I wish they'd step away from random drops. Or have them improved by increasing the drop chance everytime you didn't get it. Thus the drop chance will eventually be 100% and you'll get the item (the chance will reset when the item drops).
I was lucky with my GWF and got the hammer on the first try. But I haven't got the gloves yet. I'm sure about one thing though: I will never ever try to get the things with my other toons. It's plain boring having to run HEs over and over again while having to rely on luck alone.
I already mentioned it elsewhere that they should make two ways to get an item: one by constantly farming (long way) and one by luck like now (short way). This way, noone has to be frustrated but, as it is now, they try to continue their doing ... till the dog bites back.
OK, as far as I understood, dealing or taking damage, and healing increases your participation in an epic encounter and allows you to get the gauntlets + main hand.
Since my rewards for Epics are rather low (75 raw ice, +Rank 4 enchant for a verey long fight) compared to anything else (small encounter iften gives me a rank 5 enchant)
But I have many-many questions now:
1. What else counts?
1.1 If I revive somebody, do I get extra points?
1.2 Since if I revive somebody, he's going to earn more points, thus decrease my contribution, so it makes more sense not to revive to increase the chance to receive a drop?
2. Heals also count, which ones?
2.1 Do self heals via potions also count?
2.2 Do heals via life steal count?
2.3 Do heals via item sets/enchantments/boons count (purified black ice accessoirs)?
2.4 Is there a difference between self heals and heals on allies (including reference to 2.3)?
3. Taking damage also counts - damage received, mitigated, or total damage you would receive?
3.1 Will you receive then higher score for being not in Astral Shield / HG and having lower def stats, or other way around?
3.2 In case you're PvP marked, does damage from a hostile PvP marked player also count? (including reference to rest)
4. My main is a Buff/Debuff Devoted Cleric, all his powers are there to boost allies, does it increase my participation?
4.1 My AS provides defense and a buff via Linked Spirit (at least it should), but if I'm right, it boost others in a way that they receive much more points if I help, meaning that it is counterproductive if I want to get my items - am I right?
4.2 My HG boosts DPS of allies and decreases DPS of enemies, meaning that it increases the points of others for DPS (my damage is rather low) and it lowers the points of all (including me) for damage taken - also counterproductive?
4.3 My Daunting Light rips the Armor off the enemies, which should also increase the DPS of others, thus being counterproductive to me??? Similar situation is with Devine glow and Prophecy of Doom, am i right?
4.4 Or - does the damage of my allies somehow count for my contribution?
5. I'm a causal player, spending not more then 3 hours a day for the game (I would like to spend less, but no idea how I then could improve my chars). Assuming I would play only 1.5h a day:
5.1 I've been in several epic encounters now, and got one main, but not for my class - what is the real chance to get it?
5.2 Which powers would you suggest for me, to get it in the foreseeable future - let's say 3 months?
5.3 How can I improve my chances to get into an epic (without all these: pls invite if remo/riders)?
5.4 Do the items also drop from non-epics? If yes, would my chances be better, if I stick to them, instead of epics?
5.5 Concerning all the situation about clerics (we do lots of contribution, but little rewards), I'm serious about change to another class (you'll not believe me - a gwf!!!), from what I know now it will take me a week or less to get him to lvl 60, and not more then 10 days to get him into the icewind dale.... Most of my friends who are GWF have their items already (some of them have two bracers, and even main hands, not counting for the PvP compaign rewards) and I have played a GWF already, so personally I prefer to be one (even though I love my cleric) - wouldn't it be faster for me to get my full Black Ice Set this way? Instead of running with a DC and supporting others? (Or the GF I started few weeks ago but gave it already up)
I'm open for a discussion and any further suggestions. Thanks a lot in advance!!!
This is a great question/discussion point / topic - I run a 17K cw and I too am having trouble getting the items -Even though in many cases I have been first to start damage, control/dps adds and nuke the boss yet a cw who turned up after 50% got the item I can output some good damage [even in pvp spec] what i want to know is why this other person got an item when it is thought to be a contribution type reward system when I know full well that I contributed more to the encounter than said person
My question here is not only about the way the drop system works, but also about the calculation of "contribution" and probable counter-productivity of certain strategies.
I took my DC as an example, but I know that some CW's and TR's (not only) concentrate on group buffs or enemy debuffs (smoke bomb of TR).
Many people say, that the chance to get an item is around 1%, but if it depends on contribution, how are those two things related? I've heard about people who were running epics and had over 100 of them - without any result, and some ppl got their bracers in 20 minutes.
Drop system changed - you would say? But how can it be, that after the drop system adjustments the same person received another pair of bracers, while I still have none?
If the chance to get one item is 1% it would mean that you will need over 1000 tries to have a chance of <4% of not having them (which is still bellow 100% of having them).
But then, if the chance is 1%, then (if those two event would be coupled) the event of having two pairs is as rare as 0.01%, which would mean that I would have to run the game 48h a day, 50 days a week, 560 weeks a year to get two of them a day before I die. Which can't be true, and there must be something behind it. There must be an algorithm which decides upon contribution and a randomizing part. If we take each fight as a closed game, and the chance to get the bracers depend on contribution, this one percent should be related to the random part only. So we would have a scorecard which depends on both, your contribution and a random number (contr*rnd). So maybe this rnd makes it somehow to 1%. Since the Random element is not controllable by us, we can only affect the contribution. But, if our (mine) assumptions about the contribution are right, then many strategies are counterproductive.
Taking spill-over effects into account it makes more sense to stick to pure damaging (I would call them egoistic) powers. Even for comrades of your group. But it would probably make sense to run group-wise into those encounters being marked for PvP, since then at least the buffs are only for your group and not the rest (maybe the debuffs also).
And here the problem rises, as a poor supporter my contr part seems to be rather low, and the only way to increase it - become "egoistic". Or I could change to another class, where "egoism" is rewarded (GWF). At least as long as there is no clear reward system for being "altruistic" it seems to me a better option. But this seems to be rather counterintuitive for me. I am pretty sure, that there is already a mechanism, which would allow supporter builds to get the item, or if there is none, we could encourage the devs to change it somehow. Or if it is impossible, or will not be implemented in the foreseeable future, those of us who just want to enjoy the game would be able to make the right decision and change their class. Which would probably not fit their interests, but at least their lifestyle.
From other games I know that devs love it to make their players think about new stuff and improvements. In some games you have to figure out how something works and how the stats you have count towards your powers. And only after the community finds the right numbers, the devs start to reveal them. This is actually very-very interesting, and I want to somehow start a similar discussion. Especially as some of us have already learned, that Kessels Retreat has a special strategy which goes beyond the simple DPS.
(sorry for my weird english, I'm fighting with some economics stuff right now)
0
lcwwpyjhjsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Just make sure u arrive early, and do some dps. My TR get the bracer even without 'great sucess', while my GWF get the weapon when beholder was around 40% hp left when i arrived (with very minimal player there as i remember, mostly dead).
As for finding epic heroic, alternative way is by changing map. just keep changing map between dwarf valley and icewind dale (assume you are finding both weapon and bracer). Once your current instance is full, automatically you will be transfer into a different instance when you transfer into other map.
Example would be icewind dale (#11) > dwarf valley (#3) > icewind dale (#18) > and so on.
Thanks for the reply. Never used the quest log before.
Still, it does not answer my questions. I'm asking those not because I want to complain, I want to understand and make it better accessible for others.
Just as an example..... I started Black Ice Mother lode almost from the very beginning....
I died 3 times, revived two people, killed lots of hunters, and was fighting against the giant (he was running after me all the time)
Result: 75 ice and a coalescent potion + some green stuff......
hmmmm 20 minutes fight for such a reward?????????????
OK, one small result:
When I exchange the Daunting Light against Sunburst, my rewards improve slightly....
I will try other powers and will see if there will be any change.
0
unrealized1977Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 100
edited June 2014
Hey Admins, Mods and Who ever else wants to put in their feedback.
The black ice gloves, and weapons are still really not dropping as frequently as one would hope. It took me on my TR to get my black ice gloves over 5 weeks, and that update you did to help out the overall situation to me didn't help on any other character I have. Right now I am farming my gloves on my GWF, well 3 weeks now still not a single drop not even my weapons. You have already made changes to have Kessel's Skirmish drop the belt and made it BOE. Can you please consider doing the same either allow the gloves/weapons to become BOE, or allow them to drop from Kessel's skirmish and make them BOE, so this way we have a change of getting them off AH.
I see looking at various screenshots, that HE's are going to be a part of module 4 as well, please take a lesson from mod 3 and make the drops BOE, because I do not think a single gamer here wants to farm for weeks and weeks to get a gear set.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited June 2014
Oh you're playing a DC. The encounter wants you to heal, not fight. Sunburst, Forgemaster's, Astral Shield, Astral Seals.
I wish they would be more open with how drop rates are worked out , it looks like we MIGHT be getting HE's on the lower level maps in module 4 so it is going to be super frustrating if stuff drops from them players want but have no idea what they need to do to maximize their chances of getting them xD
Obviously healing alone is not enough!!!!
Just tried out to run with heals only:
Sun Burst, AS, Healing Word with Healing Lore + astral seal.
The effect is the same as with DPS only.
And actually a question would arise.... A cleric is a cleric and not healer.... it is a leader+supporter class. I know many clerics who run with buffs+debuffs only. And the problem is, that the configuration for these two specializations is different.
We really need either more testing or more transparency.... because already now many players get frustrating....
One of the questions is: will I improve my chances by having better equipment?
So, how do enchantments affect? Profound, Purified or corrupted set???
I think my cleric has just been real lucky so far..10 Epic HEs and 25 Major HEs...2 bracers and 2 main hands. And two of those came on Majors before the changes to scoring. FF(w div) and seal, I think FF(w div) is the big one that a lot miss out on. It heals a lot to those who are around the boss or mob you use it on. Now my GWF has been unlucky with the bracers...have done 21 Epic HEs...well over 100 Major HEs...2 main hands and no bracers but 4 of the elk tribe/hammerstone epics. Since the patch its been much worse getting anything good at all for my GWF. If it wasn't for the bracers the Epic HE's really are just wastes of time for my GWF now. I've actually been trying to do as much solo's on the Major HE's before others get there to try to get it from there instead of the Epic HE's.
And another question, which probably concerns DC only (I think there some other classes can do the same, maybe GF?):
Do temporary hitpoints count as heals? (I would say - obviously not) I often use devine shield, which increases defense and grants lots of temp HP..... (my HG does not heal).
My At-Will power also gives temporary hitpoints.....
And the question about the heals from items is still not covered.... and I can not test it out anyhow, since I lack all of those items, boons, companions or whatever....
Full DPS mode:
Rank 4 Enchantment + 75 Black ice.
I killed one of the 6 Giants alone, and helped with others.
I was the first one there.
Similar to non DPS......
Just another DPS test - 75 ice and a rank 5 black ice enchantment..... bit better, then before.
This time with searing light.....
Going to have some other tests soon....
From what I just figured out:
There are many ppl who get nothing, and some people who has already two items.... so there is causality.
Another funny test:
I went it and tried to fight.... got killed.
Result so far: 0 kills, 0 heals, only some dps. I remained at fire for all the time.
Loot: 75 ice and a Rank 5 enchantment.
OK, now I get angry!!!!!!
A GF, who is playing for two months has already double pack of everything.... Weapon, gauntlets and the belt......
WHAT IS GOING ON?????
If nothing will change, I'll start to submit Bug reports..... really... after each and every encounter I do.
Maybe there will be a reaction.
For me it seems, that I should use the time, before the GWF's and Mages get nerfed, and give up on my clerics completelly.....
There seem to be no responds from devs.
I get worser loots from ice wind then everybody else (besides other clerics and some GF's), I still have no idea how to get a tripple-kill with my DC.....
I'll give it some time, but starting in few days I'll make my DC a secondary char and build up....
I wish there would be some more input from different classes here..... not only me, and not only DC's....
If I am limited to my personal observations, there is no way to find anything out....
0
termarisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2014
I couldn't agree with you more as I too have spent the past 5 weeks trying in vain to get either of the black ice gloves/main hand. I have to wonder if it is more of a problem for permastealth TRs than it should be. Because I concentrate on staying stealthed I dish out less damage than normal executioners. So to counter this I have (following advice I read on the forums) taken to paying special attention to what the encounter is asking me to do and make this a high priority e.g. in Rescue Prospectors I have personally released 6 prospectors myself and dealt significant damage using DF/Lurkers but NOTHING seems to work. I have done over 100 Major encounters and 40-50 Epic and the best I have ever seen is two Epic elk items in all that time and they weren't even for my class! I've completed the campaign and made all the crafted black ice items I can at the moment so all I seem to have left is pure endless repetitive grind with little hope of even getting what I need.
To be honest I am way past the point of wanting to give up so I wholeheartedly second your suggestion to make the gloves/main hand BOE as that way I at least have a hope of completing the black ice armour/weapon sets. I have never felt the need to moan about something this strongly in Neverwinter and I've been playing since early Beta but this is just driving me crazy with frustration and I am glad to hear I am not alone. It has even driven me to actually post on the forums for the first time so please please Cryptic do something to make our lives less painful as TRs and I expect HRs and maybe GFs/DCs. From what I've read the only people who seem to be swimming in these items are CWs and GWFs. Now I shall go and pray to Tymora for a few hours and hope she blesses us unfortunates and that this message gets through to a Dev that things just aren't working fairly at present and this same mechanism is going to be used in Mod 4 .......... we really do need the aid of the gods if that is the case! Nuff said I think.
Yeah once I hit 35 days on the campaign I gave up trying to get the drops, the sets aren't even worth the trouble. DC and CW might be better in PVP with these sets but the other classes hardly need them, especially since all procs have 1 minute + internal cooldowns.
Comments
The raid the raiders god knows when its gonna be live... As well as all others he.
Good luck all gfs out there. Omg
I was lucky with my GWF and got the hammer on the first try. But I haven't got the gloves yet. I'm sure about one thing though: I will never ever try to get the things with my other toons. It's plain boring having to run HEs over and over again while having to rely on luck alone.
It is frustrating.
Remorhaz X32
Raid the Raiders X17
Black Ice Domination X54
Beholder X26
Prospector's Attack X17
Drops,
Elk Tribe Blades
Elk Tribe Shield
X6 Crafting Materials (Epic)
Countless Green/Blue Crafting Materials.
Yea.....Looking for a new game to play. Probably wont be an Arc game. Ever. Again.
aleluya bro!!!
Im in the same boat and thinking the same as you!!!
Since my rewards for Epics are rather low (75 raw ice, +Rank 4 enchant for a verey long fight) compared to anything else (small encounter iften gives me a rank 5 enchant)
But I have many-many questions now:
1. What else counts?
1.1 If I revive somebody, do I get extra points?
1.2 Since if I revive somebody, he's going to earn more points, thus decrease my contribution, so it makes more sense not to revive to increase the chance to receive a drop?
2. Heals also count, which ones?
2.1 Do self heals via potions also count?
2.2 Do heals via life steal count?
2.3 Do heals via item sets/enchantments/boons count (purified black ice accessoirs)?
2.4 Is there a difference between self heals and heals on allies (including reference to 2.3)?
3. Taking damage also counts - damage received, mitigated, or total damage you would receive?
3.1 Will you receive then higher score for being not in Astral Shield / HG and having lower def stats, or other way around?
3.2 In case you're PvP marked, does damage from a hostile PvP marked player also count? (including reference to rest)
4. My main is a Buff/Debuff Devoted Cleric, all his powers are there to boost allies, does it increase my participation?
4.1 My AS provides defense and a buff via Linked Spirit (at least it should), but if I'm right, it boost others in a way that they receive much more points if I help, meaning that it is counterproductive if I want to get my items - am I right?
4.2 My HG boosts DPS of allies and decreases DPS of enemies, meaning that it increases the points of others for DPS (my damage is rather low) and it lowers the points of all (including me) for damage taken - also counterproductive?
4.3 My Daunting Light rips the Armor off the enemies, which should also increase the DPS of others, thus being counterproductive to me??? Similar situation is with Devine glow and Prophecy of Doom, am i right?
4.4 Or - does the damage of my allies somehow count for my contribution?
5. I'm a causal player, spending not more then 3 hours a day for the game (I would like to spend less, but no idea how I then could improve my chars). Assuming I would play only 1.5h a day:
5.1 I've been in several epic encounters now, and got one main, but not for my class - what is the real chance to get it?
5.2 Which powers would you suggest for me, to get it in the foreseeable future - let's say 3 months?
5.3 How can I improve my chances to get into an epic (without all these: pls invite if remo/riders)?
5.4 Do the items also drop from non-epics? If yes, would my chances be better, if I stick to them, instead of epics?
5.5 Concerning all the situation about clerics (we do lots of contribution, but little rewards), I'm serious about change to another class (you'll not believe me - a gwf!!!), from what I know now it will take me a week or less to get him to lvl 60, and not more then 10 days to get him into the icewind dale.... Most of my friends who are GWF have their items already (some of them have two bracers, and even main hands, not counting for the PvP compaign rewards) and I have played a GWF already, so personally I prefer to be one (even though I love my cleric) - wouldn't it be faster for me to get my full Black Ice Set this way? Instead of running with a DC and supporting others? (Or the GF I started few weeks ago but gave it already up)
I'm open for a discussion and any further suggestions. Thanks a lot in advance!!!
I took my DC as an example, but I know that some CW's and TR's (not only) concentrate on group buffs or enemy debuffs (smoke bomb of TR).
Many people say, that the chance to get an item is around 1%, but if it depends on contribution, how are those two things related? I've heard about people who were running epics and had over 100 of them - without any result, and some ppl got their bracers in 20 minutes.
Drop system changed - you would say? But how can it be, that after the drop system adjustments the same person received another pair of bracers, while I still have none?
If the chance to get one item is 1% it would mean that you will need over 1000 tries to have a chance of <4% of not having them (which is still bellow 100% of having them).
But then, if the chance is 1%, then (if those two event would be coupled) the event of having two pairs is as rare as 0.01%, which would mean that I would have to run the game 48h a day, 50 days a week, 560 weeks a year to get two of them a day before I die. Which can't be true, and there must be something behind it. There must be an algorithm which decides upon contribution and a randomizing part. If we take each fight as a closed game, and the chance to get the bracers depend on contribution, this one percent should be related to the random part only. So we would have a scorecard which depends on both, your contribution and a random number (contr*rnd). So maybe this rnd makes it somehow to 1%. Since the Random element is not controllable by us, we can only affect the contribution. But, if our (mine) assumptions about the contribution are right, then many strategies are counterproductive.
Taking spill-over effects into account it makes more sense to stick to pure damaging (I would call them egoistic) powers. Even for comrades of your group. But it would probably make sense to run group-wise into those encounters being marked for PvP, since then at least the buffs are only for your group and not the rest (maybe the debuffs also).
And here the problem rises, as a poor supporter my contr part seems to be rather low, and the only way to increase it - become "egoistic". Or I could change to another class, where "egoism" is rewarded (GWF). At least as long as there is no clear reward system for being "altruistic" it seems to me a better option. But this seems to be rather counterintuitive for me. I am pretty sure, that there is already a mechanism, which would allow supporter builds to get the item, or if there is none, we could encourage the devs to change it somehow. Or if it is impossible, or will not be implemented in the foreseeable future, those of us who just want to enjoy the game would be able to make the right decision and change their class. Which would probably not fit their interests, but at least their lifestyle.
From other games I know that devs love it to make their players think about new stuff and improvements. In some games you have to figure out how something works and how the stats you have count towards your powers. And only after the community finds the right numbers, the devs start to reveal them. This is actually very-very interesting, and I want to somehow start a similar discussion. Especially as some of us have already learned, that Kessels Retreat has a special strategy which goes beyond the simple DPS.
(sorry for my weird english, I'm fighting with some economics stuff right now)
Press quest log > achievement > heroic encounter (show available) > check how many epic heroic encounter done.
here's my log.
Pre-patch
GWF - 27 epic heroic, 2 weapon 1 bracer.
CW - 23 epic heroic, 1 weapon 1 bracer.
After-patch
TR - 3 epic heroic, 1 bracer (havent unlock dwarf valley)
Just make sure u arrive early, and do some dps. My TR get the bracer even without 'great sucess', while my GWF get the weapon when beholder was around 40% hp left when i arrived (with very minimal player there as i remember, mostly dead).
As for finding epic heroic, alternative way is by changing map. just keep changing map between dwarf valley and icewind dale (assume you are finding both weapon and bracer). Once your current instance is full, automatically you will be transfer into a different instance when you transfer into other map.
Example would be icewind dale (#11) > dwarf valley (#3) > icewind dale (#18) > and so on.
Still, it does not answer my questions. I'm asking those not because I want to complain, I want to understand and make it better accessible for others.
And another question, what happens with me if I die during an encounter?
I died 3 times, revived two people, killed lots of hunters, and was fighting against the giant (he was running after me all the time)
Result: 75 ice and a coalescent potion + some green stuff......
hmmmm 20 minutes fight for such a reward?????????????
When I exchange the Daunting Light against Sunburst, my rewards improve slightly....
I will try other powers and will see if there will be any change.
The black ice gloves, and weapons are still really not dropping as frequently as one would hope. It took me on my TR to get my black ice gloves over 5 weeks, and that update you did to help out the overall situation to me didn't help on any other character I have. Right now I am farming my gloves on my GWF, well 3 weeks now still not a single drop not even my weapons. You have already made changes to have Kessel's Skirmish drop the belt and made it BOE. Can you please consider doing the same either allow the gloves/weapons to become BOE, or allow them to drop from Kessel's skirmish and make them BOE, so this way we have a change of getting them off AH.
I see looking at various screenshots, that HE's are going to be a part of module 4 as well, please take a lesson from mod 3 and make the drops BOE, because I do not think a single gamer here wants to farm for weeks and weeks to get a gear set.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Just tried out to run with heals only:
Sun Burst, AS, Healing Word with Healing Lore + astral seal.
The effect is the same as with DPS only.
And actually a question would arise.... A cleric is a cleric and not healer.... it is a leader+supporter class. I know many clerics who run with buffs+debuffs only. And the problem is, that the configuration for these two specializations is different.
We really need either more testing or more transparency.... because already now many players get frustrating....
One of the questions is: will I improve my chances by having better equipment?
So, how do enchantments affect? Profound, Purified or corrupted set???
Do temporary hitpoints count as heals? (I would say - obviously not) I often use devine shield, which increases defense and grants lots of temp HP..... (my HG does not heal).
My At-Will power also gives temporary hitpoints.....
And the question about the heals from items is still not covered.... and I can not test it out anyhow, since I lack all of those items, boons, companions or whatever....
When I got bracers I just jumped the boss which was half-way-dead, so these drops seems very random to me.
Rank 4 Enchantment + 75 Black ice.
I killed one of the 6 Giants alone, and helped with others.
I was the first one there.
Similar to non DPS......
This time with searing light.....
Going to have some other tests soon....
From what I just figured out:
There are many ppl who get nothing, and some people who has already two items.... so there is causality.
I went it and tried to fight.... got killed.
Result so far: 0 kills, 0 heals, only some dps. I remained at fire for all the time.
Loot: 75 ice and a Rank 5 enchantment.
Besides, I receive blue profession resources sometimes, never received purple.
My wife - a gwf gets one purple item on average each fifth-sixth time.
A GF, who is playing for two months has already double pack of everything.... Weapon, gauntlets and the belt......
WHAT IS GOING ON?????
If nothing will change, I'll start to submit Bug reports..... really... after each and every encounter I do.
Maybe there will be a reaction.
There seem to be no responds from devs.
I get worser loots from ice wind then everybody else (besides other clerics and some GF's), I still have no idea how to get a tripple-kill with my DC.....
I'll give it some time, but starting in few days I'll make my DC a secondary char and build up....
If I am limited to my personal observations, there is no way to find anything out....
To be honest I am way past the point of wanting to give up so I wholeheartedly second your suggestion to make the gloves/main hand BOE as that way I at least have a hope of completing the black ice armour/weapon sets. I have never felt the need to moan about something this strongly in Neverwinter and I've been playing since early Beta but this is just driving me crazy with frustration and I am glad to hear I am not alone. It has even driven me to actually post on the forums for the first time so please please Cryptic do something to make our lives less painful as TRs and I expect HRs and maybe GFs/DCs. From what I've read the only people who seem to be swimming in these items are CWs and GWFs. Now I shall go and pray to Tymora for a few hours and hope she blesses us unfortunates and that this message gets through to a Dev that things just aren't working fairly at present and this same mechanism is going to be used in Mod 4 .......... we really do need the aid of the gods if that is the case! Nuff said I think.