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  • qutsemniequtsemnie Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    BTW even though I have a strong opinion, it is entirely possible this blows over in a few days. You get normal fluctuations in prices. They happen to go over the cap. Okay. They can happen to go under the cap too.

    If I was Cryptic my official response would be: We are concerned, but we will wait and see if this persist for a while before taking an action.

    Also, BTW what is my personal stake in the matter?

    I was with a friend last night who got a 40% off coupon for a key. My friend decided that they would pay whatever they had to on the Zen exchange to get enough zen for a key. She posted a 500 AD buy, and the coupon timed out before she could get a fill.

    If there had been no cap on the exchange she could have upped the current spread by 1AD, filled her order, used her coupon, and not have had to pay cash.


    And that is going to apply to all of us if we get it in our head we want something we can only get from the zen market through play. It won't be that prices are too high. It will be that you have to get in a line. The coupon timing out just underscores that you can't get zen whenever you want with AD.
  • daggon87daggon87 Member Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    NW market is not a free market. Leave the preaching outside.

    And anyway, free market (or what approaches them in real word) will always result in a few riches and many poors. If NW market goes too much in this direction, this will be the end of this game. So let's hope good manipulations of the market will soon be occurring.

    For me, buying zen is a no / no since it got over 400 AD for 1 zen (I produce 50 - 70 K AD a day, and this is not changing much)... I wont buy more than a few hundreds zen with real money a month. So with less options affordable, things are getting less enjoyable fast.
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  • qutsemniequtsemnie Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    It is not really preaching to note that I just want my friend to be able to buy the 125 zen for a key before a coupon times out. If there was no cap, I know that would be possible. With a cap, I have observed that it can be impossible.
  • nhokinhoki Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 28
    edited May 2014
    If you remove the lid ZEN the neverwinter will be equal in brazil in time for World Cup 20 dollars on a bottle of water on the beach, I know what I'm talking about because I live in brazil.

    zen market is always empty because 500dC is accessible to all increase the CAP will do always have zen in the market but not on demand and yes because it will be accessible to few.
  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Think 500AD/1ZEN is prohibitive now? Try 10K AD/ZEN and more.

    I'll save everyone the time and effort of calling me a really greedy SOB for vouching on this; consider me vouched.
  • chrcorechrcore Member Posts: 329 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    Really now? I'll offer as rebuttal the point that I've received arguments/complaints in other games that previously had a hard cap on currency exchange, had that cap removed--and players have been complaining for months that the cap should be reinstated because real money players were gouging everyone else via the exchange. Think 500AD/1ZEN is prohibitive now? Try 10K AD/ZEN and more.

    Removing that cap just widens the gap between the haves and the have-nots. People will charge exorbitant amounts of AD for just 1 ZEN merely because they can. Whatever the limit gets set at, that's what everyone will eventually and exclusively be charging for ZEN...and if the sky is the limit, then eventually the exchange will get out of control.

    The cap has worked fine in STO. It's fine where it is.

    I'm not saying a cap in general would be bad, just that it's not currently working as there are ways around it (selling keys for AD) and there is a huge shortage of Zen.

    If Cryptic were to behind the scenes fill some of those zen orders such that keys also sold at the 500:1 rate on the AH then I would agree with you that it is helping.
  • lewstelamon01lewstelamon01 Member Posts: 7,415 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    chrcore wrote: »
    I'm not saying a cap in general would be bad, just that it's not currently working as there are ways around it (selling keys for AD) and there is a huge shortage of Zen.

    If Cryptic were to behind the scenes fill some of those zen orders such that keys also sold at the 500:1 rate on the AH then I would agree with you that it is helping.

    Except that Cryptic will not interfere in the exchange in any manner. It was intended to be entirely player driven.
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  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited May 2014
    chrcore wrote: »
    I'm not saying a cap in general would be bad, just that it's not currently working as there are ways around it (selling keys for AD) and there is a huge shortage of Zen.

    If Cryptic were to behind the scenes fill some of those zen orders such that keys also sold at the 500:1 rate on the AH then I would agree with you that it is helping.

    Price manipulation is bad.

    The better solution is always and will always be to make using AD more attractive. This will cause both AD to be more desirable to buy and less desirable to sell. Anything else is an extreme reaction whether it is increasing the cap or having the company put Zen on the market artificially.

    They never should have to do the latter. If it ever gets to that point all it says is that Zen is more desirable to AD which is a problem on its own.
  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Your comments are certainly thoughtful, but I'll rebut in this way:
    qutsemnie wrote: »
    "it's because we've sold ALL that we can afford to buy with *real cash*."


    Someone in the world will afford to buy more zen to sell for AD when they are allowed to be offered more AD.

    Absofeckingluyely. Good thing for people it's capped. Or I'd take advantage as far as advantage will go.
    qutsemnie wrote: »
    "the hard cap is in place to keep the high dollar players from extorting the not-so-well off players by charging a ridiculous and unlimited amount of AD for their ZEN"

    And with a cap you cause not-so-well off players to not get the fair value of their Zen that do buy. The fair value being determined by the market place.

    Only fair to those with the big-bucks (Astral Diamonds) - but not *balanced*. What you prescribe inflates the economy. There is already enough inflation, with your idea - an outright depression would occur in the economy over the inflation of AD/Zen rate.
    qutsemnie wrote: »
    "Because the AD-to-Zen ratio has reached cap I've actually 'burned' my monthly budget of cash to buy Zen"

    If you sold it on the exchange at 500 in the last few days you lost out on AD. You could have made more buying ten keys and selling it on the AD auction house even after the 10% rate. You have no incentive to fill orders. You just happened to do so.

    Not true. I have plenty of incentive to fill orders: the 500/1 ratio. However, I have only so much cash to spend on a *GAME*. I do still have to EAT. As for the Lockbox Keys idea - don't think it hasn't crossed my mind. However, that customer is either a bigger economic player than I am or has a gambling issue, neither of which I'm willing to contribute to, much less "gouge" anyone on. I might be a "jerk", but I'm not a a$$hat.
    qutsemnie wrote: »
    "it's the scarcity of ZEN. People are simply buying it up faster than people are willing to sell it. "

    1) Well at the moment, buying zen at 500 is a no risk way to make money, so people in the know and with resources have no reason not to flood the market with buy orders of 500. The way it is no risk is you put a buy for 1125 at 500, and if someone fills it, the WORST you can do is buy keys and put them on the auction house and flip a profit in 5 minutes. This benefits the people with larger orders the most since they are more likely to get an order filled and take advantage of this brokerage.

    2) Zen is being inefficiently allocated to those that value it less than other people. Right now there is someone that really wants a retraining token and that person CANT get it this morning without paying cash or getting lucky. They wake up. Hypothetically this person does not care how much AD they pay for zen. They want to retrain because why not? They go to buy Zen and they are blocked out of buying zen by people that value it less than them, and it is not fair to them because they were willing to pay the angrysprite's of the world more than anyone else, but they can't, and now they have to pay cash to do their retraining, and they grumble to their friends. And for what? Because they valued Zen to highly and AD to lowly?

    You really don't understand the system and "fiscal responsibility" and "fiscal ability" do you? Read back to yourself what you write. If you continue believing strongly in all that, then so be it. If I had $1,000 to just throw away on Neverwinter - I would. Yes. Really. And it STILL would not fill all the Zen buy-orders. Have you noticed the pool has gone as high at 20,000 Zen at 500/1 (ummm, that's $20,000 U.S.)? Go figure.

    I'll leave it at that.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2014
    chrcore wrote: »
    I'm not saying a cap in general would be bad, just that it's not currently working as there are ways around it (selling keys for AD) and there is a huge shortage of Zen.

    If Cryptic were to behind the scenes fill some of those zen orders such that keys also sold at the 500:1 rate on the AH then I would agree with you that it is helping.

    No matter what, the cap is a big big help and nobody can deny how vital it is in stabilizing the zen/ad ratio. Is it enough? Maybe not.
  • hav0clolhav0clol Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 147 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    qutsemnie wrote: »
    ... words...

    Listen to this man. He knows what's up.
  • hav0clolhav0clol Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 147 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Let me explain a point for you guys who don't understand qutsemnie. He says that if you were selling at 500 in the past few days you lost value. To the guys who insist they did not: why don't you sell at 400 then? That is an equivalent margin compared to if you decided to intelligently buy keys and sell on AH instead.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    qutsemnie wrote: »
    BTW even though I have a strong opinion, it is entirely possible this blows over in a few days. You get normal fluctuations in prices. They happen to go over the cap. Okay. They can happen to go under the cap too.

    If I was Cryptic my official response would be: We are concerned, but we will wait and see if this persist for a while before taking an action.

    Also, BTW what is my personal stake in the matter?

    I was with a friend last night who got a 40% off coupon for a key. My friend decided that they would pay whatever they had to on the Zen exchange to get enough zen for a key. She posted a 500 AD buy, and the coupon timed out before she could get a fill.

    If there had been no cap on the exchange she could have upped the current spread by 1AD, filled her order, used her coupon, and not have had to pay cash.


    And that is going to apply to all of us if we get it in our head we want something we can only get from the zen market through play. It won't be that prices are too high. It will be that you have to get in a line. The coupon timing out just underscores that you can't get zen whenever you want with AD.

    Except that the conversion rate wouldn't be 501:1, in your scenario - it could have been 800:1 or 1000:1, maybe even higher. Now what happens if your friend simply did not have enough ADs, even if there was Zen being sold on the exchange? The cap is there to maintain some semblance of order and stability. What is needed is to extend the duration of those coupons significantly, (at least a day or a week in duration), and to offer so many good things at affordable prices, in ADs, that they become more valuable in their own right.
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  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited June 2014
    bioshrike wrote: »
    Except that the conversion rate wouldn't be 501:1, in your scenario - it could have been 800:1 or 1000:1, maybe even higher. Now what happens if your friend simply did not have enough ADs, even if there was Zen being sold on the exchange? The cap is there to maintain some semblance of order and stability. What is needed is to extend the duration of those coupons significantly, (at least a day or a week in duration), and to offer so many good things at affordable prices, in ADs, that they become more valuable in their own right.


    Well said.
    You are the first person to bring up the coupons fast expiration that I have seen (more than in passing) and I have little doubt the limited time plays a significant role in the willingness people have to pay more AD for Zen. If there was a longer sale duration on those coupons players would definitely be more willing to bide their time and ask for a better price. With only one hour time limits players get a 25-50% off coupon they just want the Zen as quickly as possible.
  • berserkrage99berserkrage99 Member Posts: 103
    edited June 2014
    Well said.
    You are the first person to bring up the coupons fast expiration that I have seen (more than in passing) and I have little doubt the made rush it makes you take to take advantage plays a significant role in the willingness people have to pay more for Zen. If there was a longer sale duration on those coupons players would definitely be more willing to bide their time and ask for a better price. With only one hour time limits players get a 25-50% off coupon they just want the Zen as quickly as possible.

    Thank you for being the only mod I see here willing to speak his mind against the lame practices of PWE marketing team.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited June 2014
    I'm not the only one. We have all expressed our own opinions on the matter and none of us are exactly happy with the market at this time.

    We just don't let the doomsaying hyperbole's, outlandish claims or propositions go. So many of the comments literally make my head hurt because they are just...gah. Every time I see somebody complain the prices are too high so the cap needs to be increased I just feel like some of my brain cells get siphoned off into the void. And the sky is falling comments are not much better.
  • ikuruyoikuruyo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 132 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    If you are looking at the true Zen:AD Ratio just look at the prices of keys. Currently it is at 1:595.

    Math:
    1125 Zen =10 keys
    1 key=67,000 AD (current AH price)
    1125 Zen= 670,000 AD
    1 Zen= 670,000/1125
    1 Zen= 595.55

    PS. I love neverwinter teaches me real economics :D

    Using your math it is currently at about 645AD/zen.

    There is currently 1,376,000 offers for zen at 500ad/zen.

    I saw the buy orders drop by 20k zen but its gone back up to over 40k above that point since. And its only been 30 minutes. The number of posts for zen at 500ad/zen has done nothing but climb.

    EDIT: Its about an hour later and there are offers for 1,445,000 zen now. Make that 1.45mZen. It went up another 5k while I was typing the edit.
  • mfgamesysmfgamesys Member Posts: 462 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    demand >>> supply

    this issue should become less of a problem in about a month imo.

    Now to get zen you need to wait 3 to 4 days or more now.
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  • qutsemniequtsemnie Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I'm not the only one. We have all expressed our own opinions on the matter and none of us are exactly happy with the market at this time.

    We just don't let the doomsaying hyperbole's, outlandish claims or propositions go. So many of the comments literally make my head hurt because they are just...gah. Every time I see somebody complain the prices are too high so the cap needs to be increased I just feel like some of my brain cells get siphoned off into the void. And the sky is falling comments are not much better.

    Strange. All the arguments against raising the cap were full of doomsaying, hyperbole, outlandish claims, and random irrelevant analogies, but we don't don't let those things get to us.
  • degraafinationdegraafination Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Just put in a buy order about 24 hours beforehand. I buy ZEN (with AD) everyday, and that seems to be the turnaround time at the moment. Perhaps if the supply gets to 2kk, you'll have to put in orders two days in advance.

    No biggie, at the moment. Just an inconvenience.
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  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,464 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I've been selling Zen every few days so I can upgrade the quality of my companions, though of course my little 1k-Zen-at-a-time offerings are just a drop in the bucket. (Not tonight, though, my Young Yeti is at level 18 at the moment). I've got 13 greens left that I want to upgrade to blues, at which point I'll take a step back and decide how many/how often I want to start pushing the blues up to purples.
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  • ikuruyoikuruyo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 132 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    On the matter of looking at STO and trying to compare it to Nw. Back before they added Starbases the value of a zen was around 400 or so dilithum. The Starbases were massive dilithum sinks and pulled millions of dilithum out of the market. They also unlocked stores for upgraded gear and those all required dilithum as well. At one point it hit less then 80 dilithum per zen but has since recovered to about 150.

    Before the addition of Starbases and their stores there was a real concern that it was going to hit the cap there as well. The sinks in STO are in the 10-40k range per item and the ships take a lot of items. No single item or upgrade requires over 500k. The fleet projects that require large amounts are expected to be filled by everyone in the fleet.

    For sinks to work it is best if they are fairly small. The "nickle and dimeing" approach works much better then the single large sink for a single upgrade.

    While I might be willing to do many low cost upgrades I would not want to do 1-2 large cost upgrades. Even if the low costs add up to more then the large cost. You will also get people spending when the hit the small amounts instead of forcing them to save till they have huge amounts of AD. Once you have spent weeks saving up that 1m+ ad for an upgrade you don't feel as willing to spend it. Where as you would have been willing to spend that 1m ad as you built it up for incremental upgrades.
  • qq88ppqq88pp Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I offered to buy ZEN on June 3rd, 12:58 (there were 863,105 requests)
    order filled of June 4th, 04:10

    That's about 15 hours. It could be worse. (and it's getting worse at the moment)

    now it's 930,888 requests in ZAX for 500 AD for 1 Z.
    For me this shows that the demand for 500AD/Z is rising.
  • vrtesseractvrtesseract Member Posts: 631 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    The issue is simply there is to much good stuff you can get with zen compared to stuff you can get on the AH/AD store
    the things they have done to encourage zen cards has just been to little. Id think that the first time zen buyer box
    would have helped but it didn't... nor did the raffle.

    What I suggest is sell a Black ice crafting pack/pick crafting kit in AD store. Since I think that is what people are going crazy for maybe also put a new fashion outfit and mount on AD store. I am hoping the egg event will move zen in the other direction.

    Also I suggest letting people use the tower of changes for ad the more you change the more it costs...or they can use the coin for unlimited changes. that way people can do a lot of little changes. I know id be more likely to a 1000-5000ad charge many times
    to change my hair or do slight slider changes to fit into outfits better. but I can count how often id be willing to buy an appearance change coin on one hand, especially now that even a tiny change will completely change my look.


    and for the record me and my hubby have purchased 3 point cards since icewind came out. and just sold the zen for 500 right off.
    it didn't even dent the demand.
  • tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    qq88pp wrote: »
    I offered to buy ZEN on June 3rd, 12:58 (there were 863,105 requests)
    order filled of June 4th, 04:10

    That's about 15 hours. It could be worse.

    now it's 134309 requests in ZAX for 500 AD for 1 Z.
    For me this shows that the demand for 500AD/Z is declining.

    You're reading it wrong...by a factor of 10. It's close to 1mill, not 100k.
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  • radtatatradtatat Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 201
    edited June 2014
    Price manipulation is bad.

    The better solution is always and will always be to make using AD more attractive. This will cause both AD to be more desirable to buy and less desirable to sell.

    ^^This. And quite a few people have already suggested possible AD sinks for the past months. Cryptic must know reducing companion upgrade and mount upgrade AD amount are really good ways to help re-balance the economy. Or they can adopt some of the more feasible new AD sink ideas from other threads.

    So what is staying their hands? Why are they not doing it? Is the reason as simple as they are selling more Zen to players than ever before (therefore making more money) so they do not want to change that?

    The chicken event might help a little, since it is an easy way to get a purple pet (good for Sword coast). As such, I expect an egg to cost an arm and a leg in AD... But this is only a limited time event. We need some slightly more permanent AD sinks to make AD more valuable in the long run...
  • query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    It is supply and demand but not in the simplistic terms offered here. To introduce zen into the economy requires dollars or euro, real money. PWE decided to require real money to get coal wards. So what has happened is that the demand to spend actual money does not meet the supply needs of the gaming community. they could raise the cap to 700 and it would not matter because nobody will spend real money on a game so desperate to get ahold of it. Case closed. QED.
  • qq88ppqq88pp Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    tang56 wrote: »
    You're reading it wrong...by a factor of 10. It's close to 1mill, not 100k.
    AH!!!! My mistake. I just took note of the most top number which actually is the number of requests for 496AD Zen.
    at this moment 930,888 Z are requested @ 500AD.
    I'm gonna change that previous post!
  • ikuruyoikuruyo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 132 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    Well its dropped by 500k orders so its going in the right direction. Probably people pulling down their orders to pick up eggs with.

    Still close to 1million orders for zen at 500 each though.
  • elthiruilelthiruil Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I'm not the only one. We have all expressed our own opinions on the matter and none of us are exactly happy with the market at this time.

    We just don't let the doomsaying hyperbole's, outlandish claims or propositions go. So many of the comments literally make my head hurt because they are just...gah. Every time I see somebody complain the prices are too high so the cap needs to be increased I just feel like some of my brain cells get siphoned off into the void. And the sky is falling comments are not much better.

    Then it really makes you wonder why did they purposely destroy a mostly stable economy, perhaps they did not envision this - but that is no doubt the end effect, they created a demand that will always be greater than the supply.

    Perhaps 'wonderful' if you think that paying $10 for a coalescent ward is a good thing (the zen price-the pwi price), as for me I will just wait and play the random game (invocation), and if I never win, so be it.

    They have created the problem, and its in their hands to do something about it, if that was their intention - well played, however its a great way to destroy a game too (IF that even happens).

    In the end, time will tell all.
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