Like I said, TRs don't have enough damage because nobody builds for damage any more -- because if you build for damage then you can't become the "unkillable" TR with the crapshi* stealth-ITC-SS-stealth-ITC-SS rotations any more.
Before the nerf, LB friggin' hit so hard by itself that basically it was LB - oneshot kill - SS, go fiddle around until LB recharge, and then rinse and repeat. Nowadays, if you build for it you can still bring an average 30k CW or a HR down to 10k from full health with one attack. The difference is the opponents have some HP left to try to play the game out and seek retaliation, instead of simply being denied a game at all.
speccing for it in your terms is being a completely maxed out rogue. nobody else can pull that off without the highest gear possible.
i personally liked the damage pre-tenacity + impact shot nerf and i was never around pre-lashing nerf. people just hated impact shot despite actually being able to dodge it if they tried to do so or at least waste the rogue's stealth bar.
But ofcourse, the meta has changed. TRs are now expected to be the invincible 1vs1 duelists, as well as unkillable many vs1 trollers. Any TR build or concept that does not fit this role is now simply dismissed as "not viable" from some people, because the general tactics and strategy surrounding how to play TRs have been changed ---- NOT BECAUSE OUR OFFENSIVE POWERS ARE <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
yet gwf's can easily beat us in that department as even the undergeared ones can near kill someone in a single rotation. a buff to gwf's conversely nerfs our own performance as they are a counter to our class.
i'm basically just waiting on the purified set b4 i start caring about pvp again since all i can do is stun others for easier kills or some protection from other gwf's.
e ---- NOT BECAUSE OUR OFFENSIVE POWERS ARE <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
.
TR OFFENCE POWERS ARE BIGGEST <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> IN THE GAME.
for example tr with 2 or 3 offencive slots cant beat a single pvp spec class...maybe a dc if realy lucky.
how is that good.
and if they are so good how come nobody calls tr in dungeon.
and u always say tr should be support class why is that if they have good offence powers.
so striker class cant beat anyone with 2,3 offence slots and that is fine loololooloolololololloollooooooloolooolo
any top gwf can one shot any tr just needs to land one prone.same time tr needs 7,8 lb 2,3 daily to kill that gwf that would take 3min
its way better then having 50k lb.
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malphaeousMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 88
Please, try to think from the overall perspective of the game. I insist. Please try to refrain from spreading around mindless anger about a nerf which was frankly, deserving in every aspect. Most reasonable people know better, but new TRs into the game quickly catch on to these wild tales about how TRs have been "wronged" somehow, which in fact, never was.
First, think about what the average HP was like back then. Nowadays, PvP has been researched to a certain extent so it is common knowledge that around 30k HP is the target amount you should seek -- if a bit of more sacrifice in certain aspects of your character, 35k. Back then, people were largely around 25k~28k.
So stop frickin' complaining about a nerf that was deserving. Get over it.
let me start by saying that this game was designed mainly with PvE in mind, this is evident based upon the fact that there is so little PvP content in comparison to PvE content. Yes with mod 3 they added more PvP content but that doesn't play the same way. This " Deserved nerf" effected the role of the TR in PVE as well as PvP. we are supposed to be boss killers that's our role. in PvP we are melee ST DPS which means we kill one at a time, up close. The first thing we focus on is a healer after that the AoE... if you are a ranged attacker you should have almost no chance against melee if we are up close to you, period! likewise if you can get range on melee and initiate a kite we should have almost no chance, if you cant understand that, you cant be helped. Ranged classes have ways to initiate a kite on melee classes who get too close just like melee classes have ways to close the gap on ranged types who initiate a kite. niether is 100% effective but they are available. Before you get upset im not saying L2P no you cant get good enough to beat a one shot attack just like I cant get good enough to beat being CCed to death, but if they nerf the CC functionality of CWs in PvE gets nerfed as well. every nerf changed group dynamic in both PvE and PvP you cant take 4 TRs and a DC to CN and expect to beat the Dracolich but you can take 4 CWs and a DC. I would say that PvP balance is FAR BETTER than PvE ( Where some classes arent needed or wanted at all) but im assuming you think this is ok?
Remember this game is geared primarily toward PvE and if you say different you are either not paying attention or you are lying to yourself.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Did I mention, I do not have good intentions?
Please, try to think from the overall perspective of the game. I insist. Please try to refrain from spreading around mindless anger about a nerf which was frankly, deserving in every aspect. Most reasonable people know better, but new TRs into the game quickly catch on to these wild tales about how TRs have been "wronged" somehow, which in fact, never was.
First, think about what the average HP was like back then. Nowadays, PvP has been researched to a certain extent so it is common knowledge that around 30k HP is the target amount you should seek -- if a bit of more sacrifice in certain aspects of your character, 35k. Back then, people were largely around 25k~28k.
Secondly, think about how LB used to hit before the nerf. Its been roughly nerfed for 40%. Nowadays, when you build for LB it still hits for like 20~22k. That means before the nerf it used to hit for around 33~36k. Even when not using any specialized focus for LB, just using P.Vorp enchantment alone is enough to get me a 12~13k crit. Before the nerf, this figure would have been 20k~22k.
It's literally one-shot if you build a LB-specialized TR. Even with a non-LB-specialized build, LB would hit for around 60~70% of enemy health in one attack. We're all TRs. We know that it is only under certain specific cicumstanes that an enemy may anticipate the existence of a TR and he may attempt to avoid being hit from stealth. But in a fight which involves more than two people, any chaotic confusion is enough for a TR to get a hit in that instantly kills.
It was an encounter that effectively hit harder than even SE, that can be used around every 20 seconds, which would one-shot most everyone.
Friend, there is no "learn to play" against a one-shot attack. You don't learn anything against a move that instantly kills you out of the blue. There's nothing to learn except "don't play a broken PvP like this, ever."
What makes PvP is the fight itself. How one person acts, how the other counters, retaliates, and that process of mind-games against each other. It's one thing to deal a powerful damage as an attack of opportunity and gain a decisive advantage, it's something entirely else when you just snuff someone out one-shot wthout ever having a chance to even realize someone is around.
...
I just cannot seem to understand how any right-minded person who considers him a PvPer can ever think its wrong to do away with a one-shot power, because there's nothing that concerns PvP with a game that allows a one-shot power roam free.
That's not PvPing. It's griefing.
So stop frickin' complaining about a nerf that was deserving. Get over it.
.
Um sure then how come I can ice knife 115k on my cw? debuff's sure but my tr wont hit that hard(with debuff's). enough said( i have been here since beta) Also I have been ice knifed in pvp also one shot proc my soulforge. I be dam if i can do that on my tr now so don't tell me to shut up and stop complaining because I wasn't I just don't play my tr anymore think I'm the only one Q for a dung and watch how fast you get kicked. Then go on a GWF CW or DC and then see what happens this is fact not complaints. Now if they have a pvp spell page and pve spell page that would be fine and you can nerf pvp to hell for all I care because all it makes is cry babies its like this in any game fps people cry about this set up and mmo people cry about this set up. Fact is people cry when they cant get there way when they get there way its not enough so they cry some more that's where we are today. Im done
Actually I wish they did have entirely different powers for PVE/PVP (or at least different effects for powers instead of both coming from the exact same pool).
Right now the TR is so impotent in PvE that it is not unheard of for DC and GF to top them in damage (possibly this is from the AE speed runs and the TR has no time to effectively contribute to them, it could also be the debuffs in combinations with the AE's -- I don't know but I am a skilled TR and I have fallen behind DC and GF too many times for it to be a fluke). PvP has caused severe harm to the PvE TR and this is most annoying as I dislike the PvP in this game.
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malphaeousMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 88
edited June 2014
the problem with TRs in PvE is it is too easy for other classes to ensure that we cant hit the mobs at all, so they top the meters because we don't even get to hit a lot of the trash, if your CWs and GWFs don't use knockback and instead use AS and CGI to keep the trash together and don't throw everything off cliffs, you can actually top the meters, but that's not your real function anyway. everyone gets too caught up in the meters. the fact is that we are Single Target DPS in dungeons. this means that out main function is killing bosses first large trash second and small trash is a distant third. you dont have to compete with the AoE just watch how fast the bosses go down with a properly specced and built TR on them. they can force your damage down, I run with guild groups, our DC heals and our CWs and GWFs are more concerned about getting the dungeon done as a team than about the meters. they keep the mobs stacked up so I can use WR on everything... if they do this you can often top the meters, not that it maters, if you are a skilled TR nothing can keep up with you on a boss mob, unless they initiate a kite before you get to attack... and a properly tanked boss mob bumps your DPS even more because you aren't dodging and running as much, and you can stay behind the mob keeping combat advantage...
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Did I mention, I do not have good intentions?
Lately the GWF is not as horribly immortal as they used to be. I've duel many Destroyer spec GWF now in a day than I do in a week pre module 3. I think that was because of Destroyer's Purpose being buffed. Point is, these guys, though not as unkillable as they used to, like to scream a lot, it's defeaning. Roar-Roar-Roar. You're dead.
A few days ago I was able to try out a new WK build my friend and I have been playtesting on Preview. It works for me staying out of range bleeding the hell out'a the GWF while in an SS-BnS rotation and exiting Smoke Bomb out of Stealth. He's debuffed to the point that he actually leaves me a sliver of health so I can restealth...and repeat the process until I can crit a Whirlwind to finish him off. Although the damage spike might be owed to a P.Vorpal.
I don't claim to good to figure this out. Heck I don't know if it works on a non-maxed out TR. So if ya'll want to give it a try, I'd be happy to hear your results. Cheers!
Lately the GWF is not as horribly immortal as they used to be. I've duel many Destroyer spec GWF now in a day than I do in a week pre module 3. I think that was because of Destroyer's Purpose being buffed. Point is, these guys, though not as unkillable as they used to, like to scream a lot, it's defeaning. Roar-Roar-Roar. You're dead.
A few days ago I was able to try out a new WK build my friend and I have been playtesting on Preview. It works for me staying out of range bleeding the hell out'a the GWF while in an SS-BnS rotation and exiting Smoke Bomb out of Stealth. He's debuffed to the point that he actually leaves me a sliver of health so I can restealth...and repeat the process until I can crit a Whirlwind to finish him off. Although the damage spike might be owed to a P.Vorpal.
I don't claim to good to figure this out. Heck I don't know if it works on a non-maxed out TR. So if ya'll want to give it a try, I'd be happy to hear your results. Cheers!
Yup, the same.
I've also recently respecced to a Range Perma-WK and I'm having A MUCH better time dueling GWFs... staying in stealth and not being confined to inside-the-node had really improved my chances against them... to be honest I do a bit less kills (than the SS-ITC build) but i RARELY die now in domination... even when i tank 2...
It's always good to find a fellow WK. I am a Whisperknife at heart, though I have been "heartbroken" by it many times since it came out. I've been MI for a long while, spending 300k on a two-way respec every now and then. But this time I think I might stay as a WK. I also like the out-of-node tactic, and we burn the CW and HR pretty easily.
No, he's pissed off that Whisperknives got screwed. Frankly, so am I. I was hoping for something different and viable. Kweassa plays a TR named Lomsie (might be Loomsie, apologies I forget) Cheps or something close to that. He's a good player that gives a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. I don't always agree with him but he cares and isn't trolling against TRs.
This thread is full of a whole lot of nonsense.
First off, you can do a TR PvP build that is Combat/Deflection but you have to do it from the ground up. So even if you start over and have all of your enchants you still need replace and refine your artifacts on a new character. If artifacts were account bound you would see a lot of us switching things around. Also, if re-roll of base stats was allowed as well as a race change a lot more people would change things around.
Anyway you look at a TR is going to be using some stealth. Stealth will not go away fully.
In terms of PvE, as was already mentoned, we don't have the opportunity to do as much damage as AoE classes. An Executioner built for PvE, with high recovery and power, lays waste to single targets. People are just too stupid to realize it.
Even a top-end Saboteur can annihilate targets. With PvE weapons my GS is 15.7k. Perfect Bilethorn, Perfect Barkshield.
Profound Executioner Armor, just about into all rank 9s. Power is over 5k. 44% crit chance. So speed swindle is proccing a lot and I can bring targets, including the big bosses to a crawl. 10% flat damage because I'm always in stealth. Then there is Courage Breaker, oh god.
Sure, a pure PvE build is going to out-damage me by 2-3 million over the course of an epic dungeon. Spread that out over a whole run and it matters very little.
There is a perception that has been made reality about TRs because as we all know too well, a person can be made to reason. People are generally stupid.
In PvE, we do lay waste to single targets, and people don't seem to realize it. The reason they don't realize it is because both CW and GWF lay waste to single targets faster than a TR. Even after the latest correction to the GWF multiplication instead of adding bug they still do more damage to a single target faster than a TR. Granted this requires the correct setup and play but such is where it stand now. And once I again I will stipulate that I am not just talking about the use of single target skills to kill a single target, I mean using the whole package (which some try to conceal and only compare direct single target abilities). Now I am aware that CW is intended to be adjusted somewhere down the road, but if it is anything like the GWF 'nerf' then they will be twice as good as they are now. Drop your theory crafting and run your parses and realize the truth of things.
tr single target dmg is a myth,its mediocre at best.
why do u think no tr posted a pve vid in 8 months.
no one wants to look stupid,
still people say its fine kkkkkk so post a pve viable build at some boss so we can see that great dmg.like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-jp9hs61bg
or just find a recent(last 8 months lol) pve vid of tr i take it all back
Lately the GWF is not as horribly immortal as they used to be. I've duel many Destroyer spec GWF now in a day than I do in a week pre module 3. I think that was because of Destroyer's Purpose being buffed. Point is, these guys, though not as unkillable as they used to, like to scream a lot, it's defeaning. Roar-Roar-Roar. You're dead.
A few days ago I was able to try out a new WK build my friend and I have been playtesting on Preview. It works for me staying out of range bleeding the hell out'a the GWF while in an SS-BnS rotation and exiting Smoke Bomb out of Stealth. He's debuffed to the point that he actually leaves me a sliver of health so I can restealth...and repeat the process until I can crit a Whirlwind to finish him off. Although the damage spike might be owed to a P.Vorpal.
I don't claim to good to figure this out. Heck I don't know if it works on a non-maxed out TR. So if ya'll want to give it a try, I'd be happy to hear your results. Cheers!
Ive had some mild success with this kind of build, I have very little recovery though and only 13 INT with campfire buff. I can get through about 1 and 1/2 rotations using SS and BnS. I did have a debuff build centered around VP but that cooldown hit my build hard but it was tons of fun while it lasted...Anyways I usually slot LB just because I cant keep the rotation up for very long and it works well as finisher
I never said TR PvE damage was as good as it should be, nor did I say TRs were better than a GWF or CW. What I was making note of is the simple fact that we do plenty of damage and in no way hinder a group. It's simply a bunch of numb-nut min-maxers who have to have the optimal group for a run. Which is why I don't PUG dungeons. I go on runs with my guild or people I know on the Legit channel.
I think TR damage probably is where it should be, it is just the other two mentioned are too high. I noticed in KR (I know it is easy but as an example) that the CW and GWF horsed up and ran ahead and before the rest of us could reach them (we just ran) they had already cleared the next batch. If all we did was ran and didn't use mounts they would have cleared everything with just the two before we could run the whole length (well except for boss). I don't think more damage is what is needed at all. In fact all the TR really needs is a daily damage ability (make SE useful and restore lurkers) and for the other two to be properly adjusted.
Comments
speccing for it in your terms is being a completely maxed out rogue. nobody else can pull that off without the highest gear possible.
i personally liked the damage pre-tenacity + impact shot nerf and i was never around pre-lashing nerf. people just hated impact shot despite actually being able to dodge it if they tried to do so or at least waste the rogue's stealth bar.
yet gwf's can easily beat us in that department as even the undergeared ones can near kill someone in a single rotation. a buff to gwf's conversely nerfs our own performance as they are a counter to our class.
i'm basically just waiting on the purified set b4 i start caring about pvp again since all i can do is stun others for easier kills or some protection from other gwf's.
TR OFFENCE POWERS ARE BIGGEST <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> IN THE GAME.
for example tr with 2 or 3 offencive slots cant beat a single pvp spec class...maybe a dc if realy lucky.
how is that good.
and if they are so good how come nobody calls tr in dungeon.
and u always say tr should be support class why is that if they have good offence powers.
so striker class cant beat anyone with 2,3 offence slots and that is fine loololooloolololololloollooooooloolooolo
Moot point. It's true that us TRs are technically glass, but definitely not cannons. At the very least, not anymore.
its way better then having 50k lb.
let me start by saying that this game was designed mainly with PvE in mind, this is evident based upon the fact that there is so little PvP content in comparison to PvE content. Yes with mod 3 they added more PvP content but that doesn't play the same way. This " Deserved nerf" effected the role of the TR in PVE as well as PvP. we are supposed to be boss killers that's our role. in PvP we are melee ST DPS which means we kill one at a time, up close. The first thing we focus on is a healer after that the AoE... if you are a ranged attacker you should have almost no chance against melee if we are up close to you, period! likewise if you can get range on melee and initiate a kite we should have almost no chance, if you cant understand that, you cant be helped. Ranged classes have ways to initiate a kite on melee classes who get too close just like melee classes have ways to close the gap on ranged types who initiate a kite. niether is 100% effective but they are available. Before you get upset im not saying L2P no you cant get good enough to beat a one shot attack just like I cant get good enough to beat being CCed to death, but if they nerf the CC functionality of CWs in PvE gets nerfed as well. every nerf changed group dynamic in both PvE and PvP you cant take 4 TRs and a DC to CN and expect to beat the Dracolich but you can take 4 CWs and a DC. I would say that PvP balance is FAR BETTER than PvE ( Where some classes arent needed or wanted at all) but im assuming you think this is ok?
Remember this game is geared primarily toward PvE and if you say different you are either not paying attention or you are lying to yourself.
Um sure then how come I can ice knife 115k on my cw? debuff's sure but my tr wont hit that hard(with debuff's). enough said( i have been here since beta) Also I have been ice knifed in pvp also one shot proc my soulforge. I be dam if i can do that on my tr now so don't tell me to shut up and stop complaining because I wasn't I just don't play my tr anymore think I'm the only one Q for a dung and watch how fast you get kicked. Then go on a GWF CW or DC and then see what happens this is fact not complaints. Now if they have a pvp spell page and pve spell page that would be fine and you can nerf pvp to hell for all I care because all it makes is cry babies its like this in any game fps people cry about this set up and mmo people cry about this set up. Fact is people cry when they cant get there way when they get there way its not enough so they cry some more that's where we are today. Im done
Right now the TR is so impotent in PvE that it is not unheard of for DC and GF to top them in damage (possibly this is from the AE speed runs and the TR has no time to effectively contribute to them, it could also be the debuffs in combinations with the AE's -- I don't know but I am a skilled TR and I have fallen behind DC and GF too many times for it to be a fluke). PvP has caused severe harm to the PvE TR and this is most annoying as I dislike the PvP in this game.
A few days ago I was able to try out a new WK build my friend and I have been playtesting on Preview. It works for me staying out of range bleeding the hell out'a the GWF while in an SS-BnS rotation and exiting Smoke Bomb out of Stealth. He's debuffed to the point that he actually leaves me a sliver of health so I can restealth...and repeat the process until I can crit a Whirlwind to finish him off. Although the damage spike might be owed to a P.Vorpal.
I don't claim to good to figure this out. Heck I don't know if it works on a non-maxed out TR. So if ya'll want to give it a try, I'd be happy to hear your results. Cheers!
Yup, the same.
I've also recently respecced to a Range Perma-WK and I'm having A MUCH better time dueling GWFs... staying in stealth and not being confined to inside-the-node had really improved my chances against them... to be honest I do a bit less kills (than the SS-ITC build) but i RARELY die now in domination... even when i tank 2...
In PvE, we do lay waste to single targets, and people don't seem to realize it. The reason they don't realize it is because both CW and GWF lay waste to single targets faster than a TR. Even after the latest correction to the GWF multiplication instead of adding bug they still do more damage to a single target faster than a TR. Granted this requires the correct setup and play but such is where it stand now. And once I again I will stipulate that I am not just talking about the use of single target skills to kill a single target, I mean using the whole package (which some try to conceal and only compare direct single target abilities). Now I am aware that CW is intended to be adjusted somewhere down the road, but if it is anything like the GWF 'nerf' then they will be twice as good as they are now. Drop your theory crafting and run your parses and realize the truth of things.
why do u think no tr posted a pve vid in 8 months.
no one wants to look stupid,
still people say its fine kkkkkk so post a pve viable build at some boss so we can see that great dmg.like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-jp9hs61bg
or just find a recent(last 8 months lol) pve vid of tr i take it all back
Ive had some mild success with this kind of build, I have very little recovery though and only 13 INT with campfire buff. I can get through about 1 and 1/2 rotations using SS and BnS. I did have a debuff build centered around VP but that cooldown hit my build hard but it was tons of fun while it lasted...Anyways I usually slot LB just because I cant keep the rotation up for very long and it works well as finisher
I think TR damage probably is where it should be, it is just the other two mentioned are too high. I noticed in KR (I know it is easy but as an example) that the CW and GWF horsed up and ran ahead and before the rest of us could reach them (we just ran) they had already cleared the next batch. If all we did was ran and didn't use mounts they would have cleared everything with just the two before we could run the whole length (well except for boss). I don't think more damage is what is needed at all. In fact all the TR really needs is a daily damage ability (make SE useful and restore lurkers) and for the other two to be properly adjusted.