how bad is the freeze nerf?

dodgo · September 2014

can i please get pvp and pve comments on the above?

Unknown · September 2014

This content has been removed.

chaoscourtesan · September 2014

I don't know. I have been afraid to check any of my three CW's. Will get around to it eventually. Having a busload of characters is over rated. hahaha!

But they were all thaumaturge from the start, so I am guessing they could care less. They are all just wondering why their shard was made useless even as a paperweight. (previous update, obviously. No problem with balance.. but definitely have issue with folks telling me what powers I will use.. which is exactly what happened here...

dodgo · September 2014

tousseau wrote: »

Ummm... have you checked the other threads regarding the recent adjustments, instead of starting another thread on the subject?

In short... we need to adapt or go the way of the dinosaur.

yes and all of them were post patch. also i like the cw forums more than general etc

helpimblindinrl · September 2014

In pve for highly geared groups its meaningless because you just lol your way through anyway. I imagine its not pretty in low gear pugs. Pvp I'm not sure. I've only been in gg pvp since yesterday.

charononus · September 2014

Did CN on my SW tonight. Definitely saw less mobs frozen and locked down. Didn't really matter as it was a faceroll anyways with the dps that was in the group. In less geared groups I think the cumulative nerfs from m4 with this added to it will cause problems. So it really depends. If you are like most players and way overgeared, it really doesn't matter. If you are a new player you probably just got slammed.

veshorok · September 2014

from pve perspective i'll add my voice to the above said: if you're in a high-gs bracket, actually you need no control. just kill whatever moves in your monitor.
tho today i have some tough experience pugging for Shores with gwf-2xhr-tr with a bit lower gs..man, that was really challenging. i just was happy that we were able to kill mobs faster than lack of control hit us.
i know pugging is not the best idea ever but i thought that for any skirmish including epic boss fight in shores i'm ok on my own with some help. well..i guess kill em faster still the only in-game option here. which is really sad.

pointsman · September 2014

Yup, they nerfed the low-end players due to the high-end PVP whining. Good job!

letojarred1 · September 2014

i rarely see adds getting frozen before dying, besides I'm an MoF; I spam OF like an encounter

hefisdo · September 2014

I tested it on PvE and the Chill immunity doesn't seem to be working. I could still add stacks to mobs that just were Frozen.

I don't know on PvP. I'm afraid of going to PvP right now to be honest.

cryptfoundation · September 2014

hefisdo wrote: »

I tested it on PvE and the Chill immunity doesn't seem to be working. I could still add stacks to mobs that just were Frozen.

I don't know on PvP. I'm afraid of going to PvP right now to be honest.

Dude nothing changed for PvP so go in and enjoy your time. It in no way affected the icy rays on tab, chill strike, ROE, and entangling method. 3 second is so short that unless you just left the right click mouse button down the whole time you're not going to notice it... It's just pointsman is so butthurt that the devs realized CWs were way to OP in PvE that he had to blame it on a portion if the game he probably barely even plays

helpimblindinrl · September 2014

The hr thinks cws were op hue hue hue

aulduron · September 2014

I can't tell any difference, since I never relied on perma freezing.

cryptfoundation · September 2014

helpimblindinrl wrote: »

The hr thinks cws were op hue hue hue

Retread my post please tyvm

crazymikee · September 2014

really not that big of a deal, just need to be more agile when fighting gfs and your fine

zebular · September 2014

This is not a "nerf" but instead is a "fix."

The fix was much needed for PvP and doesn't detract from PvE. There really shouldn't be a need to complain about this change, or even call it a "nerf." That is, unless one cannot handle changing their spell rotation to Chill first then Freeze or thinks that locking down players in PvP with endless Freezes and Chills was acceptable.

I have 4 level 60 CWs and I don't notice this change at all in PvE. I always started off with Chills anyway. In PvP, this change merely stops CWs from dominating 1v1 and 1v2 battles from endlessly freezing their targets and stacking chills till they kill them.

crazymikee · September 2014

it wasnt a fix because it wasnt a bug its just an update so its not as much control since control got a big boost already

zebular · September 2014

crazymikee wrote: »

it wasnt a fix because it wasnt a bug its just an update so its not as much control since control got a big boost already

I suppose you're right, in a literal sense. I meant "fix" though as in fixing CWs from dominating PvP 1v1/1v2 battles. I suppose that would count it as a "nerf" but really, in my mind a "nerf" is something which reduces the power of a character, ability, or item and is something that isn't needed but was done anyway. This needed to be done, so to me it counts as a fix.

valencay · September 2014

zebular wrote: »

I suppose you're right, in a literal sense. I meant "fix" though as in fixing CWs from dominating PvP 1v1/1v2 battles. I suppose that would count it as a "nerf" but really, in my mind a "nerf" is something which reduces the power of a character, ability, or item and is something that isn't needed but was done anyway. This needed to be done, so to me it counts as a fix.

a fix is fixing something that isn't workin or is working wrong, a nerf is toning down something that is currently working as intended, putting a cooldown on a capstone is a nerf and must be called like that, if it was needed or not is irrelevant to my point.
now, this is the only objective and correct explanation, every other interpretation is subjective and can legitimately be considered wrong

zebular · September 2014

valencay wrote: »

if it was needed or not is irrelevant to my point.

As you even said, it is irrelevant. So, I am not sure why you want to dwell on this. Especially when I explained my feelings on it in reply to CrazyMike and I even made it clear that it was an opinion of mine. Move on, shall we?

crazymikee · September 2014

I still do perfectly fine and sometimes I do better when im outnumbered, it's just that now you'd have to wait to use ray of frost to stack chill, and the 3 seconds is almost unnoticable in pvp when theres more then 1 enemy, it just encourages you to put chill on more then 1 person at a time and control even more people

veshorok · September 2014

zebular wrote: »

I have 4 level 60 CWs and I don't notice this change at all in PvE.

well, then you're simply not running high-end skirmish/dungeons.
it's pretty noticable as soon as you're not overgearing requirement by 3-4k or you're a single cw and party has a bit lack of dps.
and 'hotfixing' wai..well no one names such things as 'fixings'. literally or any other way.
what can we see btw? community is satisfied? hell no. cause maybe everyone was asking about nerfing cw's other abilities? something familiar in the words 'storm spell'? anyone?
and as i can read only really few disappointed about fixings since we've alredy changed our playstyles not a long time ago. did you notice that? oh, maybe not - doing daily shar quests won't be affected by any 'fixes'.
and please if something hasn't affected personally yourself don't show that up as a law. we have enough ht/gf's over here who know how cw's should play.
thank you for your patient reading but saying that nothing changed..that's a bit super wrong.
have a nice day.

charononus · September 2014

veshorok wrote: »

well, then you're simply not running high-end skirmish/dungeons.
it's pretty noticable as soon as you're not overgearing requirement by 3-4k or you're a single cw and party has a bit lack of dps.
and 'hotfixing' wai..well no one names such things as 'fixings'. literally or any other way.
what can we see btw? community is satisfied? hell no. cause maybe everyone was asking about nerfing cw's other abilities? something familiar in the words 'storm spell'? anyone?
and as i can read only really few disappointed about fixings since we've alredy changed our playstyles not a long time ago. did you notice that? oh, maybe not - doing daily shar quests won't be affected by any 'fixes'.
and please if something hasn't affected personally yourself don't show that up as a law. we have enough ht/gf's over here who know how cw's should play.
thank you for your patient reading but saying that nothing changed..that's a bit super wrong.
have a nice day.

I agree with this. It changed nothing for solo play or for the overgeared. I think it did hurt the new players and those at the gear level requirements greatly. It also has made it where only Thaum is in any way viable. The changes in M4 both initial and on-going have failed in their goals, effected the wrong thing, reduced viable builds, and in general lowered the QoL of CW players. I could support lowering CW dps, while giving them more of a support role like their name implies. However even that as stated has failed due to the buff of stormspell and the changes to EotS doesn't seem to have really created any change. The dps changes have changed the main damage abilities from something that required positioning and timing to use to great effect to random procs that only require spamming abilities as fast as possible. Honestly these changes are dispiriting as they "feel" very ineptly done. There are many ways these fixes could have been done better and actually accomplished their intended goals. They have been brought up in multiple feedback threads before.

helpimblindinrl · September 2014

They decided wizard is dps, that's fine. They didn't like it when we threw the mobs, they didn't like it when we stunned the mobs and they don't like it when we damage the mobs. Yeah k.

Have to laugh at people who get upset about storm spell though, oh its random and no skill. Well critical hit is random and has no skill. Maybe we should remove that.

c1k4ml3kc3 · September 2014

dodgo wrote: »

can i please get pvp and pve comments on the above?

As a Thaum build the PvE nerf is quite felt. Since my only solution for a control and a decent damage is to use icy terrain and ray of frost, they're not compatible anymore since most of the times they don't stack chill. Now I have to go into the Oppressor paragon to grab 10 points so that Sudden Storm gets 5 stacks of chill, but then again ray of frost is useless.
If I want to stop a very dangerous mob, I have to choose either Icy Terrain and pray that I don't die with 2500 defense and magelord set, or that I take Ray of Frost and be a single-target CW which is totally unfair by all standards and by all means.

This freezing nerf is one drop too much in the recent sea of nerfs that Control wizard got and it simply reduces everything and makes it almost impossible for Life-steal Thaum builds to have the sustain. Why the nerf of the freeze? I have no idea, but it's too much for the already VERY squishy CW which dies almost instantly with hi-end gear.

f2pma · September 2014

no difference what so ever

froszzt · September 2014

Not really worth arguing if it was a fix or nerf. Technically it's a nerf, but it serves as a fix. Doesn't really matter what we call it, it was needed.

Or is perma locking someone down in PvP/PvE until they die something that sounds reasonable? CW can already do that in PvP post patch. Icy Ray undodgable -> Entangle for 4 hours -> chill strike another 2 hours -> Rao of Frost spam with endless amounts of Storm Spell procs = death.

I have a CW that I made over a year ago, I challenge any developer to escape my grasp. And then tell me the control is fine when combined with absurd damage. I bet that I have more play hours on my CW than most of you and take it from me, CW is broken atm.

ladis1aus · September 2014

froszzt wrote: »

Not really worth arguing if it was a fix or nerf. Technically it's a nerf, but it serves as a fix. Doesn't really matter what we call it, it was needed.

Or is perma locking someone down in PvP/PvE until they die something that sounds reasonable? CW can already do that in PvP post patch. Icy Ray undodgable -> Entangle for 4 hours -> chill strike another 2 hours -> Rao of Frost spam with endless amounts of Storm Spell procs = death.

I have a CW that I made over a year ago, I challenge any developer to escape my grasp. And then tell me the control is fine when combined with absurd damage. I bet that I have more play hours on my CW than most of you and take it from me, CW is broken atm.

You honestly believe a developer wouldn't be a able to beat you? I'm sure they could beat you with any damage class. CW doesn't have Entangle for 4 hours (seconds) unless they slot orb of imposition (that means EoTS isn't slotted), chill strike is sooo easy to dodge, ray of frost procs 1 spell storm per rotation and has already been scaled back to proc less, also icy rays can be dodged by TR and HR, and blocked by GF and it's worth noting, if you're barely in range of IR and you get marked, dodging backward will cancel Icy rays and trigger the cooldown.

jayrad8 · September 2014

helpimblindinrl wrote: »

Have to laugh at people who get upset about storm spell though, oh its random and no skill. Well critical hit is random and has no skill. Maybe we should remove that.

There's a big difference between Storm Spell and critical hits.

Storm Spell you slot on your bar and immediately have a very reliable, high damage proc that will trigger off pretty much any damage you do (even when you aren't dealing damage but just casting Steal Time). There's no real sacrifice in using this passive in place of another, since the majority are not on par.

In order to make critical hits nearly as reliable as Storm Spell is (without using EotS), you have to build for it in gear, enchants, feats, etc. which requires more effort/thought, sacrifices on other stats you may want, and decision making.

f2pma wrote: »

no difference what so ever

froszzt wrote: »

CW is broken atm.

Agreed -- the change to freeze was also pretty much concurrent with when a lot of CWs refined their Gelid artifact weapons, which allows faster chill stacking. That'd be my guess as to why it doesn't seem like anything has changed. Regardless, you're absolutely right that it doesn't take much to change up your CC rotation to account for a 3 second immunity window.

aulduron · September 2014

Or is perma locking someone down in PvP/PvE until they die something that sounds reasonable?

Of course it is considered by devs to be reasonable. HRs, GFs, and GWFs have been doing it for a long time. I hear HRs can't do it anymore, and GWFs now leave you on your feet when they do it. I've heard of no change to GF chain proning. Thaums can finally do something in PvP, so people are getting pissy about it. Let them have their bottle, and stop crying.

walk2k · September 2014

charononus wrote: »

I agree with this. It changed nothing for solo play or for the overgeared. I think it did hurt the new players and those at the gear level requirements greatly. It also has made it where only Thaum is in any way viable. The changes in M4 both initial and on-going have failed in their goals, effected the wrong thing, reduced viable builds, and in general lowered the QoL of CW players. I could support lowering CW dps, while giving them more of a support role like their name implies. However even that as stated has failed due to the buff of stormspell and the changes to EotS doesn't seem to have really created any change. The dps changes have changed the main damage abilities from something that required positioning and timing to use to great effect to random procs that only require spamming abilities as fast as possible. Honestly these changes are dispiriting as they "feel" very ineptly done. There are many ways these fixes could have been done better and actually accomplished their intended goals. They have been brought up in multiple feedback threads before.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^+1

how bad is the freeze nerf?

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