game that respects our defenses. Because with the additions in mod 4 with certain class changes and new overload slot enchants the game has become less about skill and more about how can I apply the most dots and kite my opponent....

is wrong for me too.

bananachef

Unmitigated damage as a game mechanic is usually balanced by underperforming against underarmored opponents. And typically presents a trade-off between doing raw damage vs pure unmitigated damage.

The raw damage value being stronger against unarmored enemies but resisted heavily by armored foes.

While the unmitigated value is lower and weaker against unarmored enemies but cuts through armored foes.

reiwulf

There should be a few attacks that pierces through defenses in order to have a chance against high def guys, but there should be few attacks and definitely not dots or things that proc.

benja32gonsales

bananachef wrote: »

Unmitigated damage as a game mechanic is usually balanced by underperforming against underarmored opponents. And typically presents a trade-off between doing raw damage vs pure unmitigated damage.

The raw damage value being stronger against unarmored enemies but resisted heavily by armored foes.

While the unmitigated value is lower and weaker against unarmored enemies but cuts through armored foes.

The trade-off should be chosen by the guy that try to get a lot of DEF, having a low Damage, that's why I think there should not be Unmitigated damage on NWO, in fact it is already too punishing for the guy who prefers to have a good defense, as you spent a lot of GS on that (and it suffer heavy Dimishing Returns), while power doesn't have a cap.

So please, no more Unmitigated damage!!!.

demonkyuubi

magiquepurse wrote: »

Whirlwind of Blades hits for 20K. Shocking for huge amounts too, especially if target low.

only maxed out rogues hit that hard, but that's not a good argument. anything maxed out can dish out tons of damage regardless. i still see destroyers instant killing someone they catch with indomitable battle strike or if they survive....not with much hp left. then again, maxed out pvpers say they all have 40k hp so dunno how that works out for you all.

most rogues hit 4-12k with those dailies depending on whether it criticals. maybe a little more if they time overrun critical but that's generally it. in fact, i haven't run into a single rogue that hit higher than 12k on me with those dailies and they normally just do 6k non-criticals or so.

do keep in mind that rogues have among the lowest base damage for dailies and no armor pen from stats like gwfs/hunters/warlocks.

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magiquepurse

demonkyuubi wrote: »

only maxed out rogues hit that hard

You should have quoted the rest of my post too, because it seems I am singling out TRs from your post, which I am not, I've mentioned CWs, GFs and yes GWFs are right there as well. HR doesn't have huge numbers but the DoTs/Procs accumulate extremely fast too.

The whole idea is that even with 40K+ HP, there is too much damage going on, even without the glyphs. Yes, I am talking about BiS vs BiS. Non BiS 13K GS people with lessers should never, ever see PvP with/against BiS players.

So there's no need to have lots of finishers, there are too many already.

Tenacity was introduced to end one-rotation fights. At the moment, even without glyphs, a few classes can perform one rotation kills, especially with a daily up.

As for TR, of course the class needs solid damage as a striker. With the new gear and the switch to P. Vorpal, a TR has the opportunity to dish out some nasty damage, while still being almost all the time in stealth or ITC. But keep in mind, my post is NOT about TR, is about finisher moves in general, of which I don't wanna see more.

demonkyuubi

magiquepurse wrote: »

You should have quoted the rest of my post too, because it seems I am singling out TRs from your post, which I am not, I've mentioned CWs, GFs and yes GWFs are right there as well. HR doesn't have huge numbers but the DoTs/Procs accumulate extremely fast too.

The whole idea is that even with 40K+ HP, there is too much damage going on, even without the glyphs. Yes, I am talking about BiS vs BiS. Non BiS 13K GS people with lessers should never, ever see PvP with/against BiS players.

So there's no need to have lots of finishers, there are too many already.

Tenacity was introduced to end one-rotation fights. At the moment, even without glyphs, a few classes can perform one rotation kills, especially with a daily up.

As for TR, of course the class needs solid damage as a striker. With the new gear and the switch to P. Vorpal, a TR has the opportunity to dish out some nasty damage, while still being almost all the time in stealth or ITC. But keep in mind, my post is NOT about TR, is about finisher moves in general, of which I don't wanna see more.

i simply can't speak for wizards/gwf's/hunters/gf's since i don't have them or geared up at the least.

what i was trying to say is that rogue dps just doesn't compare to other classes. my 14k warlock has 2 dailies with near 14k base damage at 4.2k power and that can probably compete with even a maxed out rogue's daily for dps. 15% severity from feats, easily gain 14% armor pen from a stat, and 20% damage buff on cursed targets (30% if fury).

i actually envy the other dailies simply because they are far far stronger than a rogue's daily.

but yeah, i'm actually wondering how cryptic can even deal with the problems of a rogue's dps + stealth because it's gonna take a miracle for us to be properly balanced

edit: my bad, got curse damage mixed up >.<

grogthemagnif

As a DND player, I absolutely agree. As an MMO player I don't have enough experience in enough genres to make that decision.

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

Absolutely not! This is a game based on dice rolls and everything having a counter. There should not be any damage that cannot be defended/ blocked/ dodged/ or absorbed. Period!

oicidraz

grogthemagnif wrote: »

As a DND player, I absolutely agree. As an MMO player I don't have enough experience in enough genres to make that decision.

In my case, on the few MMOs I've played there is no such thing, the closest mechanic I can tell is a weapon that did a scalable damage depending on the enemie's defense.

I don't get why we have Unmitigated Damage In Neverwinter.

grogthemagnif

1. You block it by 'The Mr. Miyagi Rule' - "Not be there."

2. Plate has about a half dozen weaknesses, Scale has hundreds of weak points and yet they are the same AC - go figure. Then again, they are the same AC because "It's just a game."

magenubbie wrote: »

How do you block a 4x damage multiplier from a stealthed TR?

As for the OP:
Yes and no.
Yes, armors have weaknesses and should be able to get penetrated/ignored. No armor offers 100% protection all over your body. Even a full plate has weak spots.
Should it be so widly available that the game evolves around ignoring armor/defenses? No. It should be there, but sparingly. Things like IK, SE and the like should offer some penetration. You know.. finisher moves. Should it be on basic encounter skills? uhm.. no, unless triggered in special circumstances that require skill/coincidence to pull off. The exact % is debatable, but better left to the devs to decide since they have the numbers.

marc8219

I don't mind it nearly as much as all the constant stun, prone, and disable spam there is out there. Fix some of that stuff first before nerfing any damage sources, in some games the spam is so much you need all the extra damage you can get to get kills before you are perma locked. Don't blame people for using this stuff, its all the people spamming holds that are causing us to fight back.

If I can't take my shield down for 1 second without a GWF or CW trying to spam their stupid stuns on me I will find a way to leave it up and fight anyway, if that is taken away, tone the stuns/prones/disables down.

zshikara

magenubbie wrote: »

How do you block a 4x damage multiplier from a stealthed TR?

In D&D its supposed to use your flatfooted AC to determine if it hits or not, but in Neverwinter we don't really have any sort of defense against it, and that needs to change as well.

yoadoad

zshikara wrote: »

In D&D its supposed to use your flatfooted AC to determine if it hits or not, but in Neverwinter we don't really have any sort of defense against it, and that needs to change as well.

...But this is not D&D. In D&D AC isn't damage reduction, it's either hit or miss... And in this game the closest thing to "hit or miss" is deflect. And you can deflect attacks from stealth just like you deflect normal attacks. So if anything, deflection chance against stealth opponents should go down...

gudgeonator

My DC would be happier with unmitigated damage if ... oh .... I don't know .... and I'm just throwing this out there of course as a random completely selfish game breaking desire naturally ..... she had unmitigated self-healing?

twilightwatchman

oicidraz wrote: »

In my case, on the few MMOs I've played there is no such thing, the closest mechanic I can tell is a weapon that did a scalable damage depending on the enemie's defense.

I don't get why we have Unmitigated Damage In Neverwinter.

Because it was a fast-and-dirty way to 'fix' low damage issues on a couple of classes when what SHOULD have happened was a rework of base weapon damage and/or encounters. It's that simple. You only have to follow the Feedback threads for the HR and CW on Preview to see how the development decisions were made.

The Devs didn't have the time/resources to properly address the issues raised by the changes introduced in Mod 4 and came up with unmitigated damage as a 'quick fix'. It's that simple. So my guess is that it'll be around for a while.

emilemo

Everything must get filtered thru our defences before hitting our HP. No Deflect from 'Proned' is enough.

ryugasirius

What is the point in stacking defense if it is useless against most damage...? I agree there can be some very specific powers/paths that sacrifice some damage to get armor piercing, but that should never be the case with boons/enchantments that are available to everyone.

lucifron44

Unmitigated damage belongs to MMOs. Now of course it becomes a hazard, in the hands of devs who can't balance anything.

ripyourlipsoff

If unmitigated cannot be stopped, and it is going to continue to be allowed then it needs to have a limited amount of damage based on targets Hp! Its moronic to have such an attack that cannot be stopped?


If thats the case then people need immunity bubbles to counter it!

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