How do you keep smolder up then? Scorching burst? But the AOE is small and the target limit is low.
Hm, I have no trouble freezing or stunning things, and the debuff is pretty nice (swath, terror etc...), but with low crit it's hard to apply smolder.
Tanky? Probably, but I Hate hate hate wiping and i hate dying almost as much.
Oppressor, you give up a lot of damage for just a little control. It seems somewhat sub optimal for me, honestly. Not efficient.
When using Combustive Action and Swath of Destruction all your dailies will add Smolder regardless of critical strikes (I.E. Oppressive Force). This is an uncapped target ability.
Then, Icy Terrain will constantly refresh the duration of Terror, Smolder w/ Swath (through Rimefire), and to a lesser extent HV with follow up encounters. This is also an uncapped target ability.
Dying targets return large portions of AP, plus the DC artifact, plus normal AP gain and you should easily keep all of this running on...everything. (Keep in mind though CA is for instant-infinte-smolder not necessarily AP gain. The AP is a happy side effect and helps drive OF.)
It might even be overkill on AP but what are you going to possibly throw after an Oppressive Force that would do more damage, control, or refresh x3 HV stacks on that many things anywhere near as quickly as another Oppressive Force? What you want is snap debuff and uncapped abilities and this stacks it fast on any number of things.
Oppressor may, or may not, be able to recast Icy Terrain enough to carry all three HV stacks but it will at least hold it at one stack consistantly regardless of feating. (And frankly I don't know if a follow up cast add's a second stack at all.)
So, ultimately, with a play style like yours that concentrates on opening with Oppressive Force on super-large add pull's you could be debuffing more while retaining all of your survivability. EF on Tab while wearing HV set is actually a rather large buff to defense which may, or may not, be useful but the grouping effect is hard to ignore for a control minded player who wants to maximize their teams damage. It should also be considered that EF will effecitvely 'clean up' the spread from Oppressive Force while also buffing the next Oppressive Force you fire by 15% in both damage and CC through Arcane Mastery.
What sucks in the Oppressor tree is the cap and losing FTP/EE/Assailant from Thaum. Yes, you absolutely lose out in damage but you keep talking about how team damage is what you're all about. In all fairness I understand not giving up all your personal damage but I would also not consider your build debuff, buff, control, or damage oriented but rather survival oriented that takes a bit from all catagories while specializing in none of them. Not saying that's bad it's just a generalist approach.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
Yeah, i was thinking about your comments over night.
I think internally, I hate hate hate hate hate being a weak link. If we are going to wipe it is NOT going to be my fault.
So I control really well, not as well as oppressor of course, but it's really good control.
I also damage pretty well, not as good as the SS/Thaum, but the damage is really quite good.
and then i survive really well, not as good as an actual GF/GWF, but way better than most CWs.
I guess when i try to improve what i do is probably grow my weakest category and end up with a very balanced character. If i need to fufil any role in a party, I can do it, with very few exceptions.
I do think i'ts important to calculate team DPS, which is important. I just feel that giving up the Thaum tree, which is tremendous damage, for the oppressor tree, which is a little more control, is really inefficient.
This chain OF style might really work too, but it's certainly not how i built things for myself. I do, however, like having your responses here so other people can think about when they make their character.
I think what i find frustrating is when people talk about how DPS is everything - it's not. And when debuffing isn't a CW job - i think it's everyone's job, and when CW stack power to the sky but get one shot by so many things, I just think that's not the intelligent way to build a character. I like balanced, flexible builds.
Really an interesting observation on your party though I think back when sing was not nerfed it was easier to max team DPS, but now with lower target caps we are forced to use OF for big pulls - Sing and FI don't cut it anymore - which isn't gathering like we'd all like them to bee.
Is EF really better than conduit? You give up a lot of damage and chill stacks to pull five mobs together. If it was 15 mobs, I could see it, but 5? It's such a small part of the pull. Target cap is too low to give up the damage and chill, at least it seems to me.
Focused Wizardry does not work on all smolder ticks. Smolder is not a "target" ability, but rather a class feat ability. Therefore, anything effecting smolder will only do so as a result of an effect on the spell which proc'd smolder. For example, if smolder is proc'd from Magic Missile or Ray of Frost, FW will increase its damage. If however it's proc'd from conduit, icy terrain, or steal time, smolder will LOSE damage based on FW.
As a note, for some reason the other posts after the FW question didn't show up until after I posted this, so apologies if I seem a day late. XD
Spacejaw, I think you're onto something with SB. I actually started using it as my 2nd at will yesterday just to see how I like it, and it does work pretty well. I still try to throw Chilling Cloud for the FPT, and chill stacks, but I've noticed that SB procs my lightning enchant insanely, and with my build as it is, that equates to a lot of damage. I think I'm gonna keep running it for a bit and see how I like it long term, but so far it's working out pretty well.
And Chem, I totally agree on the Oppressor vs Thaum thing. Losing so much damage to gain such a small amount of control isn't worth it. I have high recovery and can keep a mob frozen nearly indefinitely, unless I get proned. Thaum can manage amazing control and damage.
I'm going to say, right up front, that using EF on Tab means that you are going to do less damage and freeze things slower. Absolutely, those are both true.
Firstly, EF as a team utility tool.
EF is the single most powerful tool to drive Arcane Mastery there is. Bar none. Period. In a target rich environment, with the right set, it shines at keeping things bunched up for easy team AoE application on maximum numbers of targets while making everything else the CW does better.
1) EF Proc's x3 Defense stacks of High Vizier. This is a large bump to defense, making up for the lost defense stat attached to the HV set.
2) EF Instantly gains the CW x5 Arcane Mastery stacks. Arcane Mastery bumps the damage of all Arcane spells by 15%, and extends/improves many of the Arcane spells CC components. Arcane Mastery also bumps Smolder damage by 15% for MoF. Of course, this also bumps the damage of Oppressive Force by 15% on top of the x3 debuff from High Vizier's.
3) It gathers anywhere from 5-10 targets into it's primary target. It's difficult to get an exact number, and there is definitely a cap to the pull. As Oppressor you can pull in things more often, and keep those stacks of AM/Chill longer. This, interestingly enough, makes the pull from EF stronger as well with those AM stacks.
But, y'know, since no one actually cares about grouping, team synergy, or crowd control few people use EF on Tab. This is one of the myriad reasons that I don't believe any CW when they say they build for team efficiency when I see that they are never, or rarely, using tabbed EF or any other team synergy options I outline in my posts. Grouping and positioning is the #1 thing a CW can do to aid in team damage. If you decide to go that route my only advice is the same as yours: Stop looking at paingiver at all. Period. You won't register on it. Sadly, it seems to me that you aren't following your own advice here.
My last point is basically a real downer.
I respec'ced back into MoF because I assumed that the Spellstorm two-shot freeze would go the way of the dinosaur with the performance I was seeing from it. Since that did not happen, you can expect me to spec back into Spellstorm within the month. I have tested MoF every which way from Sunday and I can emphatically say that it under performs Spellstorms in every available class role. (I have spent an ungodly amount of AD/Zen doing these tests on live as well. This is because the only valid test of a build is live fire in my mind. This is not 'theory'.)
The 15% debuff from Swath and a Terror enchantment does not justify the lack of damage or the lack of snap control in my mind. You could run a Plaguefire as Spellstorm and come very close to the debuff from a Terror/Swath if you wanted to, but I don't see many people going that way since there isn't a reason to do so. It would also still do more damage than a MoF.
Or, to put it another way, the trade off on debuff is higher for a Spellstorm than it is for a MoF because Spellstorm already does the highest possible AoE damage. Since MoF can not achieve that plateau MoF players search around for an equally valid role and are having a lot of difficulty finding one that doesn't involve simply over-gearing given content or trying to point at an arbitrary amount of Spellstorm damage that they can claim as 'theirs' through debuff.
None of this is intended to detract from this guide. It's a good thing that this is out there and I still appreciate all of your time spent on it. It's just hard to view MoF in a vacuum compared to what equally geared and skilled Spellstorms are capable of doing.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
I had a guild mate just make a similar point about EF on tab - arcane mastery, grouping, etc.
When they nerfed the AP gain I (like everyone else) switched to conduit on tab, and yes, they move around more so they are less grouped and grouping really does help team DPS and i can't argue with that.
Thing is, at least in most groups I'm playing in, things just die too fast. If i ever play in a 5 man group, we just mow through everything so quickly that this extra control is simply unnecessary. What good is an entagling force when the mobs are dead so quickly? then what if you pull 40-50 adds, EF doesn't do the same work conduit does there either - because of damage and chill and refreshing smolder, conduit is really amazing.
Not saying I don't understand the argument, but it hasn't been practical for the way we've been playing, more or less since they gave us artifacts.
That said, I don't think it's invalid either. If you are actually pulling one group at a time and you can gather the mobs and blow them up - that is actually awesome! Its just things are dying so incredibly quickly right now.
Respecing to spell storm is fine, man. Go ahead. They are really good right now, and i don't mean to take away from that. I think the chill + sudden feat is a bit OP as it adds control to a spell that can only be balanced if it has no control.
I think a lot of it is playstyle. I played spellstorm before, and i have a second CW too, and there were things I really didn't like:
1) As a spellstorm i was too squishy. HV set is great, but it doesn't have enough defense.
2) I always disliked sudden storm, still dislike sudden storm. It's really not my style at all.
3) The DoTs really work well with how i play, in terms of doting and kiting and moving around. I certainly enjoy it.
I'm not sure that swath + terror is not as good as the burst of spellstorm. It's very hard to tell because the game logs do not parse debuffs the way i would love them to. Am i doing a lot of work for the group by running swath and terror? Absolutely. Is it as good as sudden storm and vorpal? hard to tell. Personally i think the reason that combo looks so good is the amount of trash killing that goes on in a clear. I suspect the debuff is better for bosses.
Anyway, I don't mind the criticism or the way you're outlining to play, but I thought about it. Should I give up 30-40% of my damage for more control which we obviously don't need anyway? It seems that's not an efficent way to play. I really think COI on Tab + thaum feats >> EF on tab + opressor feats. If EF had a higher target cap, i could change my mind, but 5 mobs just simply isn't enough to matter right now.
The way people are clearing CN or T2s is by fighting 20-30 mobs at once, using massive AOE and debuff to melt them all. The bar i am running certainly seems more effective for that situation.
Could I play the slower group, by group way? yes, of course, I did that for months, but until we get content that is actually challenging there is no need for it.
When the situation is appropriate, i really _love_ grouping with furious immolation. Wish it had a higher target cap (but then it would be OP).
kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
edited October 2014
For all the charm of Conduit, it has a limitation, it needs time to act. To take full advantage of it, things need to live long enough around the primary target for it to matter. For me, CoI is no better that Chill Strike in a quick kill mass mob situation.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
For all the charm of Conduit, it has a limitation, it needs time to act. To take full advantage of it, things need to live long enough around the primary target for it to matter. For me, CoI is no better that Chill Strike in a quick kill mass mob situation.
The point is to make sure conduit hits the strongest mob in the group, then let your other, softer AOEs take care of the trash. Targeting is really important to use COI effectively.
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited October 2014
This is a REALLY nice writeup.... although I am a SS CW and as you have said I find it awkward playing the MoF it is just too different. Still though, I can appreciate a well written guide, with obvious evidence to back it up, even if I personally will never be playing it Heck, I even went to the effort of reading it, just for the sake of curiosity.
Thing is, at least in most groups I'm playing in, things just die too fast. If i ever play in a 5 man group, we just mow through everything so quickly that this extra control is simply unnecessary. What good is an entagling force when the mobs are dead so quickly? then what if you pull 40-50 adds, EF doesn't do the same work conduit does there either - because of damage and chill and refreshing smolder, conduit is really amazing.
The Control Wizard is (shockingly, surprisingly) a controller. Your first and foremost job is to control the mobs so you and your team can be safe and DPS effectively.
What good is CoI if things are dying so quickly is the counter argument. Freeze? No. Damage? No. You just negated your own argument. EF works regardless of how quickly they die whereas CoI does not. Icy Terrain will refresh any smolder by itself.
The only thing I can determine is that content is so simple that there is absolutely no reason to optimize anything anymore. Once you reach 15-18k GS you're at diminishing returns on virtually every stat that could make a difference. There is no content that will provide any sort of challenge what-so-ever. Ergo, at that point, play what is fun. (And MoF can definitely be fun!)
All I can really say is that I'd suggest at least logging into Preview and trying out the following:
Slot EotS/Storm Spell.
Slot EF in Tab.
Slot Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Icy Terrain.
Open with EF, Oppressive Force, IT, Sudden Storm, Steal Time.
Even though people will rightly point out this is a suboptimal damage rotation, it still runs laps around MoF damage while keeping things locked down and applying both DoT and spike damage. There's no need to run around dodging like a chicken with it's head cut off if everything is frozen or dead.
And, again, there is no difference in survival between MoF or Spellstorm. It's all in your head mate. I would literally give you the AD to respec on live to try it but I know you wouldn't go for it. Storm Spell does more damage than Smolder, and with EotS Elemental Empowerment and Terrain crit for their entire duration every time. Tie on Endless Consumption and you are just as immortal as a MoF in heavy add clears.
MoF can do well enough, but ironically it can only do so when things live a long time. If they do not live a long time, then MoF actually could be said to do nothing at all since every single last bit of it's damage is a DoT that never gets time to work. This is bar none the reason why I intend on getting out of MoF. They have given every single last one of it's advantages to Spellstorm while still keeping most of the extreme efficiency that it had before. (Well, minus 200k crits anyway.)
If Cryptic decided to make FtF do full damage to all 8 targets instead of half, or uncap it's target limit like Storm Spell, it would have a chance. Sadly, since this isn't the case, there is no chance for it. For that matter, FtF should be AoE as a regular encounter or in Tab. FtF vs. Sudden Storm is no contest no matter how you change things around.
Man, I really sound harsh sometimes. It's all just a discussion though. While I think one option is, in fact, superior in all ways MoF still performs better than my HR, GWF, and TR in the damage department so ultimately it's a pretty moot argument ^_^
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
Oh yeah man, I know. I play the way i like to play, and honestly i absolutely _love_ how my MOF plays. I can't tell you how much I enjoy my CW and I wouldn't want to change a single thing about her.
I've only heard good feedback from my build, right? Though it's a guide because I know Carla developed her own build (which is very effective, seen it in action) and your build seems like it would work too.
With COI - you want to hit the elite in the group, the AOE maintains smolder and chill on the weaker mobs. Honestly I tend to just target the big mobs and let the little ones die as they go along. When I run ACT, COI is actually my highest damage encounter.
Agree on fanning the flame - this spell is a bit underwhelming now. Why did they nerf it anyway? PvP whiners? I don't get the reasoning.
In the last week i've soloed: CT, CC, Idris, MD, GWD, FH, PK, (couldn't kill Syndyth), and Kaurrundax, all at epic, and honestly, it wasn't even that hard. I mean, yes it was hard but, it wasn't insurmountable.
I guess, I look at my CW. The stats are really efficent. The damage is plenty for all situations, they control is plenty for all situations, the survavibility is plenty for all situations, and even doing 5 man content solo isn't that hard - so there's no real incentive for me to change personally.
However, that's why it's a guide and not a build, right? I feel most of the builds on here is "this is how i melt everything with my super OP, super geared toon." I worked hard to avoid that and give players options.
What I really appreciate about your options is not that i'd want to do them personally, but maybe someone reads this, and that person says "oh, spacejew's idea sounds really cool, i'm going to try it out." They obviously have different gear and play in different groups than me, they try your playstyle, it works well, and they are very happy.
So even though we get into these arguments, i really do respect and value your contribution. After all, if we _all_ did the same thing, how could we learn anything?
So yeah, +1. If anyone tries your setup on live (which might be really effective for teams together at moderate GS, like most of the server), let me know how it works out. Post in the forums, give feedback, etc... I appreciate it.
I think the bias about survivability here, might be because many spellstorm players play not to have efficient stat distribution, but rather to max DPS, hence there are a lot of SS glass cannons out there. I think glass cannon builds are inherently inefficient, personally, and I don't do them on any of my toons. Some SS who are more balanced can be very durable.
First of all, great work, chem! Some really interesting points in it, I didn't know about focused wizardry so far, it's really a bit strange.
I can pretty much confirm coi being the highest damage encounter for me, too, just did a DV test run and according to ACT it did more damage than shard, IT or ST. An interesting sidenote is, that 60% of my damage was done by passives like rimefire, smolder, assailant, creeping frost, terror enchant....
Did you notice that FTP only seems to work when there are multiple targets hit? Just realized it while fighting the brain and getting no stacks. Don't know if it is bugged or shall work this way.
I absolutely agree that there is not one "the best build", if you don't feel comfortable with what you have, you probably don't play as well as you could. Yes to a build has to fit one's play style.
Personally I like tanky chars and playing a bit like an offtank, even as a CW. Standing in red and not necessarily having to dodge everything is something I love about my CW. Playing a glass cannon may work fine for others, too, but surely not for me.
Nice job, Chemboy613. Very nice guide with lots and lots of good stuff in there. I've done a lot of testing and investigation into game mechanics myself. I'll go through and offer some tips/adjustments on things I've found.
First, Learned Spellcaster has the following formula:
Bonus Damage multiplier = ((Intelligence-10)/100+1)*(Ranks in Learned Spellcaster)
So if you have 24 Intelligence and 5 ranks in Learned Spellcaster it will increase all outgoing damage by 5.7%. Which is quite nice.
Also they buffed Shield in Module 4. Descriptions here:
When on spell mastery damage is reduced by 80% first hit, 65% second hit, then 25% even when it is destabilized. When not on spell mastery it reduces damage by 50% then 25% when destabilized. The permanent 25% damage resistance is pretty handy in places like Epic Lair of Lostmauth, and Epic Shores of Tuern, or when trying to solo difficult to survive dungeons.
The High Vizier armor set has not been nerfed. This is easy to test. Go onto the preview server and clear all feats and boons. Use steal time on a test dummy. Use ACT--without the High Vizier set bonus the effectiveness of the damage will be 100%. With the High Vizier set bonus the effectiveness is 130%.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
Hey abaddon - First of all i want to thank you for your studies on CW mechanics. They're useful and great reading to any of us CWs who play seriously, and I really appreciate the great work!
I want to know has anything changed since those studies? Such as interactions with the assistant feat, or MOF spells, etc... I'd like to know if you've done any work on that.
I have seen a lot of people use shield in ESOT and ELOL - especially ESOT because he seems to just one shot you and it's very hard to dodge. That said I think it's more efficient to build balanced and have that last encounter slot free for something more active.
When you have time, i'd really appreciate your feedback. Thanks for the hard work,
The guide I wrote on CW powers is badly outdated. It was written before Module 3. Since then power damage has been completely re-worked and all of the damage formulas have been changed. So, yeah. Everything in there should be taken with a huge grain of salt. I don't know if I will go back and update it at this point. Testing can be very time consuming and, frankly, playing is more fun.
Such as interactions with the assistant feat, or MOF spells, etc
I think you mean Assailant? The way Assailant damage works is it triggers on most damage (sometimes at-wills don't trigger it) and has a 5 second cooldown. So it really doesn't matter if you are running a DoT build or a spike damage build as long as you are attacking without many breaks it will do the same damage. It's brainless and can't really be improved or worsened with your build.
I'm one of those people who uses Shield in eSoT. I have to when there's no GF. I'm an aggro magnet on the boss and with several of his attacks requiring dodges (like the fireball that will hit you if you walk out of the AoE even if you're no longer in the red area, and the knives) I can run out of stamina really quick. Then I take knives to the face. With shield on I can survive that, let my stamina build back up, lifesteal my way back to full health and keep going. Without shield I'm wiping left and right. That doesn't happen so much in good groups because he'll target other people on occasion giving me some time to rebuild stamina. But I like a challenge so I frequently just join random queues to see what kind of a mess they're in and if I can help get them out.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
Ah, i see. Personally i don't mind shield that much in ESOT or ELOL because the damage is so hard.
For those people who are running shield on tab against dwarves in IWD? Basically my thought is L2Play time. Seriously?
I've been running my GF through ESOT/ELOL recently because my CW has so much RAD, so if I am making a DD party or something, feel free to join.
Some people have been saying that using IT or ROF will proc assailant more often than chilling cloud or a damage encounter, but with a 5s ICD, this is basically BS. Thanks for clearing that up. My intuition was something along those lines.
I think the bias about survivability here, might be because many spellstorm players play not to have efficient stat distribution, but rather to max DPS, hence there are a lot of SS glass cannons out there. I think glass cannon builds are inherently inefficient, personally, and I don't do them on any of my toons. Some SS who are more balanced can be very durable.
The thing is there is absolutely nothing stopping a Spellstorm from using the exact same stat distribution while still doing more X, Y, and Z.
I will however concede one thing and that is that a critical Icy Terrain is basically the source of all damage and survival for a MoF. It's almost silly how everything the Master of Flame build does is primarily centered around that one single ice power instead of Fanning the Flame. You are basically immortal off a single critical IT. The Dracolich, or anything, can take my HP to 5% and I am instantly back to 100% from that. (Although Elemental Empowerment and Storm Spell do much the same thing. Smolder is the smallest damage out of all of them even with Swath. Even if it's more reliable it's meh.)
The theory behind Fanning the Flame being bad is the exact same one as CoI being bad. I wouldn't take it quite that far, because CoI isn't actually 'bad' except in certain very high GS groups doing low gear content but the extra CD and damage reduction on FtF is...pretty terrible. Combined with it's requirement to be on Tab to get any use at all out of it and you're left with the MoF being designed around single-target damage with some AoE. In most content that is...not ideal to say the least.
The best thing about MoF is simple really. It can engage it's single-target damage from further away than Spellstorm and can simply ride it's DoT encounter damage without bothering with at-wills.
I just think that MoF survivability is overrated because no one played GF for quite a long time so survivability was somewhat needed. Now, with GF being able to actually hold threat and consistantly increase survivability I'd rather just build for damage and play off their debuff/buff. There are other classes that are a real value added in that department in that their buffs will peg your mitigation without any added Defense stat from my gear. DC, for instance.
Just like a GF that rigs entirely for damage is terrible, in my mind so is a CW that rigs entirely for debuff or 'tanking'. GF, for instance, will get far more use off a Terror. KV proc's it on anything that even touches you or your group. Just saying. I like efficiency, and while the groups I end up in might or might not have a GF or DC if it's a serious attempt I simply won't go without a more balanced party composition anymore. The utility from those classes is finally useful enough to wait for one before trying.
Basically, if everyone on your team played like a min/max player to the strength's of their class the CW doesn't need more mitigation from gear because it is so incredibly easy to be pegged at 80% mitigation all the time with the absolute lowest mitigation on gear you can possibly get. That, to me, is incredibly hard to ignore.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
Spacejew - your line of thought was continued in another thread, where i think it belongs. I followed up there, not here
UPDATE: Updated notes in heroic feats, thanks to Stox for his help.
My CW has been shelfed for a while, too much RAD. I do gearing runs once in a while for people in legit.
Man - what a writeup. This makes me wanna run my CW and not just use him as a professions mule.
Very nice Chemboy!! I don't think you could have been more informative if you wanted to.
+100
Thanks a lot man
I've been thinking about it, what's not in here is things like timing and positioning and awareness. How we actually fight. When exactly to use what spells, how to kite and spin your camera, etc..
But that's something that you have to be in combat for. You could possibly talk someone through it on voice, but i have no idea how to communicate that in a guide.
Oh yeah man, CWs are great. Nice thing is that once you have enough gear to not die instantly, you can help the team with control. if you could say, keep swath of destruction up and control well, your teammates will love you.
I would say don't worry about damage to start, as you gear up the DPS will come. Eventually you will be dishing it out great
Smolder is the smallest damage out of all of them even with Swath. Even if it's more reliable it's meh.
Just to clear things up.
In an ACT parse, Smolder will show up near the bottom of the list. But that is because nearly all of the Smolder will have been converted into Rimefire Smolder by chill stacks. Because there are chill stacks all over the place. And Rimefire Smolder is *huge*. It will be near the top of any ACT parse.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
In an ACT parse, Smolder will show up near the bottom of the list. But that is because nearly all of the Smolder will have been converted into Rimefire Smolder by chill stacks. Because there are chill stacks all over the place. And Rimefire Smolder is *huge*. It will be near the top of any ACT parse.
In many situations, rimfire smolder is close to 25% and smolder is about 5% for my logs.
Also points, have you noticed smolder has an unusually high crit%? my rimefire crits 60% or so.
Comments
Hm, I have no trouble freezing or stunning things, and the debuff is pretty nice (swath, terror etc...), but with low crit it's hard to apply smolder.
Tanky? Probably, but I Hate hate hate wiping and i hate dying almost as much.
Oppressor, you give up a lot of damage for just a little control. It seems somewhat sub optimal for me, honestly. Not efficient.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
When using Combustive Action and Swath of Destruction all your dailies will add Smolder regardless of critical strikes (I.E. Oppressive Force). This is an uncapped target ability.
Then, Icy Terrain will constantly refresh the duration of Terror, Smolder w/ Swath (through Rimefire), and to a lesser extent HV with follow up encounters. This is also an uncapped target ability.
Dying targets return large portions of AP, plus the DC artifact, plus normal AP gain and you should easily keep all of this running on...everything. (Keep in mind though CA is for instant-infinte-smolder not necessarily AP gain. The AP is a happy side effect and helps drive OF.)
It might even be overkill on AP but what are you going to possibly throw after an Oppressive Force that would do more damage, control, or refresh x3 HV stacks on that many things anywhere near as quickly as another Oppressive Force? What you want is snap debuff and uncapped abilities and this stacks it fast on any number of things.
Oppressor may, or may not, be able to recast Icy Terrain enough to carry all three HV stacks but it will at least hold it at one stack consistantly regardless of feating. (And frankly I don't know if a follow up cast add's a second stack at all.)
So, ultimately, with a play style like yours that concentrates on opening with Oppressive Force on super-large add pull's you could be debuffing more while retaining all of your survivability. EF on Tab while wearing HV set is actually a rather large buff to defense which may, or may not, be useful but the grouping effect is hard to ignore for a control minded player who wants to maximize their teams damage. It should also be considered that EF will effecitvely 'clean up' the spread from Oppressive Force while also buffing the next Oppressive Force you fire by 15% in both damage and CC through Arcane Mastery.
What sucks in the Oppressor tree is the cap and losing FTP/EE/Assailant from Thaum. Yes, you absolutely lose out in damage but you keep talking about how team damage is what you're all about. In all fairness I understand not giving up all your personal damage but I would also not consider your build debuff, buff, control, or damage oriented but rather survival oriented that takes a bit from all catagories while specializing in none of them. Not saying that's bad it's just a generalist approach.
I think internally, I hate hate hate hate hate being a weak link. If we are going to wipe it is NOT going to be my fault.
So I control really well, not as well as oppressor of course, but it's really good control.
I also damage pretty well, not as good as the SS/Thaum, but the damage is really quite good.
and then i survive really well, not as good as an actual GF/GWF, but way better than most CWs.
I guess when i try to improve what i do is probably grow my weakest category and end up with a very balanced character. If i need to fufil any role in a party, I can do it, with very few exceptions.
I do think i'ts important to calculate team DPS, which is important. I just feel that giving up the Thaum tree, which is tremendous damage, for the oppressor tree, which is a little more control, is really inefficient.
This chain OF style might really work too, but it's certainly not how i built things for myself. I do, however, like having your responses here so other people can think about when they make their character.
I think what i find frustrating is when people talk about how DPS is everything - it's not. And when debuffing isn't a CW job - i think it's everyone's job, and when CW stack power to the sky but get one shot by so many things, I just think that's not the intelligent way to build a character. I like balanced, flexible builds.
Really an interesting observation on your party though
Is EF really better than conduit? You give up a lot of damage and chill stacks to pull five mobs together. If it was 15 mobs, I could see it, but 5? It's such a small part of the pull. Target cap is too low to give up the damage and chill, at least it seems to me.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
As a note, for some reason the other posts after the FW question didn't show up until after I posted this, so apologies if I seem a day late. XD
And Chem, I totally agree on the Oppressor vs Thaum thing. Losing so much damage to gain such a small amount of control isn't worth it. I have high recovery and can keep a mob frozen nearly indefinitely, unless I get proned. Thaum can manage amazing control and damage.
Calra, i double checked my logs from soloing. My smolder average is about 20-25% higher with the FW feat instead of without it.
I originally would have thought like you, or thought it wouldn't matter at all, but the logs say FW = more smolder damage.
I don't know why, personally I do think it's strange.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Firstly, EF as a team utility tool.
EF is the single most powerful tool to drive Arcane Mastery there is. Bar none. Period. In a target rich environment, with the right set, it shines at keeping things bunched up for easy team AoE application on maximum numbers of targets while making everything else the CW does better.
1) EF Proc's x3 Defense stacks of High Vizier. This is a large bump to defense, making up for the lost defense stat attached to the HV set.
2) EF Instantly gains the CW x5 Arcane Mastery stacks. Arcane Mastery bumps the damage of all Arcane spells by 15%, and extends/improves many of the Arcane spells CC components. Arcane Mastery also bumps Smolder damage by 15% for MoF. Of course, this also bumps the damage of Oppressive Force by 15% on top of the x3 debuff from High Vizier's.
3) It gathers anywhere from 5-10 targets into it's primary target. It's difficult to get an exact number, and there is definitely a cap to the pull. As Oppressor you can pull in things more often, and keep those stacks of AM/Chill longer. This, interestingly enough, makes the pull from EF stronger as well with those AM stacks.
But, y'know, since no one actually cares about grouping, team synergy, or crowd control few people use EF on Tab. This is one of the myriad reasons that I don't believe any CW when they say they build for team efficiency when I see that they are never, or rarely, using tabbed EF or any other team synergy options I outline in my posts. Grouping and positioning is the #1 thing a CW can do to aid in team damage. If you decide to go that route my only advice is the same as yours: Stop looking at paingiver at all. Period. You won't register on it. Sadly, it seems to me that you aren't following your own advice here.
My last point is basically a real downer.
I respec'ced back into MoF because I assumed that the Spellstorm two-shot freeze would go the way of the dinosaur with the performance I was seeing from it. Since that did not happen, you can expect me to spec back into Spellstorm within the month. I have tested MoF every which way from Sunday and I can emphatically say that it under performs Spellstorms in every available class role. (I have spent an ungodly amount of AD/Zen doing these tests on live as well. This is because the only valid test of a build is live fire in my mind. This is not 'theory'.)
The 15% debuff from Swath and a Terror enchantment does not justify the lack of damage or the lack of snap control in my mind. You could run a Plaguefire as Spellstorm and come very close to the debuff from a Terror/Swath if you wanted to, but I don't see many people going that way since there isn't a reason to do so. It would also still do more damage than a MoF.
Or, to put it another way, the trade off on debuff is higher for a Spellstorm than it is for a MoF because Spellstorm already does the highest possible AoE damage. Since MoF can not achieve that plateau MoF players search around for an equally valid role and are having a lot of difficulty finding one that doesn't involve simply over-gearing given content or trying to point at an arbitrary amount of Spellstorm damage that they can claim as 'theirs' through debuff.
None of this is intended to detract from this guide. It's a good thing that this is out there and I still appreciate all of your time spent on it. It's just hard to view MoF in a vacuum compared to what equally geared and skilled Spellstorms are capable of doing.
When they nerfed the AP gain I (like everyone else) switched to conduit on tab, and yes, they move around more so they are less grouped and grouping really does help team DPS and i can't argue with that.
Thing is, at least in most groups I'm playing in, things just die too fast. If i ever play in a 5 man group, we just mow through everything so quickly that this extra control is simply unnecessary. What good is an entagling force when the mobs are dead so quickly? then what if you pull 40-50 adds, EF doesn't do the same work conduit does there either - because of damage and chill and refreshing smolder, conduit is really amazing.
Not saying I don't understand the argument, but it hasn't been practical for the way we've been playing, more or less since they gave us artifacts.
That said, I don't think it's invalid either. If you are actually pulling one group at a time and you can gather the mobs and blow them up - that is actually awesome! Its just things are dying so incredibly quickly right now.
Respecing to spell storm is fine, man. Go ahead. They are really good right now, and i don't mean to take away from that. I think the chill + sudden feat is a bit OP as it adds control to a spell that can only be balanced if it has no control.
I think a lot of it is playstyle. I played spellstorm before, and i have a second CW too, and there were things I really didn't like:
1) As a spellstorm i was too squishy. HV set is great, but it doesn't have enough defense.
2) I always disliked sudden storm, still dislike sudden storm. It's really not my style at all.
3) The DoTs really work well with how i play, in terms of doting and kiting and moving around. I certainly enjoy it.
I'm not sure that swath + terror is not as good as the burst of spellstorm. It's very hard to tell because the game logs do not parse debuffs the way i would love them to. Am i doing a lot of work for the group by running swath and terror? Absolutely. Is it as good as sudden storm and vorpal? hard to tell. Personally i think the reason that combo looks so good is the amount of trash killing that goes on in a clear. I suspect the debuff is better for bosses.
Anyway, I don't mind the criticism or the way you're outlining to play, but I thought about it. Should I give up 30-40% of my damage for more control which we obviously don't need anyway? It seems that's not an efficent way to play. I really think COI on Tab + thaum feats >> EF on tab + opressor feats. If EF had a higher target cap, i could change my mind, but 5 mobs just simply isn't enough to matter right now.
The way people are clearing CN or T2s is by fighting 20-30 mobs at once, using massive AOE and debuff to melt them all. The bar i am running certainly seems more effective for that situation.
Could I play the slower group, by group way? yes, of course, I did that for months, but until we get content that is actually challenging there is no need for it.
When the situation is appropriate, i really _love_ grouping with furious immolation. Wish it had a higher target cap (but then it would be OP).
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
The point is to make sure conduit hits the strongest mob in the group, then let your other, softer AOEs take care of the trash. Targeting is really important to use COI effectively.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Added pictures to the powers sections (oversight by me)
Corrected some typos.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
What good is CoI if things are dying so quickly is the counter argument. Freeze? No. Damage? No. You just negated your own argument. EF works regardless of how quickly they die whereas CoI does not. Icy Terrain will refresh any smolder by itself.
The only thing I can determine is that content is so simple that there is absolutely no reason to optimize anything anymore. Once you reach 15-18k GS you're at diminishing returns on virtually every stat that could make a difference. There is no content that will provide any sort of challenge what-so-ever. Ergo, at that point, play what is fun. (And MoF can definitely be fun!)
All I can really say is that I'd suggest at least logging into Preview and trying out the following:
http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=cn4:13ydj4:13ydj4,13n30b0:155000:1550uv:100000&h=0&p=ssm
Slot EotS/Storm Spell.
Slot EF in Tab.
Slot Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Icy Terrain.
Open with EF, Oppressive Force, IT, Sudden Storm, Steal Time.
Even though people will rightly point out this is a suboptimal damage rotation, it still runs laps around MoF damage while keeping things locked down and applying both DoT and spike damage. There's no need to run around dodging like a chicken with it's head cut off if everything is frozen or dead.
And, again, there is no difference in survival between MoF or Spellstorm. It's all in your head mate. I would literally give you the AD to respec on live to try it but I know you wouldn't go for it. Storm Spell does more damage than Smolder, and with EotS Elemental Empowerment and Terrain crit for their entire duration every time. Tie on Endless Consumption and you are just as immortal as a MoF in heavy add clears.
MoF can do well enough, but ironically it can only do so when things live a long time. If they do not live a long time, then MoF actually could be said to do nothing at all since every single last bit of it's damage is a DoT that never gets time to work. This is bar none the reason why I intend on getting out of MoF. They have given every single last one of it's advantages to Spellstorm while still keeping most of the extreme efficiency that it had before. (Well, minus 200k crits anyway.)
If Cryptic decided to make FtF do full damage to all 8 targets instead of half, or uncap it's target limit like Storm Spell, it would have a chance. Sadly, since this isn't the case, there is no chance for it. For that matter, FtF should be AoE as a regular encounter or in Tab. FtF vs. Sudden Storm is no contest no matter how you change things around.
Man, I really sound harsh sometimes. It's all just a discussion though. While I think one option is, in fact, superior in all ways MoF still performs better than my HR, GWF, and TR in the damage department so ultimately it's a pretty moot argument ^_^
I've only heard good feedback from my build, right? Though it's a guide because I know Carla developed her own build (which is very effective, seen it in action) and your build seems like it would work too.
With COI - you want to hit the elite in the group, the AOE maintains smolder and chill on the weaker mobs. Honestly I tend to just target the big mobs and let the little ones die as they go along. When I run ACT, COI is actually my highest damage encounter.
Agree on fanning the flame - this spell is a bit underwhelming now. Why did they nerf it anyway? PvP whiners? I don't get the reasoning.
In the last week i've soloed: CT, CC, Idris, MD, GWD, FH, PK, (couldn't kill Syndyth), and Kaurrundax, all at epic, and honestly, it wasn't even that hard. I mean, yes it was hard but, it wasn't insurmountable.
I guess, I look at my CW. The stats are really efficent. The damage is plenty for all situations, they control is plenty for all situations, the survavibility is plenty for all situations, and even doing 5 man content solo isn't that hard - so there's no real incentive for me to change personally.
However, that's why it's a guide and not a build, right? I feel most of the builds on here is "this is how i melt everything with my super OP, super geared toon." I worked hard to avoid that and give players options.
What I really appreciate about your options is not that i'd want to do them personally, but maybe someone reads this, and that person says "oh, spacejew's idea sounds really cool, i'm going to try it out." They obviously have different gear and play in different groups than me, they try your playstyle, it works well, and they are very happy.
So even though we get into these arguments, i really do respect and value your contribution. After all, if we _all_ did the same thing, how could we learn anything?
So yeah, +1. If anyone tries your setup on live (which might be really effective for teams together at moderate GS, like most of the server), let me know how it works out. Post in the forums, give feedback, etc... I appreciate it.
I think the bias about survivability here, might be because many spellstorm players play not to have efficient stat distribution, but rather to max DPS, hence there are a lot of SS glass cannons out there. I think glass cannon builds are inherently inefficient, personally, and I don't do them on any of my toons. Some SS who are more balanced can be very durable.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Temple of Spider and Caverns of Karrundax.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I can pretty much confirm coi being the highest damage encounter for me, too, just did a DV test run and according to ACT it did more damage than shard, IT or ST. An interesting sidenote is, that 60% of my damage was done by passives like rimefire, smolder, assailant, creeping frost, terror enchant....
Did you notice that FTP only seems to work when there are multiple targets hit? Just realized it while fighting the brain and getting no stacks. Don't know if it is bugged or shall work this way.
I absolutely agree that there is not one "the best build", if you don't feel comfortable with what you have, you probably don't play as well as you could. Yes to a build has to fit one's play style.
Personally I like tanky chars and playing a bit like an offtank, even as a CW. Standing in red and not necessarily having to dodge everything is something I love about my CW. Playing a glass cannon may work fine for others, too, but surely not for me.
First, Learned Spellcaster has the following formula:
Bonus Damage multiplier = ((Intelligence-10)/100+1)*(Ranks in Learned Spellcaster)
So if you have 24 Intelligence and 5 ranks in Learned Spellcaster it will increase all outgoing damage by 5.7%. Which is quite nice.
Also they buffed Shield in Module 4. Descriptions here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?692711-Official-Feedback-Thread-Control-Wizard-Changes&p=8430891&viewfull=1#post8430891
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?692711-Official-Feedback-Thread-Control-Wizard-Changes&p=8504751&viewfull=1#post8504751
When on spell mastery damage is reduced by 80% first hit, 65% second hit, then 25% even when it is destabilized. When not on spell mastery it reduces damage by 50% then 25% when destabilized. The permanent 25% damage resistance is pretty handy in places like Epic Lair of Lostmauth, and Epic Shores of Tuern, or when trying to solo difficult to survive dungeons.
I'll give more feedback when I have more time.
I want to know has anything changed since those studies? Such as interactions with the assistant feat, or MOF spells, etc... I'd like to know if you've done any work on that.
I have seen a lot of people use shield in ESOT and ELOL - especially ESOT because he seems to just one shot you and it's very hard to dodge. That said I think it's more efficient to build balanced and have that last encounter slot free for something more active.
When you have time, i'd really appreciate your feedback. Thanks for the hard work,
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I think you mean Assailant? The way Assailant damage works is it triggers on most damage (sometimes at-wills don't trigger it) and has a 5 second cooldown. So it really doesn't matter if you are running a DoT build or a spike damage build as long as you are attacking without many breaks it will do the same damage. It's brainless and can't really be improved or worsened with your build.
I'm one of those people who uses Shield in eSoT. I have to when there's no GF. I'm an aggro magnet on the boss and with several of his attacks requiring dodges (like the fireball that will hit you if you walk out of the AoE even if you're no longer in the red area, and the knives) I can run out of stamina really quick. Then I take knives to the face. With shield on I can survive that, let my stamina build back up, lifesteal my way back to full health and keep going. Without shield I'm wiping left and right. That doesn't happen so much in good groups because he'll target other people on occasion giving me some time to rebuild stamina. But I like a challenge so I frequently just join random queues to see what kind of a mess they're in and if I can help get them out.
For those people who are running shield on tab against dwarves in IWD? Basically my thought is L2Play time. Seriously?
I've been running my GF through ESOT/ELOL recently because my CW has so much RAD, so if I am making a DD party or something, feel free to join.
Some people have been saying that using IT or ROF will proc assailant more often than chilling cloud or a damage encounter, but with a 5s ICD, this is basically BS. Thanks for clearing that up. My intuition was something along those lines.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
The thing is there is absolutely nothing stopping a Spellstorm from using the exact same stat distribution while still doing more X, Y, and Z.
I will however concede one thing and that is that a critical Icy Terrain is basically the source of all damage and survival for a MoF. It's almost silly how everything the Master of Flame build does is primarily centered around that one single ice power instead of Fanning the Flame. You are basically immortal off a single critical IT. The Dracolich, or anything, can take my HP to 5% and I am instantly back to 100% from that. (Although Elemental Empowerment and Storm Spell do much the same thing. Smolder is the smallest damage out of all of them even with Swath. Even if it's more reliable it's meh.)
The theory behind Fanning the Flame being bad is the exact same one as CoI being bad. I wouldn't take it quite that far, because CoI isn't actually 'bad' except in certain very high GS groups doing low gear content but the extra CD and damage reduction on FtF is...pretty terrible. Combined with it's requirement to be on Tab to get any use at all out of it and you're left with the MoF being designed around single-target damage with some AoE. In most content that is...not ideal to say the least.
The best thing about MoF is simple really. It can engage it's single-target damage from further away than Spellstorm and can simply ride it's DoT encounter damage without bothering with at-wills.
I just think that MoF survivability is overrated because no one played GF for quite a long time so survivability was somewhat needed. Now, with GF being able to actually hold threat and consistantly increase survivability I'd rather just build for damage and play off their debuff/buff. There are other classes that are a real value added in that department in that their buffs will peg your mitigation without any added Defense stat from my gear. DC, for instance.
Just like a GF that rigs entirely for damage is terrible, in my mind so is a CW that rigs entirely for debuff or 'tanking'. GF, for instance, will get far more use off a Terror. KV proc's it on anything that even touches you or your group. Just saying. I like efficiency, and while the groups I end up in might or might not have a GF or DC if it's a serious attempt I simply won't go without a more balanced party composition anymore. The utility from those classes is finally useful enough to wait for one before trying.
Basically, if everyone on your team played like a min/max player to the strength's of their class the CW doesn't need more mitigation from gear because it is so incredibly easy to be pegged at 80% mitigation all the time with the absolute lowest mitigation on gear you can possibly get. That, to me, is incredibly hard to ignore.
UPDATE: Updated notes in heroic feats, thanks to Stox for his help.
My CW has been shelfed for a while, too much RAD. I do gearing runs once in a while for people in legit.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Linked to Kaelic's MOF build as an alternative, at end of GEAR section (bottom of page 2).
He and i have different philosophies, but i think it's important to entertain alternative ideas as well. Worth a read.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Very nice Chemboy!! I don't think you could have been more informative if you wanted to.
+100
Thanks a lot man
I've been thinking about it, what's not in here is things like timing and positioning and awareness. How we actually fight. When exactly to use what spells, how to kite and spin your camera, etc..
But that's something that you have to be in combat for. You could possibly talk someone through it on voice, but i have no idea how to communicate that in a guide.
Oh yeah man, CWs are great. Nice thing is that once you have enough gear to not die instantly, you can help the team with control. if you could say, keep swath of destruction up and control well, your teammates will love you.
I would say don't worry about damage to start, as you gear up the DPS will come. Eventually you will be dishing it out great
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Just to clear things up.
In an ACT parse, Smolder will show up near the bottom of the list. But that is because nearly all of the Smolder will have been converted into Rimefire Smolder by chill stacks. Because there are chill stacks all over the place. And Rimefire Smolder is *huge*. It will be near the top of any ACT parse.
In many situations, rimfire smolder is close to 25% and smolder is about 5% for my logs.
Also points, have you noticed smolder has an unusually high crit%? my rimefire crits 60% or so.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know