How soon do people forget that things have flipped from what they once were... The gwf, once one of the least favorite pvp/pve classes, is now being complained about by classes (primarily CW) that used to be the top spot for pvp/pve... Oh my, how the scales have shifted, haven't they?
And THATS why calling for "nerfs" or "buffs" in the end doesn't help anything...
Actually Regen GWFs back in the day were complained about as they could tank 4-5 players, no problem. Not much has changed.
It's just that more people used to play classes like rogue because it was the easier class to get into. Now GWF is the easy win class so you see way more and have more complaints because it is more prevelant.
No, I actually have pvp'd before the roar fiasco, and without roar they are still very over-the-top.
Get rid of threatening rush too (or put it on a cooldown) and maybe, just maybe, we see a glimmer of hope. Still would probably need a dmg reduction too.
I don't deprive a class of its abilities which belong to it. In this case, ranged attacks don't belong to Fighter.
Nope, that doesn't work in any reasonable sense nor does it address what was pointed out to you.
Sorry that you haven't yet figured out how to fight GF's and GWF's. I'm sure that if you keep practicing you'll figure out some tactics that work for you.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Whether or not GWF's need to be toned down or not is inconsequences to this thread.
Bottom line is that even though I think GWF's have their slew of problems Frontline Surge is not one of them. It doesn't hit that hard and while it is a midrange attack it is not that hard to avoid. The ultimate proof is all of you are crying about how powerful it is on a GWF and not how powerful it is on a GF.
It's pure misdirected complaining because it is not game breaking OP on a GF. Plain and simple: GWF's are OP in other areas and this power just helps point that out.
Everybody complaining about how OP GWF's are is not complaining about the same thing IantheWizard is complaining about. Ian only cares that this is a midrange power on a melee class.
Ian in pen and paper when I have to fight your behind I'll take out a bow and fire arrows at you. We can't do that in Neverwinter and the way the way the game is designed as an Action Combat MMO makes it impossible and impractical to even consider implementing. Melee classes need their tools to reach ranged characters to have some sort of chance. Get over it.
They need a lot more toning down than that. To think that is all they need is so naively turning a blind eye to the problem it isn't funny.
Whether or not they "need" to be toned down ends up in the devs hand...
But to think that CWs cc wasn't a problem(for both pve and pvp) is also turning a blind eye to the problem as well.
ie, lets talk about "balance", not nerfing something just because you don't want to strategize/change tactics to work around a problem.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Actually Regen GWFs back in the day were complained about as they could tank 4-5 players, no problem. Not much has changed.
It's just that more people used to play classes like rogue because it was the easier class to get into. Now GWF is the easy win class so you see way more and have more complaints because it is more prevelant.
Actually back then Unstoppable wasn't as good as it was now. You could NOT activate it as often(although it could heal for more), hence getting grouped on certainly meant your death.
CW was an overpowered class in past metas, because their cc was not target capped, had way better sustainable(DoT) abilities, and burst damage, not to mention high recovery equaling superior rotation capabilities than everyone else.
Permacontrol was ALSO complained about back in the day, btw...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Ian in pen and paper when I have to fight your behind I'll take out a bow and fire arrows at you. We can't do that in Neverwinter and the way the way the game is designed as an Action Combat MMO makes it impossible and impractical to even consider implementing. Melee classes need their tools to reach ranged characters to have some sort of chance. Get over it.
And that's all my defending points in a nutshell. Thank you .
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Actually back then Unstoppable wasn't as good as it was now. You could NOT activate it as often(although it could heal for more), hence getting grouped on certainly meant your death.
There was a bug where unstoppable would not activate when clicked. It did not happen that often, maybe once or twice a match, but it did need fixing and was fixed. If that bug did not occur then a regen GWF could and did tank whole teams.
Rogues currently have a similar crippling bug that has been around longer.
To whomever said why is FLS on GWF a problem and not GF...well GWF is way more mobile than a GF. On a GF it works, on a GWF it contributes to the "over-the-topness". The class is full of prones, it doesn't really need a mid-range one.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Just to make this clear: read the OP. Read his comments.
Nothing you said lines up with his complaints. I do think GWF's need to be toned down. He's complaining that it's a melee class and they shouldn't have any midrange abilities to be able to even have a chance against casters. No, I don't think anybody agrees with that.
And even if you complain they have too many tools to reach ranged classes this is the only tool which overlaps with the struggling GF. You can name any other tool to reached ranged characters and I would be willing to listen, for this...no. This is nothing more than a person complaining their wizard can't win from ranged.
This is, afterall, the same person who made a nonsense complaint about the GF only power Lunging Strike. He wants utter dominance over melee classes by removing any tool to even reach the wizards. Plain and simple. And you are not arguing the same thing as him.
To whomever said why is FLS on GWF a problem and not GF...well GWF is way more mobile than a GF. On a GF it works, on a GWF it contributes to the "over-the-topness". The class is full of prones, it doesn't really need a mid-range one.
We have a winner. So go and suggest how those mobility features are should be toned down and let's start there rather than suggesting to hurt the GF's.
Even without frontline surge the GWF would still be an extremely durable and mobile fighter. Frontline Surge Helps but it is not the cause. You'd be better off complaining about unstopable stopping you from keeping them out of range of Frontline Surge rather than complaining about Frontline Surge.
Certainly it helps them but its the shark repellent batspray on their utility belt. Focus on the baterang, armor, x-ray vision...etc.
There was a bug where unstoppable would not activate when clicked. It did not happen that often, maybe once or twice a match, but it did need fixing and was fixed. If that bug did not occur then a regen GWF could and did tank whole teams.
What you forget is, CWs were getting away with a lot more back then as well. You forget that CWs abilities have been target capped, cooldown nerfed, functions changed, etc...
EDIT: Not saying that they were too horrible back then. But theres a reason CW abilities, as well as others have been nerfed, whereas GWFs are at the top NOW, due to their buffs applied OVER TIME.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
What you forget is, CWs were getting away with a lot more back then as well. You forget that CWs abilities have been target capped, cooldown nerfed, functions changed, etc...
EDIT: Not saying that they were too horrible back then. But theres a reason CW abilities, as well as others have been nerfed, whereas GWFs are at the top NOW, due to their buffs applied OVER TIME.
Yup I do remember that. Especially now that you remind me!
The thing I am trying to say is that the potential for GWF to be godly has always been there. It is not new at all that they are a (too) powerful class. People just chose not to roll regen GWF before. Maybe the entry cost was too high, idk, I think it is because rogues were easier back then.
We have a winner. So go and suggest how those mobility features are should be toned down and let's start there rather than suggesting to hurt the GF's.
Even without frontline surge the GWF would still be an extremely durable and mobile fighter. Frontline Surge Helps but it is not the cause. You'd be better off complaining about unstopable stopping you from keeping them out of range of Frontline Surge rather than complaining about Frontline Surge.
Certainly it helps them but its the shark repellent batspray on their utility belt. Focus on the baterang, armor, x-ray vision...etc.
Off the top of my head I would say:
Threatening rush needs to be either put on cool down or limited to 3(?) charges with a 10 sec charge regeneration. (Not for GF though as it their only gap closer). Give it a new name if you have to
Diminishing returns on prones. (Yes for GF too). IMO no one should be able to be CC'd to death with no chance to survive. That is only an opinion though. I would say just start with prones as doing all CC would really hurt CWs.
Instead of diminishing returns a possibility exists to experiment in giving all paragon paths a control " break free". GWF and master infiltrator already have one.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
There are likely a number of factors.
Other classes have been toned down while GWF kept getting buffs.
New gear, especially for PvP, has been survival centric.
Multiple new armor enchants have been added which improve durability like barkshield.
Which is where I am at. It's not Frontline Surge. It plays a role but it is not the cause. Again the OP also complained about Lunging Strike. He's not worried about GWF's. He's complaining he doesn't have an "I Win" button against ALL melee fighters.
He didn't even mention GWF's...that's all you guys with the more valid concerns. So do understand that when we say leave Frontline Surge alone it's not saying "GWF's are perfectly fine" as much as "Frontline Surge is perfectly fine."
EDIT - Prones and their duration should be the focus IMO. Address that and see where we are at.
Frontline surge is fine. The guardian fighter class is the only class that cannot get away from FLS. Wizards can teleport, clerics can slide, Rangers and Rogues can dodge, GWF can sprint. Towards the person casting FLS, or sideways and not backwards (of course). FLS may have a long attack range but the width of the skill's effect area, is clearly it's drawback.
Yup I do remember that. Especially now that you remind me!
The thing I am trying to say is that the potential for GWF to be godly has always been there. It is not new at all that they are a (too) powerful class. People just chose not to roll regen GWF before. Maybe the entry cost was too high, idk, I think it is because rogues were easier back then.
Ah, theres the crux of the problem too though. Look at TRs past. Permastealth existed back in open beta too, but burst damage TRs weren't nerfed yet. They were the greatest single target burst damagers back in the day, and permastealth was more a minority of TR playstyle. BUT look what happened. Their nerfs drove TRs to go permastealth. I don't like the playstyle, but I also cant blame them for it either. Look at HR pathfinders. Its basically the same deal: They nerf some of their dps, driving some to choose the new fotm pathfinder tanky build, and then complain about it!
I really do despise what qqing has done in the long run to the game.
P.S. I have a swordmaster GWF(my oldest character I might add) built back in open beta. I have NOT changed his spec, and still prefer how he is, and he can still kick butt. I do admit though, that I made an Iron Vanguard GWF now, and if I put them in an arena, the IV GWF would most likely win. He deals less dps, but his tankiness affords him to hit unstoppable a little more than my SM GWF, and basically that's all GWF matches come down to.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Okay. So it's still because of "class equality" that a melee class can have ranged attacks? Then how about I gain the ability to have unstoppable or use shield when a melee is doing close combat with me? Fair?
Every class has its unique abilities. It's impossible for all classes to have the same performance in the same content. You need to accept a truth that some classes are just able to have better performance than other classes in a certain contents. Giving a melee class ranged attacks because of the pointless "class equality" can only make things more ridiculous and more unfair.
Ah, theres the crux of the problem too though. Look at TRs past. Permastealth existed back in open beta too, but burst damage TRs weren't nerfed yet. They were the greatest single target burst damagers back in the day, and permastealth was more a minority of TR playstyle. BUT look what happened. Their nerfs drove TRs to go permastealth. I don't like the playstyle, but I also cant blame them for it either. Look at HR pathfinders. Its basically the same deal: They nerf some of their dps, driving some to choose the new fotm pathfinder tanky build, and then complain about it!
I really do despise what qqing has done in the long run to the game.
P.S. I have a swordmaster GWF(my oldest character I might add) built back in open beta. I have NOT changed his spec, and still prefer how he is, and he can still kick butt. I do admit though, that I made an Iron Vanguard GWF now, and if I put them in an arena, the IV GWF would most likely win. He deals less dps, but his tankiness affords him to hit unstoppable a little more than my SM GWF, and basically that's all GWF matches come down to.
IV has a better damage than swordmaster. Trample the fallen/battle trample. While swordmaster has a better survivability. Steel defence etc.
IV has a better damage than swordmaster. Trample the fallen/battle trample. While swordmaster has a better survivability. Steel defence etc.
The combination of deep gash + weapon master's strike allows my sm gwf to attack faster/ apply a steady stream of dps to the dungeon. my iv gwfs wicked strike just does not match up weapon master's strike's "double hitting" ESPECIALLY during unstoppable. Plus, steel defense is a 5 second buff right after a daily is used. My iv gwf has more defense + can go unstoppable more often than my sm gwf.
Although I admit, I don't use it much. Does the slow of Not So Fast count as control? maybe I could try that combo instead... Ive been using come and get, frontline surge, indomitable battle strike on my iv gwf.
On either of my gwfs, ive honestly never had a problem with dps. I just know my iv gwf takes a bit more punishment than my sm gwf. And they have similar gear on...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
The combination of deep gash + weapon master's strike allows my sm gwf to attack faster/ apply a steady stream of dps to the dungeon. my iv gwfs wicked strike just does not match up weapon master's strike's "double hitting" ESPECIALLY during unstoppable. Plus, steel defense is a 5 second buff right after a daily is used. My iv gwf has more defense + can go unstoppable more often than my sm gwf.
Although I admit, I don't use it much. Does the slow of Not So Fast count as control? maybe I could try that combo instead... Ive been using come and get, frontline surge, indomitable battle strike on my iv gwf.
On either of my gwfs, ive honestly never had a problem with dps. I just know my iv gwf takes a bit more punishment than my sm gwf. And they have similar gear on...
Ah pve, i was referring to pvp since this thread is about pvp.
Giving a melee class ranged attacks because of the pointless "class equality" can only make things more ridiculous and more unfair.
Honestly, not when its done right. The only reason anyone can complain about giving ranged attacks to melee is in the case of GWF getting the IV path (which, as most people on the forums seem to agree in it being a mistake). Melee NEED gap closers, which come in the form or ranged attacks, teleporting, pulling the enemy in, high movement speed, etc., in order to have any chance against a decent ranged enemy. Lets take a look at the gap closers available to the GWF/GF:
GWF:
Sprint (high movement speed)
Mighty Leap (ranged jump/attack/dodge, rarely used due to very low damage in comparison)
Takedown (kind of...it moves you forward slightly when you use it in a noticable way and has a kind of "phantom" range once it locks on)
Savage Advance (no explanation needed, really. However, its a daily and GWF, unless feated/specced for bonus AP, don't gain AP that fast)
GF:
Lunging Strike (ranged lunge/attack)
Bull Charge (ranged lunge/attack)
Iron Vanguard:
Frontline Surge (ranged attack/prone, high damage on GWF)
Threatening Rush (ranged lunge, high damage on GWF)
As it stands on the GWF by itself (without IV) has enough gap closers to be formidable. Its harder to catch up than it is now, but its still possible. Although, I'm not sure how it would compare to HR...pretty sure the GWF would get wrecked in that scenario at least 90% of the time. The problem is when IV got added into the mix and GWF got two additional gap closers (which were originally scaled to work with GF damage).
What you want is complete superiority as a CW in everything. No one agrees with you on that and no one ever will. However, I must say that the irony in your post is just delicious:
Every class has its unique abilities. It's impossible for all classes to have the same performance in the same content. You need to accept a truth that some classes are just able to have better performance than other classes in a certain contents.
Okay. So it's still because of "class equality" that a melee class can have ranged attacks? Then how about I gain the ability to have unstoppable or use shield when a melee is doing close combat with me? Fair?
Every class has its unique abilities. It's impossible for all classes to have the same performance in the same content. You need to accept a truth that some classes are just able to have better performance than other classes in a certain contents. Giving a melee class ranged attacks because of the pointless "class equality" can only make things more ridiculous and more unfair.
Your continuing demands for an "I win" button to compensate for your inability to handle other classes in PvP are still pretty funny. The CW tab skill is arguably the most powerful in the game as it not only gives a CW access to yet another encounter power, it makes that power considerably more effective. If you still can't figure out how to play against GF's and GWF's in PvP, I and many others here are more than happy to have a serious conversation about tactics. CW's are able to lock down any other class in PvP, knock TR's right out of stealth, and actively avoid the attacks of every other class - including Frontline Surge.
Since you used to start threads about how you had roleplaying issues with things in the game, I suggested a perfectly valid and functional way to RP Frontline Surge in a way that would satisfy you. Since you ignored it, it seems that you're less concerned about a melee class having a skill you think they shouldn't and more about weakening a class that you don't play because you can't handle it. That kind of QQ'ing doesn't help anyone.
If you want to have PvP in this game, then you have to deal with "class balancing."
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you want to have PvP in this game, then you have to deal with "class balancing."
That is non-existent
melee should have gap closer, and gwf and gf have them. It doesn't make sense to me that they have also skills that hit from afar.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Okay. So it's still because of "class equality" that a melee class can have ranged attacks? Then how about I gain the ability to have unstoppable or use shield when a melee is doing close combat with me? Fair?
. . . Fighters can use ranged weapons and attacks. Please show me where in D&D history that it says Fighter Classes cannot used ranged weapons or attacks. Basically, what you're saying is that because a fighter can throw a weapon or use a bow or has an ability that is ranged, that you as a mage should be proficient in a shield? This is beyond sillyness.
. . . If you cannot handle such abilities, I suggest to relearn your tactics when facing them. I'll let you in on my little secret when I do PvP against a GF or a GWF:
. . . When I teleport, I do not teleport as far away from them as possible. Nope and why? Because that is what they expect. Instead, I either teleport to the left, right, or teleport through and behind them. This causes just enough confusion to usually get off my 2nd and 3rd teleports and then I start controlling them before they realize what happened. Not only does teleporting left, right, or behind them get me safely out of any arc splats, but it also is not what most would expect a CW to do.
. . . Fighters can use ranged weapons and attacks. Please show me where in D&D history that it says Fighter Classes cannot used ranged weapons or attacks. Basically, what you're saying is that because a fighter can throw a weapon or use a bow or has an ability that is ranged, that you as a mage should be proficient in a shield? This is beyond sillyness.
. . . If you cannot handle such abilities, I suggest to relearn your tactics when facing them. I'll let you in on my little secret when I do PvP against a GF or a GWF:
. . . When I teleport, I do not teleport as far away from them as possible. Nope and why? Because that is what they expect. Instead, I either teleport to the left, right, or teleport through and behind them. This causes just enough confusion to usually get off my 2nd and 3rd teleports and then I start controlling them before they realize what happened. Not only does teleporting left, right, or behind them get me safely out of any arc splats, but it also is not what most would expect a CW to do.
I suppose you are the only one to came up with such tactic, judging from the great number of cws in the first positions of the leaderboard.
Comments
They need a lot more toning down than that. To think that is all they need is so naively turning a blind eye to the problem it isn't funny.
When they fix it, you and many others will see.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Actually Regen GWFs back in the day were complained about as they could tank 4-5 players, no problem. Not much has changed.
It's just that more people used to play classes like rogue because it was the easier class to get into. Now GWF is the easy win class so you see way more and have more complaints because it is more prevelant.
No, I actually have pvp'd before the roar fiasco, and without roar they are still very over-the-top.
Get rid of threatening rush too (or put it on a cooldown) and maybe, just maybe, we see a glimmer of hope. Still would probably need a dmg reduction too.
Nope, that doesn't work in any reasonable sense nor does it address what was pointed out to you.
Sorry that you haven't yet figured out how to fight GF's and GWF's. I'm sure that if you keep practicing you'll figure out some tactics that work for you.
Bottom line is that even though I think GWF's have their slew of problems Frontline Surge is not one of them. It doesn't hit that hard and while it is a midrange attack it is not that hard to avoid. The ultimate proof is all of you are crying about how powerful it is on a GWF and not how powerful it is on a GF.
It's pure misdirected complaining because it is not game breaking OP on a GF. Plain and simple: GWF's are OP in other areas and this power just helps point that out.
Everybody complaining about how OP GWF's are is not complaining about the same thing IantheWizard is complaining about. Ian only cares that this is a midrange power on a melee class.
Ian in pen and paper when I have to fight your behind I'll take out a bow and fire arrows at you. We can't do that in Neverwinter and the way the way the game is designed as an Action Combat MMO makes it impossible and impractical to even consider implementing. Melee classes need their tools to reach ranged characters to have some sort of chance. Get over it.
Whether or not they "need" to be toned down ends up in the devs hand...
But to think that CWs cc wasn't a problem(for both pve and pvp) is also turning a blind eye to the problem as well.
ie, lets talk about "balance", not nerfing something just because you don't want to strategize/change tactics to work around a problem.
Actually back then Unstoppable wasn't as good as it was now. You could NOT activate it as often(although it could heal for more), hence getting grouped on certainly meant your death.
CW was an overpowered class in past metas, because their cc was not target capped, had way better sustainable(DoT) abilities, and burst damage, not to mention high recovery equaling superior rotation capabilities than everyone else.
Permacontrol was ALSO complained about back in the day, btw...
And that's all my defending points in a nutshell. Thank you
There was a bug where unstoppable would not activate when clicked. It did not happen that often, maybe once or twice a match, but it did need fixing and was fixed. If that bug did not occur then a regen GWF could and did tank whole teams.
Rogues currently have a similar crippling bug that has been around longer.
To whomever said why is FLS on GWF a problem and not GF...well GWF is way more mobile than a GF. On a GF it works, on a GWF it contributes to the "over-the-topness". The class is full of prones, it doesn't really need a mid-range one.
Just to make this clear: read the OP. Read his comments.
Nothing you said lines up with his complaints. I do think GWF's need to be toned down. He's complaining that it's a melee class and they shouldn't have any midrange abilities to be able to even have a chance against casters. No, I don't think anybody agrees with that.
And even if you complain they have too many tools to reach ranged classes this is the only tool which overlaps with the struggling GF. You can name any other tool to reached ranged characters and I would be willing to listen, for this...no. This is nothing more than a person complaining their wizard can't win from ranged.
This is, afterall, the same person who made a nonsense complaint about the GF only power Lunging Strike. He wants utter dominance over melee classes by removing any tool to even reach the wizards. Plain and simple. And you are not arguing the same thing as him.
Even without frontline surge the GWF would still be an extremely durable and mobile fighter. Frontline Surge Helps but it is not the cause. You'd be better off complaining about unstopable stopping you from keeping them out of range of Frontline Surge rather than complaining about Frontline Surge.
Certainly it helps them but its the shark repellent batspray on their utility belt. Focus on the baterang, armor, x-ray vision...etc.
What you forget is, CWs were getting away with a lot more back then as well. You forget that CWs abilities have been target capped, cooldown nerfed, functions changed, etc...
EDIT: Not saying that they were too horrible back then. But theres a reason CW abilities, as well as others have been nerfed, whereas GWFs are at the top NOW, due to their buffs applied OVER TIME.
Yup I do remember that. Especially now that you remind me!
The thing I am trying to say is that the potential for GWF to be godly has always been there. It is not new at all that they are a (too) powerful class. People just chose not to roll regen GWF before. Maybe the entry cost was too high, idk, I think it is because rogues were easier back then.
Off the top of my head I would say:
Threatening rush needs to be either put on cool down or limited to 3(?) charges with a 10 sec charge regeneration. (Not for GF though as it their only gap closer). Give it a new name if you have to
Diminishing returns on prones. (Yes for GF too). IMO no one should be able to be CC'd to death with no chance to survive. That is only an opinion though. I would say just start with prones as doing all CC would really hurt CWs.
Instead of diminishing returns a possibility exists to experiment in giving all paragon paths a control " break free". GWF and master infiltrator already have one.
Other classes have been toned down while GWF kept getting buffs.
New gear, especially for PvP, has been survival centric.
Multiple new armor enchants have been added which improve durability like barkshield.
Which is where I am at. It's not Frontline Surge. It plays a role but it is not the cause. Again the OP also complained about Lunging Strike. He's not worried about GWF's. He's complaining he doesn't have an "I Win" button against ALL melee fighters.
He didn't even mention GWF's...that's all you guys with the more valid concerns. So do understand that when we say leave Frontline Surge alone it's not saying "GWF's are perfectly fine" as much as "Frontline Surge is perfectly fine."
EDIT - Prones and their duration should be the focus IMO. Address that and see where we are at.
Ah, theres the crux of the problem too though. Look at TRs past. Permastealth existed back in open beta too, but burst damage TRs weren't nerfed yet. They were the greatest single target burst damagers back in the day, and permastealth was more a minority of TR playstyle. BUT look what happened. Their nerfs drove TRs to go permastealth. I don't like the playstyle, but I also cant blame them for it either. Look at HR pathfinders. Its basically the same deal: They nerf some of their dps, driving some to choose the new fotm pathfinder tanky build, and then complain about it!
I really do despise what qqing has done in the long run to the game.
P.S. I have a swordmaster GWF(my oldest character I might add) built back in open beta. I have NOT changed his spec, and still prefer how he is, and he can still kick butt. I do admit though, that I made an Iron Vanguard GWF now, and if I put them in an arena, the IV GWF would most likely win. He deals less dps, but his tankiness affords him to hit unstoppable a little more than my SM GWF, and basically that's all GWF matches come down to.
Every class has its unique abilities. It's impossible for all classes to have the same performance in the same content. You need to accept a truth that some classes are just able to have better performance than other classes in a certain contents. Giving a melee class ranged attacks because of the pointless "class equality" can only make things more ridiculous and more unfair.
IV has a better damage than swordmaster. Trample the fallen/battle trample. While swordmaster has a better survivability. Steel defence etc.
The combination of deep gash + weapon master's strike allows my sm gwf to attack faster/ apply a steady stream of dps to the dungeon. my iv gwfs wicked strike just does not match up weapon master's strike's "double hitting" ESPECIALLY during unstoppable. Plus, steel defense is a 5 second buff right after a daily is used. My iv gwf has more defense + can go unstoppable more often than my sm gwf.
Although I admit, I don't use it much. Does the slow of Not So Fast count as control? maybe I could try that combo instead... Ive been using come and get, frontline surge, indomitable battle strike on my iv gwf.
On either of my gwfs, ive honestly never had a problem with dps. I just know my iv gwf takes a bit more punishment than my sm gwf. And they have similar gear on...
Ah pve, i was referring to pvp since this thread is about pvp.
Honestly, not when its done right. The only reason anyone can complain about giving ranged attacks to melee is in the case of GWF getting the IV path (which, as most people on the forums seem to agree in it being a mistake). Melee NEED gap closers, which come in the form or ranged attacks, teleporting, pulling the enemy in, high movement speed, etc., in order to have any chance against a decent ranged enemy. Lets take a look at the gap closers available to the GWF/GF:
GWF:
GF:
Iron Vanguard:
As it stands on the GWF by itself (without IV) has enough gap closers to be formidable. Its harder to catch up than it is now, but its still possible. Although, I'm not sure how it would compare to HR...pretty sure the GWF would get wrecked in that scenario at least 90% of the time. The problem is when IV got added into the mix and GWF got two additional gap closers (which were originally scaled to work with GF damage).
What you want is complete superiority as a CW in everything. No one agrees with you on that and no one ever will. However, I must say that the irony in your post is just delicious:
You refuse to see the CW should lack in anything.
Your continuing demands for an "I win" button to compensate for your inability to handle other classes in PvP are still pretty funny. The CW tab skill is arguably the most powerful in the game as it not only gives a CW access to yet another encounter power, it makes that power considerably more effective. If you still can't figure out how to play against GF's and GWF's in PvP, I and many others here are more than happy to have a serious conversation about tactics. CW's are able to lock down any other class in PvP, knock TR's right out of stealth, and actively avoid the attacks of every other class - including Frontline Surge.
Since you used to start threads about how you had roleplaying issues with things in the game, I suggested a perfectly valid and functional way to RP Frontline Surge in a way that would satisfy you. Since you ignored it, it seems that you're less concerned about a melee class having a skill you think they shouldn't and more about weakening a class that you don't play because you can't handle it. That kind of QQ'ing doesn't help anyone.
If you want to have PvP in this game, then you have to deal with "class balancing."
double post, sry
That is non-existent
melee should have gap closer, and gwf and gf have them. It doesn't make sense to me that they have also skills that hit from afar.
. . . If you cannot handle such abilities, I suggest to relearn your tactics when facing them. I'll let you in on my little secret when I do PvP against a GF or a GWF:
. . . When I teleport, I do not teleport as far away from them as possible. Nope and why? Because that is what they expect. Instead, I either teleport to the left, right, or teleport through and behind them. This causes just enough confusion to usually get off my 2nd and 3rd teleports and then I start controlling them before they realize what happened. Not only does teleporting left, right, or behind them get me safely out of any arc splats, but it also is not what most would expect a CW to do.
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I suppose you are the only one to came up with such tactic, judging from the great number of cws in the first positions of the leaderboard.