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easy way to counter perma and be viable in pvp

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  • godlysoul2godlysoul2 Member Posts: 661 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    rustlord wrote: »
    Bilethorn is bugged in two ways, one of which is being fixed on Preview. (1) It sometimes applies an unintended second tick of 16 damage and (2) an interaction with just Duelist Flurry at-will, Bilethorn poison reactivates again after an 8 second delay. Bilethorn should only deal weapon damage, and a delayed hit after 4 seconds.

    The bug is: it deals damage again after 8 seconds. When Flurry hits 12 times, Bilethorn creates 48 damage floaters, instead of 36. That is why Bilethorn eats stealth so fast. Just because not everybody is aware this is a bug, I wouldn't call it out as an intentional exploit.

    I refuse to use Bilethorn for this reason, unless I am forced to.

    From what I just tested with it I got 8 DF hits and 11 Bleeds, which would put it at 38 intended floaters, but I also got 48 total (Not including the extra 16 procs). (Unless I miscounted bleeds, but I ran through counting a few times). I have the numbers saved and I'll update this later with what % dmg I get from bile being bugged. I may just end up switching out of it now that I see just how much extra unintended damage it is truly getting.

    Have you or has anyone have bile used on them on preview? I'm wondering if there is any noticeable difference with how much stealth is drained by it without the extra "16" procs. It would obviously still hit a ton though...
  • iwaslaggingiwaslagging Member Posts: 71
    edited July 2014
    This is pretty much the point of the build. It massively increases the skill required by the TR to win the confrontation, and the majority of TRs you meet in PuG PvP really aren't that skilled. It's a leveller but not a guaranteed win if the TR knows how to adapt.

    what more do u need?
    being same lvl with bis tr spec
    pvp only class

    maybe tr need another nerf ?
  • f2pmaf2pma Member Posts: 665 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    godlysoul2 wrote: »
    From what I just tested with it I got 8 DF hits and 11 Bleeds, which would put it at 38 intended floaters, but I also got 48 total (Not including the extra 16 procs). (Unless I miscounted bleeds, but I ran through counting a few times). I have the numbers saved and I'll update this later with what % dmg I get from bile being bugged. I may just end up switching out of it now that I see just how much extra unintended damage it is truly getting.

    Have you or has anyone have bile used on them on preview? I'm wondering if there is any noticeable difference with how much stealth is drained by it without the extra "16" procs. It would obviously still hit a ton though...


    i hit 4 df on a gwf in a row
    he never hit me or prone me
    i was 50%hp left
    he pop artifact and was 100%
    same gwf can 3 shot me if he has daily
    and 3 sec roar


    same gear pvp build bile does nothing to gwf,dc,hr
    even cw can counter easy if they wanted

    it only deal dmg to pugs 20k hp
  • f2pmaf2pma Member Posts: 665 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    hfgtfsdfs wrote: »
    Slotting pbilethorn just to fight a TR might win you that fight but not the match. When the enemy team would notice that the TR is failing they would change something and adapt and the CW would do badly overall in the match.

    Building a CW just to encounter one class is not a good solution.

    In M4 things will change and CWs will stop using vorpal and try other enchantments like bile or plauge because it will be more about control and less about damage.

    And my guess is that the TR sucked.


    trs slot pbile just to counter another trs why cant cw do the same
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    what more do u need?
    being same lvl with bis tr spec
    pvp only class

    maybe tr need another nerf ?
    I didn't say I needed anything more. I don't expect guaranteed wins in PvP, just a fighting chance. This build gives me that chance against Perma TRs. That's good enough for me.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • godlysoul2godlysoul2 Member Posts: 661 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Here is what I got using G.Bile on TR testing a DF:

    8 Hits (DF) (Only landed the flurry part)
    11 Bleed Ticks
    23 Unintended Bile Procs ("11" dmg ea)
    69 Total Bile Procs (including the "11" dmg ea)
    8 Unintended Bile Procs (x4 initial/x4 delayed)

    Running the numbers, by taking out the unintended "11" dmg procs, (as is set to be done on preview), creates an overall ~6.8% damage decrease from the added damage of the enchant to DF. That isn't too bad overall, but still sucks.

    However, the crazy part is if they were ever to fix the unintentional procs from DF aside from just those extra "11s" that occur, from where the enchant is now to the point where it loses all unintentional dmg, G.Bilethorn would lose ~23% of its damage when using DF.

    Just thought I'd add this if anyone was curious. Rogues better hope they don't fix DF.

    Then again, I just ran the numbers for how much damage vorpal would add, and even if they did fix Bile, it would still do somewhat more damage on average compared to vorpal, even considering crit bleeds. If one did manage to crit the bleed it would be more damage per rotation, but considering a 30% chance to get 100% crit for all the bleeds bile still ends up better for total DoT. However, this would be for max CON and ~30% crit. If one was built for DPS with more DEX or higher Crit, then vorpal might start pulling ahead again.

    Non DF is where vorpal would pull ahead, but even with potential fixes to bile, it would still be the best stealth counter.
  • mxtimemxtime Member Posts: 316 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    there is no reason what so ever cw should use anything but bilethorn
    they cant beat gwf,hr
    but they can beat tr
  • cust0mxcust0mx Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    mxtime wrote: »
    there is no reason what so ever cw should use anything but bilethorn
    they cant beat gwf,hr
    but they can beat tr

    I believe i was the CW you are referring to... ( rank 7, BI puri, repel :D )
    I need to add that i still loose to some Trs with this build. Like someone said in the thread, it just pushes the skillcap of the TR.
    Buts its definitely fun to play!
  • tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    mxtime wrote: »
    there is no reason what so ever cw should use anything but bilethorn
    they cant beat gwf,hr
    but they can beat tr

    CW can beat HRs and are pretty even vs GWFs, so long as they run a renegade/repel burst damage style build. The skillcap to be capable of pull those kind of 1v1 matchups off and winning a significant portion of the time is pretty dang high though.
    RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
  • f2pmaf2pma Member Posts: 665 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    cust0mx wrote: »
    I believe i was the CW you are referring to... ( rank 7, BI puri, repel :D )
    I need to add that i still loose to some Trs with this build. Like someone said in the thread, it just pushes the skillcap of the TR.
    Buts its definitely fun to play!

    we just did few 1v1 and i lost like all of them hhehe
    i just farmed executioner set and went all recovery no dmg but i still think i would lose if i used my old set
    because u have a lot off dodges huge hp,remove my stealth easy

    its safe to say thats more then viable build .
    im not the best perma around but i beat some page 2,3 trs 1v1 couple of times
    and if u lose with this build its skill nothing more its more then viable (as u said u lost from 2 top tr in the game)
    you team won coz of u
    u can hold off any perma capping

    im making this spec cw myself had enough of df
  • f2pmaf2pma Member Posts: 665 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    morenthar wrote: »
    Betcha ya I would smoke that CW. The TR had to really suck.

    i beat u 1v1 so easy lol
    we fought more then once
    but u had pvorp then

    and maybe u are right smoke bomb is better didnt try it
    i was using bait and it doesnt work good

    still its more then viable cw build way better then others i fought
    i cant use pob or bait 2 main encounters

    no idea what took so long that cws make a hp bile build
  • f2pmaf2pma Member Posts: 665 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    morenthar wrote: »
    Ah dude, you fought a totally gimped build transitioning from a pure PvE build. You also out-geared the living hell out of me. If I was using a P Vorpal it was months ago. My build and gear only came into its own about 2 weeks after the release of Mod 3. I farmed my *** off so it took me a lot longer. I upped my INT to 16 and dropped my ArPen and increased my recovery. I have one more ranked 8 needed to go to 9. So totally different build and strategy I use these days.

    I've never claimed to Mr. Uber TR but one thing is for sure, the Syndul you run into next time will be a lot harder to deal with than the Syndul you went up against using a Vorpal.

    nevermind
    my last post on forum
    many will be happy hehe
    enjoy
  • todesfaelletodesfaelle Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Thank you for this post, I can now see how Bile could be alot more effective for a CW than I had originally supposed, although I am a bit doubtful that it could be as effective as flurry as 1 flurry = 9-18 wep procs and I have read that bile is currently bugged with flurry in that it applies more bile procs that it is supposed to, It also does this all in a 2 second window. I would also like to point out that bark shield will eat bile without affecting stealth up to a certain degree, most noticeable when no other damage is taken(ITC).

    Against a CW who is truly able to eat my stealth effectively, my tactic would probably be to never let him see me at all. Striking them from behind with GC/timing dodge rolls with GC. This would in effect be a true perma stealth rotation without the use of ITC. Since I am a sabotuer I have heavy boosts to my movement speed/stamina, which would make this tactic entirely feasible.

    Hi, and I'm glad you found it useful.

    Ray of Frost + Critical Conflagration + Bilethorn definitely will not be as effective as DF. But if you think about it carefully, you can do similar effects to DF from an 80' range. I'm sure you can imagine the possibilities.

    And yep! Barkshield does eat up a Bile proc without hurting the Stealth meter. But then again, the stack limit of Barkshield is 3, Bilethorn's stack limit is infinite. They can regenerate their Barkshield all they want but in terms of stacking potential, Bilethorn rules over Barkshield. Which is why Ray of Frost + Bilethorn is a very deadly combination regardless of what Paragon Path the CW is using.

    And as for your strategy regarding the CW who can eat your Stealth effectively. I'm not so sure about that, man. You'll have to be incredibly skilled to not be popped out of Stealth by a Bile CW using the aforementioned Bilethorn synergies with the CW encounters. For TRs in Stealth, Bile CWs can use Steal Time + Dodge Cancel to pop them out.

    For those who are not aware, Steal Time has a very decent range and has a 4 second activation phase which afflicts the CW's surrounding enemies with a Slow effect, and this is one crazy slow effect because the efficacy of the debuff is increased the more the opponent has been exposed to the activation phase. What makes Steal Time + Dodge Cancel effective, however, is its mechanic that reduces Steal Time's Cooldown to 4 seconds after cancellation via dodge. This in turns Steal Time into a Bilethorn-stacking, Slow-afflicting, readily usable encounter to pop TRs out of Stealth. CWs can just keep rinsing and repeating this combo every 4 seconds, and this can be made even more effective if they are using the Oppressor Feat, Brisk Transport, which increases their movement speed by 10% each time they Dodge. It will make it harder to land those strikes when you are slowed and they are sped up.

    This is especially effective against TRs who are in need of closing in against their enemies; and that's us, the rare Gloaming Cut TRs, and possibly even DF Stealth TRs. We will have to be very careful about the range of Steal Time as it is actually roughly around dodge range, meaning we are bound to get by the stacks regardless of dodging. ITC will become imperative to cover up for the Stealth we'll lose against these sort of CWs.

    I'm also a Gloaming Cut TR, and have been avidly practicing the art since Beta. Even I can't deny the potential of CWs to be a hard counter for TRs if the CW is tanky enough for PVP. And CWs are bound to get some sort of defensive buff in the future, specially with Mod 4 right around the corner with all sorts of surprising nerfs and buffs.
    f2pma wrote: »
    ...no idea what took so long that cws make a hp bile build

    Because most CWs are obsessed with burst damage.

    MoF is so underrated, but once Mod 4 hits we should see an increase in Rimefire Wizards and Bilethorn PVP CWs due to the drastic nerfs to the Spellstorm Path. MoF is a good path but is vastly overshadowed by the massive and overpowered DPS potential of the Storm Wizard.
  • mxtimemxtime Member Posts: 316 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    once cws realise dps is overated they can start to enjoy pvp
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I honestly have mixed feelings for Stealth TR in module 4. Granted, no nerf so far. But every other class is catching up with their Purified Black Ice gear. The "Draft Scourge Warlock" that we have now on Preview stacks DoT like a boss, and we're currently looking at reworks in their defenses. With more people learning how effective Tod's propositions are, it's becoming so much easier for another class to counter a Stealth TR.

    I hate playing as an all-stealth TR, but I don't bear grudge against those that do play it. I've tried everything there is to this class, PermaStealth of all flavors included. I certainly found it more flexible and, if allowed to say, easier. I do love a good challenge and not a META kind of guy so I roll more differently.

    TL;DR

    But I also agree with everyone else who pointed out "Is it worth building against one class, and gimping yourself against others?" Stealth TR isn't even the whole of the class. Bile CW will encounter TR like me who practically don't need stealth to burn them down. I can perma-daze a CW, killing him using Scoundrel's Sly Flourish while 100% visible.
  • sapdragonsapdragon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Interesting thread. What is everyone's thoughts on Bile vs PF, over-all (not just vrs TR) as an enchant then for CWs. Remembering that new players don't have 2 main weapons slotted with two greater/perfects ^_^
  • mxtimemxtime Member Posts: 316 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    rustlord wrote: »
    I honestly have mixed feelings for Stealth TR in module 4. Granted, no nerf so far. But every other class is catching up with their Purified Black Ice gear. The "Draft Scourge Warlock" that we have now on Preview stacks DoT like a boss, and we're currently looking at reworks in their defenses. With more people learning how effective Tod's propositions are, it's becoming so much easier for another class to counter a Stealth TR.

    I hate playing as an all-stealth TR, but I don't bear grudge against those that do play it. I've tried everything there is to this class, PermaStealth of all flavors included. I certainly found it more flexible and, if allowed to say, easier. I do love a good challenge and not a META kind of guy so I roll more differently.

    TL;DR

    But I also agree with everyone else who pointed out "Is it worth building against one class, and gimping yourself against others?" Stealth TR isn't even the whole of the class. Bile CW will encounter TR like me who practically don't need stealth to burn them down. I can perma-daze a CW, killing him using Scoundrel's Sly Flourish while 100% visible.


    looks like that sw dots will remove stealth easy
    ticks like bilethorn very fast and im sure they made it like that to counter perma
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    rustlord wrote: »
    But I also agree with everyone else who pointed out "Is it worth building against one class, and gimping yourself against others?" Stealth TR isn't even the whole of the class. Bile CW will encounter TR like me who practically don't need stealth to burn them down. I can perma-daze a CW, killing him using Scoundrel's Sly Flourish while 100% visible.
    Bile CW isn't exactly gimped against other classes as such. It's less effective than a Burst Renegade, for example, but also very survivable. My Bile CW actually has a pretty solid K/D ratio - fewer (non TR) kills but a lot fewer deaths. All that extra HP helps, and it's surprising how many people run away once you've stacked a bunch of DoT effects on them regardless how much actual damage they're taking.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • gomok72gomok72 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Just out of curiosity and I know everyone is big on bile thorn but wouldn't the Greater "Plague fire" be a lot better for a caster?
    I know everyone of the PvPers is big on the Bile but stacking 3 defense debuffs at 15% each and putting 2 different dots on the target one instant and the other for 3 seconds, after to me is better than bile thorn.

    I'm going to be using "Greater plague fire" to compliment my Warlock's abilities instead of the Bilethorn.
    I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.

    -Kymos
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    gomok72 wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity and I know everyone is big on bile thorn but wouldn't the Greater "Plague fire" be a lot better for a caster?
    I know everyone of the PvPers is big on the Bile but stacking 3 defense debuffs at 15% each and putting 2 different dots on the target one instant and the other for 3 seconds, after to me is better than bile thorn.

    I'm going to be using "Greater plague fire" to compliment my Warlock's abilities instead of the Bilethorn.
    Bilethorn is superior at Stealth removal; GPF is superior on pretty much anything else. Bronzewood is actually pretty good for CW also.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    On the downside, GPF works towards the defense stat and not flat out damage resistance that might go in the negative, unlike other debuffs. IF my sources are correct, which my own testing goes to show also, -45% of a 2000 defense stat is 1100. That is about 9.46% DR? That's easily offset by armor penetration. So I'm inclined to think GPF only works best against fighters.
  • fuzzychaos13fuzzychaos13 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 127 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    mxtime wrote: »
    just watched all rank 7 enchants cw( 39k hp) with purified gear beat full perma tr rank 10 enchant with bis gear spec. wasnt even a close fight

    he uses purified gear
    and most important pbilethorn that
    messes up trs rotation and gives huge advantage.

    and it was that easy to counter perma all along
    dont even matter which encounters to slot he used repel lol.


    farm purified gear get g/pbile and take home base from that perma easy mode.

    if this was some secret build well now u have it plain and simple
    purified gear and bile

    Wow, that must have been the Worst TR in the game. GG
  • gomok72gomok72 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Bilethorn is superior at Stealth removal; GPF is superior on pretty much anything else. Bronzewood is actually pretty good for CW also.

    What I have been noticing , and I am bringing this up since the Warlock preiew, they can put and maintain dots with an uncleansable curse on a target almost indefinantly. It might be better for a CW to have bile thorn, but I'm thinking that will not be the case with Warlocks (whole new dynamic in place for PvPers to fight against). 45% is a huge amount of defenses gone with an up time of almost 100% (as long as the warlock is alive and attacking).

    It's still going to be a work in process, experimenting with this, but I'm doing this from a team perspective (my son will be running bile thorn in the group), I'll post my findings.
    I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.

    -Kymos
  • iwaslaggingiwaslagging Member Posts: 71
    edited July 2014
    Wow, that must have been the Worst TR in the game. GG

    and u play a tr sir?
    or a gwf which 2 year old can spam
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    morenthar wrote: »
    I'm more concerned about the "growing TRs" who are working on improving Gear/Enchantments. I think the Warlock and Bile CWs in that mid-range will eat them alive.
    At the moment the Warlock is a free kill for any class. It will need some fairly radical changes to make it a PvP viable class.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Easy Way To Counter Perma And Be Viable In Pvp

    I know this is a bit late to say, but just wanted to explain how to time your dodges properly using a technique I use.

    DF/bleeds make over half of a Perma TR's dps. If you can avoid this, you've successfully increased your chance of survival by 50%. How do you avoid DF from an invisible attacker you ask? Well, the point is to only land the 3rd part of the combo, so it has a long wind up of animation before that.

    This at-will is subject to the following rules:

    1. DF when in stealth, and stealth has at least 3 more seconds remaining.
    2. DF when in range. The range is equal to the diameter of a node.
    3. The windup takes about 3 seconds before the 3rd strike.

    Your objective:

    1. Look for a pause in battle. In order to DF, the TR will have to stop using powers, and be in stealth. ITC is not stealth. Path of the Blades is a do-and-forget/doesn't count, so simply look for a pause in Clouds of Steel (throwing daggers).
    2. Once the daggers stop and the TR is nowhere to be seen, count "one-one thousand, two-one thousand, three-one thousand" dodge. If the countdown is interrupted by an attack (ex. Shadow Strike refills stealth) repeat your count in the next pause. Conserve your stamina this way so you regain enough stamina to spam evasion.

    If you're a GF, I'm sorry.
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    A non-skilled way to counter perma as a nub cleric:
    Stand there face tank him, see what skill he use, if he is purely perma then you just do zig zag jumping and pointless random run around the node. If he is a hybird, when he jump to you, you can either straight dodge or let him attack you. Cast Exaltation for immune after he is very close to you, you may avoid his lashing blade damage. DF has a slow casting animation, so you can differentiate DF and SF easily. If he use SF then just face tank him with Healing word and Astral Shield on you. If you use briartwine, then your astral seal heal will compensate the little damage he done to you. Learn to master these stuff, sent DC vs perma TR is always a good option if your team is weak.
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