Problem is gear score is not a good way to judge a player.
A player could have 30K Gear Score and not fight on the points. That's not a good player.
They could lack and eye coordination and miss skill shots thus wasting rotations.
They could use a build which is better in PvE than PvP which will make them perform less effectively.
They may not use dodges and try to face tank or miss dodges that they do try t activate.
They could just be playing a class which does not fir their playstyle which will directly result how well they play.
Two people with equal gear score will not perform equally.
No suggestion based on gear score is a good one. Gear can augment a player's skill. It does not define it. Ever.
The thing is, its a helluva better to have someone doing all those things and having 14k GS, rather than someone who does all that in 9k GS. Sure, we all know that as you slowly rise in ranks you meet more and more of those "bloated GS" people with the combination of:
[good gear] + [builds unsuitable for PvP] + [low PvP skill] + [headstrong egos that don't listen to suggestions from better players]
...
But even still, having a 14k GS 28k HP meatshield helps a lot more than the 9k 21k HP meatshields, if you get what I mean.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
edited June 2014
The solution to GS issues is to just remove gear from the occasion entirely. Everyone builds their PVP build, and they have a set number of points they can allocate to the various stats. Feat and power set ups are kept, but all those gear associated things are completely equalized for everyone. Then your matchmaking would be based just on win/loss ratios.
But of course no one wants to do that. After all, part of the reason people play RPGs is to get progressively stronger, and for a large crowd of people, PVP is the way they test that increase in strength. Equality is not the goal it would seem.
Still, I do like the idea of equalization. But then people would just game the system, such that there's a way to be disproportionately powerful for your "handicap setting" (or whatever the terminology would be).
I'd say that going off win/loss ratio would be enough, but that's only true if the pool of PVPers is sufficiently large.
The thing is, its a helluva better to have someone doing all those things and having 14k GS, rather than someone who does all that in 9k GS. Sure, we all know that as you slowly rise in ranks you meet more and more of those "bloated GS" people with the combination of:
[good gear] + [builds unsuitable for PvP] + [low PvP skill] + [headstrong egos that don't listen to suggestions from better players]
...
But even still, having a 14k GS 28k HP meatshield helps a lot more than the 9k 21k HP meatshields, if you get what I mean.
True, but that 28k meatshield is just a big hunk of meat getting torn apart by a buncha dogs without the skill to drive the dogs away, no?
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True, but that 28k meatshield is just a big hunk of meat getting torn apart by a buncha dogs without the skill to drive the dogs away, no?
correct, but the 28khp meatshield has 7k hp on top of the 21k hp meatsheild.. so the 28khp meatshield has far more survivability thus stalling for the better players to get back
Don't waste my time.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Which is where elo fits in.
Elo is a skill level rating. It's goal is to match you up with players of equal skill.
Gear augments your skill. It does not define it.
So two players with the same score does not ever mean they are competitive. A bad player is a bad player. A good one is a good one. And players will either perform above or below the average player with their gear score.
A bad player will perform better with better gear but that does not mean they are competitive with similarly geared players. It means players will need to either be less skilled with better gear, equally skileld with the same gear or more skilled with worse gear to be competitive.
If you put a bad player against good players with similar gear score they will be torn to pieces every time.
If you put good players against bad players with the same gear score they will tear them apart every time.
The Elo System seeks to put a number on their actual performance level which includes their Gear Score because their gear effects their performance.
It's not a debate that can be won. Seriously. Gear score comparisons assume players perform equally. They don't.
Gear scores will never, ever be directly included into the equation. It's just a bad way to judge skill especially since just because a person has good gear doesn't mean they have a good gear set up.
Which is just another layer because not all gear scores are equal. You can stack anything to get high GS but it doesn't mean it will make you perform better. Any min/maxer can tell you that.
Problem is gear score is not a good way to judge a player.
A player could have 30K Gear Score and not fight on the points. That's not a good player.
They could lack and eye coordination and miss skill shots thus wasting rotations.
They could use a build which is better in PvE than PvP which will make them perform less effectively.
They may not use dodges and try to face tank or miss dodges that they do try t activate.
They could just be playing a class which does not fir their playstyle which will directly result how well they play.
Two people with equal gear score will not perform equally.
No suggestion based on gear score is a good one. Gear can augment a player's skill. It does not define it. Ever.
No amount of asking for it will ever change it. It's a fact. That's why matchmaking systems are required for games that do not vary in gear. Player skill is player skill. The gear can only help it.
What uniform system of measurement is there? People say GS because it is there. We have nothing else. We have the mysterious elo which means nothing to anyone other than very slightly more even matches sometimes. If the same standards used to score individual performance during a match is any indication of the standards used in elo rankings, the system is hopelessly broken because individual scoring in a match is hopelessly tilted against actual winning behaviors.
Which is where elo fits in.
Elo is a skill level rating. It's goal is to match you up with players of equal skill.
Gear augments your skill. It does not define it.
So two players with the same score does not ever mean they are competitive. A bad player is a bad player. A good one is a good one. And players will either perform above or below the average player with their gear score.
A bad player will perform better with better gear but that does not mean they are competitive with similarly geared players. It means players will need to either be less skilled with better gear, equally skileld with the same gear or more skilled with worse gear to be competitive.
If you put a bad player against good players with similar gear score they will be torn to pieces every time.
If you put good players against bad players with the same gear score they will tear them apart every time.
The Elo System seeks to put a number on their actual performance level which includes their Gear Score because their gear effects their performance.
It's not a debate that can be won. Seriously. Gear score comparisons assume players perform equally. They don't.
Gear scores will never, ever be directly included into the equation. It's just a bad way to judge skill especially since just because a person has good gear doesn't mean they have a good gear set up.
Which is just another layer because not all gear scores are equal. You can stack anything to get high GS but it doesn't mean it will make you perform better. Any min/maxer can tell you that.
There is the generally true assumption that a player with a character that has a high GS is more committed to his character than a player with a character that has low GS. People will argue that gear is all that matters. I argue against that, because there is a small percentage of new level 60 8k players that really care about their characters and are improving them. But the vast majority of 6k-9k level 60 players really dont care. It isnt obvious just from GS but from doing literally hundreds of matches with people in that range. They never made an effort to learn about pvp because you can see them doing exactly everything extremely wrong. Your not going to run into many 16k people in pvp who do most things wrong, let along everything.
That is why we say GS. It is all that we have to go by and it is a generally good indication of how much that player cares about being good at the game.
No one wants every single detail of the elo to be published. But something. Even the leaderboard is without numbered ranks. We want enough to know that it is actually a uniform, consistent system. Truth is always better than not knowing, because honestly even if the truth is bad, when people do not know it, they will imagine things far worse than the truth simply because it is all they have to go on. That kind of viral communal perception can be deadly to any kind of social networking system.
True, but that 28k meatshield is just a big hunk of meat getting torn apart by a buncha dogs without the skill to drive the dogs away, no?
Gah! He doesnt need to drive the dogs away. He just needs to last long enough on the node for the dps to drive the dogs away. When I see a GWF in my pug with like 32k hp, full avatar gear, no tenacity at all, I am like "just keep going to node 2 and run around there and wave your sword around. No matter what, just keep doing that and we will be golden". That normally works great in a pug believe it or not, even with a totally pvp-brainless gwf trying to eek out his daily.
How can you talk about ELO in a system that rewards people for harming their own team with personal points?
A fix for personal points (not team points) could be:
- No points for actually having CAPPED a base (instead of +300). This one is crucial!
- Ticking personal points for standing on an enemy-capped base (contesting/capping).
- Ticking personal points for standing on an own base while an enemy is on it (keeping the enemy from capping).
- Shared/Less points when more players than necessary from the same team are standing on the same base.
- 100 Points for a kill instead of 50. 75 Points for assisting.
- Ticking personal points for all team members when team points are ticking.
Example - enemy-capped base, 2 enemy players on it:
- You stand on that base: 4 points/sec are ticking.
- 2 from your team stand on that base: 4 points/sec are ticking for each.
- 3 from your team stand on that base: since you are 3v2 against your enemy and cause that your team is outnumbered on the other bases, 2 points/sec for each.
But as long as the system rewards people for actually harming the own team, we have to deal with it.
As long as these changes aren't there, ELO will always be a joke, as really good players that make a difference in a match are punished, while griefers are rewarded.
I enjoyed solo-queueing pre-matchmaking, but now it's impossible. I always get matched up with players hunting for personal points, so I have to do all the work by contesting bases against 3 - 4 players (as a CW!!!), while my teammates just run away from fights and come to me in the last second to get their +300. And, even if the match doesn't end with my team camping in our spawn after 3 minutes, I am of course the last one in score with the most deaths. And when I try to explain to my team why we lost and that hunting for personal points is bad, I get the usual <<Remark edited>>
And you are discussing ELO?
wow this is an amazing idea, please devs.. this is the change pvp needs! not those ridiculous 8s mounting timers!
wow this is an amazing idea, please devs.. this is the change pvp needs! not those ridiculous 8s mounting timers!
they'd have to change the name of pvp domination to pvp battle domination or something indicating that the fighting is not secondary to dominating base caps. i'd rather they add new and traditional pvp options than change the existing one.
Which is where elo fits in.
Elo is a skill level rating. It's goal is to match you up with players of equal skill.
Gear augments your skill. It does not define it.
So two players with the same score does not ever mean they are competitive. A bad player is a bad player. A good one is a good one. And players will either perform above or below the average player with their gear score.
A bad player will perform better with better gear but that does not mean they are competitive with similarly geared players. It means players will need to either be less skilled with better gear, equally skileld with the same gear or more skilled with worse gear to be competitive.
If you put a bad player against good players with similar gear score they will be torn to pieces every time.
If you put good players against bad players with the same gear score they will tear them apart every time.
The Elo System seeks to put a number on their actual performance level which includes their Gear Score because their gear effects their performance.
It's not a debate that can be won. Seriously. Gear score comparisons assume players perform equally. They don't.
Gear scores will never, ever be directly included into the equation. It's just a bad way to judge skill especially since just because a person has good gear doesn't mean they have a good gear set up.
Which is just another layer because not all gear scores are equal. You can stack anything to get high GS but it doesn't mean it will make you perform better. Any min/maxer can tell you that.
The way I see it, everything in PvP can be compared to competitive fighting sports -- wrestling, boxing, judo, taekwondo, MMA, whatever.
Skill is skill, obviously. However, gear/spec/stat is the equivalent of weight division. Every fighting sport acknowledges the difference between human performance based on physical conditions. In actual bouts/matches, the difference of a mere few centimeters in the arm's length/reach is considered a huge advantage. When somebody is taller and heavier, the scope and power of his physical being is considered as an innate advantage which lighter, shorter people find it quite impossible to overcome. In reality, provided similar skill level, a featherweight has no chance at all against a heavyweight. The power, the stamina, speed, everything is different.
Same with gear/spec. From time to time there may be instances where a very skilled person may defeat someone with higher GS. However, in reality, you are only as powerful as your build/GS. If there is someone who is at a certain level of skill, then there are always someone who is close to that level. When those two meet in the field, and when one of them is in a disadvantage in gear/spec, then that disadvantage will determine the fight.
Human skill level cannot be translated into mere numbers. Hence, every fighter/player must first prepare oneself as best as possible in objective elements of combat which CAN be numerically translated -- weight, height, stamina, power, reach, speed, etc etc.. and only after this preparation is complete, does 'skill' start to matter. This is the reason why fighting sports have weight divisions.
Under that premise, IMO low GS people -- no matter what their skill -- are ultimately in the featherweight division. People with high GS -- like it or not -- are in the heavyweight division. Sure, people with high GS may lose embarassingly to those with lower GS, but these sort of results are usually abnormal to begin with -- we first suppose the person with low GS is exceptionally talented, and then we suppose the guy with much higher GS is exceptionally stupid. Leave out these sort of abnormal "what-ifs" -- and always pertain to the average, most likely scenario.
And in that scenario, it is undeniable that the person with higher GS has higher chance of winning. Repeat again -- this is why they have weight division in real world fighting sports. Physical difference matters, and it matters big. Same with PvP -- the difference i "physical" -- stats / spec / gear -- matter heavily.
High GS does not necessarily mean that person is competitive. No doubt. But no matter how incompetent a fighter is, we don't put a heavyweight fighter in the same ring with featherweights. Competence or no, the level of basic preparation -- the 'physical' conditioning is different. It should be a factor in determining matches, for sure.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
I am 6' tall and 200 pounds. I look strong but if you throw me into a fight against an actual wrestler in my division based on nothing more than physical size and I'll get destroyed. That's why they also don't use those brackets as the be all and end all at the lower ranks.
And when you talk about professionals, well that's just that. They are all at a competitive level where the bigger advantages come from their size. Thatis not the case in an MMO where a PvE player with 20K GS can queue for PvP for the first time and not only have a PvE build but simply be unprepared for the style of combat.
I seriously doubt anybody here is willing to argue that being a good PvE player means you will do well in PvP. It's just not true.
The thing is, in video games the "phsyical size" is hand eye coordination, tactics, playstyle...etc. Gear is not the physical size.
It's the players ability to fight against other players which matters. Gear helps that but it doesn't define that.
Again, when you disregard professional sports (bad analogy) and look to games where phsyical size is not the standard you'll find the Elo System and other similar set-ups. The Elo System was designed for chess. It is designed to judge a players skill. It's not perfect but it's fairly close and required for a game where the chances to win are defined by something which can not be judged any other way.
That is why the Elo System and similar set-ups were used to judge players in first person shooters. Can you really argue all people who pick up a FPS game can play a FPS equally well? No. Don't bother please.
Neverwinter has the added element of gear score but it follows the exact same principals. You can not say two players with equal gear are competitive. They are not. If a player with 20K gear score is being controlled by somebody with absolutely horrible hand eye coordination the same rules apply as a FPS or a chess match. They gear will make them hit harder or survive longer but it will not make them hit, make them dodge, make them survive. It will only improve their chances.
The Elo System will take people of comprable chances of winning and match them together. If a player has high gear score but is not a good player they will be matched up with higher skilled but less geared players that should be competitive regardless of the difference in gear.
And really...please...think it out. Look up the Elo System. Look up every FPS in the world. Look up every single Battle Arena Game.
They all match based on a system which attempts to judge player skill/competitiveness/chancetowin/whateveryouwanttocallit.
It's done. It works. And it works whether the player has better gear or not because their gear augments their skill. No matter what there is always a balanced point where a player who is more skilled with worse gear will be competitive with worse players with better gear. The only thing absolutely 100% mathmatically, philophically, inarguably, beyond any shadow of a doubt, no chance of being balanced is saying two people are competitive because they have equal gear.
You know what, there's open world PvP now. Go test it.
Problem is gear score is not a good way to judge a player.
A player could have 30K Gear Score and not fight on the points. That's not a good player.
They could lack and eye coordination and miss skill shots thus wasting rotations.
They could use a build which is better in PvE than PvP which will make them perform less effectively.
They may not use dodges and try to face tank or miss dodges that they do try t activate.
They could just be playing a class which does not fir their playstyle which will directly result how well they play.
Two people with equal gear score will not perform equally.
No suggestion based on gear score is a good one. Gear can augment a player's skill. It does not define it. Ever.
No amount of asking for it will ever change it. It's a fact. That's why matchmaking systems are required for games that do not vary in gear. Player skill is player skill. The gear can only help it.
What about classes that are not supposed to fight on points most of the time? Like ranged CW? Or classes that runs from point to point to help the pointholders? Is that why CWs/DCs are having a hard time climbing the leaderboards?...
ZengiaH@ejziponken
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Well part of the issue is what you just said there: No class is not supposed to fight on the point. If you are not on the point you are only helping slightly more than if you were in the base.
So yeah doing that will result in losses and drive your Elo and/or the Leaderboard Rankings down.
Try to get on the points as much as you can without dieing.
That's yet another example of how two equally geared players are not equally skilled. Better DC's and CW's will always try to get on the points every second they safety can.
Other than that, yes classes will play a role. Game companies try to make classes as balanced as possible but it never is quite right which is why it's in such a flux at every module. The strong classes/builds will end up to the top and the underperformers will end up at the bottom.
Well part of the issue is what you just said there: No class is not supposed to fight on the point. If you are not on the point you are only helping slightly more than if you were in the base.
So yeah doing that will result in losses and drive your Elo and/or the Leaderboard Rankings down.
Try to get on the points as much as you can without dieing.
That's yet another example of how two equally geared players are not equally skilled. Better DC's and CW's will always try to get on the points every second they safety can.
Other than that, yes classes will play a role. Game companies try to make classes as balanced as possible but it never is quite right which is why it's in such a flux at every module. The strong classes/builds will end up to the top and the underperformers will end up at the bottom.
You are kidding right? Why would a skilled CW get on point against a OP broken GWF when he can stay a bit further away and do the same damage and control? Getting the other team off the point is a win for the CW because they would bleed points. Getting on point and die is not very skilled and not good for the team.
If the classes had some balance, then maybe a CW would actually survive against a GWF, then we could fight on points with them. But there is no way you can actually think that a skilled CW wants to stand in melee range of a GWF.
I see now why the system is broken, you don't know how to play premades.
Edit: Even if a CW would try to stay on point as much as possible, they still wouldnt beat a real pointholder. That means we can never climb above them on the leaderboard. Also CWs dies more than tanks and that will also make us lose points because we have to run from spawn to the points much more often. This system sucks if you are a CW/DC and needs to be fixed. Rename the leaderboards to "Pointholder leaderboard" or something because its just a bunch of lies ATM.
ZengiaH@ejziponken
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Look at Mel's suggestion to improve point distribution.
Notice basically everything he wrote has to do with encouraging players to get on the nodes?
It doesn't matter if you don't die all match. If you do not contest nodes your team will not win.
Good CW's and try to and do contest points as much as possible. It take a lot more skill than staying far away but there are plenty of CW's and DC's who do this well and they are the ones who are further up the leaderboards.
There is nothing more frustrating to most more experienced players than having players fighting off the nodes. The nodes will make you win or lose. Sure it is nice if you die less but it's better if you at least buy time and make the enemy have to fight for the nodes.
I have literally stood on the enemy base fighting some CW's with my HR. It never ends well for them as I literally just work on ranging them and dodging their attacks while I steal their point in front of their eyes and then rush out and kill them anyway. If you are not standing on the base your enemy is taking you are not stopping them.
At least if they would have fought me on the base they would have delayed me from capturing it.
they'd have to change the name of pvp domination to pvp battle domination or something indicating that the fighting is not secondary to dominating base caps. i'd rather they add new and traditional pvp options than change the existing one.
But fighting is secondary to dominating base caps/contesting/capping. As the situation is now, your team does not benefit at all from kills. In most cases, it's better to let the opponent live, even though you know you could easily kill him, kite him off-point to another side of the map and then die there on purpose in order to come back with full HP (while points for your team are ticking).
I went in with my guild premade, everyone on alts with 2 - 3k (!!!) GS and 50 % mounts, and we completely destroyed the pugs (1000:30?) that were all 9k+. Sure, we couldn't kill anything (except 3v1). But we were much faster in capping. Once their zerg arrived at some node to clear it (and of course they all move together, so that everyone gets his useless +300), our team caps the other points and one teammate is already waiting behind the corner to step on the cleared point once they leave it. Why did no one stay there to protect it? Why did no one stay on the other two points to protect them? They could've easily taken us 1v1 or 1v2 in seconds? You know the answer.
It doesn't matter if you don't die all match. If you do not contest nodes your team will not win.
Good CW's and try to and do contest points as much as possible. It take a lot more skill than staying far away but there are plenty of CW's and DC's who do this well and they are the ones who are further up the leaderboards.
There is nothing more frustrating to most more experienced players than having players fighting off the nodes. The nodes will make you win or lose.
I have literally stood on the enemy base fighting some CW's with my HR. It never ends well for them as I literally just work on ranging them and dodging their attacks while I steal their point in front of their eyes and then rush out and kill them anyway. If you are not standing on the base your enemy is taking you are not stopping them.
No you are dead wrong. A CW is not suppose to contest the points in most cases. Thats the tanks job. a CW is suppose to run from point to point to help killing stuff and then run to the next point (the DC is doing the same but heals instead). We never stay to capture the points while our teammates are dying somewhere else (unless we are alone on the point).
BTW I'm talking about points that my team OWNS already.
But in all scenarios, a point holder will always be on a point more than a CW/DC and that's the problem, they will always have that advantage on the leaderboards and that needs to be fixed.
ZengiaH@ejziponken
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
All players should be contesting the points.
That's everybody's job.
I am sorry, you should ask some of the other more experienced PvPers. If you want to do well, contest the points. If you want to lose fight off the points.
If the enemy owns a point, stand on it. If the enemy is taking a point, stand on it (if less of them are on the point than your team they will not be able to take it).
If you own a point and the enemy is not on it do whatever you want. Just do not stand off of a point an enemy is taking or your team is trying to take. You will lose. Get on the points to contest as much as possible.
EDIT - The only thing a CW and DC shouldn't (in an ideal world) do is backcap. Leave that to a TR, GWF, HR or GF. But even that isn't a hard coded rule. There are still times when you can/should.
All players should be contesting the points.
That's everybody's job.
I am sorry, you should ask some of the other more experienced PvPers. If you want to do well, contest the points. If you want to lose fight off the points.
If the enemy owns a point, stand on it. If the enemy is taking a point, stand on it (if less of them are on the point than your team they will not be able to take it).
If you own a point and the enemy is not on it do whatever you want. Just do not stand off of a point an enemy is taking or your team is trying to take. You will lose. Get on the points to contest as much as possible.
EDIT - The only thing a CW and DC shouldn't (in an ideal world) do is backcap. Leave that to a TR, GWF, HR or GF. But even that isn't a hard coded rule. There are still times when you can/should.
I play in Enemy Team, what experienced players are you playing with? I rather fight off point as a CW as much as possible and win the match than stand on point and die fast and lose the match (again that is if we own the point already). The enemy always focus the CW first and thats why you want to keep the distance and if you have a tanky team-mate on point, you are not supposed to stay on point with him while fighting.
GS is not a factor on purpose, as gear will help you do better and thusly get a better skill rating. Its also not the end all of winning a match, point control is much more important. Depending on the time of the day, there may not be enough people in the queue to get a good rating match with. We are monitoring this and are considering adjusting things, but we dont want queue times to increase too much. Finally, premade vs premade: Players who do premades will win more often, giving them a better skill value, which means they are more likley to play against other premades and highly skilled (and likley geared) players.
The only thing that matters is that CWs/DCs are not point holders and therefor spend less time on points which makes the leaderboards unfair to some classes and that has to be fixed, otherwise the leaderboards are just a big joke.
I haven't played for full 12 hours and only dropped two positions, not even pages. If I go play now against pugs or a weak premade with my own premade and win (well, of course), I'll go down half a page.
Dismissing gear score out of hand ignores the players entirely. If you refuse to do at least consider gear score as a starting point, then what are you considering? Let me give you this scenario a "twinker" spends a month or three at level 40 builds up an enormous win counter. Then the "twinker" decides to level up while doing PVE, gets to sixty, still has an amazing ELO, but now has crappy gear, well I guess he deserves to go against the top ranked level sixties for a few months until he gets his gear right.
Level alone should not be a factor, or your going to get a very weak level sixty who just hit it, versus a very strong level 60 who hit six months ago.
Its been said that using weight classes as an example was a bad analogy, (i disagree but whatever), ok fine, lets stick with the chess analogy, Bobby Fischer is not sitting at the kiddy table. And every player in that tournament room knows his ELO and every other players ELO. It is not kept hidden from them, it is not some hidden metric that is impossible to discover.
You can not keep it all classified, when your players are frustrated they quit. End of story. Maybe thats the objective, though I would hope not. (And this is coming from someone who despises PVP). Arguing a suggestion is bad (with already broken arguments) and just saying "the current system works" while everybody, their brother, and their dogs do not believe it is working, is not only patronizing it is stupid.
Either explain how it is working when a 5 man GWF premade all with individual gs of over 18k gets a PUG with the highest gear score of 11k, is the correct metric, or continue to look like idiots, (or worse liars) to your players.
I challenge you to go back and read my last post on page six. Other than a simple dismissal out of hand for arguments that have already been broken. Explain to the players why that would be a bad suggestion. It is fair and attempts to take into all factors.
Or are you arguing for the sake of arguing.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
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waferthinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 13Arc User
No you are dead wrong. A CW is not suppose to contest the points in most cases. Thats the tanks job. a CW is suppose to run from point to point to help killing stuff and then run to the next point (the DC is doing the same but heals instead). We never stay to capture the points while our teammates are dying somewhere else (unless we are alone on the point).
Thank you!
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited June 2014
"GS is not a factor on purpose, as gear will help you do better and thusly get a better skill rating. Its also not the end all of winning a match, point control is much more important. "
This is very true. You get "pay to play" people with 17K GS that cannot even scratch their own butt in a match due to lack of experience, and teamwork.
I've also seen 9K GS people wipe the floor with the other team.
PvP maybe should be called PTvPT where "PT" is "Player Team". It's definitely not PMSvPMS.
Learn to work with the team you get, and you'll win more matches.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I went in with my guild premade, everyone on alts with 2 - 3k (!!!) GS and 50 % mounts, and we completely destroyed the pugs (1000:30?) that were all 9k+. Sure, we couldn't kill anything (except 3v1). But we were much faster in capping. Once their zerg arrived at some node to clear it (and of course they all move together, so that everyone gets his useless +300), our team caps the other points and one teammate is already waiting behind the corner to step on the cleared point once they leave it. Why did no one stay there to protect it? Why did no one stay on the other two points to protect them? They could've easily taken us 1v1 or 1v2 in seconds? You know the answer.
TY TY TY!!! Some would look at your example and say, "See, this is why GS should not be used as a metric." They would be wrong because as I pointed out the match should have NEVER happened. Premades and PUGS should never EVER compete against each other. I can see where a group like yours would have a very long wait though looking for another group in your division on my scale, but with a little creativity in the lfg channel, {speaking of why isnt there a pvp only channel???}, I am betting you could either find another group from your own guild or another pvp guild to accommodate you.
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The thing is, its a helluva better to have someone doing all those things and having 14k GS, rather than someone who does all that in 9k GS. Sure, we all know that as you slowly rise in ranks you meet more and more of those "bloated GS" people with the combination of:
[good gear] + [builds unsuitable for PvP] + [low PvP skill] + [headstrong egos that don't listen to suggestions from better players]
...
But even still, having a 14k GS 28k HP meatshield helps a lot more than the 9k 21k HP meatshields, if you get what I mean.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
But of course no one wants to do that. After all, part of the reason people play RPGs is to get progressively stronger, and for a large crowd of people, PVP is the way they test that increase in strength. Equality is not the goal it would seem.
Still, I do like the idea of equalization. But then people would just game the system, such that there's a way to be disproportionately powerful for your "handicap setting" (or whatever the terminology would be).
I'd say that going off win/loss ratio would be enough, but that's only true if the pool of PVPers is sufficiently large.
True, but that 28k meatshield is just a big hunk of meat getting torn apart by a buncha dogs without the skill to drive the dogs away, no?
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correct, but the 28khp meatshield has 7k hp on top of the 21k hp meatsheild.. so the 28khp meatshield has far more survivability thus stalling for the better players to get back
Elo is a skill level rating. It's goal is to match you up with players of equal skill.
Gear augments your skill. It does not define it.
So two players with the same score does not ever mean they are competitive. A bad player is a bad player. A good one is a good one. And players will either perform above or below the average player with their gear score.
A bad player will perform better with better gear but that does not mean they are competitive with similarly geared players. It means players will need to either be less skilled with better gear, equally skileld with the same gear or more skilled with worse gear to be competitive.
If you put a bad player against good players with similar gear score they will be torn to pieces every time.
If you put good players against bad players with the same gear score they will tear them apart every time.
The Elo System seeks to put a number on their actual performance level which includes their Gear Score because their gear effects their performance.
It's not a debate that can be won. Seriously. Gear score comparisons assume players perform equally. They don't.
Gear scores will never, ever be directly included into the equation. It's just a bad way to judge skill especially since just because a person has good gear doesn't mean they have a good gear set up.
Which is just another layer because not all gear scores are equal. You can stack anything to get high GS but it doesn't mean it will make you perform better. Any min/maxer can tell you that.
What uniform system of measurement is there? People say GS because it is there. We have nothing else. We have the mysterious elo which means nothing to anyone other than very slightly more even matches sometimes. If the same standards used to score individual performance during a match is any indication of the standards used in elo rankings, the system is hopelessly broken because individual scoring in a match is hopelessly tilted against actual winning behaviors.
Jugger Conq GF
....
There is the generally true assumption that a player with a character that has a high GS is more committed to his character than a player with a character that has low GS. People will argue that gear is all that matters. I argue against that, because there is a small percentage of new level 60 8k players that really care about their characters and are improving them. But the vast majority of 6k-9k level 60 players really dont care. It isnt obvious just from GS but from doing literally hundreds of matches with people in that range. They never made an effort to learn about pvp because you can see them doing exactly everything extremely wrong. Your not going to run into many 16k people in pvp who do most things wrong, let along everything.
That is why we say GS. It is all that we have to go by and it is a generally good indication of how much that player cares about being good at the game.
No one wants every single detail of the elo to be published. But something. Even the leaderboard is without numbered ranks. We want enough to know that it is actually a uniform, consistent system. Truth is always better than not knowing, because honestly even if the truth is bad, when people do not know it, they will imagine things far worse than the truth simply because it is all they have to go on. That kind of viral communal perception can be deadly to any kind of social networking system.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Gah! He doesnt need to drive the dogs away. He just needs to last long enough on the node for the dps to drive the dogs away. When I see a GWF in my pug with like 32k hp, full avatar gear, no tenacity at all, I am like "just keep going to node 2 and run around there and wave your sword around. No matter what, just keep doing that and we will be golden". That normally works great in a pug believe it or not, even with a totally pvp-brainless gwf trying to eek out his daily.
Jugger Conq GF
....
wow this is an amazing idea, please devs.. this is the change pvp needs! not those ridiculous 8s mounting timers!
they'd have to change the name of pvp domination to pvp battle domination or something indicating that the fighting is not secondary to dominating base caps. i'd rather they add new and traditional pvp options than change the existing one.
The way I see it, everything in PvP can be compared to competitive fighting sports -- wrestling, boxing, judo, taekwondo, MMA, whatever.
Skill is skill, obviously. However, gear/spec/stat is the equivalent of weight division. Every fighting sport acknowledges the difference between human performance based on physical conditions. In actual bouts/matches, the difference of a mere few centimeters in the arm's length/reach is considered a huge advantage. When somebody is taller and heavier, the scope and power of his physical being is considered as an innate advantage which lighter, shorter people find it quite impossible to overcome. In reality, provided similar skill level, a featherweight has no chance at all against a heavyweight. The power, the stamina, speed, everything is different.
Same with gear/spec. From time to time there may be instances where a very skilled person may defeat someone with higher GS. However, in reality, you are only as powerful as your build/GS. If there is someone who is at a certain level of skill, then there are always someone who is close to that level. When those two meet in the field, and when one of them is in a disadvantage in gear/spec, then that disadvantage will determine the fight.
Human skill level cannot be translated into mere numbers. Hence, every fighter/player must first prepare oneself as best as possible in objective elements of combat which CAN be numerically translated -- weight, height, stamina, power, reach, speed, etc etc.. and only after this preparation is complete, does 'skill' start to matter. This is the reason why fighting sports have weight divisions.
Under that premise, IMO low GS people -- no matter what their skill -- are ultimately in the featherweight division. People with high GS -- like it or not -- are in the heavyweight division. Sure, people with high GS may lose embarassingly to those with lower GS, but these sort of results are usually abnormal to begin with -- we first suppose the person with low GS is exceptionally talented, and then we suppose the guy with much higher GS is exceptionally stupid. Leave out these sort of abnormal "what-ifs" -- and always pertain to the average, most likely scenario.
And in that scenario, it is undeniable that the person with higher GS has higher chance of winning. Repeat again -- this is why they have weight division in real world fighting sports. Physical difference matters, and it matters big. Same with PvP -- the difference i "physical" -- stats / spec / gear -- matter heavily.
High GS does not necessarily mean that person is competitive. No doubt. But no matter how incompetent a fighter is, we don't put a heavyweight fighter in the same ring with featherweights. Competence or no, the level of basic preparation -- the 'physical' conditioning is different. It should be a factor in determining matches, for sure.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And when you talk about professionals, well that's just that. They are all at a competitive level where the bigger advantages come from their size. Thatis not the case in an MMO where a PvE player with 20K GS can queue for PvP for the first time and not only have a PvE build but simply be unprepared for the style of combat.
I seriously doubt anybody here is willing to argue that being a good PvE player means you will do well in PvP. It's just not true.
The thing is, in video games the "phsyical size" is hand eye coordination, tactics, playstyle...etc. Gear is not the physical size.
It's the players ability to fight against other players which matters. Gear helps that but it doesn't define that.
Again, when you disregard professional sports (bad analogy) and look to games where phsyical size is not the standard you'll find the Elo System and other similar set-ups. The Elo System was designed for chess. It is designed to judge a players skill. It's not perfect but it's fairly close and required for a game where the chances to win are defined by something which can not be judged any other way.
That is why the Elo System and similar set-ups were used to judge players in first person shooters. Can you really argue all people who pick up a FPS game can play a FPS equally well? No. Don't bother please.
Neverwinter has the added element of gear score but it follows the exact same principals. You can not say two players with equal gear are competitive. They are not. If a player with 20K gear score is being controlled by somebody with absolutely horrible hand eye coordination the same rules apply as a FPS or a chess match. They gear will make them hit harder or survive longer but it will not make them hit, make them dodge, make them survive. It will only improve their chances.
The Elo System will take people of comprable chances of winning and match them together. If a player has high gear score but is not a good player they will be matched up with higher skilled but less geared players that should be competitive regardless of the difference in gear.
And really...please...think it out. Look up the Elo System. Look up every FPS in the world. Look up every single Battle Arena Game.
They all match based on a system which attempts to judge player skill/competitiveness/chancetowin/whateveryouwanttocallit.
It's done. It works. And it works whether the player has better gear or not because their gear augments their skill. No matter what there is always a balanced point where a player who is more skilled with worse gear will be competitive with worse players with better gear. The only thing absolutely 100% mathmatically, philophically, inarguably, beyond any shadow of a doubt, no chance of being balanced is saying two people are competitive because they have equal gear.
You know what, there's open world PvP now. Go test it.
What about classes that are not supposed to fight on points most of the time? Like ranged CW? Or classes that runs from point to point to help the pointholders? Is that why CWs/DCs are having a hard time climbing the leaderboards?...
So yeah doing that will result in losses and drive your Elo and/or the Leaderboard Rankings down.
Try to get on the points as much as you can without dieing.
That's yet another example of how two equally geared players are not equally skilled. Better DC's and CW's will always try to get on the points every second they safety can.
Other than that, yes classes will play a role. Game companies try to make classes as balanced as possible but it never is quite right which is why it's in such a flux at every module. The strong classes/builds will end up to the top and the underperformers will end up at the bottom.
You are kidding right? Why would a skilled CW get on point against a OP broken GWF when he can stay a bit further away and do the same damage and control? Getting the other team off the point is a win for the CW because they would bleed points. Getting on point and die is not very skilled and not good for the team.
If the classes had some balance, then maybe a CW would actually survive against a GWF, then we could fight on points with them. But there is no way you can actually think that a skilled CW wants to stand in melee range of a GWF.
I see now why the system is broken, you don't know how to play premades.
Edit: Even if a CW would try to stay on point as much as possible, they still wouldnt beat a real pointholder. That means we can never climb above them on the leaderboard. Also CWs dies more than tanks and that will also make us lose points because we have to run from spawn to the points much more often. This system sucks if you are a CW/DC and needs to be fixed. Rename the leaderboards to "Pointholder leaderboard" or something because its just a bunch of lies ATM.
Notice basically everything he wrote has to do with encouraging players to get on the nodes?
It doesn't matter if you don't die all match. If you do not contest nodes your team will not win.
Good CW's and try to and do contest points as much as possible. It take a lot more skill than staying far away but there are plenty of CW's and DC's who do this well and they are the ones who are further up the leaderboards.
There is nothing more frustrating to most more experienced players than having players fighting off the nodes. The nodes will make you win or lose. Sure it is nice if you die less but it's better if you at least buy time and make the enemy have to fight for the nodes.
I have literally stood on the enemy base fighting some CW's with my HR. It never ends well for them as I literally just work on ranging them and dodging their attacks while I steal their point in front of their eyes and then rush out and kill them anyway. If you are not standing on the base your enemy is taking you are not stopping them.
At least if they would have fought me on the base they would have delayed me from capturing it.
But fighting is secondary to dominating base caps/contesting/capping. As the situation is now, your team does not benefit at all from kills. In most cases, it's better to let the opponent live, even though you know you could easily kill him, kite him off-point to another side of the map and then die there on purpose in order to come back with full HP (while points for your team are ticking).
I went in with my guild premade, everyone on alts with 2 - 3k (!!!) GS and 50 % mounts, and we completely destroyed the pugs (1000:30?) that were all 9k+. Sure, we couldn't kill anything (except 3v1). But we were much faster in capping. Once their zerg arrived at some node to clear it (and of course they all move together, so that everyone gets his useless +300), our team caps the other points and one teammate is already waiting behind the corner to step on the cleared point once they leave it. Why did no one stay there to protect it? Why did no one stay on the other two points to protect them? They could've easily taken us 1v1 or 1v2 in seconds? You know the answer.
The current score system rewards griefers.
No you are dead wrong. A CW is not suppose to contest the points in most cases. Thats the tanks job. a CW is suppose to run from point to point to help killing stuff and then run to the next point (the DC is doing the same but heals instead). We never stay to capture the points while our teammates are dying somewhere else (unless we are alone on the point).
BTW I'm talking about points that my team OWNS already.
But in all scenarios, a point holder will always be on a point more than a CW/DC and that's the problem, they will always have that advantage on the leaderboards and that needs to be fixed.
That's everybody's job.
I am sorry, you should ask some of the other more experienced PvPers. If you want to do well, contest the points. If you want to lose fight off the points.
If the enemy owns a point, stand on it. If the enemy is taking a point, stand on it (if less of them are on the point than your team they will not be able to take it).
If you own a point and the enemy is not on it do whatever you want. Just do not stand off of a point an enemy is taking or your team is trying to take. You will lose. Get on the points to contest as much as possible.
EDIT - The only thing a CW and DC shouldn't (in an ideal world) do is backcap. Leave that to a TR, GWF, HR or GF. But even that isn't a hard coded rule. There are still times when you can/should.
I play in Enemy Team, what experienced players are you playing with? I rather fight off point as a CW as much as possible and win the match than stand on point and die fast and lose the match (again that is if we own the point already). The enemy always focus the CW first and thats why you want to keep the distance and if you have a tanky team-mate on point, you are not supposed to stay on point with him while fighting.
Please take yourself and any other 4 players of the GAME against my team. I will show you what experienced players are.
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ambi is a volunteer mod and not a dev.
the only thing i am aware that a dev stated about this is that gear score is intentionally not part of matchmaking:
#1 Enemy Team PvP Devoted Cleric
Best rapper 2014
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#1 Enemy Team PvP Devoted Cleric
Best rapper 2014
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Level alone should not be a factor, or your going to get a very weak level sixty who just hit it, versus a very strong level 60 who hit six months ago.
Its been said that using weight classes as an example was a bad analogy, (i disagree but whatever), ok fine, lets stick with the chess analogy, Bobby Fischer is not sitting at the kiddy table. And every player in that tournament room knows his ELO and every other players ELO. It is not kept hidden from them, it is not some hidden metric that is impossible to discover.
You can not keep it all classified, when your players are frustrated they quit. End of story. Maybe thats the objective, though I would hope not. (And this is coming from someone who despises PVP). Arguing a suggestion is bad (with already broken arguments) and just saying "the current system works" while everybody, their brother, and their dogs do not believe it is working, is not only patronizing it is stupid.
Either explain how it is working when a 5 man GWF premade all with individual gs of over 18k gets a PUG with the highest gear score of 11k, is the correct metric, or continue to look like idiots, (or worse liars) to your players.
I challenge you to go back and read my last post on page six. Other than a simple dismissal out of hand for arguments that have already been broken. Explain to the players why that would be a bad suggestion. It is fair and attempts to take into all factors.
Or are you arguing for the sake of arguing.
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This is very true. You get "pay to play" people with 17K GS that cannot even scratch their own butt in a match due to lack of experience, and teamwork.
I've also seen 9K GS people wipe the floor with the other team.
PvP maybe should be called PTvPT where "PT" is "Player Team". It's definitely not PMSvPMS.
Learn to work with the team you get, and you'll win more matches.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
TY TY TY!!! Some would look at your example and say, "See, this is why GS should not be used as a metric." They would be wrong because as I pointed out the match should have NEVER happened. Premades and PUGS should never EVER compete against each other. I can see where a group like yours would have a very long wait though looking for another group in your division on my scale, but with a little creativity in the lfg channel, {speaking of why isnt there a pvp only channel???}, I am betting you could either find another group from your own guild or another pvp guild to accommodate you.
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