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Guardian Fighter´s Guard Meter at mod4: Developers, please listen to us.
leonus15
Member Posts: 9 Arc User
As the preview has been hapening, many people are talking of how the GF´s Guard Meter is lasting less. It seens the Guard Meter now decreases over the time we hold up the guard and not because of hit/damage taken.
This new system seens to make our survivability worse. I dont think 10k more of Maximum Hitpoints will counter this, because for the ones that stay at frontline of dungeon, 10k of damage can be taken in few seconds. We, GFs, are tanks (specially the ones that went trought Protectors feats), so surviving is our precious thing. But even now people think we are useless, many think GWF are better cause they would survive as much as us and deal greater damage. So, if our Guard gets worse like this, Im afraid we will be even more discarded.
I myself am a Protector GF with 14k~15k of gear score. I work always with my Guard up, at dungeons and at pvp. Specially at dungeons, I can keep the Guard lifted all time with the right work, with Iron Warrior, with Shield Slam and with Tide of Iron (that recovers 10% of guard). If the Guard decrease over time, Im afraid it will make the gameplay hard and make my survivability bad. And I ask about the Protectors feats like, Armor of Bahamut, Shieldmaster and Balanced Shield Fighter. They decrease the broken shield damage, decrease the guard loss and increase the shield slam and stab at-will, what will be of them now?. Many people say Protectors GF are jokes, so with this changes it will take the few advantages we have.
I ASK THE DEVELOPERS TO THINK AGAIN ABOUT THE GUARD METER. PLEASE, DONT MAKE THE GUARD WORSE. PLEASE, AT LEAST LEAVE THE GUARD AS IT IS.
I summon all GFs to support this request! Let us fight for our survivability!
This new system seens to make our survivability worse. I dont think 10k more of Maximum Hitpoints will counter this, because for the ones that stay at frontline of dungeon, 10k of damage can be taken in few seconds. We, GFs, are tanks (specially the ones that went trought Protectors feats), so surviving is our precious thing. But even now people think we are useless, many think GWF are better cause they would survive as much as us and deal greater damage. So, if our Guard gets worse like this, Im afraid we will be even more discarded.
I myself am a Protector GF with 14k~15k of gear score. I work always with my Guard up, at dungeons and at pvp. Specially at dungeons, I can keep the Guard lifted all time with the right work, with Iron Warrior, with Shield Slam and with Tide of Iron (that recovers 10% of guard). If the Guard decrease over time, Im afraid it will make the gameplay hard and make my survivability bad. And I ask about the Protectors feats like, Armor of Bahamut, Shieldmaster and Balanced Shield Fighter. They decrease the broken shield damage, decrease the guard loss and increase the shield slam and stab at-will, what will be of them now?. Many people say Protectors GF are jokes, so with this changes it will take the few advantages we have.
I ASK THE DEVELOPERS TO THINK AGAIN ABOUT THE GUARD METER. PLEASE, DONT MAKE THE GUARD WORSE. PLEASE, AT LEAST LEAVE THE GUARD AS IT IS.
I summon all GFs to support this request! Let us fight for our survivability!
Post edited by leonus15 on
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"Hey guys, adding one more incoming change to the list of things going up in the next week or two. We really like the concept of Shard, but having it be bar none your best nuke was worrying, especially given that in dungeon and group content it was often pretty hard not to get the most out of it. However we do like the control aspect it does bring and the skill required to land that when there are less foes (or in PVP where it should still merit a slot). Given that we are making the following change to reinforce that.
Control Wizard: Shard of the Endless Avalanche: This power now prones NPCs for 3.5 seconds (up from 1) and prones players for 2.25 seconds (up from 1).
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer "
is now irrevocable and irreversible; even if the gf becomes immortal in pve, defender need to be same or more damage than cw. 4 cw, in pve, = perma prone. threat/block for what?
ps: imagine this on tab.
Everyone said it was unusuable. We will have to see what its like in the next patch.
It won't go back to the old one though, unless they cannot figure out how to make this new one work better. The idea of the change was to improve on the old system, it just doesn't seem like they put any practical test in any of it for this few preview.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
This is not only about the proposed guard/block mechanism beeing good/efficient. The whole new guard/block mechanism in itself is flawed, buffing it won't fix the problems inherent in this new mechanism, and thus it should be scrapped entirely. There were many issues brought up regarding that (conquerors losing dps, unable to protect temporary hitpoints due to shield only catching some damage, players with higher latency who have to raise their shield earlier predicting what will happen losing more guard meter, ...)
I support the original poster in this thread. the proposed guard mechanism must not go live. Let us keep our guard mechanism as it is, and perhaps buff it.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
GF doesnt have any mechanic that allows us to get away from danger once the shield is broken (which you'll find happens quite often and fast) so either give us said mechanic or give us unlimited shield. That would be a step in the right direction.
Edit: GWFs were given some of the GFs powers, get rid of the idiotic tab "Mark" and give us Unstoppable or something similar (Villains Menace?) and problem solved.-
WTB Class Reroll please
I haven't played Tera but I've seen some videos. Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Tera have a dodge mechanic for every class, including the most heavily armored ones? Doesn't Tera have a more action based combat system instead of the auto aim we get here? I wouldn't be against it if dodges were infinite, or GF at least had 1 single dodge, but as it is the class has next to no mobility, and in order to protect itself only has the shield, which doesn't even work that well mind you. Now if the shield breaks in seconds as it is right now, picture just how fast its going to be broken once it drains out not only from dmg but just by being used as well. GF only defensive mechanic needs a buff, instead it gets a nerf lol
oooohhh i though i understood the new guard wrong then. thought it was only draining when you use it. and then it doesn't matter if you take 0 dmg or 5k or 20k. and the lancer of tera doesn't really got a dodge like other classes but got skills/attacks that auto move you left or the right side.
well just tried it on the ptr on my lvl 20 gf. and atleast at level 20 it feels much better then the old guard. but i don't like you still take 20% dmg.
/edit. just did the same pull on live server with the same level and gear and no companion. and on live and needed to use a pot and still mange to barly get away with it. while on the ptr i was looking at my guardmeter and looking at stuff and still mange to get away with it easly. and i got a feeling its a nerf against high dmg bosses. but a buff if you tank lots of adds.
First of all, thank you for supporting the guard/block mechanism as it is at the live server, even if it won't get changed! My position is exactly the same. But you realy need to know something which I cannot stress enough:
The current guard/block mechanic at the live server can be buffed by increasing the general guard meter pool and/or regeneration rate of the guard meter as well as decreasing the delay until the guard meter starts recovering after taking a hit.
It would be unfair to compare the current guard to a stamina-guard that recovers 10 times faster, and it would be also unfair to compare the stamina-guard with the current guard if it had a 10 times higher guard meter. There are two independent dimensions: the effectivity of the guard/block on the one hand, and the mechanic of the guard/block on the other hand. Let's compare the two guards/blocks with them beeing equally effective in mind. That way you will find out what guard mechanic you actually prefer, which is the core issue here.
So, I ask you: If both, the current and the stamina guard get buffed so that they are at a level playing field, which one of the two do you favor?
I hope your answer will remain the same.
(I am playing a 17.1k conqueror GF, continually since a couple of days after open beta started)
I think its important -as @ctf4void has stated- to hear the words of other GF players regarding the changes that are proposed to the GF Guard mechanic. Personally i think that if we go under the assumption that they are equally effective, which at the present moment is simply plain not true, then what is the point of it? What will it change? Why propose it at all if it will be the same? Wise men have said before in these forums: "If its not broken, don't try to fix it". Its been said, and it doesnt get any more Zen than that. Yet the amount of more pressing matters to take care of with this class are legion compared to the banality of whether guard should be measured by the guard meter or by stamina, to name a few:
*GF Utility Power: Shield Guard. Not only is the single defensive mechanic for the class, it is also painfully weak. It is not only needing a buff which is not getting, but is instead being nerfed by adding 20% of damage taken even while blocking. For PvE content: conceded, not as bad. For PvP? Well, a bit of a drastic change don't you find. And if you don't then you probably will when GFs are getting killed without even having their guard broken before HP drops to a big fat 0.
*GF Role in this game: The Tank, as they call it. Yet besides having bulky looking armor that looks insanely cool there is absolutely no evidence to support the statement that GFs are tanks. Nothing that distinguishes the class to justify such title. Nothing. Damage resistance is poor at the very best for both PvE and PvP, coupled with the above mentioned issue about the shield life expectancy, you can easily see where this leads to. Buffing HP bonus from CON to 4% per point in no way will make up for such a flaw on the most basic thing the class should have been given to from the very beginning. Its not a class supposed to do big amounts of damage, conceded, it wont do it, it cant do it, not even when it tries its best. Its a class supposed to *take* punishment like no other class should. Well, is it capable of doing this? [Manners]How can I put it, modestly as I dare....[/Manners] Hell F****ng No. Are other classes able to pull this tanking role in dungeon groups and PvP? Yes, easily and much better than our current GF, and this is a fact well known, that not only GWFs can tank better than GF, but HR does it as well, and sometimes better than GWF.
*GF Encounter: Knight's Valor. Bugged, no news there. But even though the forums are full of threads and comments regarding this problem, nothing is being done about it. Patch notes say it will now give more threat, yet nothing is mentioned about the bug that makes it impossible to use it during dungeon runs. So how will the GF get said threat from KV if KV doesn't work? Conceded, works for PvP at least, but the buff to threat doesn't apply for obvious reasons, unless it works on the bots that keep flooding domination. Does that make it right to not fix it? Of course not.
*GF Special Power: Tab Mark. Utterly useless, specially if you look at what other classes have as a Special Power up their sleeve. It is in no way justifiable to give the GF, the class that is supposed to be the last man standing, such a weak, under-powered tab power. Every class has a tab Special Power that works as both an offensive ability as well as a life saving, defensive one. For GF, tab is a one way tunnel. It is getting a buff, it is very welcome. Could and should be better? Yes, I can think of a million things that would be better than a "Mark". But this wont go away in the short or long term future and we have to bear with it.
*GF Heroic Feat: Armor Specialization. Supposed to buff Armor Class and Defense by 15% when 3/3. Another false advertisement related to this class. It is absolutely bugged, and does literally nothing, no buff to defense, no buff to AC. Has been bugged for over a year, nothing is being said on the patch notes about it neither.
So im sorry to make such a large post, bit deviated from the original intent of this thread, but it still remains true that all of these matters could and should be addressed. Instead, what is being changed, and what is subject to debate, is a class mechanic rework that in a best case scenario will do exactly the same that it does right now, worst case scenario it is in fact a ninja nerf in the guise of a rework.
Everyone cries for nerfing other classes, but right now I'm not interested in other classes, it pisses me that every class has been reworked in a way that suits its original raison d'etre except for GF, that is being sold as a heavily armored Guardian Fighter, when in reality is nothing more than a weak, though cool looking, prone machine. Oh wait, I stand corrected, Mod 4 takes that small joy away from GF as well.-
I think you misunderstood me. And there I tried so hard to bring my point across. What I meant is this: Even if the current guard and the stamina-guard were made equally effective, they still would be very different. They would be different, because they work differently. They have a different feel, and they synergize *cough* differently with existing GF mechanics, powers and feats. Just a minor example: The conqueror feat 'wrathfull warrior' makes you deal more damage if you have temporary hitpoints, and that results in the following:
The stamina guard lets always some damage through, and thus you will lose your temporary hitpoints immediately. With the current guard you have at least the possibility to protect them from a couple of attacks. A GF with 5/5 in wrathfull warrior who just used 'into the fray' stabbing at a pile of mobs with aggravating strike ('cleaving' while you have your shield raised) would be the prime example of negative fallout from this stamina-guard. But the negative backlash goes FAR further...
By not improving ('improving' as in 'making something that exists better') the guard, but by abolishing it and replacing it with something else (the stamina-guard), the core mechanics of our class are changed. Already we can see the negative consequences that come with that deep reaching change: Due to the stamina-guard consuming guard meter just because the shield is raised, the current conqueror capstone had to be changed at the preview server as well. NOT improved. CHANGED. It would not double your power anymore based on the guard meter. If you are a conq. GF and have spent millions of AD to get and upgrade companions which provide power to maximize the effect of your reckless attacker feat - well that's in vain then.
I could go on and on with examples of the negative fallout that comes with this intervention in the core mechanic of our class, and I haven't even mentioned the new (known!) bugs that come with this heavy intervention. But this post is already close to a wall of text. Thx for reading this. *activates iron warrior*
I prefer a buffed current version of the guard meter.
(I recently was briefly with you in CN at the preview server, it was fun. Oh, and since we don't know what kind of buffs are coming, and wether we consider them "buffs", you might want to edit your signature :cool:)
Well thanks for clearing that out! Yes I had misunderstood your point, and now that you've explained it with more depth I can see where you're coming from with it, though personally as I stated on my large post I don't really mind how is the guard going to be measured, as long as feats and everything related to it are reworked in a way that keeps the status quo, preventing the ninja nerfs implied if said feats are not reworked. If it provides a buff to the resistance and duration of the guard before breaking, and it should, all the better. Of course it goes without saying that the proposition to allow damage through the shield is a rather insulting notion, seeing how badly the class needs more survivability.
It would be awesome if the guard meter would stay the way it is, and it would be even more awesome if it didn't drain from damage, only from use. Even more so if it drains at a barely noticeable rate, seeing how everything about the GF is painfully slow, from animations to movement. I don't understand why the only thing that was made fast about this class is the rate at which its guard meter and hit points are depleted.
I want to strongly support the request of this thread.
If the devs make live the proposed changes in the Block dynamics for the Guardian Fighter, that will make that class utterly unplayable, which is very similar to just removing it from the game. (Yes, I've been testing it at the preview server.)
On the other hand, realism? Seriously? Look at this:
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So... to sustain health via pots is very realistic?? LOL
If you play GF like a GWF, better reroll and do GWF.
Our guard/block mechanic should get buffed based on what is currently at the live server. All that is needed is to increase the guard meter, guard recovery rate, and/or decrease the delay for the guard recovery to start.
Our guard/block will be twisted into some perverted mechanic that doesn't have the nice feel the guard/block has at the live server, if the stamina-guard reaches the live server. If you still play GF allthough it is a weak class because you simply love the way it feels - kiss that feeling goodbye if you don't stand up now and speak out against the stamina-guard now in the preview section in the official GF feedback thread.
Unfortunately a small group of players who focus heavily on pvp and in some cases have admitted to not having played GF for months have zealously lobbied for this stamina-guard at the forums to shape the guard/block mechanic according to their wishes for pvp. This game is mainly PvE focused, and a recent forum poll shows that most players are pve focused as well, and yet, this change is going to be forced on us if we don't stop it.
100% agreed.
One issue that I have not seen mentioned is how when you are blocking and backing up (pressing shift and s at the same time of course) sometimes your character turns around and next thing you know your dead. If I am doin something wrong, (I am not lifting my fingers off either key and I am not a **** gf been playing since june 29th 2013), I would appreciate some advise on what I am doin wrong please. This is very annoying, when my shield is up I am very hard to take down. Also and I am sorry if this is off the guard topic, but the **** stab shuffle that keeps going and going and going, does anyone understand what I mean. We look stupid stabbing at the air when the enemy has flanked your other side (lol). I think the animation needs to be totally redone. Thanks for the time fellas:)
Only there will the developers read your feedback, and only then will you have an impact. Please support us GFs that favor the old guard/block mechanic and just want it improved. Please speak out against the stamina-guard in the thread I linked in this post, thanks.
I'm not very sure that they are really paying attention to our feedback, but yeah, I think the same: just in case take your chance to say NO to SHIELDSTAMINA.
At least they will not be able to say that we didn't tried to stop it.