Well, the CW was never meant to actually do DPS. It's just a combination of power design and poor epic dungeon planning that made CW into a PvE king class. But I don't think anyone really expected that to last forever. Everyone knew a nerf was around the corner, we just didn't know how and when.
It may not have been meant to do dps by Cryptic but in D&D thats exactly what they are supposed to do. They are AoE combatants designed to deal large amounts of damage spread out across the entire battle field in order to control the battle. They by D&D standards do not freeze a target in place and then entangle another and do nothing else. As a matter of fact they very rarely if ever control targets in such ways. What most people here don't understand is the word control before wizard does not mean hold a target in place it means control the battle field with AoE damage so as to force the enemy to split up and become less effective by punishing them for grouping together. In D&D settings and novels many times the CW is the one in charge of the battle directing their Melee counterparts where to go after splitting up the enemy forces thus enabling the melee to do what they do best by controlling the enemies actions and ability to stay together to defend themselves.
Another thing many folks don't seem to grasp is the CW is not the highest damage dealer in the game. GWF and TR's even HR's do more single target focused damage by far than the CW. What puts the CW on the top of your meters for those of you that watch the damage meters like hawks is his AoE. While the TR or GWF is bashing that boss mob for 20k-30k a pop the CW is hitting it for 10-15 but the difference is he is also bashing that boss mobs friends for some damage too, hence controlling the battle field. AoE is always going to look like they are doing more damage because they spread it out, hitting one mob for 10k vs. 5 mobs for 4k will always show up as less overall damage and even dps but that one mob for 10k was and is most likely more important because it was done to the strongest mob on the field while that AoE was designed to help take care of that big bad bosses friends so you can continue to pop off those big numbers on that boss.
If you want a class that freezes and entangles then I would suggest yelling at cryptic to make an Illusionist class or something along those lines designed to do the CCing your wanting because that is not what CW's are supposed to do.
Yeah , I guess i'm just blowing off some steam , if I have to start over just to be a magic dps it's going to be annoying , really they should never have let high dps CW run so long but whatever , I just wish cryptic would get their act together , every time they release a new class they can't just nerf the nearest existing class into oblivion to make the new class seem desirable ,people are going to play it anyway , ugh building up all my companions and artifacts again * headbutts desk*
Did you by chance happen to read the Control Wizard class description? CW was never meant to be a primary DPS role, it's primary role is CC.
Did you by chance happen to read the Control Wizard class description? CW was never meant to be a primary DPS role, it's primary role is CC.
What has that to do with the fact that for over a year CW has been primary dps and secondary control? did you read the bit that said "they should never have let it run so long" , read and comprehend before posting.
Also I'm pretty sure the class description at character creation doesn't say anything about primary and secondary roles ,if anything it mentions torrents of damage before it mentions anything about manipulating enemies.
What has that to do with the fact that for over a year CW has been primary dps and secondary control? did you read the bit that said "they should never have let it run so long" sheesh where are all the forum nebs coming from ? , read before posting.
You are absolutely right. Cryptic (and Perfect World by extension) should not have let it run as long as they have. Their initial product goal was to have each class fulfill different roles in this game. These initial classes were to be developed as the base for a party makeup.
GF= Tank
GWF= Tank/ Dps hybrid
CW= AoE dmg/ Crowd control
DC= Party Support/ Dps
TR= Single Target Dps
Every new class there after would be made to help fill in gaps in the party compilation and to add variety to keep the player base interested with styles of play. However, along the way, development stagnated and the class system due to horrible itemizations (and ingenuity of the player base) got out of hand for them. This happens in every MMO where the players can tweak and control the settings and growth for their characters. Players will find ways to do things that the developers didn't expect. Most companies decide to run with it and make it seem that's what was intended all along. Other developers fight against it, nerfing these unexpected class builds into the ground, naturally causing an up roar.
Regardless of what they do, the player base will be angry. If you nerf those specs, players will shout foul and threaten to quit because the new cool way to play that allowed them to win will be gone. If they let it continue, the balance of the game will be threatened and the continued development of future ideas/ developments will become trivial or broken. In this case the players won't feel challenged/ or become bored.
Right now, for the upcoming ToD, cryptic is trying to back pedal into their original concepts. However, they are making changes in a vacuum. They want more balance across the classes in PvE, probably to make room for a new class(es) that wouldn't have a place in the current state of the game. However, they are doing it without noticing the ramifications of the changes. They are also testing these changes at a high gear score where their values are possibly skewed. Survivability and play will be more difficult for under geared players than what was originally intended. (Once again due to bad itemization and current play styles.)
The solution? In all honesty there isn't a solution that will make both sides happy. Players will be disgruntled because they still truly believe what they are playing was intended from the start. It's what they've become accustomed to for so long. While the developers will lose ground in their original idea, causing them to have alter every plan for future development.
(In my personal opinion, though I know no one will like hearing it, I feel they are making the right decision but they are doing it in the wrong way. Nerfs were necessary. Their major problem is with stat scaling than with class design. I feel that's where they should focus their efforts. Smaller design changes would always be welcome not large gouging ones they are proposing.)
(Sorry, I may have possibly derailed the thread. If it isn't fitting with the direction of the conversation, please remove it. I was just responding to a thought.)
What has that to do with the fact that for over a year CW has been primary dps and secondary control? did you read the bit that said "they should never have let it run so long" , read and comprehend before posting.
Also I'm pretty sure the class description at character creation doesn't say anything about primary and secondary roles ,if anything it mentions torrents of damage before it mentions anything about manipulating enemies.
My reading comprehension is quite fine thank you, and if you were to post the rest of the description at the class selection, people would see that the majority of the description is about it's CC abilities.
I'm not disagreeing that they should not have let the DPS capabilities over take their CC abilities, and thus you have the outrage you have now, however, please don't insult my intelligence, I was simply pointing out that the CW was never originally meant to be a DPS class.
Depending on how closely they follow the source material, I would expect the warlock to have "shadow walk" as a shift feature; maybe a combination of teleportation and short-term stealth. Their tab feature by the same source would be "warlock's curse," increasing their damage against the target.
Actually I am a bit tired of theory crafting the Warlocks, its time they added them to the preview server so we can begin testing these guys to make sure they are ready by release time of Mod 4. I mean we are a bit more than a month away and still no testing being done on warlocks at all. It almost has me thinking that we aren't getting the warlocks yet again and that would be a huge let down simply because I am growing bored of the classes available atm and would like some freshness.
It's a possibility, after all there's no official word on Warlocks coming for Mod4. The only hint we got is that new equipment for Warlock is dropping, but it was also driopping in Beta and it wasn't released then either.
I really hope they get here on Mod 4 though, I think a new class every 2 modules is good, untill we have a wider variety of them.
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
edited June 2014
The thing is, Dataminers have found Textures for the 'Scourge_Warlock', which aren't in the Live Server files, in addition of the drops everyone can have. NPC Warlocks are usually named appropriately.
Considering the hard deadline Cryptic faces with mod 4. Its highly likely that extra stuff, like a new class, Might end up dropped or pushed back. In order to stick to the deadline.
Cryptic rarely over commits, its a safe bet they wont announce anything that might end up pulled at the last minute. So while we are all expecting Warlocks in mod 4. Its not set in stone yet and is likely to be one of the first things shelved to make the release date.
I like that icon, I've seen it before, but I don't know where it's from.
It's the SW class icon from the beta client , and yes we only have about 7 weeks till the module is supposed to go live so if it is coming we could really do with starting to test it .
@lemonkingi was the one who originally datamined the stuff about the SW (among other things). The original thread can be found HERE.
My guess (a wild one) is itll be like the HR release, with the class hitting the Preview server 4 weeks before Mod4 release, so well have this time to test the class, since most of the current class changes are being pushed to this week patch (Preview, not Live).
Leanan Sidhe(not "The Dresde Files" fairy!)- NW Legit Channel Moderator
If SW doesn't show up for test on the preview shard within a month I think we can all safely dismiss the new class rumors as false hype. Just because gear dropped for the new class doesn't mean they have it ready to play/test. It's pretty obvious they've been working on the warlock for a long time, but for one reason (or many) have delayed it's release time and again.
Has there been any class that has 0 AoE/Control ability? Isn't the Trickster Rogue also labeled as a "striker" class? It seems they are just as well endowed with CC and AoE abilites.
Has there been any class that has 0 AoE/Control ability? Isn't the Trickster Rogue also labeled as a "striker" class? It seems they are just as well endowed with CC and AoE abilites.
Many classes have some sort of AoE and CC abilities to help with mobs and such, however, some classes have a lot more abilities and skills designated for that role than others.
Many classes have some sort of AoE and CC abilities to help with mobs and such, however, some classes have a lot more abilities and skills designated for that role than others.
Perhaps, but when you can only slot 3 or 4 abilities, and they can all be AoE, doesn't that pretty much place you on the same level as an "aoe" designated class? It's not like WoW where the total number of AoE vs total number of Single Target skills defines your role, because you can slot them all for use at the same time.
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
CW nerfed -> introduce SW with moar AoE power....
4SW+DC/GWF parties coming soon...
...just kidding, but if CW won't get CC buff then we might have a (class balance) problem (again) and TR will be send into oblivion of non useful PvE classes
But let's wait till 14 August to see how much of prophet I am :P
CW nerfed -> introduce SW with moar AoE power....
4SW+DC/GWF parties coming soon...
...just kidding, but if CW won't get CC buff then we might have a (class balance) problem (again) and TR will be send into oblivion of non useful PvE classes
But let's wait till 14 August to see how much of prophet I am :P
Hopefully SW is geared towards DoT/Burst ST with limited AoE and CC capabilities.
Hopefully SW is geared towards DoT/Burst ST with limited AoE and CC capabilities.
If we go by the 4e interpretation of warlocks (it's served us well thus far for other classes) then we're going to have a few things to look forward to
First, primary stat will be constitution, followed by intelligence and charisma. I expect to see 90% of the warlocks in he game as tieflings. Sadly, I shall be one of them.
Second, We're getting infernal warlocks, based on the whole focus on devils as pact makers Neverwinter has had thus far; this means we'll have ways of generating a large amount of Temp HP. Infernalocks are easily the toughest casters in the game, particularly since they're Con based.
Third, 4e has several things that warlocks do. You can build for DoTs, pure damage, AoEs, control, and even tanking, though good luck managing more than two of them at once (pacts that aren't infernal have more options, but we can't really do that at the momen, since these warlocks are very, very likely to be infernal). I don't doubt that these would make for appropriate paragon trees.
If we go by the 4e interpretation of warlocks (it's served us well thus far for other classes) then we're going to have a few things to look forward to
First, primary stat will be constitution, followed by intelligence and charisma. I expect to see 90% of the warlocks in he game as tieflings. Sadly, I shall be one of them.
Second, We're getting infernal warlocks, based on the whole focus on devils as pact makers Neverwinter has had thus far; this means we'll have ways of generating a large amount of Temp HP. Infernalocks are easily the toughest casters in the game, particularly since they're Con based.
Third, 4e has several things that warlocks do. You can build for DoTs, pure damage, AoEs, control, and even tanking, though good luck managing more than two of them at once (pacts that aren't infernal have more options, but we can't really do that at the momen, since these warlocks are very, very likely to be infernal). I don't doubt that these would make for appropriate paragon trees.
I'll be the first to say that I'm a total **** when it comes to DnD, but that sounds awesome! Would the Infernal Warlocks be geared more towards out lasting your enemy while DoT rots them or is there a number of directions that the Devs could have taken it?
Hopefully SW is geared towards DoT/Burst ST with limited AoE and CC capabilities.
Well, with entire (or at least most of it) NWO community being focused on dealing damage (except DCs) over anything else it won't matter how much CC or AoE SW will have, if he'll be better damage dealer than CW he will replace him and if GF will be able to hold aggro then there will be no point in CW in a party...
...but lets not jump into conclusions before first (at least) 13k SWs are properly geared.
Also SW can become same thing as HR is in PvE; decent damage dealer/de-buffer/(in some cases) tank but not necessary needed/wanted in party
PS give CW SS paragon path a Storm Cage and I'll be happy
Comments
It may not have been meant to do dps by Cryptic but in D&D thats exactly what they are supposed to do. They are AoE combatants designed to deal large amounts of damage spread out across the entire battle field in order to control the battle. They by D&D standards do not freeze a target in place and then entangle another and do nothing else. As a matter of fact they very rarely if ever control targets in such ways. What most people here don't understand is the word control before wizard does not mean hold a target in place it means control the battle field with AoE damage so as to force the enemy to split up and become less effective by punishing them for grouping together. In D&D settings and novels many times the CW is the one in charge of the battle directing their Melee counterparts where to go after splitting up the enemy forces thus enabling the melee to do what they do best by controlling the enemies actions and ability to stay together to defend themselves.
Another thing many folks don't seem to grasp is the CW is not the highest damage dealer in the game. GWF and TR's even HR's do more single target focused damage by far than the CW. What puts the CW on the top of your meters for those of you that watch the damage meters like hawks is his AoE. While the TR or GWF is bashing that boss mob for 20k-30k a pop the CW is hitting it for 10-15 but the difference is he is also bashing that boss mobs friends for some damage too, hence controlling the battle field. AoE is always going to look like they are doing more damage because they spread it out, hitting one mob for 10k vs. 5 mobs for 4k will always show up as less overall damage and even dps but that one mob for 10k was and is most likely more important because it was done to the strongest mob on the field while that AoE was designed to help take care of that big bad bosses friends so you can continue to pop off those big numbers on that boss.
If you want a class that freezes and entangles then I would suggest yelling at cryptic to make an Illusionist class or something along those lines designed to do the CCing your wanting because that is not what CW's are supposed to do.
Did you by chance happen to read the Control Wizard class description? CW was never meant to be a primary DPS role, it's primary role is CC.
What has that to do with the fact that for over a year CW has been primary dps and secondary control? did you read the bit that said "they should never have let it run so long" , read and comprehend before posting.
Also I'm pretty sure the class description at character creation doesn't say anything about primary and secondary roles ,if anything it mentions torrents of damage before it mentions anything about manipulating enemies.
I think this thread is about the potential upcoming Warlock Class, and not semantics on the CW... They have their own Mod 4 thread here.
Just trying to be helpful!
You are absolutely right. Cryptic (and Perfect World by extension) should not have let it run as long as they have. Their initial product goal was to have each class fulfill different roles in this game. These initial classes were to be developed as the base for a party makeup.
GF= Tank
GWF= Tank/ Dps hybrid
CW= AoE dmg/ Crowd control
DC= Party Support/ Dps
TR= Single Target Dps
Every new class there after would be made to help fill in gaps in the party compilation and to add variety to keep the player base interested with styles of play. However, along the way, development stagnated and the class system due to horrible itemizations (and ingenuity of the player base) got out of hand for them. This happens in every MMO where the players can tweak and control the settings and growth for their characters. Players will find ways to do things that the developers didn't expect. Most companies decide to run with it and make it seem that's what was intended all along. Other developers fight against it, nerfing these unexpected class builds into the ground, naturally causing an up roar.
Regardless of what they do, the player base will be angry. If you nerf those specs, players will shout foul and threaten to quit because the new cool way to play that allowed them to win will be gone. If they let it continue, the balance of the game will be threatened and the continued development of future ideas/ developments will become trivial or broken. In this case the players won't feel challenged/ or become bored.
Right now, for the upcoming ToD, cryptic is trying to back pedal into their original concepts. However, they are making changes in a vacuum. They want more balance across the classes in PvE, probably to make room for a new class(es) that wouldn't have a place in the current state of the game. However, they are doing it without noticing the ramifications of the changes. They are also testing these changes at a high gear score where their values are possibly skewed. Survivability and play will be more difficult for under geared players than what was originally intended. (Once again due to bad itemization and current play styles.)
The solution? In all honesty there isn't a solution that will make both sides happy. Players will be disgruntled because they still truly believe what they are playing was intended from the start. It's what they've become accustomed to for so long. While the developers will lose ground in their original idea, causing them to have alter every plan for future development.
(In my personal opinion, though I know no one will like hearing it, I feel they are making the right decision but they are doing it in the wrong way. Nerfs were necessary. Their major problem is with stat scaling than with class design. I feel that's where they should focus their efforts. Smaller design changes would always be welcome not large gouging ones they are proposing.)
(Sorry, I may have possibly derailed the thread. If it isn't fitting with the direction of the conversation, please remove it. I was just responding to a thought.)
My reading comprehension is quite fine thank you, and if you were to post the rest of the description at the class selection, people would see that the majority of the description is about it's CC abilities.
I'm not disagreeing that they should not have let the DPS capabilities over take their CC abilities, and thus you have the outrage you have now, however, please don't insult my intelligence, I was simply pointing out that the CW was never originally meant to be a DPS class.
Shadow Walk for the win bay-bay!
I really hope they get here on Mod 4 though, I think a new class every 2 modules is good, untill we have a wider variety of them.
Cryptic rarely over commits, its a safe bet they wont announce anything that might end up pulled at the last minute. So while we are all expecting Warlocks in mod 4. Its not set in stone yet and is likely to be one of the first things shelved to make the release date.
It's the SW class icon from the beta client , and yes we only have about 7 weeks till the module is supposed to go live so if it is coming we could really do with starting to test it .
My guess (a wild one) is itll be like the HR release, with the class hitting the Preview server 4 weeks before Mod4 release, so well have this time to test the class, since most of the current class changes are being pushed to this week patch (Preview, not Live).
Many classes have some sort of AoE and CC abilities to help with mobs and such, however, some classes have a lot more abilities and skills designated for that role than others.
Perhaps, but when you can only slot 3 or 4 abilities, and they can all be AoE, doesn't that pretty much place you on the same level as an "aoe" designated class? It's not like WoW where the total number of AoE vs total number of Single Target skills defines your role, because you can slot them all for use at the same time.
Yupp, my guess is DoT/ST oriented? Maybe some burst capabilities?
4SW+DC/GWF parties coming soon...
...just kidding, but if CW won't get CC buff then we might have a (class balance) problem (again) and TR will be send into oblivion of non useful PvE classes
But let's wait till 14 August to see how much of prophet I am :P
Hopefully SW is geared towards DoT/Burst ST with limited AoE and CC capabilities.
First, primary stat will be constitution, followed by intelligence and charisma. I expect to see 90% of the warlocks in he game as tieflings. Sadly, I shall be one of them.
Second, We're getting infernal warlocks, based on the whole focus on devils as pact makers Neverwinter has had thus far; this means we'll have ways of generating a large amount of Temp HP. Infernalocks are easily the toughest casters in the game, particularly since they're Con based.
Third, 4e has several things that warlocks do. You can build for DoTs, pure damage, AoEs, control, and even tanking, though good luck managing more than two of them at once (pacts that aren't infernal have more options, but we can't really do that at the momen, since these warlocks are very, very likely to be infernal). I don't doubt that these would make for appropriate paragon trees.
I'll be the first to say that I'm a total **** when it comes to DnD, but that sounds awesome! Would the Infernal Warlocks be geared more towards out lasting your enemy while DoT rots them or is there a number of directions that the Devs could have taken it?
So i'm expecting a debuff feat tree, One that focuses on AoE/Single target damage, and a Dot tree.
Also like rangers, I expect we will only see a single paragon path at release.
...but lets not jump into conclusions before first (at least) 13k SWs are properly geared.
Also SW can become same thing as HR is in PvE; decent damage dealer/de-buffer/(in some cases) tank but not necessary needed/wanted in party
PS give CW SS paragon path a Storm Cage and I'll be happy