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easy way to counter perma and be viable in pvp
mxtime
Member Posts: 316 Bounty Hunter
just watched all rank 7 enchants cw( 39k hp) with purified gear beat full perma tr rank 10 enchant with bis gear spec. wasnt even a close fight
he uses purified gear
and most important pbilethorn that
messes up trs rotation and gives huge advantage.
and it was that easy to counter perma all along
dont even matter which encounters to slot he used repel lol.
farm purified gear get g/pbile and take home base from that perma easy mode.
if this was some secret build well now u have it plain and simple
purified gear and bile
he uses purified gear
and most important pbilethorn that
messes up trs rotation and gives huge advantage.
and it was that easy to counter perma all along
dont even matter which encounters to slot he used repel lol.
farm purified gear get g/pbile and take home base from that perma easy mode.
if this was some secret build well now u have it plain and simple
purified gear and bile
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CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
strategy is easy
tr goes out of stealth faster which messes up his rotation
huge hp means that he dont even nothice throwing daggers out of stealth
daily takes only 1/3 at most which is not enough
but most important they have less time to do df which is the only way they can kill cw
no dualist flurry - no cw kill
only coz of one word
Building a CW just to encounter one class is not a good solution.
In M4 things will change and CWs will stop using vorpal and try other enchantments like bile or plauge because it will be more about control and less about damage.
And my guess is that the TR sucked.
that is normal cw pvp spec not only to counter tr
i dont see how having 39k hp is bad for pvp
and he can just as easy swich weapon to gpf
very cheap very viable against any class.
and btw that cw would destroy 99% cw out there im sure
From my experience I find it incredibly hard to believe a geared TR would be at a disadvantage in one of these fights. If anything it would level the field for a CW vs TR 1v1, or the TR would still have some advantage.
EDIT: Must've been a different CW according to your last thread since this was using G/PBark. Either way, from my experience, I truly don't think this should be an issue for properly geared/skilled TRs that know what they are doing.
As being stated by TR players, they are actually forced into using perma-stealth. They actually don't like that boring play style and don't like to be node contesters. Let's fulfill their wishes. Reasonably buff up their damage and eradicate the illegitimate perma-stealth thing from this D&D titled game.
its not abouth gear. we have time for 3 df in stealth if that time got reduced in half thats only 1 full df
before bait or ss,
in itc we cant df anyway if they see us.
he was using bait ss itc
and had 100% latest perma spec, roll,gear same as any top tr in the game
maybe top tr would beat him but this looks like viable spec to try out
that tr had 35k hp so what
it is what it it
just need to adjust thats all
I don't think having a perfect bile and having the luxury of paying 5-10 gold in PVP matches is "easy" for most players in Neverwinter though
having rank 7 enchants
with gear that you can get for free
with lets say gbile
is very easy to get
remebmer you are countering perma tr with bis gear with pbile
what do you want 9gs cw pve 21hp?
or you just take gpf and still have huge fun in pvp with 39k hp
PvP has always rewarded making your characters tanky rather than a glass cannon in any game.
same gear, skill,pvp spec perma tr cant kill
hr
gwf
dc
cw
i hope we can still kill gf by the time mod 4 comes
lol
but people dont like to spec for pvp (only trs are supose to do that).
i think its just abouth time for the stealth nerf hehe
Was this done in IWD with pets off?
If the rogue wasn't any good at staying out of sight the 2 stealth replenishers weren't helping him much there. Bilethorn ticks or not.
But we don't really know, just got your word here. Could have at least posted a video.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
it was 1v1 fight at the point in normal pvp
and that tr had huge problems landing df coz his stealth was depleting
and yeah any perma tr uses tenacious its useless against bile
When i first encountered CWs in pvp they used to kill me alot. I gradually got better in PVP as I learned the game. While tenebrous enchants were sheer insanity in pvp I was getting killed by top geared CWs(more often GWFs) no matter what I did. My current impression of cw now in pvp is-free kill. I remember having an awesome CW on my team for one dominion, thinking "wow, this CW would be awesome to duel against". I faced this same CW in the very next dominion match up and butchered them repeatedly. I don't use a daily against a CW unless I'm facing 2v1, cause it's a waste. I'm not particularly bragging about this, I attribute this to CW vs TR being a very bad match up.
I can think of exactly 3 CWs who gave me significant trouble in a 1v1 match up in the past 2 months or so(and I pvp every day) I give these CWs incredible props in adapting the best they could against a bad match up. The first CW used icy rays to mark me and thereby know my location during stealth. This made him significantly harder to kill, he impressed me more with a highly tactical use of a power than actually beating me, i still stomped him.
The second CW that gave me trouble used shard of the endless avalanche on tab. He used it very well too. He killed me three times, against the two times I killed him during the match. It was the rarity of the tactic that caught me by surprise. I now know how that power works (I tried it on my CW in PVP and with target lock it's friggin amazing!) and have faced CWs who use it since and had little trouble beating them.
The third CW I faced that gave me trouble 1v1 did some very tricky things with time steal. She seemed to start the power somehow whenever I was the ideal distance away (possibly anticipating my movements?). She would detect if the power was hitting me or not and make the best possible decision to either follow through or teleport and put it on short cooldown. I was in awe. Having said that she killed me one time with a well timed daily and we danced the dance of a duel for a long time after that. We never got the chance for a best of three as our party was crashed by her and my teammates(which ended very badly for her). Still, given some time I think I could have adapted and overcome this tactic as well.
I have never seen a CW using a Pbile or if I have I didn't even notice it. I have seen one GWF(it wasn't particularly effective, might not have been a perfect). To make it an effective stealth peel a CW's best bet would be ray of frost or COI. While this might certainly give a CW some advantage in anti rogue combat, I doubt it would be enough to make CW vs TR anything but a very bad match up.
It's a mistake to think that somehow just having a Pbile equipped is going to keep a good TR from hitting you with flurry since your likely to never see them until they do connect with it and you only have a 2 second window to do something about it when they do connect. It's also a mistake to think that a TR requires flurry to kill a CW(even a very tanky one) in the first place. I kill alot of CWs using nothing but gloaming cut(even tanky ones). Now before we get into a huge discussion over GC I would like to say that both DF and GC are very hard to use and the proficiency with with a given rogue uses them ranges from can't hit the broad side of a barn to downright surgical. So a given match up between a rogue and a cw with Pbile might not be very indicative of how effective Pbile is in general as a CW anti-rogue option.
Since I have never to my knowledge faced a CW using Pbile I can only speak theoretically on how i would do against one. However, seeing as I slot sneak attack and skillful infiltrator and only slot tenacious if I'm face tanking GWFs or pressed by POTB/bile using rogues, my prediction would be this. *Kothargix faces Pbile CW for the first time* "Geez, that CW burns through stealth kinda fast" *slots tenacious*, *stomps CW repeatedly*
Or, we could go even more defensive with WK perma, but that would be a much more difficult style and stuff like CoI or Icy Terrain might counter it enough to leave you too open, but could work perhaps with smoke bomb or something.
Or we could go with Deflect/BI non stealth.
I mean, there will be options. This is still a very rare case and it wont be till next Mods damage nerfs/ice buffs that we will see more CW popularity with bile + RoF as a good source of damage.
I'll only be concerned about it if next mod bile or DoTs are becoming popular for Warlocks + CWs start using it more, but it shouldn't be too bad.
I don't buy it either. Does anyone have video of the fight plus gear or are we just making stuff up?
I agree. http://youtu.be/_B311iCASic
First and foremost, apologies for the terrible quality. But I believe
- When the Rogue is in Stealth, Steal Time + Dodge Cancel + Bilethorn: Steal Time will turn into a 4 second Slow effect that stacks multiple ticks of Bilethorn. If the TR is trying to close in on you and land a DF, the decent range of Steal Time will prevent him from effectively closing in on you. You get to stack ticks of Bilethorn while afflicting him with a Slow effect that would make him easier to detect due to his lack of mobility.
- When the Rogue is out of Stealth or in ITC (regardless if used from Stealth or not), Ray of Frost + Bilethorn: So once the Rogue pops out of Stealth, he will be a whole lot more vulnerable because Bilethorn and Ray of Frost is a whole lot more synergistic than our previous combo. It lands a good amount of Bilethorn ticks on the Rogue, effectively eating his Stealth if he attempts to stealth up using Shadow Strike + Stealth. Even if the Rogue is in ITC, the Bilethorn ticks will still remain. This combo becomes more effective if you are a Master of Flame CW. With Critical Conflagration slotted, you will be able to afflict the TR with an extra set of DoTs via Rimefire, causing Bilethorn stacks comparable to what Duelist's Flurry can generate.
The Rogue also will not be able to get the opportunity to wait for the Bilethorn ticks to run out, because the longer he stays out of Stealth, the more you can fire Ray of Frost against him, stacking more Bilethorn ticks to eat his Stealth and considerably mess up his rotation. Even Tenacious Concealment is useless against such a large volume of BT ticks.
Again, this is not a sure fire way to beat a skilled Stealth player. Similar to how the effects of permastealth gets better with the skill of the player using the said build, the Bilethorn Wizard's overall efficacy in battle depends on how he is willing to open himself up to these strategies and incorporate them to his playing style.
Just so everyone is made aware, you will not find any other Enchantment that destroys a class mechanic directly like Bilethorn. You won't find an enchantment that locks down Unstoppable, Mastery, Divinity, Stance Switch, etc (I forgot the mechanic of the last class... wait, what was the last class again?). We can consider TRs to be on the unfortunate side because every other class has access to such a powerful tool to destroy their main Class Mechanic. Luckily, so many people are being choosy with how they kill a class. People don't want to use Bilethorn, that's fine by us I guess. Us TRs (or at least the ones I know) have a Bilethorn-slotted reserve main-hand dagger since Open Beta aside from the main Vorpal back then, because we know that when fighting another TR, the one who runs out of Stealth first, dies first.
It's either you adapt or you die, and your death is a CHOICE. When CWs get such an easy way to deplete a TRs Stealth, what exactly is there to think about anymore? Just enjoy the dying rogues.
Oh yeah, Scorching Burst also stacks a decent amount of Bilethorn ticks. One tick of SB does the amount of BT ticks shown in the picture below.
For DC's, use Punishing Light + Bilethorn. It's the only thing I tested so far with my level 11 DC. I want to see the synergistic effects of BotS + BT, FMF + BT, and BtS + BT, but I'm confident these skills will also stack a decent to significant amount of Bilethorn Stacks. Another counter DC's have against Stealth users is Burning Guidance + Astral Shield and other heals. Burning Guidance also hurts the Stealth pretty bad.
Against better TRs it's a much harder match up but I still end up winning the majority of 1v1s. It's a really effective build - for fighting TRs. It's less effective against other classes (lacks burst).
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Thank you for this post, I can now see how Bile could be alot more effective for a CW than I had originally supposed, although I am a bit doubtful that it could be as effective as flurry as 1 flurry = 9-18 wep procs and I have read that bile is currently bugged with flurry in that it applies more bile procs that it is supposed to, It also does this all in a 2 second window. I would also like to point out that bark shield will eat bile without affecting stealth up to a certain degree, most noticeable when no other damage is taken(ITC).
Against a CW who is truly able to eat my stealth effectively, my tactic would probably be to never let him see me at all. Striking them from behind with GC/timing dodge rolls with GC. This would in effect be a true perma stealth rotation without the use of ITC. Since I am a sabotuer I have heavy boosts to my movement speed/stamina, which would make this tactic entirely feasible.
Bilethorn is bugged in two ways, one of which is being fixed on Preview. (1) It sometimes applies an unintended second tick of 16 damage and (2) an interaction with just Duelist Flurry at-will, Bilethorn poison reactivates again after an 8 second delay. Bilethorn should only deal weapon damage, and a delayed hit after 4 seconds.
The bug is: it deals damage again after 8 seconds. When Flurry hits 12 times, Bilethorn creates 48 damage floaters, instead of 36. That is why Bilethorn eats stealth so fast. Just because not everybody is aware this is a bug, I wouldn't call it out as an intentional exploit.
I refuse to use Bilethorn for this reason, unless I am forced to.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder