okumbaMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited March 2014
Can someone explain the way how to "easily" check skills if armorpen is working or not?
I do have ACT and can parse, just wanted to get a guideline of how to do it best to get solid comparable values.
Hi guys ... strange thing on Icy Rays tooltip I need confirming (or maybe explaining!)
Mousing over the power in the character sheet > powers tab, the damage is one value, but when I put it into either my mastery bar or my skill bar the damage listed decreases. Here's a combined screenshot:
Can someone explain the way how to "easily" check skills if armorpen is working or not?
I do have ACT and can parse, just wanted to get a guideline of how to do it best to get solid comparable values.
anyone? davecheese maybe you can explain the way you parsed if armorpen is working or not?
Hey, first time poster.....many time reader....wanted to add my two cents.
Prior to seeing this post, I thought "what is wrong with my rotation/skill setup". I had been so annoyed with my performance in pvp and thought "what was I doing wrong in this patch that was different from other patches". Nice to know that 75% of the abilities I use in pvp are BROKEN, (Devs - read: why invest money in this game - no incentive).
I used to play WoW....I left it because companies are more interested in getting new players and increasing market share than they are interested in perfecting the product......more expansions, less quality.
I would love to propose a picket/protest for all CWs in game for a day or so (week?) where we utilize self control and we DON'T PLAY......fix your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> before expanding it.....how does that not make sense?
DEVS - continued non-response to this issue is unacceptable; and please, don't reply with - we are aware of the issue (don't care) and are working on it (hope you forget).
I voted with my wallet before and I will do so again. There is nothing about this game that makes it irreplaceable. Devote more staff to correcting bugs and less to $$$expansions$$$
Edit > sorry, you've already posted to the bug forum - thank you!
What do other CW's think about a protest of some sort? Maybe we could all find a high terrain point, meet in the same instance, and leap off the top? Having 50 or so CWs leaping to their death in bug protest would make an amusing video...!
Edit > sorry, you've already posted to the bug forum - thank you!
What do other CW's think about a protest of some sort? Maybe we could all find a high terrain point, meet in the same instance, and leap off the top? Having 50 or so CWs leaping to their death in bug protest would make an amusing video...!
^ and the problem is being OP in pve (dps)
thank god theyre adjusting the dps/unlimited cap. I can properly play a CONTROL wizard now, hopefully. I'm tired of people judging my cw based on the paingiver chart. who knows, maybe we'll see more MoF in mod3?
Ray of Enfeeblement - doesn't show the cooldown time when in tab
Chill Strike - tool tip doesn't show updated range with Far Spell feat
Magic Missile - tool tip doesn't show updated range with Far Spell feat
I went and retested the state of Armor Penetration on all CW powers and related features.
All tests done on Preview Shard, 31st May 2014 and verified using ACT with Neverwinter Plugin.
Does ArP work with the following abilities?
At-Will: Magic missile yes but not the extra 2 hits on 3rd hit
Ray of frost yes
Chilling cloud yes Scorching burst: no
Storm Pillar yes for primary target but not the AoE arcs
Encounters:
Chill strike yes, Mastery yes Conduit of Ice no, Mastery no Entangling Force no, Mastery no
Repel no, Mastery no
Shield pulse yes, Mastery yes
Icy Terrain yes, Mastery yes
Sudden storm yes
Sudden storm Mastery primary yes arc damage to secondary targets no Sudden storm arc no (separate entry in ACT) Fanning the Flame (FtF) no after first tick FtF Mastery: only Main target first tick does normal damage, subsequent ticks no, no on AoE secondary targets
FtF: Fanned flame yes
FtF: Final flame yes
FtF: Gathering flame yes RoE no, Mastery no
Icy Rays no, Mastery no
Steal time yes, Mastery yes SotEA: Shard slam no
SoTEA: Shardsplosion yes
Daily:
Singularity yes
Ice Storm yes
Oppressive Force yes Ice Knife no
Furious Immorlation yes
Maelstrom of Chaos yes but cannot crit
Others:
Storm spell yes
Elemental Empowerment yes Rimfire: no after first tick
Smoulder: no after first tick Elven ferocity boon no (affects all classes)
Shadowtouched boon no (affects all classes)
Basically there are 3 situations where ArP does almost nothing for you, damage wise.
1. Single target damage setup, especially in PvP. If you slot Entangling Force, Icy Rays, RoE, Ice Knife and Half of MM ArP does nothing.
2. Master of Flame Paragon. Fanning the flame and Scorching Burst don't work with ArP. Additionally Rimfire and smoulder, your main DoT mechanic doesn't benefit from ArP either. This really limits the potential of MoF builds out there.
3. Any kind of DoT ability.
Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
Steal time yes, Mastery yes SotEA: Shard slam no
SoTEA: Shardsplosion yes
really appreciate your testing, but allow me a question or even a comment. I also tested my main Rota's and I agree to all of your's except Steal Time and Shard.
When I did my testing I fired the encounters first on target dummies, noticed the combatlog and calculated the two damage values and calculated the differences for some shots. After seeing, that the differences are more or less equal I went in the ring and looked for group of mobs and shoot again. Here I noticed for Steal time as well as for both Shard hits a difference. See the values...
In the upper part the test Dummy results and below the results from the mob group (2 x 18% / 16% armor) in dread ring.
When you look at the differences you see that e.g. the difference for Steal time ist not 40% anymore, but only 38.2% which is 1.8% lower than the value from the test dummies. Same for Shard. Opposite to this have a look at Chill Strike where the 10% are stable.
=> So Steal time and Shard only grant 90% max reduction of the armor or other way round the damage is reduced by 1.8%-points
... or maybe the combatlog ist broken for the value in brackets.
Having seen this, I did another testing for Steal time with another group of mobs (20% / 2 x 16% / 14% armor).
For the first test, I saw the same behaviour with the 10% of armor reduced difference. For the next test with lower ARP you see that with lower ARP the damage value decreases as expected based on the armor of the foes, but always with this strange 10% base reduction.
=> So all three powers Steal time, Shard Slam and Shardsplosion incorporate ARP
=> there is a little bug of 10% of the foes armor a) not incorporated correctly or b) not shown correctly in combatlog (bracket value)
@xuneth1,
Thank you for writing in and it's always good to have independent tests.
Regarding your data:
It seems likely the tests were conducted with full High Vizier sets. Since HV applies a debuff multiplier it actually interferes with the effects of armor penetration as both are used to calculate end damage. I recommend testing with 2 half sets as well as speccing out of elemental empowerment to avoid proccing the debuff bonus.
When testing vs dummies they have zero damage resistance (DR) and hence the logs will always show full damage and full debuff against them, regardless of the attacker's actual ArP. The 10% for chill strike and 40% for steal time is not resistance ignored (RI) at work, but rather the debuffs proccing.
Number in brackets is base damage, number outside bracket is actual dealt damage. I suspect there may have been a mix up?
Chill strike gets 10% bonus damage due to proccing 1 stack of High Vizier debuff.
Steal time gets 40% bonus damage due to proccing 3 stacks of High Vizier debuff plus 1 stack of Elemental Empowerment debuff. (see Grimah's guide for how HV procs with encounters)
When tests were repeated against mobs what is shown is not really the RI effect but rather the High Vizier/Elemental Empowerment debuff bonus and how they scale to mob DR.
For example, the steal time damage is only 38.2% rather than 40%. This is NOT due to the whether the skill utilises ArP but rather due to the debuff mitigation effect from enemies.
The actual debuff % applied from above multipliers are reduced by the mob's damage resistance stat (PvE only)
Because these abilities 'reduces target defense' in some way, including High Prophets, Plague fire Enchantment, Terror Enchantment and Elemental Empowerment, the amount debuffed per stack is first reduced by the mob's damage resistance modifier, regardless of the attackers' resistance ignored % stat. It is then subject to the difference between the attacker's mitigation ignored stat and the mob's damage resist stat.
Debuff calculation for High Prophet, Plague fire, Terror and Elemental Empowerment:
For example, a 'brute mob' such as a Fey troll has 20% damage resistance.
Even if you already have >20% resistance ignored from ArP:
For 3 stacks of high prophet
Effective debuff = 10 * (1 - 0.2) * (1 + 0.2 - 0.2) = 10 * 0.8 = 8% per stack or 24% for 3 stacks
If attacker had zero armor penetration
Effective debuff = 10 * (1 - 0.2) * (1 + 0 - 0.2) = 10 * 0.8 * 0.8 = 6.4% per stack or 19.2% for 3 stacks
This means for a DPSer, the effectiveness they receiver out of placed debuffs is always going to be reduced by the mob’s DR. If the DPSer don’t have high enough mitigation ignored they get reduction applied twice multiplicatively.
Debuff calculation for High Vizier
High Vizier debuffs somehow only have 1 DR multiplier applied:
Effective HV debuff = base debuff * (1+your mitigation ignored% - enemy damage resist%)
This means you get full 10% from High Viz if you have enough mitigation.
Overall formula for debuff interaction is thus
Debuffed damage = base damage * [no. of stacks * base debuff% * (1- enemy damage resist%) * (1+ attacker mitigation ignored% - enemy damage resist%)] *(1+ booster multipliers%)
Buffs and mob damage reduction is then applied to that damage to calculate overall damage dealt. Defense debuff multipliers are additive in their effects.
What I am saying is that most CWs understand HV debuff is 10% per stack. That is only true on target dummies. In PvE the magnitude of the elemental empowerment debuff is scaled relative to the target's DR and the attacker's RI (ArP). With HV given enough ArP you will get the full 10% debuff per stack, but for things like Plaguefire and EE you will NEVER get the full extent of the debuff regardless of your ArP due to the built in target defense constraints. This is actually quite a big deal, but very largely unknown in the community and I cannot emphasise it enough.
This is why there was inconsistency with steal time at 38.2% for mobs at 18% DR. That is 3 x HV debuff at 10% plus elemental empowerment debuff at 8.2%
Elemental empowerment debuff = 10 * (1- 0.18) = 10*0.82 = 8.2%
For SotEA data it's similar. Shard procs 1 stack HV plus elemental empowerment because it's an arcane skill, so 10+8.2 = 18.2% debuff multiplier.
For data in the second table, again, what we observe is merely the interaction between attacker's ArP and the size of the HV/EE debuff rather than the actual dependence of ArP in effective skill damage. If you can, please repeat the tests without HV set and EE debuff (use preview shard and respec), and see what you get.
Above all, don't be afraid to keep questioning and checking and apologies in advance if I sound critical, it's unintended. It's by question and looking into data and anomalies like you did that we gain insights into the game mechanics.
Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
0
xuneth1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited June 2014
Hey theosymphany,
many, many thanks for this great explaintation. I don't get you wrong, as I'm really interested to figure out more about this things and I had no idea how the 1,8% difference occured. Now it's clear, thanks!!!
But what about Shard Slam. In the Dummy test the base damage was between 3.340 - 3.809 (knowing that there is only a small nuber of shots) and against mobs between 3.294 -3.751. Also in comparison to other powers, the difference of (base dmg) to dmg is still in the same range.
I would interpretate that there is ARP recognized for Slam. But I will test again in the next days...
Can someone tell me if tempest magic works with tiefling bloodhunt racial ? It was a bug one year ago but i dont find any information now if it was fixed or not.
"A lot of the Armor Penetration issues are being worked on now for a tentative release for our next module. The current implementation of the fix should resolve it not working for all classes and powers. It's a fairly complicated solution so it will not likley be made for M3 at all. "
Comments
P.S. Its obvious, that devs hate us and hate fixing their mistakes unless absolutely necessary.
Here's a link to my thread over the Bug Reports list. Please visit and keep it alive!
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?606781-Control-Wizard-bug-list
I do have ACT and can parse, just wanted to get a guideline of how to do it best to get solid comparable values.
Mousing over the power in the character sheet > powers tab, the damage is one value, but when I put it into either my mastery bar or my skill bar the damage listed decreases. Here's a combined screenshot:
Any thoughts?
anyone? davecheese maybe you can explain the way you parsed if armorpen is working or not?
I have updated my list to reflect the findings.
Prior to seeing this post, I thought "what is wrong with my rotation/skill setup". I had been so annoyed with my performance in pvp and thought "what was I doing wrong in this patch that was different from other patches". Nice to know that 75% of the abilities I use in pvp are BROKEN, (Devs - read: why invest money in this game - no incentive).
I used to play WoW....I left it because companies are more interested in getting new players and increasing market share than they are interested in perfecting the product......more expansions, less quality.
I would love to propose a picket/protest for all CWs in game for a day or so (week?) where we utilize self control and we DON'T PLAY......fix your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> before expanding it.....how does that not make sense?
DEVS - continued non-response to this issue is unacceptable; and please, don't reply with - we are aware of the issue (don't care) and are working on it (hope you forget).
I voted with my wallet before and I will do so again. There is nothing about this game that makes it irreplaceable. Devote more staff to correcting bugs and less to $$$expansions$$$
What do other CW's think about a protest of some sort? Maybe we could all find a high terrain point, meet in the same instance, and leap off the top? Having 50 or so CWs leaping to their death in bug protest would make an amusing video...!
This is a totally non-constructive feedback. And dev are aware of CW problem : http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?635191-Official-Feedback-Thread-Great-Weapon-Fighter-Changes&p=7577631&viewfull=1#post7577631
thank god theyre adjusting the dps/unlimited cap. I can properly play a CONTROL wizard now, hopefully. I'm tired of people judging my cw based on the paingiver chart. who knows, maybe we'll see more MoF in mod3?
- Furious Immolation is now able to critically hit and its damage has been reduced by 30%.
Ray of Enfeeblement - doesn't show the cooldown time when in tab
Chill Strike - tool tip doesn't show updated range with Far Spell feat
Magic Missile - tool tip doesn't show updated range with Far Spell feat
All tests done on Preview Shard, 31st May 2014 and verified using ACT with Neverwinter Plugin.
Does ArP work with the following abilities?
At-Will:
Magic missile yes but not the extra 2 hits on 3rd hit
Ray of frost yes
Chilling cloud yes
Scorching burst: no
Storm Pillar yes for primary target but not the AoE arcs
Encounters:
Chill strike yes, Mastery yes
Conduit of Ice no, Mastery no
Entangling Force no, Mastery no
Repel no, Mastery no
Shield pulse yes, Mastery yes
Icy Terrain yes, Mastery yes
Sudden storm yes
Sudden storm Mastery primary yes arc damage to secondary targets no
Sudden storm arc no (separate entry in ACT)
Fanning the Flame (FtF) no after first tick
FtF Mastery: only Main target first tick does normal damage, subsequent ticks no, no on AoE secondary targets
FtF: Fanned flame yes
FtF: Final flame yes
FtF: Gathering flame yes
RoE no, Mastery no
Icy Rays no, Mastery no
Steal time yes, Mastery yes
SotEA: Shard slam no
SoTEA: Shardsplosion yes
Daily:
Singularity yes
Ice Storm yes
Oppressive Force yes
Ice Knife no
Furious Immorlation yes
Maelstrom of Chaos yes but cannot crit
Others:
Storm spell yes
Elemental Empowerment yes
Rimfire: no after first tick
Smoulder: no after first tick
Elven ferocity boon no (affects all classes)
Shadowtouched boon no (affects all classes)
Basically there are 3 situations where ArP does almost nothing for you, damage wise.
1. Single target damage setup, especially in PvP. If you slot Entangling Force, Icy Rays, RoE, Ice Knife and Half of MM ArP does nothing.
2. Master of Flame Paragon. Fanning the flame and Scorching Burst don't work with ArP. Additionally Rimfire and smoulder, your main DoT mechanic doesn't benefit from ArP either. This really limits the potential of MoF builds out there.
3. Any kind of DoT ability.
Cross posted also in
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?606781-Control-Wizard-bug-list&p=8066521&viewfull=1#post8066521
Guild and guide info
Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
really appreciate your testing, but allow me a question or even a comment. I also tested my main Rota's and I agree to all of your's except Steal Time and Shard.
When I did my testing I fired the encounters first on target dummies, noticed the combatlog and calculated the two damage values and calculated the differences for some shots. After seeing, that the differences are more or less equal I went in the ring and looked for group of mobs and shoot again. Here I noticed for Steal time as well as for both Shard hits a difference. See the values...
In the upper part the test Dummy results and below the results from the mob group (2 x 18% / 16% armor) in dread ring.
When you look at the differences you see that e.g. the difference for Steal time ist not 40% anymore, but only 38.2% which is 1.8% lower than the value from the test dummies. Same for Shard. Opposite to this have a look at Chill Strike where the 10% are stable.
=> So Steal time and Shard only grant 90% max reduction of the armor or other way round the damage is reduced by 1.8%-points
... or maybe the combatlog ist broken for the value in brackets.
Having seen this, I did another testing for Steal time with another group of mobs (20% / 2 x 16% / 14% armor).
For the first test, I saw the same behaviour with the 10% of armor reduced difference. For the next test with lower ARP you see that with lower ARP the damage value decreases as expected based on the armor of the foes, but always with this strange 10% base reduction.
=> So all three powers Steal time, Shard Slam and Shardsplosion incorporate ARP
=> there is a little bug of 10% of the foes armor a) not incorporated correctly or b) not shown correctly in combatlog (bracket value)
:cool:
Xuneth
Thank you for writing in and it's always good to have independent tests.
Regarding your data:
It seems likely the tests were conducted with full High Vizier sets. Since HV applies a debuff multiplier it actually interferes with the effects of armor penetration as both are used to calculate end damage. I recommend testing with 2 half sets as well as speccing out of elemental empowerment to avoid proccing the debuff bonus.
When testing vs dummies they have zero damage resistance (DR) and hence the logs will always show full damage and full debuff against them, regardless of the attacker's actual ArP. The 10% for chill strike and 40% for steal time is not resistance ignored (RI) at work, but rather the debuffs proccing.
Number in brackets is base damage, number outside bracket is actual dealt damage. I suspect there may have been a mix up?
Chill strike gets 10% bonus damage due to proccing 1 stack of High Vizier debuff.
Steal time gets 40% bonus damage due to proccing 3 stacks of High Vizier debuff plus 1 stack of Elemental Empowerment debuff. (see Grimah's guide for how HV procs with encounters)
When tests were repeated against mobs what is shown is not really the RI effect but rather the High Vizier/Elemental Empowerment debuff bonus and how they scale to mob DR.
For example, the steal time damage is only 38.2% rather than 40%. This is NOT due to the whether the skill utilises ArP but rather due to the debuff mitigation effect from enemies.
This is not easily explained and I'll go over it in detail in my next guide, but the reason behind this increase is posted here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?646931-Armor-pen-is-required-for-max-effectiveness-of-some-debuffs-(HP-HV-PF-Terror-EE)
What I am saying is that most CWs understand HV debuff is 10% per stack. That is only true on target dummies. In PvE the magnitude of the elemental empowerment debuff is scaled relative to the target's DR and the attacker's RI (ArP). With HV given enough ArP you will get the full 10% debuff per stack, but for things like Plaguefire and EE you will NEVER get the full extent of the debuff regardless of your ArP due to the built in target defense constraints. This is actually quite a big deal, but very largely unknown in the community and I cannot emphasise it enough.
This is why there was inconsistency with steal time at 38.2% for mobs at 18% DR. That is 3 x HV debuff at 10% plus elemental empowerment debuff at 8.2%
Elemental empowerment debuff = 10 * (1- 0.18) = 10*0.82 = 8.2%
For SotEA data it's similar. Shard procs 1 stack HV plus elemental empowerment because it's an arcane skill, so 10+8.2 = 18.2% debuff multiplier.
For data in the second table, again, what we observe is merely the interaction between attacker's ArP and the size of the HV/EE debuff rather than the actual dependence of ArP in effective skill damage. If you can, please repeat the tests without HV set and EE debuff (use preview shard and respec), and see what you get.
Above all, don't be afraid to keep questioning and checking and apologies in advance if I sound critical, it's unintended. It's by question and looking into data and anomalies like you did that we gain insights into the game mechanics.
Guild and guide info
Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
many, many thanks for this great explaintation. I don't get you wrong, as I'm really interested to figure out more about this things and I had no idea how the 1,8% difference occured. Now it's clear, thanks!!!
But what about Shard Slam. In the Dummy test the base damage was between 3.340 - 3.809 (knowing that there is only a small nuber of shots) and against mobs between 3.294 -3.751. Also in comparison to other powers, the difference of (base dmg) to dmg is still in the same range.
I would interpretate that there is ARP recognized for Slam. But I will test again in the next days...
Can someone tell me if tempest magic works with tiefling bloodhunt racial ? It was a bug one year ago but i dont find any information now if it was fixed or not.
"A lot of the Armor Penetration issues are being worked on now for a tentative release for our next module. The current implementation of the fix should resolve it not working for all classes and powers. It's a fairly complicated solution so it will not likley be made for M3 at all. "
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?681901-Curse-of-Icewind-Dale-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-15-20140528a-3&p=8080591&viewfull=1#post8080591