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Calling out Perma Stealthers [Question]
xplmao2
Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 232 Bounty Hunter
Let's say the One-Shot Lashing Blade rogue comes back. (One that could crit 35K+ IIRC).
Would you guys go back to that or stay perma?
Discuss
Would you guys go back to that or stay perma?
Discuss
Post edited by xplmao2 on
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todays lb can crit abouth 10k tops in order to be viable as build.
if u spec for dmg it can go up to 15k but this build needs at least 3 elixirs,1 heroism potion, pbark,pvorpal to work proper.
this can be viable to some extend.its still semi perma rotation ss,lb,itc
.
but dont even start this tread its never going to happen.
if there were cw pug with 20k hp running around and tr one shot him there would be crying next 6 months.
Meanwhile GWF...
Jugger Conq GF
....
If you really "build" for LB, using the correct feats as well as items it still hits for over 20k.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Side note :P I still dont understand the hr though 1v1 they will own you/run away get full heath attack you run away get full health its crazy to me but I do not have a lvl 60 hr though its only 35 atm. But yeah I feel though as tr's have been nerfed into the ground but its ok as I dont play him much anymore just dailies and log off. But thats my 1/2 cents :P
kweassa is correct. It is very possible to still hit extremely high LB numbers. I still think that perma is overall more reliable, flexible and resilient than such a high-damage TR.
Please, try to think from the overall perspective of the game. I insist. Please try to refrain from spreading around mindless anger about a nerf which was frankly, deserving in every aspect. Most reasonable people know better, but new TRs into the game quickly catch on to these wild tales about how TRs have been "wronged" somehow, which in fact, never was.
First, think about what the average HP was like back then. Nowadays, PvP has been researched to a certain extent so it is common knowledge that around 30k HP is the target amount you should seek -- if a bit of more sacrifice in certain aspects of your character, 35k. Back then, people were largely around 25k~28k.
Secondly, think about how LB used to hit before the nerf. Its been roughly nerfed for 40%. Nowadays, when you build for LB it still hits for like 20~22k. That means before the nerf it used to hit for around 33~36k. Even when not using any specialized focus for LB, just using P.Vorp enchantment alone is enough to get me a 12~13k crit. Before the nerf, this figure would have been 20k~22k.
It's literally one-shot if you build a LB-specialized TR. Even with a non-LB-specialized build, LB would hit for around 60~70% of enemy health in one attack. We're all TRs. We know that it is only under certain specific cicumstanes that an enemy may anticipate the existence of a TR and he may attempt to avoid being hit from stealth. But in a fight which involves more than two people, any chaotic confusion is enough for a TR to get a hit in that instantly kills.
It was an encounter that effectively hit harder than even SE, that can be used around every 20 seconds, which would one-shot most everyone.
Friend, there is no "learn to play" against a one-shot attack. You don't learn anything against a move that instantly kills you out of the blue. There's nothing to learn except "don't play a broken PvP like this, ever."
What makes PvP is the fight itself. How one person acts, how the other counters, retaliates, and that process of mind-games against each other. It's one thing to deal a powerful damage as an attack of opportunity and gain a decisive advantage, it's something entirely else when you just snuff someone out one-shot wthout ever having a chance to even realize someone is around.
...
I just cannot seem to understand how any right-minded person who considers him a PvPer can ever think its wrong to do away with a one-shot power, because there's nothing that concerns PvP with a game that allows a one-shot power roam free.
That's not PvPing. It's griefing.
So stop frickin' complaining about a nerf that was deserving. Get over it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
its not possible https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnJX3DPiuRU&list=UUoFv8807gqrktpl_cfDHl-g 1:24min lb on cw on mount 11,2k
this guy has profound gear,human combat spec highest dmg,ancient weapons,22str,4k power,lesser vorpal i belive even with p one it would be 13k maybe on high vizier cw lowest defence possible
nerfing something op is fine but nerfing to a point were its not viable to use is just destroying a class.
99% tr offencive encounters in pvp are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and not being able to get a group in pve is deserved? get over yourself
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
hehehe yeah u are on to something.i never even saw the guy in pvp ever.
Things changed a lot since then. I'm not gonna say more cause you will suspect me too like you suspect kweassa, which is a legit TR, but god forbid someone has moral standards. It is possible now to hit WAY higher. But it really doesn't matter, since nobody bothers to play that style any longer.
... that guy hits a 16K later on. And he's really not geared (2 artifacts? one blue). What counts is a R10 TR with radiants in offense and perfect vorpal.
WTB Class Reroll please
The only reason its "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" is because TRs don't build for it.
Its either "mega-damage glass cannon" or "unkillable stealth/ITC tank". Which one do you want? Choose ONE. Most TRs have picked the latter since the meta-changed.
Unfortunately, some of them want BOTH. TRs used to be BOTH, yes, back in its day. It was deemed OP, so it is now nerfed.
...so what's the problem again?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
highest a lashing has ever hit me is 15k and i only have 29% resist + 15% tenacity. pretty sure the rogue that did that also had vorpal since most rogues only hit 9-10k in pvp. maybe a bit more with overrun critical, but that's kinda hard to get without alerting someone of your presence b4 you use lashing.
20k is probably only gonna happen on the squishiest of wizards as everyone else can be pretty tanky.
Even if a nerf bat does come, I'll always try to find some way to make a Stealth build viable. My Elven TR was a reaction to the stealth nerf that was supposed to hit rogues back in Pre-Mod 1 release. Terrible times, but the play style would have survived even with the nerf.
■ radiants in offense for more power
■ P.Vorpal(50% flat damage increase on crits)
■ crit severity feats in Executioner (25% flat damage increase on crits)
■ overrun critical (30% flat increase in damage)
■ first strike (15% flat increase in damage)
■ Endless Assault (6% flat increase in encounter damage)
■ if Deadly Momentum in stealth, additional 15% flat increase in damage with encounters
This is all still useable, the only exception being First Strike due to changes in the timed required to end combat. Like I said, people don't really build for mega-hits any more. If you do build for it, although it won't crit for 30~35k like it used to, you still can easily get around 20~25k easily.
The only reason people don't use it any more, is because the meta has changed. TRs are now more valuable as constant harassment, rather than "combat TR" style battlefield assassins. Also, with time the build/'tactics of TRs have more and more evolved towards emphasizing finesse as a master duelist, highly focused on 1vs1s.
Nobody really thinks about the value of TRs as direct combat assistants anymore. Many TRs now regard alternate builds that are perfectly viable in big fights as being "useless", because the general sentiment is "a TR that does not concentrate in 1vs1, many-vs-1 situations to troll back nodes are useless". Like said, the meta changed.
The amount of damage resistance hasn't changed much. Deflection is a factor, but if not deflected, LB hurts just as much.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
well, i think all rogues are technically glass cannons as i don't think i have ever deflected an attack when i am proned
Do you think a TR is a PvP competitive class in late game PvP? With all that broken roar which casts interupt over time on you and threatening rush that cancels animation for knockdown of the GWFs? Or HRs that literally deflect (and heal for 2.5% from that) everything, stun/daze you through immunities and can also interrupt your DF combo even if you're CC immune? Not to mention they still deal a ton of damage even if they are built tanky.
Right now I feel like TR is the class that is only capable of killing PvE geared players which don't even know how the stealth works and poor low GS noobs that come there for a daily. And the more depressed I get with that, the more I regret I wasted my time/cash on this. And why the hell in all DnD games I've played so far are ****ing pets/lesser class which fades comparing with anything else pve/pvp wise...
WTB Class Reroll please
unfortunatly non of your so called builds work
that in the vid thats build for lb.
so whats your problem again??????
r10 tr doesnt count lol.if u need rank 10 to be viable against pve builds then thats <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
i aint spending 1k dolars so i would lose from rank 6 perma,gwf,hr.
and artifacts mean nothing rege,recovery and alll that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> doesnt help dmg one bit that was vwery close to best possible lb indeed
you just throw some randome numbers i show proff
for starters, 1st strike can not be achieved with overrun critical or deadly momentum. also, preparing overrun critical and deadly momentum is likely to make you miss with lashing. deadly momentum's buff only lasts like 3 seconds as well which means you would need to lashing immediately after a flurry which is predictable.
i did a few calcs with 18% tenacity + 39% damage from power and 20k is possible with 1st strike + perfect vorpal, but only on someone whose defense is lower than your own armor pen (which is just wizards and non-deflects on rogues). more lenient if you use overrun critical at the cost of missing completely. also, 1st strike will likely not be up much since fights can last several minutes and consecutive fights do occur b4 combat is officially over.
still, that looks only feasible for a completely maxed out rogue while perma seems achievable with a whole lot less.
Who's to say new BiS gear and fresh minds couldn't pave way to another meta? At this point in time, I'm pretty confident that we didnt start out as TR for the OP. Heck, nerfed to the ground as it is now, we still play it.
"i win" button or not, that was mainly needed for gwf's. a rogue who needed that to kill a squishy, should just delete their character. only other time i would use it is because some perma or squishy was running a lot and i didn't feel like chasing them for 5 min.
what happened is that now we have no reliable encounters for dps and the new gwf's have relegated us to support positions. i can't even imagine a combat rogue beating that ridiculous class anymore. it was diffiicult to fight gwf's b4 mod 3 and now it just seems impossible.
i don't even bother using lashing anymore as i help out more throwing down smoke bombs and dazing strikes.
I never posted about viability of such gameplay. I only said that it is possible to hit very high with LB, in the right conditions. This is it and nothing more. Perma is still better without contest.
Apparently the fact that you seem to either leave out, or cannot understand certain parts of my post which already have addressed your so-called "rebuttal" before it ever happened.
Did I not mention "the meta has changed"? Do you even understand what this means?
Besides, whether the meta changed or not you simply hang up a strawman argument which seems to suggest TRs have been unjustly nerfed or anything, when in fact, there is just no friggin' justifying a one-shot power. You say they "nerfed it to being useless", as well as "all offensive encounters are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" -- which simply shows how frickin' warped and biased your concept of PvP for TRs is. Just no consideration for the game at all, from the shoes of the receiving end, have you?
For some, including yourself, unless the power hits so hard that it instantly kills and simply denies any gameplay at all for the opponent.. then its "useless" and "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" and "not viable".
Great frickin' view on PvP balance there. Explains a lot about what you perceive as "viable".
Not. :rolleyes:
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Like I said, TRs don't have enough damage because nobody builds for damage any more -- because if you build for damage then you can't become the "unkillable" TR with the crapshi* stealth-ITC-SS-stealth-ITC-SS rotations any more.
Before the nerf, LB friggin' hit so hard by itself that basically it was LB - oneshot kill - SS, go fiddle around until LB recharge, and then rinse and repeat. Nowadays, if you build for it you can still bring an average 30k CW or a HR down to 10k from full health with one attack. The difference is the opponents have some HP left to try to play the game out and seek retaliation, instead of simply being denied a game at all.
The above problem can be simply rectified by playing a "team game", a many vs. many situation where the situation can be manipulated in favor of the TR, as well as team up with your own team in bringing down enemy players efficiently. Select a focus target for the team, hit someone with an LB and damage him big, have the CW CC him to buy your time to escape, then let the HR finish him from afar. This is what the original "Combat TR" concept is about when I first suggested it, not some "I go facetank every enemy as if I was not a TR at all" sort of builds that profess to be one.
But ofcourse, the meta has changed. TRs are now expected to be the invincible 1vs1 duelists, as well as unkillable many vs1 trollers. Any TR build or concept that does not fit this role is now simply dismissed as "not viable" from some people, because the general tactics and strategy surrounding how to play TRs have been changed ---- NOT BECAUSE OUR OFFENSIVE POWERS ARE <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
It's a frickin' school of thought stemming up from TRs way too much engrossed in 1vs1 and node-trolling scenarios, as well as the bloated self-conscious egos coming from being "unkillable", that warps and distorts the view in what is viable in a game or not. Don't let yourself get caught up by it. Nothing good comes out of it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'